STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
COMITÉ PERMANENT DES ORGANISMES GOUVERNEMENTAUX
Wednesday 11 May 2005 Mercredi 11 mai 2005
The committee met at 1004 in room 151.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Chair (Mr. Tim Hudak): Well, folks, we'll call the committee to order. Welcome back to the standing committee on government agencies, Wednesday, May 11, 2005. We have some subcommittee reports; we have three intended appointees. Folks, I'm going to move other business to after the appointments review, if that's all right with everybody.
Mr. Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): Excellent.
The Chair: Good. Why don't we proceed? Our first order of business today is a report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, April 14, 2005.
Mr. Parsons: I would move acceptance.
The Chair: Mr. Parsons moves its adoption. Any discussion on that subcommittee report? Mr. Tascona?
Mr. Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I apologize. I was just going somewhere.
The Chair: No problem. On the floor, Mr. Parsons has moved the adoption of the subcommittee report of Thursday, April 14, 2005. All in favour of its adoption? Any opposed? It's carried.
The second order of business is a report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, April 28, 2005.
Mr. Parsons: I move adoption.
The Chair: Mr. Parsons moves its adoption. Any discussion on the minutes of Thursday, April 28? Seeing none, all in favour? Any opposed? It is carried.
A third order of business is a report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, May 5, 2005.
Mr. Parsons: I move adoption.
The Chair: Mr. Parsons moves its adoption. Any discussion on the subcommittee report of May 5? Seeing none, all in favour? Any opposed? It is carried.
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
The Chair: Extension of deadline: Pursuant to standing order 106(e), section 11, unanimous consent is required by the committee to extend the 30-day deadline for consideration of the following intended appointee: Shehnaz Alidina, an intended appointee to the Toronto Grant Review Team. I guess that's for the Trillium Foundation. Do we have unanimous consent to extend that deadline to June 21?
Mr. Parsons: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Unanimous consent. We'll extend that deadline and inform the parties.
Mr. Tascona, when you were out of the room, I moved other business till after appointments review. We have three intended appointees today, so we should get through those by 11:30 at the latest.
Mr. Tascona: That's a wise decision, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: I do what I can. I have a good team around me.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
RAY FERRARO
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Ray Ferraro, intended appointee as member, Council of the College of Chiropodists of Ontario.
The Chair: Our first intended appointee is Ray Ferraro. Mr. Ferraro is an intended appointed as a member of the Council of the College of Chiropodists of Ontario. Mr. Ferraro, please move forward. Welcome to the standing committee on government agencies, sir. Make yourself comfortable. Do you want a glass of water, a coffee or juice?
You may have seen how this committee operates. You're welcome to make an opening statement about your interest in the position, your qualifications, and then we divide up time for questions among the three different parties, 10 minutes each. Any time that you take up is taken away from the government members, and questioning in rotation will begin with the government followed by the official opposition and the third party. Mr. Ferraro, the floor is yours.
Mr. Ray Ferraro: Thank you for this opportunity. My name is Ray Ferraro. I was born in Guelph. I've lived there all my life. I'm a father of two children.
For the first part of most of my working life, I've been involved in real estate and property development, mostly in the commercial field. A year and a half ago, I was asked to run for council in the city of Guelph. I did and was successful in ward 2. So in that last year and a half, I've learned a lot about committee work. I'm on a couple of committees. The city of Guelph is a growing city. We have 12 members and I'm on three different committees. I like the committee structure per se -- the Roberts rules. In fact, I like the committee structure better than the council structure because you can be a little more candid and be a little more results-oriented, so to speak.
I've been involved in the Italian Club in Guelph, the Kiwanis Club and various activities. I'm well known in the Guelph area. My younger brother Rick was a member of the House here I think in the 1990s, with the Peterson government.
Basically, that's my background, unless somebody has something else to ask me.
The Chair: That's great and to the point, Mr. Ferraro. The members of the committee may very well have questions to ask of you, so we'll begin with the government side.
Mr. Parsons: Actually, we don't. This is a position where the candidate would represent the general public and I certainly think you have a sense of community service. We have no questions.
The Chair: The official opposition?
Mr. Tascona: Thank you, Mr. Ferraro, for attending today. I just have a couple of questions for you. Do you know Rick Ferraro?
Mr. Ferraro: Yes, I'm related. He's my younger brother, but he's bald.
Mr. Tascona: Yes. He was Liberal MPP from 1985 to 1995?
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Mr. Ferraro: That's right.
Mr. Tascona: Did he represent Guelph?
Mr. Ferraro: He did, under the Peterson government.
Mr. Tascona: In your application, you specifically said you wanted to be a part of this council, the Council of the College of Chiropodists of Ontario. Why did you choose this particular council?
Mr. Ferraro: One day on my e-mail I got a request from the Ministry of Health about whether I'd be interested in applying for another board. I thought about it at the time, with my time frames and with travelling into Toronto. I got back a week later to a Mr. Corbin, I think it was. At that time, that position was filled. It was for another board. He did mention that this was available, so I asked him to send me the information, and I was quite interested in this type of committee work. I don't know who put my name in. I would imagine it was the local office; I have no idea. I did not originally make the first overture.
Mr. Tascona: What do you mean by the local office?
Mr. Ferraro: My brother tells me that recommendations for appointments come from the local Liberal office. In this case, it would have been --
Mr. Tascona: The local MPP.
Mr. Ferraro: The local MPP, yes.
Mr. Tascona: That's Liz Sandals.
In terms of this, what's your knowledge of this particular council? Do you have some knowledge of what work they do?
Mr. Ferraro: No, I don't. I have a GP who lives beside me. He's been telling me about the importance of foot care in relation to lifestyles and that type of thing, and I've done some reading of the items that were sent to me. I can see that there are some items to be addressed by the committee. But I have no personal knowledge of this medical field, of chiropody and/or podiatry.
Mr. Tascona: OK. As part of your duties as a member of this college, you may serve on the disciplinary committee at some point. Do you have any adjudicative or mediation experience?
Mr. Ferraro: That's been my entire life, almost. Compromise and negotiations are a very big part of the work that I was in with construction and real estate, and being on some boards with the local councils. Particularly on the municipal level, that's basically what we do. We work from reports. I take the middle road, and it has seemed to work for me.
