INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
JOAN TINGLEY
CONTENTS
Wednesday 23 March 1994
Intended appointments
Joan Tingley, Ontario Film Review Board
Bryan James Mackay, Provincial Schools Authority
Paul Fournier, St Lawrence Parks Commission
Perrie Rintoul, Huronia Historical Advisory Council
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
*Chair / Présidente: Marland, Margaret (Mississauga South/-Sud PC)
*Acting Chair / Président suppléant: Johnson, David (Don Mills PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East/-Est PC)
Bradley, James J. (St Catharines L)
*Carter, Jenny (Peterborough ND)
*Cleary, John C. (Cornwall L)
*Curling, Alvin (Scarborough North/-Nord L)
*Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East/-Est ND)
*Harrington, Margaret H. (Niagara Falls ND)
*Malkowski, Gary (York East/-Est ND)
*Mammoliti, George (Yorkview ND)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
*Witmer, Elizabeth (Waterloo North/-Nord PC)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Conway, Sean G. (Renfrew North/-Nord L) for Mr Bradley
Johnson, David (Don Mills PC) for Mr McLean
Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND) for Mr Waters
Clerk / Greffière: Mellor, Lynn
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, research officer, Legislative Research Service
A-617
The committee met at 1008 in room 228.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
JOAN TINGLEY
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition: Joan Tingley, intended appointee as member, Ontario Film Review Board.
The Acting Chair (Mr David Johnson): I invite Ms Joan Tingley to come forward and have a seat. Thank you for being with us today as an applicant for the Ontario Film Review Board. This interview process will be half an hour in duration. We invite you to say a few words at the outset to introduce yourself, and then the members will be asking questions of you.
Ms Joan Tingley: My name is Joan Tingley and I've lived in Peterborough for 25 or 30 years. I'm retired from my job as secretary and organizer for a union. Presently I do work, because I teach French immersion classes as a substitute teacher of French.
I'm quite involved in the community, although I've cut down my volunteer work. I used to be president of the part-time students' association, president of the Canadian Mental Health Association. What else did I do? I chaired the community response group for a couple of years. Now I'm looking around for something more challenging and interesting.
The Acting Chair: Thank you very much, Ms Tingley. The questioning will start with the official opposition party. We have about 10 minutes apiece.
Interruption.
Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): We've got to put up with all these different noises around here. That's the welcoming trumpet for you, Ms Tingley.
Ms Tingley: Thank you, Mr Curling.
Mr Curling: I too want to welcome you. You said you're looking at a challenging position, something challenging to do, and you have arrived into an area that poses a lot of challenges, needs boldness, and of course some of your former work would add to making this job maybe worthwhile for you.
I was reading the briefing notes, which talk about being sensitive to the community while judging and assessing films and the different things you have to do. Coming to this job, I presume you have a full understanding of what "community" means, especially in Ontario, now that we've changed. You hear all the nice, fancy words about the diversity of this community, and I hope we are sensitive to that. What could you say about that?
Ms Tingley: In terms of Peterborough, I personally am a member of the community in a peculiar way, by reason of the fact that I'm retired and Peterborough is a retirement community, but also by reason of my association with the younger people in the community. I spent two years in France with young students, so I feel as though I were tuned into their thinking and that I wasn't isolated as a retired person, sort of a little box. I do come out of that box, although I know what their concerns are.
If you've been reading in the press, Peterborough is really vociferous in fighting against any paintings or works of art or film or videos, so I feel that Peterborough may not be entirely representative, but it is representative of Peterborough, of course.
Mr Curling: That's the question I was going to ask you, if you feel that Peterborough is really representative of Canada, of Ontario, because the diversity --
Ms Tingley: You would have to say of Ontario, I guess, Mr Curling, because of the fact that there's a film board in every province, isn't there?
Mr Curling: I'm talking about Ontario. I'm just in Scarborough, a couple of miles away from you, and it changes dramatically as you move away from Scarborough to Oshawa, to Peterborough, in terms of community standards. You mentioned the young people. Lately Lyn McLeod has had a task force on jobs, and we've been listening to students and young people. One of the things they have been telling us is that we are not listening, that we keep telling them what it's all about, what standards, how to behave, that "No one is listening to us." I'm a bit concerned too that we don't force Peterborough community standards, which of course in Peterborough must be very high -- that that community standard is being enforced upon the other areas. Do you feel you are bringing that flexibility to this job --
Ms Tingley: I don't know whether you're talking about imposing standards on university students in Peterborough.
Mr Curling: The students, no --
Ms Tingley: Peterborough is a university city, but I have found in my association with the students that they bring their community standards with them when they come to Peterborough. You can think of them as a group separated from any community. They bring the standards of the cities they came from to Peterborough, and I think they enrich the city of Peterborough.
Mr Curling: How much do you know of the Ontario Film Review Board?
Ms Tingley: I just know what I have read. I have a paper which sets out their mandate, and I know it's been described as a very fractious board and that lately it has been under a lot of criticism because of what some people see as a liberalization of their policies.
Mr Curling: The former chair, Robert Payne, had some very direct criticism of how the board is run. Are you prepared in getting in there to make some of the changes he talked about? He's very concerned at the way the board is being run and how they assess community standards etc. Are you prepared to make those kind of changes?
Ms Tingley: I would say yes, I'm always in favour making changes if they're positive changes and if they're needed, but it would be very presumptuous of me to say at this time what changes should be made and if changes should be made, because I haven't been on the board and I don't know exactly how it works. I know what the ratings consist of. If changes are seen as desirable and necessary, then certainly I would support those changes.
Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): Ms Tingley, thank you for coming. You appear to be eminently well qualified for this task and I'm very pleased to have an opportunity to hear you this morning.
Just generally speaking, what are your views on the general question of standards, community standards, and what might be allowed on the screens of Ontario, since the board to which you are now being appointed has some considerable sway over those matters?
Ms Tingley: I would find some things absolutely unacceptable that should not be allowed, and one of those things would be child pornography, for instance. Violence: A lot of people seem to associate the things shown on the screen under the heading of sex, but they're really not sex; they're an exploitation of sexual practices, and to my mind they come under the heading of violence.
These are only my personal standards, Mr Conway, and I would have to be introduced to whatever the rules and regulations the board -- I almost said censor board, and that's supposed to be a bad word, isn't it? Wasn't that done away with some time ago? I would have to familiarize myself with what is acceptable but at the same time keep close to my own personal opinion about what is acceptable.
Mr Conway: I appreciate that. I'm somewhat younger than you are --
Ms Tingley: I'll admit that.
Mr Conway: -- and I guess I'm getting very old-fashioned in my early middle age, but I'm quite astonished, quite frankly, at what I see on television these days. I don't watch a great deal of television. I'm absolutely stunned.
