CONTENTS
Monday 19 October 1992
Labour Relations and Employment Statute Law Amendment Act, 1992, Bill 40
STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
*Chair / Président: Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold ND)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Huget, Bob (Sarnia ND)
Conway, Sean G. (Renfrew North/-Nord L)
Dadamo, George (Windsor-Sandwich ND)
Jordan, Leo (Lanark-Renfrew PC)
*Klopp, Paul (Huron ND)
McGuinty, Dalton (Ottawa South/-Sud L)
*Murdock, Sharon (Sudbury ND)
*Offer, Steven (Mississauga North/-Nord L)
*Turnbull, David (York Mills PC)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgianne ND)
*Wood, Len (Cochrane North/-Nord ND)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants:
*Hayes, Pat (Essex-Kent ND) for Mr Huget
*Lessard, Wayne (Windsor-Walkerville ND) for Mr Waters
*Witmer, Elizabeth (Waterloo North/-Nord PC) for Mr Jordan
*In attendance / présents
Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes:
Kovacs, Jerry, legal counsel, Ministry of Labour
Clerk pro tem / Greffier par intérim: Decker, Todd
Staff / Personnel:
Anderson, Anne, research officer, Legislative Research Service
Spakowski, Mark, legislative counsel
The committee met at 1534 in committee room 1.
LABOUR RELATIONS AND EMPLOYMENT STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI A TRAIT AUX RELATIONS DE TRAVAIL ET À L'EMPLOI
Consideration of Bill 40, An Act to amend certain Acts concerning Collective Bargaining and Employment / Loi modifiant certaines lois en ce qui a trait à la négociation collective et à l'emploi.
The Chair (Mr Peter Kormos): Mr Offer, it's your motion being debated.
Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): We had some discussion on this motion last day. Just to be aware, what my motion is doing is extending the protection provided to workers in this province. It is saying that if, in the event of an organizing drive, there is any evidence, any finding, of a contravention of the Labour Relations Act, of an unfair labour practice, from whatever source--and that includes, of course, the employer or the trade union--which has been precipitated by the employer, which causes a barrier to the employee's true wishes being made known, and there is an adequate level of support for unionization, then the establishment will be automatically certified.
It goes on to say that if there is a finding of an unfair labour practice by the trade union, then that application is immediately dismissed. As we know, the government, in its Bill 40, does not afford any protection to a worker who may be the victim of an unfair labour practice perpetrated by the trade union. We know from our public consultation that others came before this committee and said that as there are examples of intimidation and coercion by employers, so there are examples from the trade union side.
My amendment is designed to provide protection to all employees of this province from intimidation and coercion, from whatever source. I believe it is an amendment which in no uncertain way provides a broader form of protection to the workers of this province, and I ask that all members of this committee give to the workers of this province that protection which is not now in the legislation.
The Chair: There being no further debate, all those in favour of Mr Offer's motion.
Mr Offer: Recorded vote, please, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Go ahead. All those in favour?
Mr Jerry Kovacs: Excuse me.
The Chair: Yes, sir.
Mr Kovacs: If I might add a brief comment, I simply note to Mr Offer section 71 of the current Labour Relations Act, which prohibits any person, trade union or employers' organization from seeking by intimidation or coercion to compel any person to become or refrain from becoming or continuing or ceasing to be a member of a trade union.
I'd further point him to Bill 40, section 8, which sets out what would become section 8 of the Labour Relations Act, dealing with certification. In subsection (6) of those provisions, the bill makes clear that post-application-date evidence in respect of section 71--which would include the intimidation and coercion you've alluded to--and also in clause (b) of that subsection, evidence respecting the voluntariness or involuntariness of the expression of true wishes from an employee, might be considered by the board. You will know that those considerations in the labour board's current jurisprudence, and the ministry would expect in its future jurisprudence, would continue to rule the board in its decision about whether or not it should exercise its discretion to order a vote in a case of a certification application.