Mr. Tascona: I'll make one comment about Guelph: I think it's a very well planned community and certainly doing very well.
Mr. Ferraro: Most people think that, but we have a few --
Mr. Tascona: That may be related to some of the Italian background in the community, which I think is fairly strong, but I'll make no strong comments on that.
Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest): Is that a motion you're moving?
Mr. Tascona: You can move it, Lorenzo, if you wish.
I appreciate the work that you do on council, because I served on council for the city of Barrie, and the type of preparation that you do in that regard. You say you've been doing a bit of reading on this. Are there any things that you want to accomplish with this council, any objectives?
Mr. Ferraro: I think it would be presumptive of me to say that I have any answers, but when I read some of these descriptions in the Chiropody Act of 1991, and particularly when I see there was a memorandum of understanding a few years back between the two groups and I see that it was pulled, I find this very interesting. Like I say, if appointed, I would have to do a lot more research, but I find it interesting that the chiropody group can assess and the podiatrists can diagnose. I wonder what the real difference between assessing and diagnosing is. What I'm saying is that there seems to be a lot of grey area here. It looks like it's a committee that could do a lot of work to maybe crystallize and/or bring these different factions together.
Mr. Tascona: What's your knowledge of the difference between the two professions, chiropody and podiatry?
Mr. Ferraro: The basic difference, from what I've read, is that there are two extra functions that the podiatrist can do. He can do basic foot surgery and communicate his diagnosis, which I find an interesting combination of words, whereas a chiropodist cannot communicate, which I guess means he can't give a written appraisal to a GP. That's the only thing I can think of. In my mind, when I see words like "diagnose" and "assess," to me, that means the same thing.
One of the things I like about committee work is that I've gotten very attuned, in a year and a half on city council, when reports come in, to see what's not in the report. I always thought that special-interest groups were just developers until I got on council.
Mr. Tascona: That's a good point.
I just want to ask you, in terms of the time commitment, what do you understand your time commitment will be for this council?
Mr. Ferraro: I understood that it was twice a month on a semi-regular basis and also any special meetings that might be time-sensitive, and I'm certainly available for that.
Mr. Tascona: Thanks very much.
Ms. Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East): A number of the questions that I had have been asked. You mentioned in your initial remarks that you were asked to run for council. Who asked you?
Mr. Ferraro: My neighbours.
Ms. Horwath: Your neighbours asked you?
Mr. Ferraro: To clarify that, I spent 30 years on the other side of the counter, fighting with the city, so when I come home and tell my neighbours and my friends what the hell is going on -- I'm sorry; I shouldn't use that word.
The Chair: For the record, he apologized to Mr. Parsons.
Mr. Parsons: I've never heard that phrase before.
Mr. Ferraro: Very briefly, having 30 years of experience on the other side and seeing municipal politics unfolding and the town getting larger and the unrest and the dissatisfaction, I had a lot of people say, "You have the tools to run." So I did. I ran a low campaign, with no contributions, and got in.
Ms. Horwath: Great. I hear that you weren't initially interested in this particular committee, so do you have any experience or interest in the field of chiropody or podiatry at all?
Mr. Ferraro: My wife has foot problems.
Ms. Horwath: I was going to ask you how your feet are, but I thought that would be a little indelicate.
Mr. Ferraro: I have big feet, but so far they're good.
I find any type of committee work where you can make a contribution and do something, in this case under the health act -- the way I'm reading it, I would think most committees would formulate recommendations to the ministry and to the government for action. That's normally the way municipal politics work, and I do like that, because if you can get a consensus, you can contribute.
Ms. Horwath: You talked a little bit about your business experience and how that urged you to get active on council. Any controversies that have arisen as a result of that?
Mr. Ferraro: Oh, absolutely none. I have no holdings. I don't own property. I don't bring anything up that could be a potential -- it's reverse discrimination. I'm sure some of you people may have encountered that. I have to be lily white, because there are certain factions that look and say, "Oh, Ferraro is getting consideration." That's the reverse of that. We're a very well known family in the Guelph area, and that could not happen and would not happen.
Ms. Horwath: Because there was an article that our research staff pulled from July 2004, a headline from the Record indicating, "Ferraro's Tactics Inappropriate, Fellow Guelph Councillors Say." Can you explain to me what that was all about and how you dealt with it?
Mr. Ferraro: That's the George Cuff report. What happened -- I want to make this brief. We had a situation that was untenable to the new council. It revolved around the stranglehold on the municipal politics that certain people had.
We commissioned a gentleman from Alberta by the name of George Cuff, who was a specialist in municipal government, to do a corporate review of the city of Guelph, which had never been done in 30 years. The howls in the newspaper started. The unorthodox method that they referred to was, city council could not, we felt, as a board -- we were not going to go to the CAO at the time and say, "Would you please authorize us to have somebody investigate your department?" We did nothing illegal. What we did -- I was the ringleader. I brought up this petition on a notice of motion at a meeting in the public. The sum was less than $100,000, and the policy is that anything under $100,000, you don't have to ask for a request for proposal. We brought it up very quickly, and that's what the press, who have certain leanings, grabbed on. It became a very sensational thing, but it did accomplish what we wanted, and that was to get control of the politics back into the municipal area, where it hadn't been for a number of years.
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Ms. Horwath: OK. So when you say there was a stranglehold by certain people, you mean staff as opposed to the elected body?
Mr. Ferraro: Senior staff, that's right. I ran on that a year ago. What they were howling about was the procedure. The procedure was totally correct, except we didn't ask their permission. It's like a board of directors asking --
Ms. Horwath: I know. I come from municipal politics too; I get the picture. I appreciate your explanation. Reading the article, it's very difficult to determine exactly what was going on.
Mr. Ferraro: We have a wonderful newspaper. It was the Toronto Star, actually.
Ms. Horwath: We know about your brother's history. You're a member of the Liberal Party as well?
Mr. Ferraro: I am a member every time an election comes up. I notice there are items in here about card carrying. I just carry Visa cards. I have a cousin who's very influential in organizing, so every time there's an election, he sends me a card and asks me for my $20.
I have mainly voted Liberal. I have voted Conservative on occasion, because sometimes when the issues are similar -- we have a policy in a small town: "If I have a problem, who could I go to who would listen to me?"
