CONTENTS
Wednesday 22 November 1995
Subcommittee reports
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Présidente: Laughren, Floyd (Nickel Belt ND)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND)
*Bartolucci, Rick (Sudbury L)
*Crozier, Bruce (Essex South/-Sud L)
*Ford, Douglas B. (Etobicoke-Humber PC)
*Fox, Gary (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings/Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
*Gravelle, Michael (Port Arthur L)
*Johnson, Bert (Perth PC)
Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold ND)
*Leadston, Gary L. (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
*Newman, Dan (Scarborough Centre PC)
*Preston, Peter L. (Brant-Haldimand PC)
*Ross, Lillian (Mrs) (Hamilton West/-Ouest PC)
*Wood, Bob (London South/-Sud PC)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Boyd, Marion (London Centre ND) for Mr Laughren
Clerk pro tem/ Greffière par intérim: Mellor, Lynn
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1004 in committee room 2.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Vice-Chair (Mr Tony Martin): I call this meeting to order.
Clerk Pro Tem (Ms Lynn Mellor): We want to deal with the subcommittee report dated November 15 first, and then the subcommittee dated November 21. They're under your elastics.
The Vice-Chair: Dealing with the report of November 15 first, I'll read it into the record.
"Your subcommittee met on Wednesday, November 15, 1995, for the purpose of organization and to consider the selection of intended appointees for committee review.
"1. It was agreed that the subcommittee will meet on each and every Tuesday at 1 pm in room 228 while the House is sitting.
"2. It was agreed that the committee will meet on Wednesday, November 29, 1995, to consider the selection of intended appointees for committee review.
"3. Re the certificate of October 23, 1995, it was agreed that the following intended appointees be selected for review:
"Selections of the official opposition party -- none selected.
"Selections of the third party:
"Agency: Board of Parole (western region)
"Name: Gary McNaughton
"Time recommended for consideration: One half-hour
"Date for consideration: November 29, 1995."
There were no names put forward by the government party. Does somebody want to move the adoption of that?
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot): So moved.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Leadston moves adoption. Any questions or comments? All in favour?
Okay. Then we'll move on to the report of Tuesday, November 21.
"Your subcommittee met...for the purpose of organization and to consider the selection of intended appointees for committee review.
"1. It was agreed that the committee will meet on Wednesday, November 29, 1995, to consider the selection of intended appointees for committee review.
"2. Re the certificate of November 16, 1995, it was agreed that the following intended appointees be selected for review:
"Selections of the official opposition party:
"Agency: University of Toronto Governing Council
"Name: Paul V. Godfrey
"Time recommended for consideration: One half-hour.
"Date of Consideration: November 29, 1995
"Selections of the third party:
"Agency: University of Toronto Governing Council
"Name: John H. Tory
"Time recommended for consideration: One half-hour
"Date for consideration: November 29, 1995
"Selections of government party:
"Agency: Criminal Injuries Compensation Board
"Name: Celia Kavanagh
"Time recommended for consideration: One half-hour
"Date for consideration: November 29, 1995
"It was agreed that for the three above-mentioned selections, due to time restraints the research officer, Mr Pond, would not produce background material."
"4. It was agreed that a letter be sent to the House leaders requesting authorization for the committee to meet two days of each month that the House does not sit during the winter recess for the purpose of reviewing appointments to the various agencies, boards and commissions."
Hi, Peter. You've been replaced for this morning. You can never be replaced, I know.
Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): That's fine.
The Vice-Chair: Thanks, Peter. Would somebody move the adoption of that report?
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox): So moved.
The Vice-Chair: So moved by Mr Fox.
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): Mr Chair, I'd like to ask a question.
"It was agreed that for the three above-mentioned selections, due to time restraints the research officer, Mr Pond, would not produce background material." Why not?
Mr David Pond: The normal cycle in this committee is that we usually need about 10 calendar days between the subcommittee's selection and when the material goes out to you in your offices to produce the usual briefing papers. Those 10 days add up to about six or seven working days. That cycle was worked out on the basis of practice during the last House.
On a week-to-week, month-after-month, year-after-year basis, it's just not feasible, from the library's point of view, my point of view, to provide you with the high-quality, accurate and lengthy briefing papers that we usually provide for you when there's a two-week or a 10- to 14-day break between the subcommittee's report and the holding of the hearing. We tried it in the last Parliament early on and it just doesn't work, frankly.
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Mr Ford: I realize that, but if you're appointing somebody to certain committees or agencies and different things of that nature, you have to have a backgrounder on them, don't you?
Mr Pond: You'd have to ask the subcommittee.
The Vice-Chair: That's right, and we talked a bit about that. Logistically, it just isn't possible this time. I spoke to the clerk yesterday, and we may have to miss a meeting in order to get us back on the two-week cycle at some point in this whole exercise so we can get that background information.