Mr Offer: In response to the Ministry of Labour, I could not disagree with you more. Under Bill 40, you have a provision that states if there is an unfair labour practice by the employer, which is identified and proven, then there is automatic certification. What I am saying here is that if there is an unfair labour practice by the trade union in organizing, it isn't enough that the application be dismissed; what we are saying is that there must be a penalty to the trade union, as there is to the employer. I am saying that the penalty is that the application is not only dismissed but cannot be brought forward for a period of one year.
This is the only way in which the workers of this province will get the protection they need and deserve. I am not saying that intimidation and coercion are widespread; I am saying that we heard it in the public hearings. People came before the committee. They expressed their concerns, they expressed their opinions and they expressed their own experiences. For this legislation to proceed without giving to the workers of this province protection against intimidation, coercion, unfair labour practice, from whatever source, is to turn your backs on the people who had the courage to come before this committee.
The Chair: There's been a call for a recorded vote. All in favour?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Yes, sir.
1540
Mr Offer: Mr Chair, just before proceeding, I would like to hear from the parliamentary assistant whether they are going to allow the nursing profession to be included under paragraph 7(2)4 of Bill 40. It is important that I hear that response.
The Chair: Go ahead.
Ms Sharon Murdock (Sudbury): I'm afraid at this point I still haven't spoken with my minister and it will have to be brought before committee of the whole.
Mr Offer: I am going to be providing a motion that will require the Ministry of Labour to start to deal with this issue. You have dodged this issue from the beginning, and I will be asking and making a motion to that effect.
The Chair: You're moving that?
Mr Offer: Yes, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Do you want to say that again slowly so the clerk can write it down?
Mr Offer: I move that the committee request the Minister of Labour to establish a task force of the Ministry of Labour and the Ontario Nurses' Association to deal with the issue of inclusion of the profession of nursing into the terms of the Ontario Labour Relations Act.
The Chair: That's not a motion making an amendment.
Mr Offer: No, it isn't.
The Chair: Unless anybody wants to argue otherwise, it wasn't necessary for it to be filed or tabled before 4 o'clock on the last day. Go ahead, Mr Offer.
Mr Offer: I just make this motion because this is a question that's been posed to the parliamentary assistant and to ministry staff from day one. They continually refuse to address the issue, and I know that under the terms of the closure motion it will be impossible for me to bring forward this motion at a later date. It will be impossible for me to bring forward this motion at any time after 4 pm today, so it is absolutely imperative that I bring forward a motion at this time in the event that the government does not move on the amendment to include nurses under the Ontario Labour Relations Act, as is desired by the Ontario Nurses' Association.
Mr Paul Klopp (Huron): I want to make a clarification, I think. I just heard the member say that this has been discussed from day one of this hearing. If we look back in our Hansard over last week, I believe, the question was raised, from memory, between the member and Ms Witmer and the PA, and I believe it was the same gentleman who just said now it's been talked about since day one. If you look at the Hansard, I believe it'll basically say in there that he knew nothing about it and it was news to him. I find it ironic that today he tries to imply that this has been discussed since day one and he was aware of it. I just want to bring that out.
Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Waterloo North): Just in response to the amendment that's been moved by the critic for the official opposition, the Ontario PC Party added an amendment last week which was consistent with what ONA was asking for, that nursing be added to the list of professions. We stood that motion down in order to get a response from the parliamentary assistant as to the position of the ministry on that issue, but yes, they very much want to be added to the list of professions so that they can have a bargaining unit that consists solely of employees who are members of their own profession. I would hope we can get a response, but I understand there's not one available.
Ms Murdock: This was discussed on Thursday, Mrs Witmer, and actually your motion would cover it, so the government didn't have to bring forward one.
Mrs Witmer: But when are we going to be voting?
Ms Murdock: Yes, I realize. Actually, Mr Dean is going to phone through and see if we can get the minister's office. I realize.