Ms. Horwath: Have you ever made larger donations than the $20 fee to Liberal campaigns?
Mr. Ferraro: Never.
Ms. Horwath: Did you have any situations, when you were running the last time, in 2003, where prominent Liberals donated to your campaign?
Mr. Ferraro: No. I ran a campaign that cost $1,300. I had no contributions other than from my lawyer, who has been a long-time friend, and my brother Rick. That was it.
Ms. Horwath: My final question would be, is it your intention to continue on after this term on Guelph council? If you get re-elected, are you going to be running again and seek to continue running?
Mr. Ferraro: Yes.
Ms. Horwath: That's all.
The Chair: Mr. Ferraro, thank you very much for your appearance today. As you may know, we move to the concurrence votes after intended appointees are interviewed. You're welcome to stay. In about an hour's time, we will go to those votes.
PATRICK GOSSAGE
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Patrick Gossage, intended appointee as vice-chair, McMichael Canadian Art Collection board of trustees.
The Chair: Folks, our second interview is with Patrick Gossage, certainly no stranger to members of this committee. Mr. Gossage, welcome to the standing committee on government agencies. Mr. Gossage is an intended appointee as vice-chair to the McMichael Canadian Art Collection board of trustees -- one of my favourite boards, by the way, as a former Minister of Culture.
Ms. Monique M. Smith (Nipissing): Favouritism, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Not to the individual, although with all due respect, Mr. Gossage is one of my favourite --
Mr. Patrick Gossage: You lived through the fun times, didn't you?
The Chair: We're happy to have you here. You've seen the process: You're invited to make a statement about your interest and your qualifications for this position, and then all three parties will have an opportunity for questions for 10 minutes each, beginning with the official opposition in the cycle. Mr. Gossage, the floor is yours.
Mr. Gossage: I don't intend to blather on, although I seem to have a reputation for blathering on.
About 36 or 37 years ago, I was a young CBC television producer working in arts programming, and I was assigned to go up to the McMichael to see what was going on. It was just after the Robarts had arranged to have it transferred to the province. A.Y. Jackson was out there. The McMichaels had kind of adopted him; I don't know whether you remember that. He's buried there, along with a lot of other Group of Seven people.
There was old A.Y. greeting people, sitting around and being kind of a hero, and we did a piece with him. I went into the gallery, which was really the McMichaels' home. It was quite odd, really, because they had built a long, narrow corridor beside their house where they could display some of the art, particularly the Tom Thomson works, which they'd been collecting. It was really fascinating. I went down this long corridor, a low building, and there were these amazing Thomson sketches. There were 100 of them all along the wall. I was just blown away. I was already a fan of the Group of Seven, but I'd never seen his sketches before, which, as you all know, are just to die for.
Anyway, a lot of things happened in my life. About 12 years ago, I moved out to King. I'm a 905er; I bet there are no other 905ers here, are there? The great 905. That's too bad, because it's a rich area, and this is their gallery, really. A lot of you are not Toronto people, right?
Mr. Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): Thunder Bay.
Mr. David Orazietti (Sault Ste. Marie): Sault Ste. Marie.
Mr. Berardinetti: Scarborough.
Mr. Gossage: OK, well, there you are. So you know about the issues that confront the smaller galleries that really are local galleries. The McMichael has always tried and hoped that it would become a competitor of the Art Gallery of Ontario, which is dreaming in colour, in my view.
In any case -- just wandering on -- I spent a lot of my life in cultural promotion. When I was at the embassy in Washington, we brought down artists and singers and so on. We brought down CBC people, and we promoted Canadian culture in Washington. That was before they had this amazing building that Erickson built.
When I came back and started my own company in 1985, we took on a number of cultural clients. I was on the board of the Toronto Arts Council, and we did some work for the Toronto Arts Council. I worked for the Canada Council for several years to try to help it regain its financial health. I worked in various capacities with the CBC at that time, promoting Canadian programming.
The day came when, here we were in King, and I went around to the McMichael a few times and I thought, "Boy, it would be neat to be part of this." I heard that there was a place on the board and made some inquiries and applied, and here I am. The chair, Noreen Taylor, who is quite a woman, decided that she needed a vice-chair, and she asked if I could go through the process, which I did.
I guess this is, hopefully, the final curtain or the final curtain opener, because I really want to work hard. It's just around the corner, it's 10 minutes from my house. I love the place, and I want to help them promote and get new audiences and rebuild from the rather sad situation it has been in in the last few years. That's my statement.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Gossage. We'll begin any questions with the official opposition.
Mr. Tascona: Thank you, Mr. Gossage, for coming here today. I have watched you on television for many years and have always found you to be a fair commentator. I understand your commitment to the arts, and that's appreciated, because it certainly is a very important task, in terms of dealing with the arts and promoting that. I just want to say that from the outset.
I just want to ask you a few questions. I notice in your resumé -- and I don't know if you're still actively involved -- you put down that you're the president of Media Profile from 1985 to 2005. Are you still --
Mr. Gossage: Yes, I'm still the president.
Mr. Tascona: So it's ongoing.
Mr. Gossage: Yes, it's my company.
Mr. Tascona: OK, so what does your company do?
Mr. Gossage: It's a kind of a general-interest public relations firm, which has consumer clients, corporate clients. It's quite big, actually. It's about 35 people, and we're quite successful. I started it when I came back from my time in Washington, which was cut short by a change of government.
Mr. Tascona: So your company would be involved in lobbying, I take it?
Mr. Gossage: No, not at all.
Mr. Tascona: Not at all? So what type of work does it do, then?
Mr. Gossage: It's all strictly public relations. It's all getting media attention for our clients. It's promoting their interests with the public, not with politicians. Of course, I always say politicians read the press too, so in that respect I guess --
Mr. Tascona: That's true.
Mr. Gossage: I don't do lobbying at all.
Mr. Tascona: I notice that you were press secretary to Prime Minister Trudeau from 1976 to 1983.
Mr. Gossage: Yes, that's correct.
Mr. Tascona: Are you currently involved in the federal Liberal Party or the provincial Liberal Party?
Mr. Gossage: Federally, happily not. Provincially, no. In fact, the last time I gave blood for the Liberal Party, I was part of Lyn McLeod's leadership team.
