STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
COMITÉ PERMANENT DES ORGANISMES GOUVERNEMENTAUX
Wednesday 8 December 2004 Mercredi 8 décembre 2004
INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
WALTER CONNELL
The committee met at 1008 in room 151.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Chair (Mr Tim Hudak): Welcome to the standing committee on government agencies, and I welcome our nominated appointees.
I'm going to begin with some reports. We have first to consider the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, November 25, 2004.
Mr Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest): I move adoption.
The Chair: Thank you, sir. Any comments on the subcommittee's report of November 25? Seeing no comments, all in favour of its adoption? Any opposed? It is carried.
Our next order of business is the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, December 2, 2004.
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I would move that one, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Any comments, discussions or questions on the report's contents? Seeing none, all in favour? Any opposed? It's carried.
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
The Chair: The next topic is extension of Public Appointments Secretariat certificate deadlines. Pursuant to standing order 106(e)11, unanimous consent is required by the committee to extend the 30-day deadline for consideration of the following intended appointee: Anne M. Holbrook. Anne is the intended appointee to the Drug Quality and Therapeutics Committee, the infamous DQTC. Any comments or discussion on this? Do we have unanimous consent to extend this deadline to January 18, 2005?
Ms Monique M. Smith (Nipissing): We're voting, aren't we?
The Chair: I believe I need unanimous consent, so if one member says no, it's no.
Mr Tascona: Do we not sign off on it?
The Clerk of the Committee (Ms Susan Sourial): If we don't have a meeting, it would be done through the mail, but because we have a meeting and the deadline is coming up --
Mr Tascona: We have no problem with that.
The Chair: Ms Horwath? Do any members of the government have any problems? So we have unanimous consent for the extension? Great. Thank you very much, folks. We will give out the proper notifications of such. That's the only one I have. There will be others through the regular process next week.
Any other business before I move on to Mr Connell?
Mr Tascona: When are we meeting again?
The Chair: It should be next Wednesday, same time, same place.
Mr Tascona: So we're going to be meeting on December 15.
The Chair: For Wednesday, December 15, I understand we only have one intended appointee who has been called for that meeting, so the plan is to start at 10:30 as opposed to 10. Thank you to the clerk.
Mr Tascona: Who has been called, Mr Chair?
Ms Smith: Hamlin Grange has been called, and it's their call.
Mr Tascona: Who's the Chair of the meeting? Chairman, is it Hamlin Grange?
The Chair: Are you questioning the Chair?
Mr Tascona: No. Monique is definitely right. Is that correct, Mr Chairman?
The Chair: I apologize. I believe that information is correct, that he is the only intended appointee for next week.
Interjection.
The Chair: No, I was just making up excuses. You caught me. I won't lie on Hansard. But I do appreciate the card for my birthday last month.
Any other business, folks? No. Very good. Let's move on to the selected intended appointees.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
WALTER CONNELL
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Walter Connell, intended appointee as member, Council of the College of Denturists of Ontario.
The Chair: Our first appointee is Mr Walter Connell. Mr Connell is an intended appointee as a member of the Council of the College of Denturists of Ontario. Mr Connell, welcome to the committee. Make yourself comfortable. I ask you, if you so please, to make a statement about yourself, your interest in the committee, and then we'll do a rotation of questions from any of the committee members, beginning with the third party, the New Democratic Party, and we'll split the time into 10 minutes per party. Mr Connell, the floor is yours.
Mr Walter Connell: Thank you, distinguished Chair and members of this committee. Good morning. Thank you very much for allowing me to attend this hearing. I put my name forward to become a member of the College of Denturists. I'd just like to remind you too that Toronto is my hometown and, strange as it may seem, this province, Ontario, is my home province. That's the way geography works.
I've lived and worked all across Canada, working much of my life in radio and television, in news in particular, and I consider myself a coast-to-coast Canadian.