Ms Tingley: My grandchildren are not allowed to watch television.
Mr Conway: I think it was the great John Milton who once wrote, 300 years ago, that a person had to experience a bit of vice to appreciate virtue. I've going to leave my friend from Mississauga to opine on that perhaps to a greater degree than I will.
You've indicated where your concerns are, but I also would be interested in knowing, what do we do at the film review board in Ontario, recognizing that we're in this incredible new world of megastations, that people can live in RR 1 Omemee and beam in just about anything? Where you do see the Ontario Film Review Board sitting in relation to what is clearly a global village and in terms of telecommunications now bringing fantastically wonderful and positive things and unprecedented trash and garbage?
Ms Tingley: Who did you quote from, Mr Conway?
Mr Conway: John Milton, in a famous piece.
Ms Tingley: Well, I'll quote from Plato, who said that if you fed on poisonous weeds you would grow to be poisonous. Perhaps that's your outlook of the trash, as you say, that we're subjected to. But what concerns me a lot, Mr Conway, is how much control do we have? How much control do we have?
Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): That's a very good point to start off with. You're going to be a member of a board, Ms Tingley, which is going to have or should have a lot of control, so I'm not encouraged to hear you ask the question about how much control we have. When you said you're opposed to child pornography, well, that doesn't enter into the debate because it's illegal, so you won't be classifying child pornography.
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It's not a secret, by any means, that I have had a tremendous concern for the last five years about what the Ontario Film Review Board has been doing and how it operates. We have very little time to ask you questions, and you're now being appointed to that board. How do you feel about viewing films at eight times the normal speed, reviewing material at eight times the normal speed?
Ms Tingley: I didn't know that was the practice, Mrs Marland. I would say that you could not make an intelligent assessment if you viewed something which was going at eight times the normal speed.
Mrs Marland: I appreciate your answer, and that's what I was hoping you would say. They do review the material at seven to eight times the normal speed with the volume turned off, and I've always said you couldn't tell whether it was rape or consensual sex if you didn't know what was going on.
You have quite an academic background in terms of where you've been working and your qualifications. I'm wondering if you're familiar with the studies that now exist, quite extensive professional studies about the correlation of violence against women with film violence and media violence. In this case I want to talk about film, which is the area of responsibility you're leading into.
This board has become very controversial in the last 16 months because of a motion it was dealing with about reducing the standards of what it would accept for classification purposes.
Ms Tingley: Excuse me, Ms Marland. Was that passed or was that --
Mrs Marland: It was passed by their policy committee or planning committee, whatever it was called. It went to the full board and it was passed, but because of the outcry from the public it wasn't implemented. I understand the board is going to look at it again. At least that's what Dorothy Christian told us.
If you had to vote on "acts which include bondage, ejaculation on the face and insertion of foreign objects," which is what was to be permitted, how would you vote?
Ms Tingley: On all of those?
Mrs Marland: On all of those or any of them.
Ms Tingley: Certainly I would object very strongly to those sorts of -- is there no delicacy left in the world, Mrs Marland? I want to get back to the fact that you said that these --
Mrs Marland: You would vote against those items being allowed to be distributed in material?
Ms Tingley: Yes.
Mrs Marland: Okay. You mentioned a group in Peterborough that's dealing with censorship in art forms, and recently in Toronto we've had this very controversial case of the artist depicting children in sex acts. There's a lot of material that gets classified by the Ontario Film Review Board that's very marginal, involving, if not children, people who are made up to look like children. This is a tremendous concern, especially with young girls. I'm just wondering if that kind of material is something that you feel should be prohibited or should be classified. That's one question.
Second, do you think the Ontario Film Review Board, in classifying films, has a responsibility to the public first or the industry that produces it first? The former chair, Dorothy Christian, believed that the first responsibility of the film review board was to the industry and has stated that publicly.
Ms Tingley: No. I don't agree with that. The industry is interested in making money. The thing that always puzzles me is how many people there are in our society who want to watch these aberrant acts, and why, if people are in the business of making money, they feel it necessary to produce them. I think our responsibility as a board is certainly to the public.
Mrs Marland: How will you establish your community standards? How will you go out to evaluate what the community standards are?
Ms Tingley: If you'll bear with me, this is a little story I'm going to tell you. For quite a number of months now Peterborough has been in an uproar over a painting which was shown in a very prominent place on a main street, George and Charlotte. It was a painting of a nude woman which was meant to depict the power of women, but a lot of people in the community saw it as obscene, as pornographic, and there was a huge hue and cry. The mayor went down and removed this from the window. I drew a parallel with that painting with what I imagine my work on the board would be, because it certainly was not suitable for family. You couldn't see it unless you were accompanied by an adult and it wasn't -- what's the other classification, Ms Marland?
Mrs Marland: There are about five classifications.
Ms Tingley: In moving this painting from this big window, I would imagine that it would be the same sort of thing as if we restricted it, because when it was moved, children couldn't see it. You had to pay. You had to go into that art gallery and pay to see it. I think that without the film board itself, Peterborough has managed to censor this, to review it, and to put it in its proper perspective, in its proper place in the community.
Mrs Marland: You're going to represent the community. How will you establish what the community standards are? For example, the judge who permitted lap dancing said that was the community standard, and that isn't a community standard, so I think we need to know how you will establish a community standard as a benchmark against which to measure your decisions on what films should be prohibited outright and what should be classified. And my colleague has a question.
Ms Tingley: Briefly, I can't see myself at this moment as having that much power without consensus, without consultation, without knowing more about it. I think I would be very presumptuous in telling you that I can make all these opinions without further study.
Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Waterloo North): I can certainly tell you my community doesn't support lap dancing. Those are not the community standards of Kitchener-Waterloo.
Ms Tingley: Nor does Peterborough.
Mrs Witmer: However, I want to get back to the issue of violence against women. It is being demonstrated that certainly media violence and everything else that's happening does have an influence, unfortunately, on violence. I introduced a private member's bill because what we're seeing at the present time is a proliferation of video games that do show sex and violence, and of course it's always the females who are being attacked.
What I intend through that private member's bill is to amend the Theatres Act and that would give the Ontario Film Review Board the power to classify the video games that are on the market at the present time. What would your opinion be?
Ms Tingley: I think that would be an excellent suggestion because it seems to be such a mammoth thing, and there seems to be -- again I'll have to use the word "control" because right now I guess a 12-year-old could probably go in and buy a video.
Mrs Witmer: Yes, the access is there. There are no guidelines whatsoever.
Ms Tingley: I think the acts of brutality against women are almost sickening.
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Mrs Witmer: I just have one other question. Who encouraged you or invited you to apply for this position?