Mr Offer: Fifteen minutes.
The Chair: Mr Offer?
Mr Offer: No, Mr Chair, I have made the point I wish to make.
The Chair: There being no further debate around--yes, Ms Murdock?
Ms Murdock: Just a point: I realize that it would be late, but it still can come forward in committee of the whole.
The Chair: Thank you. There being no further debate on Mr Offer's motion--Mr Offer?
Mr Offer: I'd like a recorded vote on that.
The Chair: All in favour, please indicate.
Ms Murdock: Would you read it again? I'm sorry, but I would like to hear the--
The Chair: Perhaps you could read it again, Mr Offer.
Mr Offer: Where is it?
Clerk Pro Tem (Mr Todd Decker): It's being photocopied.
The Chair: We'll wait.
Mrs Witmer: Mr Kormos, given the hour I guess I'm a little annoyed that the--
The Chair: You're a little annoyed?
Mr Offer: --member for the Liberal Party would bring it forward at this late date and we'd have to sit here and waste further time.
The Chair: Thank you. Mr Offer's motion has been distributed. Mr Offer has called for a recorded vote. As in every instance when there's a call for a recorded vote, people who are in favour will raise their hands and keep their hands raised until their names are called. All in favour?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Mr Offer's motion is defeated.
Ms Murdock moves that section 11 of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:
"Subsection 10(3) of the act is repealed and the following substituted:
"Membership
"(3) For the purposes of sections 8, 9 and 9.1, a person who is a member of any constituent trade union of a council or who has applied to become a member of one shall be deemed by the board to be a member of the council or to have applied to become a member of it."
Yes, Ms Witmer?
Mrs Witmer: Would you repeat the section we're on?
The Chair: Ms Murdock moves that section 11 of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:
"Subsection 10(3) of the act is repealed and the following substituted."
Mrs Witmer: Have you dealt with the PC motion related to section 10 of the bill, section 9.2 of the act, referring to certification, where the act is contravened?
The Chair: Just one moment please.
Mrs Witmer: I think it followed the motion that's just been put by Mr Offer.
The Chair: It may well have. I don't have it in the set of motions I've got. The clerk doesn't have a copy of it, either. Could you give me a copy of that, please? Thank you.
Ms Murdock defers her motion in favour of Ms Witmer's motion that section 9.2 of the act, as set out in section 10 of the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"Certification where act contravened
"If an employer or employer's organization contravenes this act so that the true wishes of the employees of the employer or of a member of the employer's organization are not likely to be ascertained, and, in the opinion of the board, a trade union has membership support adequate for the purposes of collective bargaining in a bargaining unit found by the board to be appropriate for collective bargaining, the board may, on the application of the trade union, certify the trade union as a bargaining agent of the employees and the bargaining unit."
Mrs Witmer: Of the 94 amendments that the PC Party has introduced, this is our number 33. The intent of this particular amendment is to maintain the adequate support--
The Chair: Please, Ms Witmer, I wasn't here, as you know, on Thursday. I trust that somebody's raising the issue that this motion was moved by Mr Turnbull on Thursday and defeated after a vote. It was moved prior to Mr Offer's motion.
Mr Offer: That's my recollection, Mr Chair.
Mr Randy R. Hope (Chatham-Kent): Then the motion is no longer in order.
The Chair: That's not to say that I wasn't here on Thursday, but I had to leave early to--
Mr Hope: Yes, it was a privilege to sit in your place.
Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): You were here most of the time. You just slipped out--
Mr Offer: Could we deal with the bill?
The Chair: Is there any concern on your part, Ms Witmer, that the motion had been dealt with, having been moved by Mr Turnbull?
Mrs Witmer: Mr Turnbull doesn't have a note to that effect. I'm sorry; I wasn't here Thursday either. Anyway, if that's the case, we're certainly agreeable to proceeding.