Mr. Tascona: Are you a member of either party now?
Mr. Gossage: I'm a Liberal. I'm a member in my riding, yes.
Mr. Tascona: OK. What riding are you in?
Mr. Gossage: I'm in Greg's riding.
Mr. Tascona: Greg Sorbara's?
Mr. Gossage: Yes. Greg, happily, is a supporter of the McMichael.
Mr. Tascona: You've been a board member for a while now.
Mr. Gossage: Yes, for about six months, seven months.
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Mr. Tascona: What do you see as the major challenge facing the McMichael board over the coming year?
Mr. Gossage: From my point of view, it's to develop new audiences and to make it more of a cultural destination for people who live in the 905. I think we'll always have our slice of gallery-goers, who are all getting older, apparently, according to our surveys. So to me, the challenge is to develop it as a family destination and to do a lot more activities than just displaying art.
We're sort of between a rock and a hard place because we have to have good exhibitions. In June, we're bringing in the Jean Paul Lemieux exhibit, which will be much appreciated by the art-going public and hopefully by a lot of the public, who will just be blown away by Lemieux's strange landscapes.
It's getting the families who are in the 905. There's nearly -- what? -- 800,000 in York region and 220,000 in Vaughan. To my way of thinking, these are the people we should be trying to attract. They're all young families. To give them a cultural experience that's really engaging is, I think, its biggest challenge. As well as money, of course.
Mr. Tascona: That's right, and that's what my next point is. Do you think the current facility is physically adequate to not only preserve the current collection but also to do what you think is a goal of making it a family destination?
Mr. Gossage: I guess I have to be honest in front of this committee. It needs renovation. I suppose most of you have been out there and you know the big hall, for instance, that you enter when you come in; this big log hall is a very cold and sort of foreboding hall. It's not very good for receptions and fundraising events. It needs to be cleaned up and better lit. There are a lot of building issues because it's a log building.
We had a visioning exercise, and Charlie Hill, who is the curator of Canadian art at the National Gallery, came through. Of course, he looks around and he says, "Oh boy, I don't know" -- because remember, I told you about the halls. Well, two of the galleries are also long halls with low ceilings, and one could argue that for a first-class gallery, one might have to look down the road at renovations or perhaps the building of another gallery. That's beyond our ability to even dream about at this point.
If you asked me if it's a really proper gallery for the value of its collection, the answer is probably no. But for the purposes I was describing to you, it's fine.
Mr. Tascona: I understand. Can you tell me a bit about your thoughts regarding the direction the board should be taking concerning their acquisitions?
Mr. Gossage: There's been a lot of controversy about the board's ability to acquire what it would really like to acquire. But I think this current board is very respectful of the McMichael's mandate and the founder's -- we call him the founder -- concept of the gallery to keep it within the Canadian landscape tradition, to keep it accessible. "Accessible" is a big word for me. To me, "accessible" means I don't want to walk into the McMichael and see a hamburger. I think we have to differentiate ourselves from the AGO, which, of course, has lots of modern Canadian works and modern European works and so on and so forth. I think probably the acquisition strategy will remain within the famous list, which, by the way, is about 18, not just the group. So it's a pretty big list.
It's fascinating. Lawren Harris's family still has amazing sketches which Harris did in Europe when he was a young man. The other day, they just gave us seven or eight -- or we acquired them at a very low price. So Group of Seven stuff is still surfacing and still coming to the gallery. I would really like to see it being the absolute centre of 100% Canadian art, which focuses still on that great group and their successors.
Mr. Tascona: I appreciate what you're saying.
Mr. Gossage: It's hard, though, because we still have somebody representing Signe McMichael on the board, which is part of Bill 112. As you know, Robert died last year, and his widow has a representative who's fairly rigorous about sticking to the original founder's wishes. I don't think it's very restricting, to be honest with you.
Mr. Tascona: OK. Those are all the questions I have. Thanks very much.
Mr. Gossage: You know what? We all love them anyway, so what's going to attract audiences?
The Chair: Ms. Horwath.
Ms. Horwath: Good morning. It's my pleasure to meet you. I've never met you before.
Mr. Gossage: Thank you. I certainly know who you are.
Ms. Horwath: Thank you. I can certainly see your passion for the gallery, and that's excellent. You're fairly recent on the board. Looking through current board members, there are a couple of people who have been there a little bit longer than you have. What is it that got the chairperson to encourage you to take the vice-chair position as opposed to someone who might have been there a little bit longer?
Mr. Gossage: You'd have to ask her. I think promoting this gallery is absolutely key. Its attendance is at 100,000, and in the glory days it was at 200,000. There's only one other person with sort of promotional experience on the board, Ray Argyle, and I don't know when his term's up. I think she wanted somebody new. By the way, we have 23 seats, of which I guess 10 or whatever are filled. There's lots of room for new people. I don't know.
Ms. Horwath: Your particular background filled a niche that you see as being important for the future of the gallery, is it fair to say?
Mr. Gossage: Yes. I think I had lots of ideas about how to promote it more effectively. They're exploiting everything I know every day of the week.
Ms. Horwath: That's good. That's what you're there for.
Mr. Gossage: I just wrote a communications plan for them, for which I'd normally charge $7,000 or $8,000.
Ms. Horwath: You talked a little bit in your comments about the needs that the gallery has probably over some period of time in regard to renovations and different things like that. What role do you think the private sector has to take in the development of public art galleries and cultural attractions?
Mr. Gossage: Obviously, one would like to see our basic funding go up from $2.9 million to something a little bit closer to what our actual needs are, but our money-raising efforts have not been as effective as they perhaps could have been over the last couple of years, due to the changes and the worries about the mandate and the worries about Bill 112 and so on. In fact, I know wealthy people in our area who just stopped giving, so it's getting those people back and convincing them that the gallery is back on track, that it's got a good vision for its future, that it's professionally managed and so on. You've probably been on hospital foundations, right?
Ms. Horwath: No.
Mr. Gossage: Raised money for hospitals? No? Anyway, South Fork or South -- the big hospital in Newmarket has been hugely successful at raising money in its catchment area. There are a lot of people with money up there. In fact, there was a pig farmer in the Holland Marsh who wrote a cheque for $100,000. We have to tap into those people and say, "This is your gallery. This is the place you bring your friends and your kids. You know what? You've got to pony up too." Then there are all the horsey people up there who have tons of money. We haven't tapped into those people, and others are.