As a matter of fact, I've worked for 10 years here at the Ontario Legislature as a propagandist. The official title was something like information officer or media liaison. I should add too -- I just remembered; I saw the names on the board out there -- that Peter Gow, the first provincial secretary, is one of my ancestors, from the Guelph area; and Ray Connell, the minister, who used to call himself the janitor to the province, was the Minister of Municipal Affairs -- municipal waste, I guess.
My introduction to Queen's Park, though, was through Allan K. McLean, the one-time Speaker of the House, at that time member for Simcoe East. Al gave me full credit for my work ethic despite the fact that I had run as a federal Liberal -- that was in the ill-fated election of 1979 -- in Simcoe North.
I served two terms as a school trustee for the Simcoe County Public School Board, and I was selected by my peers to sit for the Ontario Public School Boards' Association as a trustee. As a trustee I was appointed political liaison, much to the chagrin of one cohort of mine from Orillia; she thought she was entitled to it. I was also given an award by the Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario for my work on education issues. Don't get too specific on that, Joe; I'm a little foggy on it myself, but it's legit. This is an award usually reserved for board superintendents, and it was one of the proudest moments of my life to get that.
Now, you may ask what wonderful things I am doing for myself at this stage in my life. Well, I'm a card-carrying member of ACTRA. I've done three movies and a fair number of radio and television commercials, national, American and European. For your entertainment, I tap-danced through an IKEA commercial for Germany and I'd never had a lesson in my life. It took me four hours of tap-dancing to get about four seconds on the air. I mention that to illustrate that I am the type of person who, when appointed to a task, will get the job done.
I support good government and relish the idea of being a small part of it. I thank you for your audience and your rapt attention.
The Chair: Thank you very much for your very interesting and entertaining presentation. We'll begin any questions or repartee with Ms Horwath from the third party.
Ms Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East): Good morning, and welcome. I want to ask you, first of all, if you can just give us some brief outline of your knowledge of the profession of denturism.
Mr Connell: Well, I know what a denturist does. They fit artificial teeth -- false teeth, if you will -- usually on the prescription of a dentist; I realize that. I don't know in detail what denturists do, what they're up to. But I hope to learn that; I'm a fairly quick study.
Ms Horwath: What particularly motivated you to apply for this position with this college?
Mr Connell: As I mentioned, I like the idea of being part of good government, even a small part, and that's what it would be. It's nice to be involved with perhaps some legislation that will have some teeth in it -- I couldn't resist that.
But I do know what it's all about. I enjoy it. I enjoy politics in particular, as Joe well knows.
Ms Horwath: More to my point, there are many different colleges, for example, in the health professions that you might have been interested in applying for, but I believe that in the letter you provided you did specifically indicate your interest in this one. Is there a reason? Was this one suggested to you by someone?
Mr Connell: Yes.
Ms Horwath: May I ask who suggested this one to you?
Mr Connell: Somebody in the minister's office: Gerry Hawes, I believe. I don't know whether he mentioned it first to me, but I thought, "Well, I can get in there and" -- as I say, point me to the job and I'll get it done.
Ms Horwath: Is it fair to say, then, that you were more or less recruited for the position?
Mr Connell: Yes, I guess you could say that.
Ms Horwath: You mentioned briefly that you knew a little bit about denturism and talked about your understanding that the work needs to be approved by a dentist. In fact, there were some issues in that regard not too long ago, where the denturists and dental hygienists made a submission to the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care. They wanted to have the ability to undertake radiograms and do that work without being supervised by a dentist. Do you have any opinion on that matter?
Mr Connell: At this stage, I wouldn't have a qualified opinion, but I'd liken it to the days when they used to X-ray your feet for shoes and every kid was going and looking at the bones in their feet through their shoes. You wouldn't remember that; that was popular perhaps in Joe's time.
I'm not sure what they do. I don't really have enough knowledge of it, whether they are qualified to do X-rays. I think most hygienists do X-rays, whether it's on the dentist's orders or they just look and tell you that you need an X-ray.