1550
The Chair: In favour were Turnbull, Offer; opposed were Murdock, Hayes, Klopp, Ward and Wood. It was October 15, 1992. Thank you.
We're back to Ms Murdock's motion.
Ms Murdock: Very briefly, in the last line, to have "applied to become a member" is the only difference in this section. It's to cover the fact that the definition of "member" was deleted.
The Chair: Thank you. Is there any further debate? There being no further debate, all those in favour, please indicate. Opposed?
Ms Murdock's motion is carried.
Mr Turnbull moves that section 12 of the bill be struck out. That's out of order.
Ms Witmer moves that section 12 of the bill be struck out. That's out of order.
Ms Witmer moves, in her PC motion, alternate 2, that section 11.1 of the act, as set out in section 12 of the bill, be amended by adding the following subsection:
"Exception
"(1.1) This section does not apply with respect to schools and other property owned or occupied by a board of education."
Mrs Witmer: This amendment, of course, refers to picketing and organizing on third-party property, and it's an issue I spoke to today in the House. However, this specific amendment would prevent union organizers and picketers from having access to schools and other board property. As you probably know, this has been a real concern for the Ontario Public School Boards' Association as it takes a look at the possible impact of Bill 40 on the children in the learning environment within schools. School boards are extremely concerned that school property could be regarded as property "to which the public normally has access." This amendment which we have proposed clarifies that these provisions which allow third-party picketing do not apply to schools and other board property to which the public has access. This amendment, then, would prevent union organizers and picketers from having access to schools and other board property.
Mr Offer: I was hoping that in the brief time permitted to us, we would still be able to get to this section. Certainly I understand very much the motion made by Ms Witmer. We heard during our public hearings a great deal of concern not only by the school boards, but by a variety of individuals as to how this section is going to apply.
In my mind, there is no other choice but to strike down this section. I will tell you why as I speak to Ms Witmer's motion. I understand that the government has set up a task force to look at the issue of picketing in organizing and strike-related activities on private property. I was wondering if we might get a confirmation of that.
Ms Murdock: I believe we're going ahead with a task force under the Attorney General's office to look at the legalities.
Mr Offer: Whatever ministry you go under, that makes the point. What you are doing is going forward with a section that Ms Witmer is attempting to amend and acknowledging that you do not know the implications. The evidence of that is the fact that you are setting up a task force to look into the implications of something you are doing. Surely the most responsible approach is to hold down the whole section until the task force has responded, reported, and dealt with the issues such as the school boards and such as many of the licensed operations in this province.
I'll speak in favour of Ms Witmer's motion, but I must tell you that the best way to deal with this section is to just vote this whole thing down, wait for the task force to report, and then introduce a section which is responsive to a task force which you yourself have created.
The Chair: There being no further debate, all those in favour of Ms Witmer's motion?
Mr Offer: A recorded vote.
The Chair: Recorded vote.
Ayes
Offer, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed, please?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Ms Witmer's motion is defeated.
Ms Witmer moves that subsections 11.1(2) to (7) of the act, as set out in section 12 of the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"Right of access re organizing
"(2) On application, the board may authorize the employees and representatives of the trade union to be present on premises described in subsection (1) for the purpose of attempting to persuade employees to join a trade union. Attempts to persuade the employees may be made only at or near but outside the entrances and exits to the employees' workplace.
"Right of access re picketing
"(3) On application during a lockout or lawful strike, the board may authorize individuals to be present on premises described in subsection (1) for the purpose of picketing, in connection with the lockout or strike, the operations of an employer or a person acting on behalf of an employer. The picketing may occur only at or near but outside the entrances and exits to the operations.
"Factors
"(4) In an application under subsection (2) or (3), the board may take into account such factors as it considers appropriate and shall consider,
"(a) the type of activity for which access is being requested and whether the activity will unduly disrupt the operations of the enterprise;
"(b) the hours for which access is sought; and
"(c) the kind of invitation extended to the public to be present at the premises.