Ms Tingley: My résumé was in the hands of the ministry and I was approached because at that time, and still now, Peterborough is a very contentious community, with letters on the editorial page. It is really good in a way that the consciousness of people is being raised and they are becoming more aware of the fact that there is still violence against women and still things which are unacceptable, according to their standards, being shown.
Mrs Witmer: Was there an ad in the newspaper for this position?
Ms Tingley: No, there wasn't, but the board has not gone without its fair share of publicity. Whether it's fair or not I don't know; notoriety, I would almost say.
Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): Welcome, Joan, to Queen's Park. Our paths have been crossing, I think, for the last 20-odd years in different ways. Obviously, I know very well the different things you've been involved in. I wonder if you could say some more about what in your background makes you a suitable person for this position. I know you mentioned that you travelled with students. I haven't done it for two years but I have done it briefly and I know it certainly does shake one's ideas up a bit.
Ms Tingley: It was an eye-opener to me when I first went to France with students and was there for a year, because students are described as, "Some of them are lazy," and "They just want to travel; they don't want to study." I was with a group of 22 young men and women and I found that they were encouraging me in my work and they didn't fit this stereotype of students as very careless. They were all very dedicated, hardworking students and had very high standards.
I was sort of like a house-mother. I think that was one of the reasons I was encouraged to go over, but they actually inspired me. So I feel that my association with younger people and with every member of the community at different levels of education and socioeconomic levels makes me suitable for this sort of a --
Ms Carter: So you've had different jobs, some involved with young people, some not, and you've raised several children as well.
Ms Tingley: Right.
Ms Carter: This whole business of community standards and what's permissible seems to be the nub of the problem that people on the film review board have to face. You did raise the question of this picture and also whether Peterborough is representative in this kind of way.
I think this picture does raise a question, very clearly, because normally when we say that something is objectionable, we say it's because there's an exploitation of sex or that somebody is being degraded or that it's dehumanizing in some way. In the case of this picture, that was not the case, because actually it was part of Women's Week celebrations and it was meant to express female power and how wonderful it is to be a woman. So obviously there was a clash there between what you might call artistic expression and people's desire to give artistic form to feelings and beliefs they have that they want to propagate in that way and the fact that it was a nude woman, although it wasn't in any way --
Ms Tingley: Pornographic.
Ms Carter: It wasn't terribly realistic, no.
Ms Tingley: Well, it had to be explained to me. I didn't understand it. I think what the legal body which set up these standards described as undue exploitation and also harmful to the community -- while I personally did not think this painting was harmful to the community, it was seen by the majority of the good people of Peterborough as harmful to the community.
Ms Carter: So it failed the test of community standards, in other words.
Ms Tingley: Yes, that's right. It did, yes.
Ms Carter: Although, as I think you suggested, there are other things that might seem to some people to be much worse.
Ms Tingley: At the same time that all this hue and cry was going on, they were licensing a strip club. So there you go.
Ms Carter: Yes. How do you stay in touch with community standards? How, as you're on this board and time unfolds, will you feel that you know what community standards are and what standards should be imposed?
Ms Tingley: I don't think you can impose standards. In Peterborough they are really determined that they know what their standards are and they're going to follow them, and I admire them for that. But I do think I am in touch with a great many people, young and old and, as I said before, in all walks of life, so I'm pretty well clued in to the pulse of Peterborough.
Ms Carter: Obviously, there are very different elements in the population so there would be several different standards, as it were, operating at the same time among different groups.
Ms Tingley: Yes, and in great conflict.
Ms Carter: Would you say that the most strict level, the people with the lowest tolerance, are the ones that you would go along with, or how do we solve this problem?
Ms Tingley: No, I wouldn't. I think one has to be very diplomatic, but I watched city council meeting the other night, where it was discussing this painting and whether it should be exhibited and whether the mayor had done the right thing in threatening to refuse funding. I thought the language that those councillors used was obscene and I thought it was objectionable. They said that the art community was arty-farty, that the people exhibiting the paintings were harpies, and they used all sorts of language which I found distasteful, and yet I still have to keep in mind that the majority of those people did not want that painting. They did not want their tax dollars going to fund this organization. They may have been mistaken, or I'm mistaken, but they have a perfect right to that opinion.
Ms Margaret H. Harrington (Niagara Falls): You mentioned you found city council meeting distasteful --
Ms Tingley: No --
Ms Harrington: No, part of what was going on, part of what was being said.
Ms Tingley: I don't want that to go back to Peterborough, by the way, Margaret.
Ms Harrington: Oh, I'm sorry. I just want to ask you, whatever led you to put your résumé forward? Why would you want to be part of viewing these films, at whatever speed they go? What actually prompted you to put your résumé forward in the first place?
Ms Tingley: I had applied for a position on the board which dealt with children and the teaching of French. When my résumé went through the system, I was seen as representative of the community in other ways and I was asked if I would consider this appointment.
Ms Harrington: So you were actually asked to consider the film review board.
Ms Tingley: Yes, I was. At the time, as it has been for some years now, or at least for a year that I'm aware of -- it is a very contentious board, as you know, and it seemed sort of a challenging position. Some years ago, when I was the president of the Canadian Mental Health Association, we did one of the first briefs for presentation to the study on violence on television and the effects of violence, so I had been introduced to it. I had a certain amount of knowledge, but I've got a lot to learn.
Ms Harrington: I think it will probably be quite an experience, I'm sure. So you would look at it as a public service --
Ms Tingley: Yes, I would.
Ms Harrington: -- on your part, to be going through this, probably, ordeal that you will be going through. I just wanted to point out to you that in the city of Niagara Falls, a women's group has made a video of local women, to give voice to the feelings of local women about the impact of pornography and violence on their lives. I would just commend it to you if you do have time to watch that.
Ms Tingley: Yes, I'll read that, Margaret, because that's what I'm doing now; I'm sort of studying.
Mr Conway: You know, it's not long ago, I was saying to the member from Waterloo, when I was first elected here, the chairman of the then censor board used to have a night at the Royal York Hotel and invite members -- I was invited but never went -- and you got to see a film of all of the outtakes.
The Acting Chair: We thank you, Mr Conway, for that little bit of history, but I think we should move on.
Mr Conway: I'm not condoning it.
Ms Tingley: Was this before dinner?
The Acting Chair: Again, I would like to thank you very much, Ms Tingley, for being with us today.
Ms Tingley: Thank you for having me.
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BRYAN JAMES MACKAY
Review of intended appointment, selected by government party: Bryan James Mackay, intended appointee as member and chair, Provincial Schools Authority.