Ms Horwath: OK. Are you aware that the committee actually does a lot of its work through subcommittees, and if so, do you have any interest in any of the particular subcommittees that operate under the college?
Mr Connell: No interest in particular, but I'm willing to look at whatever they have available.
Ms Horwath: Could you name for me any of the committees that exist?
Mr Connell: Under the denturists? No, as a matter of fact, I can't.
Ms Horwath: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Those are all my questions.
The Chair: To the government: Mr Berardinetti?
Mr Berardinetti: No questions; just to thank you for coming forward today. I noticed on your resumé that you were the first reporter to officially identify John Lennon as a murder victim in New York City, I guess in 1980, on this date.
Mr Connell: I didn't realize that. On this very date?
Mr Berardinetti: December 8, yes.
Mr Connell: That was a miracle. I picked up the telephone -- I was working at CKO -- and I called the right precinct, and the sergeant, who was willing to talk to a Canadian, was willing to talk. I was flabbergasted. We had it running for 20 minutes before broadcast news officially declared him dead. And I'm not even a Beatles fan.
The Chair: Well, you were doing well, Mr Connell, until you went after the Beatles all of a sudden.
Mr Connell: Why not?
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The Chair: Any other questions from the government members? Then to the official opposition.
Mr Tascona: Thank you, Walter, for being here. Certainly you haven't lost any of your touch from your television days.
I just want to ask you about the position. Were you approached by anybody about this position, or did you directly want this position?
Mr Connell: No, I put out my resumé, I put out my feelers. I was looking for something to do; my television show had vanished, so I was looking for something to do, something to keep busy at, something I could take an interest in.
Mr Tascona: Who did you speak to in the government about this position?
Mr Connell: I spoke first with Gerry Hawes, and then perhaps --
Mr Tascona: Who's that?
Mr Connell: Gerry Hawes works in the minister's office.
Mr Tascona: The Minister of Health?
Mr Connell: Yes.
Mr Tascona: Who's Gerry Hawes?
Mr Connell: He's an Orillia man. I worked with him before on Mariposa Folk Festival, and I knew he was connected with the Ministry of Health.
Mr Tascona: Did he used to work for Paul DeVilliers, the Liberal MP up there?
Mr Connell: I believe so. I don't have Gerry's resumé in front of me, but I believe he did.
Mr Tascona: And you approached him, or did he approach you?
Mr Connell: I approached him initially.
Mr Tascona: And did you specify your interest in "anything," or was it this?
Mr Connell: You were right the first time: anything. I was just looking to see what was available and what I could perhaps make a contribution to.
Mr Tascona: And you're pleased with this position?
Mr Connell: Yes.
Mr Tascona: Looking at your resumé, it says that from 1985 to 1995 you were an information officer at the Legislative Assembly at Queen's Park, and you make a reference to Al McLean, who I think was the member for Simcoe North from 1981 until 2000, or perhaps 1999. Did you work for Al McLean?
Mr Connell: Yes. I worked for the Legislative Assembly, attached to Al. He didn't think I had enough to do, so I took on the duties of looking after Earl Rowe, who was the predecessor in your riding.
Mr Tascona: Simcoe Centre.
Mr Connell: Yes, but Al was in Simcoe East at that time; I think I put Simcoe East in my commentary. That's where he was at that time.
Mr Tascona: OK. In that period of time -- Earl Rowe was no longer the member as of 1987. Who did you work for after 1987?
Mr Connell: I worked for the whole PC caucus.
Mr Tascona: OK, PCRS. And you worked for them until 1995?
Mr Connell: Yes.
Mr Tascona: So that's where you came up with some of the statements you mention in the 1985 to 1995 period, which I thought were very clever.
Mr Connell: What was that?
Mr Tascona: Well, you have one here that says, "One example: Since this government came to power all roads in Ontario are going downhill." Was that the Liberal government or the NDP government you were referring to?
Mr Connell: Golly, I can't be sure at this time.
Mr Tascona: I won't hold you to it.