"Prohibition
"(5) No person shall interfere with the exercise of a right given under subsection (2) or (3)."
Mrs Witmer: The intent of this motion, again concerning organizing and picketing on third-party property, is to empower the board to consider certain factors before granting access to third-party property. As we've done in the past for each section, we have come forward with several alternatives in response to the concerns that have been put before us this summer.
In considering the application, the board would be empowered to grant access to third-party property based on a number of factors they would have to take into serious consideration, the first being whether there are any other avenues open to the union to communicate with the employees for the purposes of organizing, or with the customers and clients of the employer for the purposes of picketing, that do not intrude on the private property rights of the third party.
As we know, this Bill 40, section 12, violates the rights of third-party owners and also the innocent public and consumers. So we're saying, let's take a look at other avenues, and if they're available let's use those other avenues and avoid this picketing on third-party property.
As to the other factor, the type of activity for which access is being requested and whether it will unduly disrupt the operations of the enterprise, it is absolutely essential that the board consider that particular factor.
Also, the board needs to take a look at the hours during which access is requested. At the present time, it appears that access is for 24 hours of the day. Certainly, if that's to happen, third-party property owners are going to be placed in a position where they're going to have to incur additional costs in the areas of maintenance and security.
Finally, the other factor that the board would be empowered to consider in granting access to third-party property would be the kind of invitation extended to the public to attend at the premises.
So third-party access, according to the amendment I've put forward, would only be granted on application to the board. The board could place restriction on organizing and picketing activity to protect the interests of the third-party property owner. I believe it's absolutely essential that the innocent third-party property owner, his rights, her rights, be taken into consideration. This is what this amendment would be intended to do.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms Witmer. The order of the House under which we are currently operating requires that at this time I am obligated to interrupt the committee's proceedings and put every question necessary to dispose of every amendment and every section of Bill 40.
All amendments that were filed with the clerk of the committee by 4 pm last Thursday and not yet moved are deemed to be moved at this point. All members of the committee have a package at their places that includes each and every amendment so filed with the clerk of the committee.
It is my intention to interpret the order of the House on July 14, 1992, such that one wait of 20 minutes pursuant to standing order 128(a), if requested by any member, will be entertained at the outset of this process so that each caucus may assemble its members for the upcoming votes on the deemed amendments and on the sections of the bill.
The order of the House further provides that any recorded divisions on the deemed amendments and on the sections of the bill shall be deferred until all questions have been put. It will be my intention to allow one further 20-minute wait pursuant to standing order 128(a), if requested by any member, at the point at which recorded votes on deferred divisions are set to commence.
I wish to point out that the order of the House prohibits any debate or any further amendment on any of the questions I will be calling henceforth. For the convenience of the members of the committee and Hansard I have provided a copy of the script I will be using to deal with all outstanding amendments and sections to the bill.
It is my interpretation of the order of the House that, having begun this voting process, the Chair is obligated to continue until all questions have been dealt with, regardless of the clock.
1600
Mr Offer: Mr Chair, just a further clarification: I thank you for the script that's going to be followed. There are, as we know, a number of amendments that not only have not been discussed, but the wording of the amendments have not even been read in. Is it my understanding from your explanation that these motions, the words of the motion, will not even be read, it will just be the number?
The Chair: They're deemed to have been moved, which means they're deemed to have been read.
Mr Offer: And we are expected to vote yes or no without hearing what they have to say.
The Chair: Yes, sir.
Mr Offer: It sounds pretty responsible, eh?
The Chair: Shall section 1 of the bill carry?
Mr Offer: Just one moment. I just would ask, Mr Chair, for five minutes in order to get these sections in order.
Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): Mr Chair, I would ask that all of these votes be recorded.
The Chair: Thank you. Each and every vote shall be recorded. That means that when the question is called, persons in favour shall raise their hands and keep their hands raised until their names are called, and when people are queried as to opposition, they will similarly raise their hands and keep their hands raised until their names are called.