Ms. Horwath: It's interesting, because you mention Bill 112 and the changes that came with that and the controversy around that in -- I guess it was the year 2000.
Mr. Gossage: Yes, 2000.
Ms. Horwath: How has that affected the gallery?
Mr. Gossage: It had a devastating effect on it in the first year, the suit and everything. Mr. McMichael was reasserting his authority over the gallery, and people just said, "I don't need to give money to a place that is, in effect, being run by a founder who's a little" -- you know, he'd change his mind regularly and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, he kind of took over the gallery again, and that really turned a lot of people off. We in fact had to turn down money. Some corporations were lined up for the exhibition, and Robert decided we didn't want it, so we had to turn down the money. There was a real era of uncertainty, which I think we're now over because Noreen is -- well, we've turned the page, I think, although the bill is still in place.
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Ms. Horwath: Maybe the government members can take that under advisement and do something about that.
Mr. Gossage: The minister is very sympathetic, I should say. Will we get a new bill? I don't know, but if you care about culture, it's probably not a bad thing to support.
Ms. Horwath: True. Explain once again what your vision for the gallery is from here going forward.
Mr. Gossage: I see it as a cultural attraction and much more than just the art that's in the gallery, that we maintain the highest curatorial standards and people who care about gallery-going will still come, but that we have attractions that will appeal to families.
For instance, the restaurant has fallen into -- you know, the current restaurant operator just offers sandwiches and things. We could have a first-class restaurant there. We need more presence on the street. If you drive into Kleinburg, it's kind of hidden. We need all kinds of tweaks. We need all kinds of summer and fall events to really pull out families. They'll come into the gallery and they'll have a cultural experience as well. We're going to have summer festivals and that kind of thing.
There's 100 acres of absolutely gorgeous conservation area that's run by the Metropolitan Toronto region conservation area that goes down into the valley. Have you been there?
Ms. Horwath: No, I haven't.
Mr. Gossage: Oh, you better come.
Ms. Horwath: I'm going to. That's on my list of things to do, for sure.
Mr. Gossage: You'll love it. Bring your kids, nephews or nieces or whatever. Kids love it. By the way, we attract as many schoolchildren -- almost the same number of schoolchildren as go to ROM come to McMichael, so that has been done extremely well. They have great kids' programs there during the day. In fact, you're falling over kids when you go there during the week.
Ms. Horwath: That's great. And it is on my agenda of things to do. I have a couple of friends who have been urging me many times to find the time. So I do have that on my agenda.
When you got involved last year, what did you see as your time frame for participating on this board? How long did you think you would be there and feeling that you're accomplishing some of the things you're setting out to do?
Mr. Gossage: We had a situation when I arrived, which was a very difficult situation with the then current CEO who decided to leave, so we had to find a new CEO. Looking forward -- I love people who say, "I'm of an age where I can give it time." But it's true. My company is going well. I'm 65. I get my cheque. It's quite great, actually. I have time to give, and I give it a lot of time. I hope I'll be on for a couple of terms. I hope so, because, you know, it's my gallery. It's around the corner.
Ms. Horwath: Absolutely. OK. Thank you very much.
The Chair: To the government side.
Mr. Parsons: I grew up in a home where the centrepiece of our art collection was a velvet painting of four dogs playing poker.
Ms. Horwath: We had Elvis.
Mr. Gossage: Are you sure it wasn't the dogs around the table drinking and --
Mr. Parsons: They were playing poker around the table. Ours was the deluxe edition, I guess.
Mr. Gossage: OK.
Mr. Parsons: So we don't believe we're really qualified to ask questions. We're very impressed. Thank you.
Mr. Gossage: OK. Thanks.
The Chair: That might come back into --
Ms. Smith: I've been thinking I'm not qualified --
The Chair: The members on the government side look a little stunned. Is there anything else?
Mr. Parsons: They didn't realize what I was thinking, but they do now.
The Chair: There we go. Great.
Mr. Gossage, thank you very much for your presentation today. As you probably know, we'll move to the concurrence votes shortly after the next intended appointee. So please stick around.
Mr. Gossage: I should say that on June 8, we're opening Jean Paul Lemieux. Please see if you can come out and either let me know or, as an MPP, let the office know. You'd be more than welcome. It will be a good party and an amazing exhibition.
Interjection.
The Chair: Very kind. Thank you very much.
Mr. Gossage: June 8. Thanks a lot.
STANLEY CHOPTIANY
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Stanley Choptiany, intended appointee as member, city of Barrie Police Services Board.
The Chair: Our next intended appointee is Stanley Choptiany. Mr. Choptiany is a member of Mr. Tascona's riding, right? Barrie area?
Mr. Tascona: That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: He is an intended appointee as a member, the city of Barrie Police Services Board.
Mr. Choptiany, welcome to the standing committee on government agencies. You've been here in attendance from the drop of the gavel, so you've seen how the procedures work. You're welcome to make your opening statement and comments, and we'll begin any questions with the third party.
Mr. Stanley Choptiany: Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.
I believe strongly in the need for shared community responsibility as it pertains to the well-being of the members of our society. Accordingly, I've endeavoured to make contributions to my community in the areas where I have some expertise and interest.
I've lived in Barrie for over 25 years and watched it grow from a town of 40,000 to a city of well over 125,000. My experience as a school administrator, teacher and coach in several area high schools has enabled me to develop close links with hundreds of families.
My eight-year tenure as a member of the board of directors of the Barrie/South Simcoe United Way helped me understand what community services existed and what needs there are in our community. I was instrumental in developing school programs for students with social and addiction issues. Through those programs, I worked on a committee with the previous police chief Jack Delcourt and several community relations officers to better police support in schools.
My work as a board member of the Women and Children's Crisis Centre and my position with the school board as chair of the family violence committee again enabled me to work closely with Barrie Police Services to help coordinate services for battered women and for the children who experienced or witnessed acts of violence in the family.
My volunteer work with the Barrie Out of the Cold program has enabled me to better understand the situation of the homeless and extremely needy in our community and, as a team leader, I have a good understanding of the work the Barrie police do to support these individuals.