Clerk Pro Tem: There is some information provided by the secretariat, which is the CV and the job description. You'll have that material but you won't have the background material which Mr Pond normally prepares on the agency itself.
Mr Ford: We're going to have the material after the fact or before?
Mr Bob Wood (London South): Mr Chair, it might be helpful for any members of the committee who need extra information to go to their representative on the subcommittee. I think we can be of some assistance in getting whatever information you need.
The Vice-Chair: For me personally and our caucus, we're going to go to our research team and ask them to do a little digging for us and getting some information in this instance. We're going to try and resolve this so that we do have the detailed background material on people that's usually presented.
Mr Ford: There are two names here I'm familiar with, but -- maybe I'm ignorant of the fact -- who is Celia Kavanagh?
Mr Pond: We've already mentioned the government does provide the biographical information about individual appointees. My understanding is that in the normal course of events, that would be sent to your office.
The Vice-Chair: You'll be getting it.
Clerk Pro Tem: That material is not provided until after the actual selections for review; otherwise, they'd be providing the committee with material on several thousand people over a given year.
Mr Bob Wood: The practical problem was that we couldn't get the thing going next week if we had to have the usual research we've had. You're quite right in saying we need more information, and we'll get you what you need.
Mr Ford: I just don't want to be nominating people I don't even know, have no background on. You could pick somebody off the street and bring them in and say they're nominated. It's the same situation. I think everybody would agree.
Mr Bob Wood: We'll get it for you.
Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I really appreciate the concern you're expressing, but I think it's important for us to remember that with people who have been appointed and have gone through the order-in-council process, there's already been a lot of work done by whichever ministry or by the secretariat in terms of doing some of that. It's not quite like picking somebody off the street. The people have already gone through some process, often an interview process, with the particular ministry that's involved. I understand your concern, but I think you need to know that some process has already happened.
Mr Ford: I've always been on committees and somewhere further down the road, somebody says, "Who nominated this person to the committee?" and everybody sort of hides in a closet: "Not me."
The Vice-Chair: Any other questions or comments?
Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Just one, Mr Chair, with regard to item 4, about meeting two days. Maybe we could get some ideas from the committee. Given that the months are bad, especially in northern Ontario with unpredictable weather etc, and flights -- you'll notice I said "flights" rather than roads, eh? -- what's the feeling of the committee about the two days being back to back? It would allow us some time to do work in the office. It would also be easier, logistically, for the appointees to be summoned to Toronto etc, rather than splitting them up. Any thought given to that?
The Vice-Chair: That's the plan.
Mr Bartolucci: That's the plan? Terrific, great.
Clerk Pro Tem: Because cabinet meets on Wednesday, the normal sitting days for that purpose are a Wednesday and a Thursday. The reason for that is that any certificates that come out of the Wednesday meeting of cabinet held during the week the committee is sitting then can be considered by the subcommittee Thursday morning and the selections can be made and tabled with the committee that Thursday. There isn't the need of the expense of a conference call to consider the selections of the subcommittee prior to the next meeting of the committee.
Mr Bartolucci: Thanks very much for that clarification.
Mr Bob Wood: I might say that it's the intention of the government members to make a recommendation to our House leader about what we think the committee should do. We're going to discuss that in the subcommittee and, hopefully, we might be able to make a recommendation of the subcommittee. We can all agree on what we think might be a good idea and give it to our respective House leaders; they can then take it from there and do what they want with it. But I would hope that the members of the subcommittee might get full input from their members. At the next meeting I think we're going to consider this. My hope would be that the committee, in the sense of the subcommittee, can make a recommendation to the House leaders and say, "Here's what we think would work for this committee."
Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): Just for the information of the committee -- it wasn't in the subcommittee because we haven't arrived at it yet -- there will be a request to the government, and I think the subcommittee will concur, for time as well for those boards, agencies or commissions that each of us chooses to bring before the committee in the intersession.
The Vice-Chair: Yes, we had agreed as a subcommittee to deal with that next week and make that request to the House leaders as well and bring it forward at the next meeting of this committee. You're right.
Mrs Lillian Ross (Hamilton West): Is there any possibility of getting the agenda to the committee ahead of time?
Clerk Pro Tem: Until yesterday's subcommittee meeting, because a lot of other things were being considered at the time, I didn't know how many reports would be coming forward. So that's why, this time. Normally, yes, you would have it in your offices by Monday, along with the package. It goes out on Friday, along with the package, normally. We're just trying to get this meeting together, just getting everything rolling, but we will get into a routine, I promise.
The Vice-Chair: All those in favour of approving the second report? Carried.
Just a couple of other small things: You've noticed that you have a copy of the latest version of the guide to agencies, boards and commissions that was requested at the last meeting. I want to thank David for that and the update with it, for doing that and having that for us. The sample Hansards that were requested are also there in your package. Some of you who wanted to see how the thrust and the parry went in previous committees can have a look at that.