Shall section 1 of the bill carry? This is a recorded vote. I indicated raise your hands and keep your hands raised until your name is called.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Offer, Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 2 of the bill carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 3 of the bill carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 4 of the bill carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 5 of the bill, as amended, carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 6 of the bill carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the deferred PC amendment to section 7(2)(4) carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall section 7 of the bill, as amended, carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 8 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 9 of the bill carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 10 of the bill, as amended, carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 11 of the bill, as amended, carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 12 of the bill, subsections 11.1(2) to (7) of the act, carry? The three intervening matters have already been dealt with. In favour?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 12 of the bill, subsection 11.1(2) of the act, carry? In favour?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 12 of the bill, subsection 11.1(4.1) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 12 of the bill, subsection 11.1(6) and (7) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 12 of the bill, subsection 11.1(6.1) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 12 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: The Liberal motion to strike out section 13 of the bill is not in order.
The PC motion to strike out section 13 of the bill is not in order.
Shall sections 13 through 18 carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: The PC motion to strike out section 19 of the bill is not in order.
Shall the PC amendment to section 19(1) of the bill, subsections 41(1) to (1.3) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 19(1) of the bill, clause 41(1.2)(c) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall section 19 of the bill carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: The PC motion to strike out section 20 of the bill is not in order.
Shall the PC amendment to section 20 of the bill, subsection 41.1(1.1) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 20 of the bill, subsection 41.1(5) paragraph 5 of the act, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 20 of the bill, subsection 41.1(5) paragraph 7 of the act, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 20 of the bill, subsection 41.1(6.1) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 20 of the bill, subsection 41.1(7) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 20 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 21 of the bill, subsections 43.1(1) and (2) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
1610
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 21 of the bill, subsection 43.1(1) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 21 of the bill, subsection 43.1(2) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment identified as alternate 2 to section 21 of the bill, subsection 43.1(2) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
Mr Offer: We can't interrupt these proceedings for anything, can we?
The Chair: No, sir. Shall the government amendment to section 21 of the bill, subsection 43.1(5) of the act, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 21 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall section 22 of the bill carry?
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Turnbull, Witmer, Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Offer.
The Chair: If people would do the clerk the courtesy of turning their nameplates towards the clerk. Thank you.
Shall the PC amendment to section 23(1) of the bill, subsection 45(2) of the act, carry?
Mr Offer: Mr Chair, is it possible there's a same vote that that be instituted as opposed to doing this stuff?
The Chair: Quite right.
Mr Offer: It's crazy what we're doing.
The Chair: I suspect on this one you'd want to indicate same vote reversed?
Mr Offer: Yes, well--
The Chair: Same vote reversed?
Mr Offer: No, no, we might have to have a vote on this one, to be frank with you.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 23(1) of the bill, subsection 45(2) of the act carry?
Ayes
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Opposed?
Nays
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 23(3) of the bill, subsection 45.6(3) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 23(3) of the bill, subsection 45(8) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Mr Turnbull: Reversed to the last one.
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 23(3) of the bill, subsection 45(8) paragraph 3 of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 23(3) of the bill, subsection 45(8) paragraph 4 of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 23(3) of the bill, subsection 45(8.1) paragraph 2 of the act carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 23(3) of the bill, subsection 45(8.1) paragraphs 2 to 4 of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 23(3), subsection 45(8.1) paragraph 6 of the act carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 23 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Mr Offer: No.
Ms Murdock: Same vote.
Interjections: Same vote.
The Chair: Same vote.
Shall sections 24 and 25 of the bill carry? Same vote.
Mr Offer: I understand why you wouldn't want this on the record.
The Chair: The government amendment to section 25.1 of the bill, clause 47(2)(c) of the act, is not in order as it seeks an amendment to a section of the act not being amended by a section of the bill. Is there unanimous consent to proceed with a vote on this, notwithstanding that it is not in order?