Mr Connell: I feel like Wayne Gretzky, though: No matter whether I'm playing for the Los Angeles Kings, I take my best shot and score as many goals as I can. That's the way I operate. Al realized that too, and he did take quite a bit of heat for hiring me.
Mr Tascona: I understand that, in terms of working down here.
This position: What have you been told about it, in terms of what you're going to be required to do?
Mr Connell: It meets one or two days a month. There's so much happening in health care right now that it's going to be -- I don't know whether this particular job is going to be that involved, but there is so much happening in X-rays, as Andrea mentioned earlier. The X-ray part of it will come up again, whether they should be allowed to do that, and that needs a good look. I guess it's one of those things where you can use your talent or ideas to think outside the box, to quote a federal Liberal Prime Minister.
Mr Tascona: Which one was that?
Mr Connell: The current one, Paul Martin.
Mr Tascona: Oh, sorry. The denturists act deals with denturists and dental hygienists, from what I understand. Last week we dealt with Bill 116. It was a private member's bill put forth by Jim Flaherty, the member for Whitby-Ajax, with respect to expanding the role a dental hygienist can play in terms of providing their services. Are you familiar with that at all?
Mr Connell: No, I'm not familiar with Mr Flaherty's bill.
Mr Tascona: You may want to become familiar with that, because it certainly appears to be becoming an issue, alongside what's happening here in terms of radiographs and the role dental hygienists would play in terms of their field of expertise.
Is there anything you specifically think you want to accomplish while you serve on this council?
Mr Connell: I don't have enough detail about what I'm going for. It's like if you're hunting you want to get a bull moose, I guess. I don't know; I'm not a hunter. If you want to fish, you fish for a shark.
Mr Tascona: You live in Coldwater, right?
Mr Connell: Yes.
Mr Tascona: Any issues up in Simcoe North concerning this particular area that you're aware of?
Mr Connell: No, but I probably have one of the best dentists in Ontario, and I will openly consult with her to see what the denturists need and get her point of view.
Mr Tascona: I have no further questions. It's good to see you, Walter. Certainly you would be able to contribute to the betterment of this province.
Mr Connell: Thanks, Joe. I appreciate that.
The Chair: Mr Connell, if you do pass concurrence, we look forward to some lively press releases from the denturists. They've been a little dull lately, their press releases.
Mr Connell: I major in press releases, as your wife would know.
The Chair: You've been doing your research. There you go, sir.
Mr Connell, you probably know the procedure: We go through all the intended appointees first and then we move to concurrence shortly thereafter. So probably in about an hour or so I'll be doing the vote on the committee's decisions.
Thank you for your time, sir: an excellent presentation. We look forward to that IKEA commercial, if we have to watch German TV or what have you.
Mr Connell: That was a scream.
SUE WILSON
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Sue Wilson, intended appointee as chair, Trillium Gift of Life Network board of directors.
The Chair: The next intended appointee is Sue Wilson. Ms Wilson, welcome to the committee. Ms Wilson is the intended appointee as chair of the Trillium Gift of Life Network board of directors and is currently serving as the interim president and CEO of same. If you don't mind, even for the Chair's benefit, one thing I missed is whether you're maintaining all those positions or simply as chair. You're welcome to make a presentation, as you see fit, about your skills and your plans for the time ahead. We'll begin any questions with the government members. Ms Wilson, the floor is yours.
Ms Sue Wilson: Thank you very much. Good morning and thank you to the members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to meet with you today to discuss my proposed reappointment to the board of the Trillium Gift of Life Network and the appointment as chair of this board.
This morning, as we meet in this room, there are 1,870 Ontarians on the waiting list for transplantation. Some 1,300 of these individuals are waiting for a kidney transplant, and our experience shows that 100 of these individuals on the waiting list will die before an organ becomes available.