The Acting Chair: Mr Mackay, I think you're somewhat familiar with the procedure now. If you would just take a few seconds at the beginning to introduce yourself, then each of the caucuses will have some questions of you.
Mr Bryan James Mackay: My name is Bryan James Mackay. I'm currently employed by the Ministry of Education and Training as the team leader for support services. That responsibility includes the administration of the Ontario student assistance program and various college and university accessibility issues. I've previously held positions in the ministries of Colleges and Universities, Community and Social Services and Health.
Mr Conway: I think people should know -- Jamie can correct -- this is an internal appointment. I don't know whether you do this very often in this committee, but this is an internal appointment. This is done not by the government; this is done by the deputy. Jamie is a public servant. As long as people understand that.
The Acting Chair: We'll take that into account.
Mrs Witmer: Thank you very much. I questioned why he was here, since it was an internal appointment.
The Acting Chair: I apologize. I was assuming we were following the regular rotation, but apparently it's the government's turn. I don't know how that happened exactly.
Mrs Witmer: Oh, because they're the ones who asked him to come here. Okay.
Mr Gary Malkowski (York East): I was reading your résumé, and I noticed one area that could be, say, missing from the résumé: your knowledge of the issues of blindness, deafness and learning disabilities. Are you familiar with the provincial and demonstration schools project team and the work it has been doing in developing the three options in terms of restructuring?
Mr Mackay: Well, I have not --
Mr Malkowski: I can give them to you quickly. The first option is to keep the provincial and demonstration schools underneath the ministry; the second is to transfer them to the local board, which would be responsible for running the schools; and the third option that is being discussed is to establish a provincial agency or board that would be at arm's length from the government. I'm just wondering what you already know and what your comments would be about the restructuring that's already under review.
Mr Mackay: I am familiar with the review, although I am not directly involved in conducting it. I think that the decision in terms of which one of those three options the government pursues really should be on the basis of how we can best provide educational opportunities for the students in those schools. I know that a final decision hasn't been made in that regard.
I've become familiar with the operation of the schools over the last number of months because I've been sitting in on the Federation of Provincial Schools Authority Teachers, which is the provincial school teachers' association, and the ministry's management side on its joint employee relations committee meetings and have learned about the issues in that way. I've also been involved in some of the former Ministry of Colleges and Universities work on the Review of the Educational Programs for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students in Ontario.
Mr Malkowski: Could you review what you were saying you had learned from the deaf education review? Could you make any comments?
Mr Mackay: I think we learned a number of things in terms of not just the opportunities that are provided through our provincial schools, but more importantly what services are provided when students move on to the post-secondary level. We learned that there were people who wanted to establish a centre of excellence, so to speak, where we would concentrate services for those students, and others who believed we should really move to accommodate them at all our schools. It's that second approach that we've been pursuing up till now. I think we will continue to do that, acknowledging that there are some centres, like George Brown, where we might be doing better than at others, but we really do need to ensure that there are opportunities for deaf students, for example, to pursue their studies at any of our post-secondary institutions in the province.
Mr Malkowski: Just one more question regarding FOPSAT: Are you familiar with the recent court decision and would you perhaps comment what you feel if FOPSAT would want to join another union? Are you, first, familiar with the issue, and then would you be able to make some comments?
Mr Mackay: I'm not certain about what court case you're talking about. It is my understanding now that FOPSAT is affiliated with the federation of teachers.
Mr Malkowski: The case is the Ontario Court case where the court ruled in favour of the government. It was a court decision versus the Ontario government. Are you familiar with that?
Mr Mackay: I'm not.
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): In terms of the authority and its mandate and, at this point in time, the approach to providing education for a specialized group of students in need in the province and the question of the geography, being from northern Ontario, I certainly have a real concern. At this point, we ship our kids from a very early age down to southern Ontario for their education, if that's the choice parents make for their children. I have to tell you that from some personal experience and also from talking to a lot of people in the north, this is something they choose to do sometimes almost as a last resort. As a matter of fact, whole families often relocate because there's nothing in the north.
What would your response be to that? Do you have any idea on how we might be more accommodating to folks in northeastern and northwestern Ontario?
Mr Mackay: I appreciate this is a real problem for some families. I live in Milton and there are a number of families that live there precisely because of the E.C. Drury School that's located there. I think that to the extent we possibly can, provide choices for families; that is, a choice of attending a school which is designed specifically for those students or the choice of trying to integrate into another classroom in their home area. I'm not sure what the answers are, given the fiscal constraints that we all know we're operating under. I hope the results of the current review go some way to dealing with that. There are other models, and perhaps if one of the other models was pursued, there could be opportunities to look at that kind of thing. I just don't think there's an easy answer to that one.
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Mr Martin: The recommendation made in the review I chaired over the last couple of years was that there be some provincial school presence in the north. Right now any provincial school presence comes out of the south and into the north and back home again, and we ship our kids down. I guess you've probably already answered that question.
Have you given any thought to what that kind of presence might be, given the fiscal constraints that we're under and the geographic limitations? I don't think it would be conceivable to begin to develop or build a provincial school, for example, in northwestern or northeastern Ontario. The expense would be quite large. Maybe you've already answered this, but have you given any thought to any other model or way of delivering service in the north other than what's there now?
Mr Mackay: I don't know of any other considerations outside the reviews that are going on to serve these students from the north. I personally don't have any other suggestions or ideas that we could pursue to help those students.
Mr Martin: But you would be open to that discussion?
Mr Mackay: Yes, certainly. The ministry and whoever will continue to have responsibility for those schools will have to continue to deal with that question.
Mr Curling: Mr Mackay, thank you for coming before us. Your work and your ability are well known I presume now to all three governments. You have worked with all three governments.
Maybe you could help me, because I am trying to understand this as I go along. Maybe you could just inform me what is happening. As I notice here, in 1975 they said the amount of teachers in that area in which you are was almost 750 or 749, somewhere around there. Today that number has been reduced considerably, almost to half or less than half, to 305. With things in place now to identify people with learning disabilities and define people who are blind and who are deaf -- it's much more sophisticated now to identify that -- I'm quite concerned that therefore students in those areas will have grown in numbers but teachers have decreased. Is there anything being done now to increase teachers? With all these cutbacks that are happening, do you find it's affecting that area dramatically?
Mr Mackay: I can only speak from my experience during the short time I've been sitting in on these joint employee relations committee meetings. It's my understanding that the small reductions that are taking place or are planned to take place in the teaching staffs, say for the next school year, are based on declining student numbers and reduced classes. I don't actually have with me historical data with respect to enrolment levels and teacher levels to have an idea whether the ratio has significantly changed. In your reference to the fiscal difficulties that we're all faced with, if there has been a reduction for reasons other than a reduction in the number of students, I think that must be the explanation.