Also, Lynn has included her business card. Ms Mellor is always conveniently handy and able to be contacted. You might want to take advantage of her availability and her expertise in this whole area.
The other request for information, which will come to you in due time, perhaps Mr Pond can speak to.
Mr Pond: The government has very kindly provided to me a list of all order-in-council appointments made to agencies, boards and commissions between June and October, when the certificates began to flow. I'll bring that to the meeting next week, if that's convenient for you.
The Vice-Chair: Is there any further business?
Mr Bob Wood: There are two brief things I'd like to speak to. I understand that our Chair is going to be going into hospital. I wondered if it might be in order to send something from the committee, flowers or something like that, just to indicate that our thoughts are with him.
The Vice-Chair: The committee itself, I'm told, does not have a budget for that kind of thing, but if the members themselves or somebody wanted to take some responsibility for that, I'm certainly willing to work with you on that, Bob.
Mr Bob Wood: I was thinking maybe $5 each and putting it in your hands to find out what he might appreciate and send it to him. I think it's important that he be aware that we're --
The Vice-Chair: I think it's really good of you to propose that, Bob, and I certainly would concur. Is that okay with everybody? Yes, okay. You and I will take care of that?
Mr Bob Wood: Why don't the two of us collect money before everybody leaves? One of us is going to have to run to the door, Tony. Don't let anybody out. Maybe we can leave it with you to determine what's the right thing to do. I think some recognition is important. Thank you. We're seeing a large flow of funds, at least from this side of the committee.
The second item I wanted to raise, Mr Chair -- thank you, keep it flowing -- is that I find this configuration to be a little difficult because we're looking at people's backs.
Clerk Pro Tem: This is an emergency room. We were supposed to be in room 228, but there were no desks up there; this was a last-minute emergency. This room is set up in this configuration because this room is too small to take the other configuration. When you're in here it's usually because you're at the bottom of the pile in committee room assignment or it's an emergency. Unfortunately, this is the only way this room can be set up.
Mr Bob Wood: I think where possible we should avoid this kind of configuration. I find it difficult.
Clerk Pro Tem: We do in all the other committee rooms. This is the only one where we're limited by the space.
The Vice-Chair: I always found it kind of frustrating too, in the last five years, this kind of thing.
Mr Crozier: I need the Chair's direction or perhaps the staff's assistance with a question. During the last sitting of the committee, there was a review of the St Lawrence Parks Commission, of which no report was made. Can you refresh my memory, and then what the procedure might be beyond that?
Mr Pond: You are quite correct, sir. This committee reviewed the St Lawrence Parks Commission in eastern Ontario; we travelled eastern Ontario in the fall of 1994. Lynn will correct me if I get this all wrong. There was -- I'm going to put it this way because we're on Hansard -- an issue that arose that was brought to the committee's attention, which the government of the day wanted to look at because it involved confidential issues.
The government of the day prepared a report on that, which was ready for the committee to look at at the very tail end of 1994. Then in the spring of 1995 -- and this happens inevitably every once in a while -- the committee just ran out of time and there was an election. There you have it. We just ran out of time, quite frankly. The same thing happened with the Council of Regents review, if you recall. We just never got around to finishing it off.
Mr Crozier: But in view of the fact that we have virtually a new committee, is there any way to draw that to a conclusion without going through, literally, the whole process again?
Clerk Pro Tem: It's a new Parliament, it's a new committee, it's a new session, it's new members. You would have to start from scratch.
Mr Crozier: That's unfortunate, because there was a lot of work done on it in both instances. What I'm kind of looking for in terms of direction is whether there is any way to make that data useful.
The Vice-Chair: The only recommendation I could make is that if we chose it as one of the boards, agencies or commissions we wanted to review this time around, I'm sure that information could be brought forward.
Clerk Pro Tem: Yes, there's nothing to prevent you from going back in the research if you chose St Lawrence Parks Commission to be reviewed again, nothing to prevent you from using any of the materials that were available as background material. But as far as taking that material without looking into the issue and coming to a conclusion, no. Because it's a completely new committee, that's not possible. You'd have to prepare your own report based on your own hearings and investigations.
Mr Crozier: Might I suggest that, having brought that to the committee's attention, there may be some of us who at least want to read it, and then who knows what might happen? Interjection: Read what?
Mr Crozier: The discussion is in Hansard.
Clerk Pro Tem: Yes, the Hansards of all the committees are available in the library.
Mr Fox: I think that's a fair statement. We should make use of it.
Mr Bartolucci: Mr Chair, can we direct staff to get us copies of the Hansard and distribute them to each of the committee members?
Mr Pond: Absolutely.
The Vice-Chair: No sooner said than done.
If there is no other business or questions, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. Anyone want to do that?
Mr Peter Preston (Brant-Haldimand): So moved.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Preston has moved a motion to adjourn. Carried.
The committee adjourned at 1025.