But organ donation and transplantation is more than numbers; it's about our families, our sons, our daughters, our grandchildren, our parents, our brothers, our sisters. It's about our neighbours, people in our community and people in Ontario. It's about the family who receives that dreaded phone call in the middle of the night to come to the hospital: a loved one has had a catastrophic event and will not live. The family, in their grief, donates organs to give renewed life or enhanced life to another human being -- truly a gift of life. And the story goes on to the family that's full of joy today because a family member has been given renewed life through the gift of one of those organs.
You have before you, I understand, a copy of my resumé. While I have never had to walk the journey of the families I describe, I have had the privilege as a nurse of accompanying families through this journey in clinical practice. As a beginning nurse, one of my very first patients was a blond, blue-eyed four-year-old boy who died because in those days liver transplants did not exist. I have, through my management experience, had the opportunity to develop an organ donation program in a hospital setting, establishing protocols and setting up systems and programs to promote organ donation, educate staff and facilitate the recovery of organs and tissues.
As a board member, I was given the opportunity to help implement a provincial organ procurement agency, as outlined by the Trillium Gift of Life Network Act. As a member of the initial board, our responsibility started with the hiring of the first CEO. The experience was both exciting and humbling, to see an organization not only become operational but develop to become a leader in organ and tissue donation.
The network is young, and there is more to do. The ever-increasing demands for organs will cause us to explore ways to expand the pool of donors through innovative approaches such as non-heart-beating donors, paired list exchange, anonymous donors and living donors. The network has the potential of becoming a world-class leader.
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In June 2004, the CEO of the network stepped down. I was asked by the board to step in as interim president and CEO while a search occurred for a new CEO, and I'm happy to report that Dr Frank Markel will assume this position on January 4, 2005. This experience has given me a very privileged view of the operations of the agency and a better understanding of my responsibilities and accountabilities as a director on the board of Trillium Gift of Life Network.
I'd be very pleased to answer any questions related to my academic credentials, my work or life experiences or, indeed, any questions deemed important to you. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much for the presentation and the background on Trillium Gift of Life. Any questions from the government members?
Mr Berardinetti: I think Mr Levac may have a question.
Mr Dave Levac (Brant): There was a question about positions at the beginning. Can you clarify what that temporary position was?
Ms Wilson: Yes. The CEO stepped down in June and the board did a search to get someone to cover while the search went on for a new CEO, and they weren't successful. I had just taken early retirement, so they asked me if I would fill the position until such time as someone was hired, and that has occurred.
Mr Levac: That has already occurred --
Ms Wilson: Yes, Dr Frank Markel will be taking --
Mr Levac: -- so there's no conflict or perceived conflict about this particular appointment, if it should be questioned.
Ms Wilson: Yes.
Mr Levac: Thank you very much for that clarification.
Mr Berardinetti: On behalf of the government, I just want to thank Ms Wilson for coming here and presenting today.
The Chair: The official opposition: Ms Scott, any questions?
Ms Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock): Thank you for coming, Ms Wilson. You have a very impressive resumé. I was going to follow up on the question by Mr Levac. Did you say that the person is going to take over as CEO in 2005?
Ms Wilson: This coming January.
Ms Scott: OK, January 2005. So you'll be leaving that position. And you've been on the board since 2001?
Ms Wilson: The initial board, that's right.
Ms Scott: How did you get to the initial board? Can you just back up? You might have mentioned it in your introductory remarks. You've been on the board since 2001, and before that you set up a program, didn't you, or was that part of --
Ms Wilson: That was before Trillium Gift of Life. It was done within one of the teaching hospitals here in Ontario. At the time, I was program director of critical care and surgical nursing. Our hospital chose to move ahead with organ donations, so we established a program and I was instrumental in the development of that program.
Ms Scott: Was that the one in Kingston?
Ms Wilson: Yes.
Ms Scott: I used to nurse, in another period of my life, and was involved a bit in the transplant program at Toronto General Hospital at that point. I was interested in hearing about the waiting lists and the families. I know that they sign their drivers' licences. I never saw that as official documentation, I guess. Are there instances when you can't get the family and the driver's licence is the only thing you can go by? I wonder about that.