My volunteer and professional career has given me specific experience in working to prepare and present million-dollar budgets, do performance appraisals of the chief operating officers, develop meaningful community needs-based policies and clearly understand the strict limits that exist for board members.
I am currently working with a small citizens' group to bring wind turbines and alternate clean energy to the city and have had several initial promising meetings with representatives of the city of Barrie.
I believe I have a good understanding of the strengths and needs of our community, and I hope to be able to make further contributions by serving on the Barrie Police Services Board. Thank you.
The Chair: Outstanding, Mr. Choptiany. Thank you very much for your presentation and your interest in this position. Questions will begin with the third party.
Ms. Horwath: Good morning. I'm going to get the basics out of the way first. Are you a member of any particular political party?
Mr. Choptiany: I am now a member of the provincial Liberal Party. I probably was a 35-year member of the NDP, but in this last election I supported the Liberal candidate.
Ms. Horwath: Have you made donations to any political parties?
Mr. Choptiany: I did at the time of the election, a small donation, but I haven't continued that.
Ms. Horwath: When you were thinking about the possibility of applying for this appointment, did you seek any advice from anyone? What made you apply? What made you decide that this was the place where you could put your experience to work?
Mr. Choptiany: I narrowed it down to two areas. I retired three years ago from teaching, and I've always had an interest in being involved publicly. Besides some of the things I've mentioned, I've also sat on the Nottawasaga board of directors and worked for the conservation authority and some other groups.
But because I had time -- I've some expertise in community health; that's what my master's degree is in -- I applied, I guess, two years ago to several positions there, and I've kept an eye out on what areas I think I could contribute. There was nothing in the community health area that became open, but when the police services position became open, because I had such a good working relationship with the police previously, I thought I had some talents and some interest in serving with them.
Ms. Horwath: Did anyone in particular recommend it to you or suggest to you --
Mr. Choptiany: No. It's something that I kept an eye out in the public appointments Web site.
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Ms. Horwath: I was interested in looking at your resumé and even the few comments that you've made as introductory remarks around your family violence prevention program. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I'm just curious.
Mr. Choptiany: From a school standpoint, we were realizing -- and this is going back 10, 12 years, maybe even 15 years -- that kids were coming to school and, as teachers or as a school, you'd be asking the students for homework or you'd be asking them why they were acting out, and certainly in my position as a vice-principal I got to see lots of kids in need. What came forward in many of those stories were, "Mom and dad had a fight. Mom got beat up. I got beat up. My mom and I went to the shelter last night." Kids were coming to school with horrendous experiences. As a school system, we weren't recognizing that these kids were coming with that baggage. We were saying things like, "You're five minutes late" and you'd give them detention, things like that, "Why isn't your homework done?"
When we looked at the next stages, we realized that when students went to the shelter, one of the difficult things from within the school board itself was that the shelter had a physical presence. It was close to one school. The kids were transferred out of their home school and would be re-enrolled in a local elementary school, which was difficult, to say the least, because those kids lose their friend base, they lose their support base; not only had they lost their homes, they've lost all their connections.
So we worked with the school first, and that was my work with the family violence committee within the school boards, to take a look at whether we could alter busing so that those kids could stay at their home school and whether we could support them within the school so that they could get counselling services or their teachers would know from a confidential standpoint what was happening to these children.
But the next area that was important was to work with the police, because most often the police were involved in the direct incident, and those kids sometimes had to be interviewed or see their moms go through a difficult court process. It was a growth experience for the police to develop a sensitivity and develop, I think, a very good program of support for the women and that got my interest to be involved with the Women and Children's Crisis Centre, so I worked to be on the board to carry that part through.
Ms. Horwath: It sounds like an excellent program. That still exists now in the community, and the police are still active with the school board and the shelters?
Mr. Choptiany: Yes. Not only do they do a continuing excellent job, but they've evolved in their approach and they've done, I think, a really positive job through the years.
Ms. Horwath: Are there any areas that you see from your experience in community, other than this one, that require more attention from the Barrie police?
Mr. Choptiany: There are questions I will ask around visible minorities, because when I first came to Barrie -- pardon the expression, but we used to say this was "white sliced bread." In a school of 2,000, you might have one or two people of colour. That's no longer the situation in the schools and it's no longer the situation in our community, but it's much more reflective of what Canada is composed of. It would be worthwhile taking a look at how the Barrie Police Services addresses those needs. We have some officers of colour and visible minorities, but are they serving the needs of the actual community? What are the demographics? I don't get a sense that there's a problem, but it's worthwhile doing the background checks and the homework to make sure we are proactive in that particular area.
Ms. Horwath: Do you know what the crime stats are in Barrie? What are the major issues in terms of the statistical analysis of crime?
Mr. Choptiany: I don't have specific figures in my mind, but we've gone from small crime to now large crime. Certainly the Molson's growing operation was an indication that it's no longer local crime. We've got large-scale operations going in. We have some local issues on the main street of town after 10 o'clock at night. When you read the newspapers, there's nothing that stands out in a way that's different from the Toronto papers, except I don't think we have very many guns, which is a nice situation.
Ms. Horwath: All right. That's it, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The Chair: To the government member, Mr. Gravelle.
Mr. Gravelle: Very satisfied.
The Chair: Very satisfied. OK, thank you, folks.
To the official opposition: Mr. Tascona.
Mr. Tascona: Thanks for coming here today, Stanley. I appreciate your candid views so far based on the questions from Ms. Horwath. I just want to ask you, do you have an opinion with respect to police associations being involved in the election process?
Mr. Choptiany: Well, I do. As individuals, I think they have full rights to support whom they would like to support, but as a large group, they're in a unique position where not only do they have to know the law, they have to enforce the law. If they are put in a position where they could influence how laws were made or could lobby for specific laws, I would see that as a conflict of interest. I have some reservations around the police unions supporting specific candidates or working within a lobby framework. I don't have any issues from an individual standpoint.
Mr. Tascona: OK. In your resumé, you have a number of references here. A chap by the name of Barry Green: Can you tell me something about him?
Mr. Choptiany: Barry is one half of GreGor construction. Paul Gordon's the other half. They're put together to be GreGor. Barry's going to --
Mr. Tascona: That's fine. I know Barry. I just want to make sure, because the spelling was a little different than what I know it as. Sandy Thurston?