Mr Offer: Unfortunately I can't do that.
The Chair: Thank you.
Shall the government amendment to section 26 of the bill, section 49.1 of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 26 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 26.1 of the bill carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 27(1) of the bill, subsection 58(1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 27(2) of the bill, subsections 58(2) and (3) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 27(3), subsection 58(3.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 27 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 28 of the bill carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 29 of the bill is not in order.
Shall section 29 of the bill carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 30 of the bill is not in order.
Shall section 30 of the bill carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 31 of the bill is not in order.
Shall the government amendment to section 31 of the bill, subsection 64.2(5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 31 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 32 is not in order.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(1.1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(2) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the Liberal amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(2) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(2.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(3) of the act, carry?
Mr Turnbull: That should be the Liberal amendment. That's section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(2).
Ms Murdock: No, we've already passed that.
Mr Turnbull: Okay, sorry, but it should have read "Liberal."
Ms Murdock: He did say "Liberal."
The Chair: Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(3) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(3) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(4) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment identified as "alternate 2" to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment identified as "alternate 3" to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(5) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(6) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment identified as "alternate 2" to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(6) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(6) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(6) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(6.1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsections 73.1(7) and (8) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Mrs Witmer: Mr Chairman, do you want to read, "With the exception of...the vote is such"? Do you really want to go through this charade?
The Chair: No. You asked a question, and I gave you an answer. The answer is no, but we have to, okay? We're required to.
Mrs Witmer: There are a few sections where we would support the government. If you want to know which they are, I can let you know, and the rest we're opposed to. We only support four more sections. You can do a lot of reading.
The Chair: I'm girded for that.
Mrs Witmer: Are you?
The Chair: But this is what has to be done.
1620
Ms Murdock: Would it require unanimous consent to do that?
The Chair: We have a motion that has been passed by the House. We are restricted, in my view, to doing what that motion tells us, what we can or can't do. I'm trying to make this as painless as possible.
If somebody wants to administer Novocaine, God bless.
Mr Offer: Continue on, Mr Chair; you're doing a good job. I understand the problem, but is it outside of the rules to just take the script as read and deal with the sections that wish to be discussed?
The Chair: We've got to proceed with the votes on each and every one of these without debate.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(8.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.1(9) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, sections 73.2 and 73.3 of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(2) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(2) paragraph 6.1 of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsections 73.2(7) to (10) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(8.1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(11) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(15.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(18) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 32 of the bill, subsection 73.2(20) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 32 of the bill, section 73.3 of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 32 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote reversed.
The PC amendment to section 32.1 of the bill, subsections 74(2.1) and (4.1) of the act, is not in order as it seeks an amendment to a section of the act not being amended by a section of the bill. This motion may be accepted if there is unanimous consent. Is there unanimous consent?
Mr Huget: No. Sorry.
The Chair: Thank you. The Liberal motion to strike out section 33 of the bill is not in order.
The PC motion to strike out section 33 of the bill is not in order.
Shall section 33 of the bill carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 34 of the bill is not in order.
Shall the PC amendment to section 34 of the bill, subsection 81.1(1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 34 of the bill, subsection 81.1(2.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 34 of the bill, subsection 81.1(3) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the PC amendment to section 34 of the bill, subsection 81.1(3.1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 34 of the bill, subsection 81.1(4) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 34 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 35 of the bill, subsection 81.2(1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 35 of the bill, subsection 81.2(1.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 35 of the bill, subsection 81.2(2) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 35 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 36(1) of the bill, clause 91(4)(d) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 36(1) of the bill, clause 94(4)(d) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 36(2) of the bill, subsection 91(4.1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 36 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 37 of the bill is not in order.
Shall the PC amendment to section 37 of the bill, section 92.1 of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 37 of the bill, subsection 92.1(1) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the government amendment to section 37 of the bill, subsection 92.2(4) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 37 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Mr Offer: This is the expeditious hearing?