Ms Wilson: If you can't get the family present?
Ms Scott: You can't get the family but there is a driver's licence and the person has signed over organs.
Ms Wilson: And the family chooses not to donate?
Ms Scott: You can't find them.
Ms Wilson: That happens very rarely in the province. I think that in the last two years it may have happened only once, but there was no evidence on the person when they arrived in emergency that they wished to donate. It's not a common thing.
Ms Scott: I didn't experience it at all. But it usually was the family that was spoken to. There has been a lot of education about that, and I'm sure it's a little easier.
Can you explain a little bit about the programs you were involved in to communicate the needs to the family, especially when it happens in an emergency situation and time is of the essence for organ retrieval? Do you find the families receive the information better in the day and age we're in? Is there more or less resistance?
Ms Wilson: I think the families are more receptive than they were a while ago. I think the education message that the network is sending out is that when you sign your donor card, talk to your family. We find, and our polling will show us, that close to 90% of families, when they know the loved one wanted to have organ donation, agree to it and would have no hesitation doing that if they had been spoken to. So our message is clear that you not only sign the card to indicate your willingness to become an organ donor but that you tell your family about your wishes.
We have quite extensive programs in the hospitals now. Since it's a relatively new organization, the focus has been on the hospitals where we feel the greatest potential for organ donation occurs, which are the large, trauma, critical-care hospitals. There are 13 of those in the province, and we have put a Trillium Gift of Life donor coordinator in each of those hospitals, with the exception of CHEO in Ottawa, which has a shared one at this present time, but we're in the process of hiring one for that hospital. A good part of their work is education among the professional staff in terms of how you ask for consent, when you ask for consent and what types of supports you give donor families before, during and after the donation occurs. So there is quite extensive work being done.
Ms Scott: Certainly a lot more than in my days at the transplant centre, for sure. Are there any other things you'd like to see done so that we can increase organ donation in the province? It sounds like a lot has been accomplished within the medical settings. Do you have any ideas?
Ms Wilson: In terms of spreading out, we are now in the next phase where we are spreading out education programs to all community hospitals in the province. We have put a focus on the GTA, because 75% of the population is in the GTA and we have 15 over-200-bed hospitals here. So we feel there's potential here and a great need to get in to do education. We have just started that phase of our development.
One of the areas we are working in, and actually are taking a lead in nationally, is the ethnocultural diversity studies being done, in the sense that sometimes our communication message has not reached these communities in a way that has been meaningful for them. We have taken a lead in working with the Chinese community in this province, so the study from the Canadian Council for Donation and Transplantation for the Chinese community is in the province of Ontario. They have been very impressed with the leadership of Trillium and have now asked us to take on several other cultural communities, which we will do as resources are available.
Ms Scott: That's very interesting.
There has been a lot of changeover on the board lately, I think, in some of the members. Brian Flood was reappointed as a member. Was he the chair for a while?
Ms Wilson: He was the chair.
Ms Scott: Was there a reason for that? Did he not want to be the chair?
Ms Wilson: I wasn't privy to the appointments, but I think he is very pleased to serve as a past chair on the board.
Ms Scott: Did they say how long your appointment would be for?
Ms Wilson: No, I haven't seen that yet.
Ms Scott: So you don't know if it's year, two years or three years?
Ms Wilson: No, I don't.
Ms Scott: What has happened historically?
Ms Wilson: Well, it's a new board, and I think what happened with the new board was that we were all appointed at the same time, so our terms all ran out at the same time. I think there's an attempt now to expand the base of the board to reach into the community more and into different cultural communities and throughout the province. I believe an attempt will be made that everybody have a different length of term so we don't have a changeover all at once again.
Ms Scott: OK, because we noticed that.
I think you'd be a very qualified chair. Thank you for coming here today.
The Chair: Mr Tascona, anything?
Mr Tascona: No, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Ms Horwath?