Mr. Choptiany: Sandy was the executive director for the Barrie/South Simcoe United Way when I was a member and chair of the board.
Mr. Tascona: Bill Lawrence?
Mr. Choptiany: Bill has been a family friend for -- actually the first family friend since I moved to Barrie and someone who could certainly assess my strengths and weaknesses. We've been canoe buddies for years.
Mr. Tascona: That's great. Police services in Barrie, as you know, are provided by the municipal police force, and the chief of police is Wayne Frechette. I believe you know Wayne?
Mr. Choptiany: Yes.
Mr. Tascona: In the city of Barrie, there are a number of issues I want to go through with you. As in many municipalities, the cost of policing in the city of Barrie has been climbing steadily, In 2001, the total police budget was $15.4 million; in 2005, it was $27.2 million. So the budget increased by more than 23% in the last fiscal year. There was a debate in 1998 with respect to OPP policing, and that was rejected by city council. According to the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services, the number of municipal police forces is at 63 to date. Do you have any views on how Barrie can contain rising police costs, and do you believe the city should reconsider contracting police?
Mr. Choptiany: When I looked at those figures, one of the things that struck me was that, in 2001, the population of Barrie was just around 100,000 in terms of what is posted, and now it's posted at about 125,000. The reality is it's much higher. Just that increase in population alone represents about a 20% to 25% increase. So, in some ways, yes, the budget has increased dramatically, but in other ways it has kept pace with the population.
Certainly the nature of crime has changed so that the expense of crime has changed. I don't see a way of cutting services as a solution. I would see a strong statement saying, "We need this kind of budget, and we need to look for ways of supporting that kind of budget." The Liberal government has made a statement about paying half of the costs for new officers. I would certainly like to see us press the government to say, "Look, Barrie has some special needs. Maybe we need to extend provincial funding in a way that can support us."
With respect to the OPP, I was vice-principal at Banting when the city of Alliston changed over their police services from a local police situation to the OPP.
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When I worked with the Alliston police, it was phenomenal: The police officers knew the community, they knew the kids, they knew their parents, they knew where drugs were coming from, they knew who had stolen goods. It was a case of "I know this person, I know 10 others." The effectiveness was fabulous.
When we changed to the OPP, even though some of the officers from the local force became OPP officers, we lost that connection. The effectiveness, the day-to-day policing, where you know the needs of the individuals, was really diminished.
So I have some concerns that, yes, you can look at black-and-white funding and, yes, we could probably service the police with OPP in Barrie for a smaller cost, but I think we would lose that very, very important community connection that they've developed in a very wonderful way in Barrie.
Mr. Tascona: Red-light cameras: In August 2004, the province announced that municipalities could use cameras to fine drivers who run red lights. In September 2004, Barrie city council asked its police service for an opinion on the feasibility of installing cameras at various intersections. Police chief Wayne Frechette reported in November, expressing concerns about the costs of the cameras and suggested that directed traffic enforcement -- police units monitoring problem intersections and school zones -- works better. That's obviously before they got rid of option 4. The city suspended plans to adopt red-light technology in April 2005. Do you support the adoption of red-light cameras?
Mr. Choptiany: No, I don't. When I come down and drive in Toronto --
Mr. Tascona: That's all right. I want to go through a few more. So that's your answer; that's good.
Option 4: In November 2004, Monte Kwinter announced that the program would be cancelled. Under Barrie's option 4 program, drivers were charged a $145 administrative fee, which generated about $1.1 million in revenue annually, which is a net revenue of $650,000. Barrie's police chief, Wayne Frechette, said that the cancellation of the program would remove a valuable source of revenue and could affect the ability of the police service to provide adequate traffic enforcement. In cancelling option 4, Minister Kwinter argued that the program was unevenly applied across the province. Do you believe that the cancellation of the option 4 program will or could affect the ability of the Barrie Police Service to provide adequate traffic enforcement?
Mr. Choptiany: I'd see it as a situation where you had a program where people were unequal before the law. I think that's a greater need to correct than the $450,000 loss. So I think that's a situation where that source of income, while the money is needed, should be stopped. I agree with the cancellation of option 4. If you look to Barrie's streets, there are a whole bunch of speed traps everywhere. So there are other sources of income that I think they're making up for.
Mr. Tascona: I hear you.
On public complaints: In 1997, the independent police complaints commission was abolished and replaced with a system under which public complaints are handled, in the first instance, by the police force that is the subject of the complaint.
The LeSage report has come out since then, suggesting and recommending to the Attorney General a different approach to deal with that. The LeSage report has drawn some criticism from municipal police forces. For example, Windsor Police Chief Glenn Stannard has warned that a civilian complaint system will be more costly and that the police will have little trust in it.
The Ontario government has promised to introduce legislation by the end of this year. Do you have an opinion on the public complaints process, whether the status quo should be kept or we should be moving to the model that Justice LeSage has said?
Mr. Choptiany: Well, I did a lot of homework on this, and the key factor here -- I know we're short on time -- is transparency. It's not just being transparent, but being perceived to be transparent. When I took a look at how many pages and how many sections were deleted in the legislation when the new legislation came in 1997, there's a question in my mind about deletion of transparency. I noticed that there was a Bill 220, which Mr. Hampton put forward, and that did not go ahead. That would have reinstated that process.
I think there's a strong belief within the government circles that we do need to either return to a system that worked or to develop a new system, using Judge LeSage's recommendations, that maintains a greater transparency.
Mr. Tascona: I think I understand your point on that, and I appreciate that.
Just one final question: What would be your major goal with respect to being on the Barrie Police Services Board? What would you want to accomplish?
Mr. Choptiany: I feel very good about our police services, but one of the things that has been sort of a driving force for me is to be able to see that people are in tune with meeting community needs. It's a diverse community. I think our police services do a good job, but I think there's a way to make sure that we keep listening and, as the needs evolve, that we respond proactively.
Mr. Tascona: I want to thank you for coming here today. I appreciate it.
The Chair: Mr. Choptiany, thank you very much for your presentation. Please stick around and make yourself comfortable as we move to the next part of our agenda, which is the concurrence votes.