Mr Curling: You may be right. You are more familiar with those statistics, but it concerns me, though, that as I visit most of the schools, teachers are telling me they're identifying more people with disabilities. So I thought that would be growing. I know there's a decline in enrolment overall, but I didn't realize it had such a great impact on those people within that area. Am I understanding that you are saying there's also not only a reduction in enrolment but a dramatic reduction in those people with special needs? Because we want those special-needs teachers to be there.
Mr Mackay: I believe there has been some reduction in the number of students at the schools that are run by the Provincial Schools Authority, that is, the ministry's schools for the deaf and blind and the demonstration schools, which are the ones that relate to the Provincial Schools Authority.
Mr Curling: I have no other questions. I just want to wish you all the best in your endeavours.
Mrs Witmer: We're quite happy with Mr Mackay's appointment and the responses he's given and we have no further questions.
The Acting Chair: Thank you, Mr Mackay, for being with us today. I sense that the brevity of the questions is a tribute to yourself.
PAUL FOURNIER
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition: Paul Fournier, intended appointee as member, St Lawrence Parks Commission.
The Acting Chair: Thank you for being with us, Mr Fournier, and thank you for being early. We would offer you perhaps half a minute or so just to introduce yourself, say a few words and then the committee members will ask you questions.
Mr Paul Fournier: My name is Paul Fournier. I am a lawyer practising in the city of Brockville. I live on the Thousand Island Parkway, which is about 15 miles west of the city. I've practised there for almost 30 years. I have had a fairly good record of public duty, providing my services to the public over the years. I know you have a résumé in front of you which indicates that. I was asked to submit my name for this position by the chairman of the commission and have done so.
Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): Welcome to the committee, Mr Fournier. You had mentioned your CV. I browsed through it and I was very impressed. I am sure that as a former alderman and as a member of the chamber of commerce and many other groups, you will have the same interests that we have as elected people. I know in eastern Ontario there is a lot of concern about some of the things that are happening at the St Lawrence Parks Commission, especially the closed parks.
This government says it supports partnership with the private sector to boost tourism and I would like your views. We have private investors who are ready to inject capital into those closed parks. I know many have been into my office. They want to hire students. They have a deadline to meet for this year as of April 1. If something doesn't happen, it's going to be difficult. They want to employ students, which we need so badly in our part of eastern Ontario. They want to pay the parks commission a percentage of revenues. We have very high support from the municipal councils, the chambers, the united counties and the public at large.
I have some difficulty with those parks being closed, because just last year I was called out to the entrance to the parks where we had OPP officers turning tourists around. They couldn't get into the existing parks and I have a lot of difficulty with that. I guess I would like your views on the situation, sir.
Mr Fournier: First of all, I have to tell you that my knowledge of the workings of the commission as such is quite general and I certainly do not have enough detailed information to deal with that question specifically. In general, the comments you have made are quite reasonable. I think it's quite a reasonable proposition that if we have parkland, it should be used for that purpose, all other things being equal. However, I would wish to be more fully informed of the considerations related to those issues, which I must admit I'm not prepared to deal with.
Mr Cleary: I'll just tell you, Mr Fournier, that I'd be delighted to send you a package of material on the background and the investors who are ready to invest money. I have before me a letter here. I understand the minister has put Dan Waters, parliamentary assistant, in charge of getting those parks opened and some of the issues at the St Lawrence Parks Commission.
I have a letter here dated October 5, last year, from a Mr Roger Haley, who was very supportive of getting these parks open. To my knowledge, there isn't anything being done with Dan Waters and the minister on this, because we've had municipal councils, we've had lots of support, we've had private investors up here, and absolutely nothing has happened. I find that very, very difficult.
I've got a lot of rambling to do here, but I want to briefly tell you and then I'd ask for your comments. I understand from what I've heard that successor rights could be a problem. We've researched the situation on two of these parks and it's my understanding that all the employees who were there are accounted for at the moment and all working who want to work except possibly two. So that's a pretty lame excuse for me. I'd just like your comments.
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Mr Fournier: I certainly appreciate that you're putting forward probably one of the most significant issues that's outstanding at the present time. I repeat to you, however, that my knowledge of the details of the working of the commission is not adequate to deal with that question. I expect that if I am appointed to the commission, that will be one of the major issues we'd be digging right into. That would be my position in any case.
Mr Cleary: Do you think when you're on the commission, and I'm sure you will be, because I think you'll play a valuable role there, you would consider this one of your priorities when you get there?
Mr Fournier: Yes, sure, I would.
Mr Cleary: I'm going to mention that a few other things you may face that I face weekly are some of the complaints that we have, and I'm sure you will have them too shortly, that the commission has been downsized by approximately 150 workers where management has only been reduced by two.
Mr Fournier: I guess the obvious inference is that management should be looked at as well.
Mr Cleary: We're also told from numerous visitors I get in my constituency office that the commission management shifts people around or reclassifies to avoid layoffs.
The other thing that you're going to be hit with is leasing vehicles that are leased on a year-round basis and only probably used six months of the year.
Mr Fournier: If that is all there is to it, it certainly sounds very wasteful and I certainly wouldn't support that kind of procedure.
Mr Cleary: I guess you get to the dollar on everything any more; that seems to be the bottom line. We understand that visitors dropped from 260,000 in 1988 down to 190,000 in 1993. I know you were a former alderman, and the other committees you've been involved in. What do you think would be the best way to get that attendance back up? You must have some idea on promoting eastern Ontario. I'm sure you do.
Mr Fournier: That's a pretty difficult question to answer, sir. I would attribute some of those numbers possibly to the economic situation of our country. However, in so far as promoting tourism is concerned in specific programs in those areas, I really can't offer you anything.
Mr Cleary: Do you think there are any other roles the private sector could play in the parks commission?
Mr Fournier: I read in the supporting material that the Chrysler Park area had possibilities for certain private partners in the waterfront development and the dockage facilities there. I'm not personally aware of those facilities, but if there is an opportunity for a private partnership which would be positive, I would support that.
Mr Cleary: As a new member, I'm sure you -- anyone who goes on a committee, as I have many times, always has a bit of an agenda, some initiatives you'd like to pursue.
Mr Fournier: I can't tell you that I'm full of great aspirations or have any preconceived notions about how I will serve. I think I have the capacity to provide some leadership, and, as in all community services such as this, there is quite a demand for some positive leadership at this time because of many of the issues you've mentioned yourself. I look forward to that challenge.