Ms Horwath: I don't have too many questions, because I think a lot of the ground has already been covered. But I wanted to ask you particularly about the current system of consent for organ donations. Do you think it's a good system? Do you think it's an appropriate system?
Ms Wilson: Are you referring to the notion of presumed consent?
Ms Horwath: Yes.
Ms Wilson: I understand a private member's bill on presumed consent, Bill 156, was tabled in the House last week. I have not spoken to anyone related to the bill, but my understanding is that everybody is presumed to consent to organ donation and, if you choose not to, you fill in a form or apply to be taken from the registry and, at the time of death, the family, again, can say, "No, we're not supportive of organ donation."
It's an interesting concept, and I personally and I think the network are very open to any new, innovative approach that will expand the pool of donors.
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I'm very aware that the public is very split over presumed consent. The latest polling done through the CCDT, the Canadian Council for Donation and Transplantation, indicates that the majority do not favour presumed consent. So presumed consent needs to be done with study and with care, because people on both sides are very -- not rigid, but they're very emphatic about their point of view.
I'm not sure at this point just what it would do, but you need to know that there is a provision in the Trillium Gift of Life Network Act that will be proclaimed, probably next year, in 2005, which requires that every death in Ontario in designated facilities be reported to the Trillium Gift of Life Network. There will be an initial screening, and if this individual is a potential donor, then there will be the requirement that a request be made to the family for organ donation. That certainly will help make people aware. It's a big awareness activity, and it will give the opportunity to everyone in Ontario to make the donation for either organs or tissue.
Ms Horwath: So that would be almost an interim step of making it a more proactive system in regard to getting the organ and tissue donations?
Ms Wilson: That's right.
Ms Horwath: You said the majority were not in favour of a presumed consent system. Do you happen to recall off the top of your head what that majority was?
Ms Wilson: We just had a little presentation by people from the CCDT and they didn't give us the exact number, but depending on the polls, they're varying anywhere from 65% to 78%.
Ms Horwath: Do you think that number would change? You talked a lot, both in the interview and in your opening remarks, about the need for more education. I presume that's the focus you want to see being taken at this point in time. Is that the goal, that the education that you're going to be undertaking or that you're looking to do starts to move some of those opinions?
Ms Wilson: As to the opinion about organ donation, in the polling -- "Do you believe in it? Would you have an organ donor yourself?" or the different questions asked -- right now between 85% and 90% agree with that. So in the public now organ donation is seen as a very viable treatment modality for certain conditions, and people certainly agree with it.
You need to know that of all the deaths that occur, only 1% or less are eligible for organ donation. The individual must at this point proceed to neurological brain death, and then, when you get there, that is before there is the screening for disease processes that might be contraindicative. It may also be that the patient is so unstable they can't be maintained. It may be that the family does not wish to consent. So it's a small pool that you're drawing from. Now, that's not the same with tissue donation. That's an area where we have to move, because in Ontario at the present day we are only recovering enough bone tissue to meet 10% of the needs. We are recovering enough eyes to meet about 90% of the needs. There's a pool out there for donation that we need to approach.
The other thing that's happening, and you need to know, is that we do feel the effects -- and it's a good effect to feel -- of our seat belt laws and our helmet laws, which are being expanded, I understand. Also, we have an aging population, and there are age limits on some tissue and organ donations.
Ms Horwath: Thank you. I have no further questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We'll move to concurrence after the next intended appointee.
I want to put a good word in. A friend of my wife's and myself works with Trillium Gift: Allison Kelly. Please pass on my best to Allison when you see her.
Ms Wilson: I certainly will.
The Chair: Tell her I behaved myself reasonably well in the chair, as well, which will come as a surprise to her. Thank you for your time.
WAYNE MACKINNON
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Wayne MacKinnon, intended appointee as member, Ontario Rental Housing Tribunal.