In the order that we did the interviews, we will now consider the intended appointment of Ray Ferraro, intended appointee as member, Council of the College of Chiropodists of Ontario.
Mr. Parsons: I would move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr. Parsons moves concurrence. Is there any discussion on Mr. Ferraro's intended appointment? Seeing none, all those in favour? Any opposed? It is carried. Congratulations to Mr. Ferraro.
We will now consider the intended appointment of Patrick Gossage, intended appointee as vice-chair, McMichael Canadian Art Collection board of trustees.
Mr. Parsons: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr. Parsons moves concurrence. Any discussion? All those in favour? Any opposed? Mr. Gossage, it's carried. Congratulations on the appointment as vice-chair. Continued success at McMichael.
We will now consider the intended appointment of Stanley Choptiany, intended appointee as member, city of Barrie Police Services Board.
Mr. Parsons: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr. Parsons moves concurrence. Discussion? All those in favour? Any opposed? It's also carried. Mr. Choptiany, congratulations and all the best at the Barrie Police Services Board.
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
The Chair: Folks, as we discussed at the beginning, we will now move to other business.
The Chair has an item. I will wait and see if other members have other business first.
Mr. Tascona: I just want to recognize that in the package today you had received a letter from the Honourable Dwight Duncan, government House leader, with respect to the standing committee review of the intended appointments for the local health integration networks. He's assuring you that the government is committed to our review. I know there are going to be some reviews with respect to this.
I just want to point out that I did receive something from the Ministry of Health on this particular issue. As you know, the LHINs haven't really been established, though the Speaker has ruled that it's in order that these orders in council are going to be reviewed.
I received an e-mail on May 4 from Scott Lovell, who is a caucus relations and MPP liaison in the minister's office, Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care. What he indicated in this is that:
"1. The government intends that LHINs would be established by letters patent under the Corporations Act. Under section 4 of the act, at least three people must apply for incorporation of a corporation, and sections 121 and 284 of the act provide that, upon incorporation, those applicants become the first members and directors of the LHIN corporation.
"2. The government intends that the letters patent would provide that only persons who are nominated by an order in council of the Lieutenant Governor in Council may be members and directors of the LHIN. The initial term of the founding board members would be up to three years.
"3. Section 106(e) of the standing orders of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario provides that the standing committee on government agencies," which we are, "is empowered to review all intended appointments by the Lieutenant Governor in Council to an agency where the government makes some or all of the appointments and where an OIC provides that the term is more than 12 months.
"4. The government has selected 42 people (three people per LHIN) as its nominees as the first members and directors for the 14 LHINs. If the standing committee concurs with these nominations, these candidates would apply for the letters patent of their respective LHINs under the Corporations Act and, as described above, would become the first members and directors of the LHINs. As such, the government is making an `intended appointment' to an agency or corporation and has submitted the names of the intended directors to the standing committee for its review. While the formal mechanism to effect this result is a `nomination' by the Lieutenant Governor in Council under the Corporations Act (as opposed to an `appointment'), the government considers that this is effectively the same and the standing order applies."
So we're going to be reviewing the LHIN appointees. The third party and our party have made some selections. I just want to point out that we want to review this agency, the LHINs, once they're formally established. It would appear that the LHINs are not established at this point in time and that they need the appointees to make this happen. But I want to be on record, because on March 30 I made a request, as a motion, to review the LHINs. That was defeated by this committee because of the reasons that were provided by the government party, but quite clearly, the LHINs aren't established. This might not happen for a number of months, if not in this year. So I want to keep that on the record that we will want to review the LHINs as a part of our mandate for this committee. I want that on the record, and I want Mr. Parsons to take that back to his government House leader that that's our intention.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Tascona.
Any further comment on Mr. Tascona's other business? Seeing none, do any other members of the committee have other business?
I have a Chair's item. Members may know we do have a bit of a backlog now on intended appointees. I believe there are 22 individuals, intended appointees who have been called by various members of the committee, the vast majority of whom, but not exclusively, are for the LHINs.
This committee is entitled to meet on Wednesday mornings while the House is in session. I propose to extend the meetings from 9 a.m. until 12 p.m. to try to knock down that backlog. As members know, we can always extend by unanimous consent the 30-day period for an intended appointee who has been circled to come before the committee, but I would rather, in fairness to all individuals concerned, try to get those done within the 30 days as much as possible.
So, for our meetings upcoming, which will be, if I have my dates correct, May 18, June 1 and June 8, we will meet from 9 a.m. until noon. The 25th, of course, is constituency week, and I've not seen much support from members to meet in constituency week, especially those who are travelling from greater distances.
I'm also proposing that the subcommittee convene at noon on June 1, following our June 1 meeting, to take a look at how the backlog is, if we've worked toward eliminating it or if it's become longer. Then we'll have to consider additional hearings either in June or the summer to defeat that backlog.
Mr. Tascona: Is lunch going to be served, Mr. Chairman?
The Chair: We'll put that in the clerk's hands, so I don't have to make any unpopular decisions.
Mr. Parsons: I certainly support that suggestion.
The Chair: Good. Anybody else?
Mr. Tascona: I'm quite prepared to deal with that wise observation, Mr. Chairman. I think we'll deal with it.
The Chair: Very good. So the meeting will next convene on May 18 at the same time, the same place -- sorry, 9 a.m.
Interjection.
The Chair: What did I just say? Let me just say that one more time -- 9 a.m. -- and try to make a hit at the backlog.
Folks, thanks very much. This meeting is adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1113.
CONTENTS
Wednesday 11 May 2005
Subcommittee reports A-387
Committee business A-387
Intended appointments A-387
Mr. Ray Ferraro
Mr. Patrick Gossage
Mr. Stanley Choptiany
Committee business A-397
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président
Mr. Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente
Ms. Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East / Hamilton-Est ND)
Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest / Scarborough-Sud-Ouest L)
Mr. Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North / Thunder Bay-Superior-Nord L)
Ms. Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East / Hamilton-Est ND)
Mr. Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln PC)
Mr. David Orazietti (Sault Ste. Marie L)
Mr. Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings L)
Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock PC)
Ms. Monique M. Smith (Nipissing L)
Mr. Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford PC)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms. Susan Sourial
Staff / Personnel
Ms. Carrie Hull, research
officer,
Research and Information Services