CONTENTS
Wednesday 22 June 1994
Subcommittee report
STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
*Chair / Président: Huget, Bob (Sarnia ND)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Cooper, Mike (Kitchener-Wilmot ND)
Conway, Sean G. (Renfrew North/-Nord L)
Fawcett, Joan M. (Northumberland L)
Jordan, Leo (Lanark-Renfrew PC)
*Klopp, Paul (Huron ND)
*Murdock, Sharon (Sudbury ND)
*Offer, Steven (Mississauga North/-Nord L)
Turnbull, David (York Mills PC)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay ND)
*Wilson, Gary (Kingston and The Islands/Kingston et Les Îles ND)
*Wood, Len (Cochrane North/-Nord ND)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC) Mr Turnbull
Clerk pro tem / Greffier par intérim: Decker, Todd
Staff / Personnel: Richmond, Jerry, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1559 in committee room 1.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Chair (Mr Bob Huget): The subcommittee on resources development met on Monday, June 20, 1994, and recommends the following with respect to Bill 165, An Act to amend the Workers' Compensation Act and the Occupational Health and Safety Act.
"(1) Pending agreement with the House leaders, that the standing committee on resources development hold three weeks of public hearings and one week of clause-by-clause consideration on Bill 165 commencing in August.
"(2) That the first week of hearings be held in Toronto commencing on Monday afternoon, 22 August 1994, with background briefing by the minister or parliamentary assistant and ministry staff. The week of 29 August 1994 will consist of travel to London, Ottawa and Sault Ste Marie. The week of 5 September 1994 will be held in Toronto commencing on Tuesday afternoon. The week of 12 September 1994 will be set aside for clause-by-clause consideration of the bill commencing on Monday afternoon.
"(3) Witnesses will be allotted half-hour time slots consisting of 15 minutes for their presentations and 15 minutes for questions from the members.
"(4) The clerk of the committee shall place an advertisement in all daily newspapers in Ontario and in the French daily.
"(5) Scheduling will be done by the clerk and the Chair on a first-come, first-scheduled basis.
"(6) Caucus witness lists must be submitted to the clerk of the committee by Thursday 30 June 1994. Every attempt will be made to accommodate all witnesses.
"(7) That any requests for reimbursements for witness travel expenses be brought to the subcommittee for approval.
"(8) That the researcher prepare as complete a summary of recommendations as possible."
That's the recommendation of the subcommittee.
Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): Just a couple of points that I don't think have to change this, but my understanding on (3) is that we hadn't agreed that the half-hour time slots were going to consist of 15 minutes with 15 minutes, but rather that there was going to be a suggestion to the presenters that it would be good for the committee if they would keep their 30 minutes to a 15-minute presentation. This looks a bit more definite, and I don't believe the subcommittee actually suggested that. If somebody wants to chat for 30 minutes, that will be their call, but I thought it was just a suggestion by the committee that we would like it if they might want to consider that. If that be the message of (3), that's fine.
The Chair: That's exactly what it's supposed to really say there, although the wording doesn't really reflect that and I can appreciate it. Basically, what we're going to do is encourage the witnesses to use that half-and-half process for their technical presentation and a significant amount of time for dialogue with committee members. That will be communicated by letter to the witnesses, that we're going to encourage them to do that to allow for the type of discussion we agreed to.
Mr Offer: And on (5), the scheduling, I believe it was the discussion that the members put in the hands of the Chair and the clerk their expectation, if not hope, that if there's a huge number of requests, there would be a balance, as best as could be achieved, in terms of the presentations. I think that's different from "first-come, first-scheduled basis." In other words, if you get a whole group of people who are totally opposed to the legislation, they would necessarily shut out those who are in favour. I thought there was some suggestion that a balance, if at all possible without causing any injustice, would be achieved.
The Chair: Yes, and it's not reflected here, although I agree with you -- we discussed that -- that every attempt will be made for us, as much as possible, to ensure there is a balanced presentation every day. We can't guarantee that, but we certainly want to work towards that.
Mr Offer: That wouldn't be "first-come, first-scheduled." You can't have that, because that takes it out of your hands; you just become a time clock.
The Chair: But we have some ability to look at the witnesses and determine whether they're for or against this bill. In some cases, that's not possible, but we can try and do that and then use the scheduling slots we have to make sure there is some kind of balanced flow to the day.