Mr Cleary: And I'm sure you will do a good job. You said one of your priorities would be to try to get this issue resolved on the closed parks. I know we could bring in a lot of visitors from out of this province. I've been in contact with many from Quebec who would like nothing better than to come into Ontario and lease these campsites at the Raisin River park, which is a beautiful park. It's been abused as it is because it's been used by the smugglers; there's been a lot of damage. I find it unacceptable that an agreement can't be worked out to get those parks open, and I have to lay some of the blame on the government. There's got to be the political will to do it. Dan Waters is in charge of that, and I was hoping he would be here today. I'm really disappointed he's not.
Mrs Witmer: It's a pleasure to have you here, Mr Fournier. I'd like to take a look at the issue of visitors and tourism to this province. Obviously, that's one of the things we'd like to see increase, but things such as high prices and taxes are certainly having a negative impact. Would you comment on the impact of those particular factors, the taxes and the prices, on the number of visitors and the income that might be obtained? What could you do to make the parks more attractive to the tourist?
Mr Fournier: Again, I don't think I can give you a specific answer. I agree with you that possibly the attendance at the parks has reduced because of the cost of travelling and entry etc to the parks. I'd certainly have to examine more detail of how the parks actually operate and any ways it could be made more open to people from a cost point of view.
Mrs Witmer: Do you have any suggestions as to cost-effective measures that could be introduced? Is there anything specifically that would come to your mind?
Mr Fournier: I haven't got the detailed knowledge that would be required to answer that right now.
Mrs Witmer: What originally led to your interest in this particular commission?
Mr Fournier: I live in the Thousand Islands Parkway, first of all. It's logical, I suppose, that I'd be interested in the parks. The chairman of the commission called me and asked me if I'd be interested in putting my name in. It's as simple as that. I have no particular agenda, as has been referred to, nor have I a lot of detailed knowledge of the way the parks operate.
Mrs Witmer: I do have the impression that you're quite willing to learn what has been done and become involved in further discussions.
Mr Fournier: Yes. I think the issues are quite typical. I'm sure I understand the issues, and I appreciate there's an urgent need to deal with them. I intend to do so.
Mrs Witmer: Do you see an expanded role or an additional role for the private sector to play?
Mr Fournier: The brief information I have suggests that the private sector is interested. Because of the difficulty of management and the cost of operating these parks, it seems logical that if the private sector could be included, if it could add some efficiency, if it could add some new lustre to what's going on, it might help in making the parks more inviting to the public. Therefore, the numbers would increase and the efficiency should increase and use of the park should be expanded.
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Mrs Witmer: It's unfortunate that some of the parks have been forced to close in past years and that I guess we're going to see an increase in that happening in the future, because for many people they do provide a form of recreation, an inexpensive form as well. Is there anything you would particularly like to pursue? Is there an area of interest, any policy initiatives you feel you'd like to get involved in?
Mr Fournier: I'm just going to pick up on what's been said and tell you that I don't think in principle that it's a good idea that the parks are sitting there idle. I certainly think that is a top priority. That's one issue that's publicly known, for sure. I'm sure there are other issues relating to cost preservation and efficiencies that would be maybe a second item. Third, it looks like some new dynamic should be inserted into the program, and if the private sector is prepared to participate on a proper basis, that's another kind of thrust I could entertain.
Mrs Witmer: Thank you very much. I wish you all the best in this endeavour.
Ms Harrington: Thank you, Mr Fournier, for coming all the way from Brockville. I'm particularly interested because I know what a beautiful part of the country that is. I'm sorry Mr Waters is not here with us, because he is with the Ministry of Tourism and it would be really appropriate to hear his reply or questions to you.
I grew up in Brockville. Actually, my wedding reception was right there, near Mallorytown. I think it's Rockport, by the Thousand Islands bridge.
I want to talk about two things, first of all, the vision for tourism and for developing that part of the country. I now represent the city of Niagara Falls, and our government is very much involved with tourism in our area and also across the province, trying to bring tourism into a new partnership with the private sector and bring tourism into a new era, especially in the Niagara area, so that we link together the divergent partners. We have the Welland Canal system, the historical battlegrounds and of course the scenic areas and also the entertainment part of tourism. Normally, entrepreneurs in the past just looked out for what their particular business was without, sometimes, linking together and really having a vision for what the visitor wants.
Your role in this commission, similar to the Niagara Parks Commission in my area, is very important. As you know, the Niagara Parks Commission was formed 100 years ago to protect the natural beauty, the public interest of the citizens of Ontario. Now we're looking at the private sector as well.
You may know that the Niagara Parks Commission makes money for the province of Ontario. Obviously, the St Lawrence Parks Commission does not, according to the statement I've seen. I wanted to go into the finances as well as the vision. According to this, it's $14 million in excess, expenditures over receipts. First of all, does that money come from the public purse of Ontario to cover those expenditures?
Mr Fournier: I assume it does.
Ms Harrington: I assume it does too. Financial restraint is what's been happening. We've heard that in terms of parks being closed. We're talked about how you could be cost-effective as well as enhance what you have there, which is a natural treasure. What are your suggestions for making something cost-efficient and yet developing those lands?
Mr Fournier: All I can really do is re-emphasize the two or three points made earlier. It's indicated that some new initiatives should be taken. The introduction of private sector partners sounds like a logical type of initiative. In terms of the view you've expressed of a more global approach to the entire area, why it isn't as cost-effective as other areas evidently are and the entire tourism partnership between all the private sectors and the public sectors, if that is not being examined and being considered, it certainly should be.
Ms Harrington: I see eastern Ontario and the Cornwall area as a gateway to the province, and that should be developed. The whole Seaway parks area is a ribbon which introduces people to the province, and hopefully we want them to stop and enjoy it, not just travel right by. I think the commission has to look at, how can you generate more revenues, and how can you work together with other attractions in the area for the motorist to stay there or as a destination? Have you any suggestions about generating more revenues?
Mr Fournier: Not as such. It's just that the opportunity seems very significant for partnerships with the private sector I'm aware of, the boat lines and the various private activities that go all along the St Lawrence River, as well as the connection between Canada and the United States. There are a lot of complementary activities, from a tourism point of view, that go on there every day, particularly in the summer. There are a lot of logical reasons this should be a very dynamic tourism area.
Ms Harrington: You don't feel it is dynamic?
Mr Fournier: I don't know why it isn't being recognized in dollars and cents. To the general public it looks very dynamic, but maybe there's something wrong.
Ms Harrington: You really have a treasure there, and I'm hoping you could extend it to more of a year-round thing. I know Dan Waters is specifically interested in snowmobiling and how much money that can bring to communities.
The Acting Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Fournier, for being with us, and for being early. We appreciate the fact that you answered all the questions that were posed to you.
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PERRIE RINTOUL
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Perrie Rintoul, intended appointee as member, Huronia Historical Advisory Council.