The Chair: Section 37.
Mr Offer: Yes, this is the expeditious hearing.
The Chair: I'll put the question. Shall section 37 of the bill, as amended, carry? All in favour, please keep your hand raised until your name is called. Shall section 37 of the bill, as amended, carry?
Mr Hope: We already did, didn't we?
Ms Murdock: I thought we'd already done that.
Mr Hope: Are we backing it up now?
The Chair: No, you're not backing it up.
Ms Murdock: We haven't voted. The vote has not been recorded.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Offer, Wood.
Nays
Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to subsection 38(1) of the bill, subsection 93(1) of the act, carry? All in favour, please indicate.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Offer, Turnbull, Witmer, Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Shall the government amendment to subsection 38(6) of the bill carry? All those in favour, please indicate.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Offer, Turnbull, Witmer, Wood.
The Chair: Any opposed?
Shall section 38 of the bill, as amended, carry? All in favour, please indicate.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Offer, Turnbull, Witmer, Wood.
The Chair: Opposed?
Shall sections 39 and 40 of the bill carry? Please raise your hands.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 41 of the bill, section 102 of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 41 of the vote, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to subsection 42(1) of the bill carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to subsection 42(4) of the bill carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 42(5) of the bill, subsections 104(13.1) to (14.3) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 42(5) of the bill, clause 104(14.1)(a) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 42 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 43 of the bill carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 44 of the bill, subsection 109(2) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 44 of the bill, as amended, carry? All those in favour of section 44 of the bill, as amended, please indicate.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Offer, Turnbull, Witmer, Wood.
The Chair: Shall sections 45 and 46 of the bill carry? Please raise your hands.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the government amendment to section 47 of the bill, subsection 113.1(1) paragraph 2 of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 47 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall sections 48 and 49 of the bill carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 50(2.1) of the bill, clause 118(k) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the Liberal amendment to section 50(3) of the bill carry? Same vote reversed.
The identical PC motion is out of order.
Shall the government amendment to section 50(3) of the bill, clause 118(k.3) of the act, carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 50 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 51 of the bill carry? Same vote.
Shall section 51 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall sections 52 to 56 of the bill, inclusive, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 57 of the bill, subsection 146(2) of the act, carry?
Shall section 57 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out sections 58 to 61 of the bill is not in order.
Shall section 58 of the bill carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.5(1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.6(6) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.7(2) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.8(1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.8(2) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.10(1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsections 56.10(1), (2) and (5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.10(2) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.10(3) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.10(4) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.10(5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.11(1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsections 56.11(2) and (2.1) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.11(5) of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall the government amendment to section 59 of the bill, subsection 56.12 of the act, carry? Same vote.
Shall section 59 of the bill, as amended, carry? Same vote.
Shall sections 60 and 61 of the bill carry? Same vote.
The PC motion to strike out section 62 of the bill is not in order.
Shall sections 62 to 64 of the bill, inclusive, carry? Same vote.
Shall the PC amendment to section 64.1 of the bill carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall section 65 of the bill carry? Same vote reversed.
Shall the bill, as amended, carry? All in favour, please indicate.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
Nays
Offer, Turnbull, Witmer.
The Chair: Shall the title carry? All those in favour, please indicate.
Ayes
Hope, Huget, Klopp, Lessard, Murdock (Sudbury), Wood.
Nays
Offer, Witmer, Turnbull.
The Chair: Pursuant to the order of the House, the Chair of the committee is required to report the bill to the House at the first available opportunity following the completion by the committee of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill, and the Chair will so do.
I thank you, all of the members of the committee and the staff, for being very cooperative and helpful in making this process function as smoothly as it could or should, perhaps, under all of the circumstances. I'm grateful to you and of course to the staff. We'll adjourn sine die.
The committee adjourned at 1633.