Mr Offer: I'm just trying to bring forward that I think it was the intent of the subcommittee that they were going to put that decision-making in the hands of the clerk and the Chair in terms of, as best as possible, achieving a balance of presentations.
The Chair: That's my understanding, and that's what we're going to attempt to do.
Mr Gary Wilson (Kingston and The Islands): But it should be in the wording. Isn't that what you're after?
Mr Offer: First-come, first-served doesn't give them that discretion.
Mr Gary Wilson: I agree.
Mr Offer: If you took the words "scheduling will be done by the clerk and the Chair," period, I'm a little more comfortable with that as opposed to "on a first-come, first-scheduled basis," because I think that brings the intention of the subcommittee to this.
The Chair: We can make that change.
Mr Offer: The last thing I want to say is on (2). It was understood that the hearings would commence on the Mondays in the afternoon at 2 and that the final presentation would be commencing at 4; that the mornings would be commencing at 10 and completing by noon; and we recognize that there might be a need for flexibility in that area. That would hold for the Toronto situation, where we'll be for three of the four weeks, two for public hearings and one for clause-by-clause; that we'll be starting the Mondays at 2 o'clock and ending at 4. The travelling was still flexible; we just didn't know when it would start and where. And we were trying to get into the Amethyst room.
Mr Gary Wilson: I wasn't quite sure of the finish time. At one time, I thought you were saying the last one to begin at 4:30, but then you said over by 4. What are the hours? Is it till 5?
The Chair: Our understanding was that the last presentation would start at 4 o'clock, so therefore you'd be looking at 4:30.
Mr Gary Wilson: So it's over by 4:30 probably.
Mr Offer: We're basically going from 10 till noon, and from 2 to 4:30.
Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): We'd work a four-and-a-half-hour day.
Mr Gary Wilson: Set a model for the province. I like that, especially the productivity we can count on.
Mr Offer: I'm trying to bring forward what was said.
The Chair: So on (5) it will read, "Scheduling will be done by the clerk and the Chair," and we'll remove that "on a first-come, first-scheduled basis." Is that satisfactory? Fine.
Ms Sharon Murdock (Sudbury): I have a question on (7). Does "any requests for reimbursements for witness travel expenses" mean they would have to be requested, or would it be automatic? For instance, my concern in northern Ontario would be that for Thunder Bay presenters and Sudbury presenters having to go to Sault Ste Marie, would it be automatic? It doesn't say it would be automatic.
The Chair: The standard procedure is that it is never automatic. They have to approach the committee and make a request to have their travel expenses reimbursed. That's the way it always is. In this particular case, what we've said is that the subcommittee would look at those requests as it receives them. Witnesses who have a need to be reimbursed for their travel expenses should be advised that if they need reimbursement they need to request it, and the subcommittee will deal with it.
Mr Runciman: I have a question about the advertising "in all daily newspapers in Ontario." What's the committee budgeted for that advertising exercise?
Clerk of the Committee (Mr Todd Decker): To place the standard advertisement in all the daily newspapers in Ontario, one insertion, runs around $12,000.
Mr Runciman: It's not a lot when you look at a $55-billion budget, but the Minister of Transportation just closed down a licensing office in a community in my riding using the argument that it was going to save $10,000 a year, and we're prepared to spend $12,000 on one ad in all the daily newspapers. It seems to me it's a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach in many instances.
I know this is a bigger question and I don't want to get into a full debate on this, but it's something the government should look at, perhaps cutting those costs in half by advertising in a regional paper. Why it is necessary to advertise in every daily paper in Ontario, I'm not sure. I know you want to make this notification as widely available as possible, but at the same time, there may be less expensive ways of achieving that. Food for thought.
The Chair: I appreciate your comments.
Mr Paul Klopp (Huron): I've heard those comments on other committees; I can remember when I first got here. Then you start saying, "Pick the ones in your area that you can get away with." But it's something I think we all should be aware of and doing our best every time. If you can find a way, I'll be for it, but in Huron county, you really haven't got any dailies or regionals unless you count London, and we already figure London never covers us enough anyway.
The Chair: I hear you.
Ms Murdock: I move adoption of the subcommittee report, as discussed.
The Chair: All in favour? Opposed? Carried.
The wording changes will be made. There will also be a reflection of Mr Offer's point in terms of scheduling of witnesses, as well as the hours of sitting from 10 to noon and 2 to 4:30, and that Monday afternoons we will start at 2 pm.
Thank you very much for your participation.
The committee adjourned at 1613.