The Acting Chair: Mr Rintoul, perhaps you could just indicate your name and a brief introduction, and then each of the caucuses will have some questions of you.
Mr Perrie Rintoul: My name is Perrie Rintoul. I've been a long-time resident of Huronia in Midland, Ontario. I've been a history teacher at Midland Secondary for something like 27 years. I know the area quite well, that is, the old area of Huronia, not just the area which the Huronia advisory council will be dealing with: Sainte-Marie, and now Discovery Harbour, which has taken the place of the naval and military establishment.
I have had a fairly broad background in history. I've done considerable reading in that field, and I have taken students on many trips, not only to Quebec and parts of Ontario but also to the United States, so I'm familiar with the problems and the requirements in doing that.
Mrs Witmer: Welcome, Mr Rintoul. You certainly appear to be eminently qualified to sit on the advisory council, as I take a look at your background. What do you expect from this appointment to the advisory council? What would you hope to be able to achieve?
Mr Rintoul: I haven't been very much involved with activities there, but it seems to me that the council is moving very dynamically. Everybody in our own community is stirred by the great festival we're having on the Great Lakes which will involve Discovery Harbour, and certainly the historical advisory council will be greatly committed to activities in that respect.
Mrs Witmer: When is that?
Mr Rintoul: Discovery Harbour? That is the new name for the naval and military establishment at Penetanguishene. From what I have heard, revenues are going up, interest is very, very strong. It seems this area is being very rapidly developed and the community's pretty well satisfied with what's going on.
Mrs Witmer: That's great. So it appears there is an increased interest, as far as the tourist is concerned, in the area?
Mr Rintoul: Yes.
Mrs Witmer: It's quite well marked when you're travelling up some of the roads, and there's always been a long-standing interest, particularly among the school communities. That's excellent.
Is there anything in particular you would like to focus your attention on? What priorities do you have for the council?
Mr Rintoul: There might be some lands that might be developed more for tourism, but I don't know too much about that. I know some suggestions have been put forward that some wood technology for boating could be developed in the area. It seems to me that with the use of some of these lands, probably more people could be involved in that aspect.
Mrs Witmer: What is your assessment of the present program at the parks? How is it viewed by the community? Is there good community support for the Huronia Historical Parks?
Mr Rintoul: Yes, I would say so. The community looks very positively on what's been going on.
Mrs Witmer: What type of interaction is there between the program and perhaps some of the youth activities, the school communities? Are there programs available?
Mr Rintoul: There are programs provided, and all kinds of guides and interpreters for moving children about the place.
Mrs Witmer: Do they have anything in the way of a summer week program for children?
Mr Rintoul: I could not say for sure. That's something I would be able to find out.
Mrs Witmer: That's one of the things that's being developed in other parts of the province. My own daughters participated in those type of programs, where you have children going to a park and perhaps for five days they have the opportunity to learn about the history and what have you.
Mr Rintoul: It wouldn't surprise me if there was a program. They've had winter programs, I know, live-ins and that sort of thing. We have the Wye marsh just next door and it has all kinds of programs relating to the students in school at every level.
Mrs Witmer: What type of time commitment do you envision would be involved in sitting on this advisory council?
Mr Rintoul: I can't see at the moment -- though this is a different kind of year -- a great amount of time being spent. Being retired, I have plenty of time and I'll do what's necessary.
Mrs Witmer: So you don't have any preconceived special interest? You're just there to do the best possible as a member of the advisory council?
Mr Rintoul: Yes. Until I get in and see what might be done, I can't really say definitely what direction I would like to see us go.
Mr Robert Frankford (Scarborough East): Welcome. It's a very interesting part of the world you're dealing with that really reflects some important parts of the province's history, the English, French, the Catholic traditions. I note with interest that the Jesuits have the right to appoint someone to the board, which is interesting and certainly reflects the historic reality.
Just an observation: I also think it's very interesting how those assets -- and of course, as you mentioned, you have the Wye marsh nearby as well -- can be used in community economic development. I find that a very interesting concept. Tourism is part of it, but I don't think it's the whole part. Perhaps you can make an observation. As a resident of the regular community there, do you find that tourism has or could have any adverse impact on the quality of life?
Mr Rintoul: I don't know how far down the road it would, but I can't see it having much at the moment. It's having a very positive influence right now.
When you think of our community with the three heritages there, and of course as new people come in we'll have the multicultural heritages, I have always been pleased with how these various groups have got along together. It always has made me very, very hopeful about the future of the country that here in this little area we've had French and English and Catholic and Protestant, and if they had a lot of very difficult times in the past, those tensions have been considerably removed.
Mr Frankford: I can see how that can work, that people are aware of their heritages in the area. I think, if I'm understanding correctly, that it all relates to people's everyday lives. I'm thinking of perhaps the other extremes. I don't know if you've read about Disney's latest proposal in Virginia, which is being forced through and is getting huge grants from the state, the sort of economic blackmail by major corporations that we're living with more and more. It sounds as though this is quite alien to the local culture and history.
Mr Rintoul: Yes. I don't see those pressures mounting yet. I don't know about down the road, but I certainly would not want to see that kind of crass tourism or commercialism come to dominate in our area.
Mr Frankford: Right, and although the board you're on doesn't really manage things, it certainly gives you a forum to express any concerns.
Mr Rintoul: That's correct, yes.
Mr Frankford: There has been this name change to Discovery Harbour from the Historic Naval and Military Establishments. As a neo-traditionalist myself, I rather liked the old name. Do you have any thoughts on the change?
Mr Rintoul: I agree with you, yes. Discovery Harbour seems to be a shorter name for the general public to be able to absorb.
Mr Frankford: It sounds like condominiums to me.
Mr Rintoul: Historic Naval and Military Establishments seemed to a number of people too much to mouth, and Discovery Harbour, well, there's a sense of adventure to it and perhaps it relates to what goes on on the water. I think this may be an area that wants to be emphasized, that there are going to a lot of ships in there and perhaps there will be the making of wooden boats of the old period. So Discovery Harbour seemed to some to be a fairly apt name.
Mr Frankford: But the other one, I think, has a very nice historical reminder.
Mr Rintoul: That's right, and that is something one should be on one's guard about, these historical names being passed over.
Mr Frankford: Yes. There's this press release about it which seems to have been written in the PR industry somewhere, which is not for everyone, I think.
Ms Harrington: It certainly is an interesting place. If I remember correctly when I visited there, one of the interesting things that one could do was to take a canoeing trip down the river in a historic mode and pretend it was 200 years ago.
I notice here that you are an advisory body, which means you don't actually run it; the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Recreation runs it. Do you know how much it costs the ministry to run this operation?
Mr Rintoul: I couldn't say. I've seen some figures but I wouldn't be able to recall them.
Ms Harrington: We have been given some figures here as to the revenue that the operation generated from the years 1987 through to 1993, and it has increased dramatically, which means you're very successful. It's gone from $179,000, which would have been about six years ago, up to almost half a million dollars this past year. Obviously, you're doing something right. The attendance has also almost doubled in that period.
Mr Rintoul: Yes, and the prospects are great too for doing even better.
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Ms Harrington: On behalf of the government of Ontario, I hope your revenues do keep increasing, because you know we are under difficult circumstances. Also, I hope you will enhance the historical nature of what you have there and interpret it to our modern society, because I believe that tourists now want more culture and history, not just to come and go swimming or whatever. I trust that in your operation you will take care of what you have been given there.
Maybe I should ask you what your vision might be to change any particular aspects. What would you do to improve things?
Mr Rintoul: To my mind, what has been done so far seems to be the right way to go about things, but there are some avenues that I would like to explore further, to see if maybe we've missed something or somebody has missed something. Perhaps we can involve more people in the local community in making this even more a historical area. I don't know to what extent the native peoples can be involved more fully in this.
Ms Harrington: Basically, creative thinking is what brings these new ideas and experiences forward for tourists.
Mr Curling: I too would like to thank you for coming in. I don't have very many questions, but I want to seize this opportunity, because when I look at your background here, I see there are many things we could have what we call good tea discussions on.
But let me ask you this still: Ontario has been changing so dramatically in its culture and the diversity of the people who are coming. I get a feeling that this rich history that we have in Canada and Ontario can be shared much more aggressively, if we use that word. Do you feel that way? Because there is so much to teach our new Canadians who are coming in about Canada and its history. Somehow I don't think that it's emphasized enough or pursued aggressively enough. What's your comment on that?
Mr Rintoul: I would agree with you that we have much to do in opening up our past to more people. Some of us grow up with a certain history, historical background, with our parents and grandparents and so on having lived in this area for so many years. But we have to open it up to all these new people who have been coming into the country so that they can absorb some of these things which some of us accept just because we have lived around here for a long time. I think we can do an awful lot more that way.
Mr Curling: In my experience too I have seen -- it's so sad, because sometimes I don't even want to comment on that -- that as soon as we talk about history or have someone speak publicly about something about North America, we go to the United States. The other communities too seem to tap those resources south of the 49th parallel.
Canadian studies, for instance, as you know, are starting to be done very much in the schools and in post-secondary education. There is a sort of downside to that. Is there any strategy that you feel we as parliamentarians could help to push that cause, so to speak? Because I think, then, your job -- not that I'm going to make it any easier, but more exciting if we reach out more. Are there things that you think we could be doing here that could help that kind of cause?
In other words, I'll give you a quick example. In the past, we had passes to go to many places. Gradually, because of the press and the publicity attached to that, they took away all these passes and said that those are all junkets and what have you and that we shouldn't have that. I remember even at Ontario Place, a beautiful place, if it was crowded they would say, "There's no parking for you, for members of Parliament."
I'm not advocating that we should get all these fringe benefits, but I find that when members of Parliament lead, because we are leaders in the community, and go to these things, people follow. Gradually I see that many of these passes are taken away and the interest, even within here, I find, dies. Would you advocate for things like that, that more should be done, that we should be visiting more of these places, seeing them first hand?
Mr Rintoul: Yes, very definitely. There is one area I always wanted to take classes to and somehow never seemed to get very much support. That was to take students into the north, into northern Ontario, to let them see how people worked in the old days to develop the mines in Timmins and South Porcupine and these places, to let them know something about the hardships that people had in opening up these areas. But as you were saying, we tend to go to the places which have colour. I'm very fortunate. I'm in an area of Ontario which is of that sort; it has a colourful background. But what has happened to the north as far as tourism goes with respect to education? I don't think very much. How many students have ever gone down a mine, for that matter?
Mr Curling: The community colleges, and I'd hope that in your position here we could advance some of those initiatives, Seneca College, for instance, had a program called the MILE, the mobile intensive learning experience. It took those students away. They used to go very far, to Tuktoyaktuk and all over the place. I'm telling you that the transformation that happened to those young people when they came back and were telling others was just tremendous.
Maybe I'm just re-emphasizing what I said before, but somehow if we can start to generate that kind of interest, people can be instilled with what is Canada, and especially the new Canadians, what it's all about. It's hard for them to project Canada when nothing else is giving in. We target on some of the things that are, I would almost say, not as important as what I see this to be.
I thank you for coming and thank you for serving on this. With the kind of experience you have, I think you will make a great contribution to this board.
Mr Rintoul: Thank you very much.
The Chair (Mrs Margaret Marland): Mr Cleary?
Mr Cleary: Good luck.
The Chair: Thank you for your appearance before the committee this morning, Mr Rintoul.
Mr Rintoul: Thank you very much.
The Chair: That is the end of our opportunity this morning to speak to our four appointees. We would need a motion, either for all of them or individually, at the choice of the committee. Mr Cleary?
Mr Cleary: Just one comment: I have before me here a public appointments secretariat document, St Lawrence Parks Commission, and I didn't want to confuse the issue when Mr Fournier was here, but it says the responsibilities for his position are, "The commission maintains and develops a series of parks along the St Clair River and Lake St Clair to complete a scenic drive from Chatham to Sarnia along Highway 40." I find that a little bit confusing.
Mr Frankford: That was a typing error.
The Chair: The researcher will take note of that.
Mr David Pond: No, it's not my responsibility.
The Chair: Oh, I'm sorry. I beg your pardon. I didn't mean to blame the researcher.
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Lynn Mellor): The error was corrected.
The Chair: All right. That is so noted. Thank you for your comment.
Do we have a motion for approval?
Mr Frankford: So moved.
The Chair: Dr Frankford is moving the appointment of Joan Tingley as a member of the Ontario Film Review Board; Bryan James Mackay as a member and chair of the Provincial Schools Authority; Mr C. Perrie Rintoul as a member of the Huronia Historical Advisory Council; and Mr Paul Fournier as a member of the St Lawrence Parks Commission.
All in favour of that motion? Opposed, if any? That motion is carried.
Just before we adjourn, I wanted to welcome Mr Gary Malkowski as a new member to our committee. We will look forward to your participation, Gary.
Mr Malkowski: Thank you.
The Chair: It's a pleasure. We have a subcommittee meeting. We'd appreciate whoever is sitting on that today for the three parties staying. There isn't any other business, so the committee will be adjourned, and I thank Mr Johnson for taking the chair this morning for me.
Mr David Johnson: My pleasure.
The committee adjourned at 1140.