The Chair: The next intended appointee is Mr Vernon Wayne MacKinnon, an intended appointee to the Ontario Rental Housing Tribunal. Mr MacKinnon, welcome to the standing committee. You have time to make an opening presentation about yourself, your background and your interest in the committee and then, as you've seen -- you've been in the audience -- I will begin any questions with the official opposition. Sir, the floor is yours.
Mr Wayne MacKinnon: First I want to thank you for inviting me here today. My name is Wayne MacKinnon. I presently reside in Ottawa, even though I was born in small-town Nova Scotia, in New Glasgow to be specific. I moved to Ottawa in the early 1970s and have worked there ever since. I'm presently what you might call semi-retired, I guess.
As for the board here, I applied for a position on the Ontario Rental Housing Tribunal in the late spring this year. I had looked through -- actually, I had heard about the boards and agencies, and I got in contact with my member's office to get some more information. I got an e-mail address and looked up the government agencies and boards and found this one that looked kind of interesting, that I thought I might be interested in. I downloaded all the information -- the application form and all the information about the board -- and after reading through all the necessary qualifications and that sort of thing, I felt very confident that I had the background, the experience and the pretty enthusiastic interest in such a position at this time, in particular my time spent working in the area of social services as a social worker and, after that, as an employment insurance officer, and of course then I worked for several years with the Ottawa-Carlton Regional Housing Authority. Through those three particular areas, I think I can contribute significantly to the board in terms of my own knowledge and skills with respect to the qualifications.
Lastly, I worked for several years as executive assistant to an MP from Quebec, up until November last year. Basically, I have a broad experience in community development and community involvement. I'm pretty familiar with the Tenant Protection Act and the Statutory Powers Procedure Act that goes along with it in this case. I have some broad experience in dispute resolution, mainly stemming from my time with the Ottawa-Carlton Regional Housing Authority. I was the community and race relations co-ordinator for that group.
There are, of course, some areas where I could use a little information or look for a little more profound knowledge in terms of the adjudicative process. The mediation I have no problem with; I've been through that. I'm sort of a people person, you might say. I consider myself to be a quick study and feel absolutely confident about my ability to gain any missing knowledge and skills. My understanding is that such training is obligatory and will be provided by the committee.
I have no difficulty or hesitation whatsoever -- I'm going to put my glasses on; I can't even read my own writing -- in interacting and dealing with people in a very common and natural way, and that goes with anyone I happen to meet or in whose company I find myself. I've always been interested in learning about different cultures and am quite adept at identifying and/or recognizing different meanings and nuances and that sort of thing exhibited by different cultures who happen to live in our community.
In closing, just let me say I feel confident in my knowledge, skills and abilities in any available opportunities to learn the ropes through the training sessions and on the job. I'm pretty enthusiastic with respect to this position, and I guess that's about all I'll say for now. If you have any questions or comments --
The Chair: Great. Thank you, Mr MacKinnon, for the presentation. Again, thanks for being early too; we're actually ahead of schedule so we appreciate your being early for the intended time. To the official opposition: Any questions, Mr Tascona?
Mr Tascona: Thank you, Mr MacKinnon, for joining us today. I just want to ask you a couple of questions. Are you currently or have you ever been a landlord?
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Mr MacKinnon: No, I'm not, and I never have been.
Mr Tascona: OK. Are you currently or ever been a tenant?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, I have been a tenant.
Mr Tascona: Are you currently a tenant?
Mr MacKinnon: No, I'm not.
Mr Tascona: Have you ever appeared before the Ontario Rental Housing Tribunal in any fashion?
Mr MacKinnon: No, I haven't, not at all. I've contacted them on behalf of people from time to time.
Mr Tascona: When you were working in the constituency office?
Mr MacKinnon: In the housing authority office.
Mr Tascona: And what type of contacts would you be making?
Mr MacKinnon: Oh, just information, actually. I would help people get information and get rolling in whatever it was they wanted to do.
Mr Tascona: Let me probe that a little bit: in terms of being evicted or in terms of making an application against the landlord?
Mr MacKinnon: Mostly in terms of being evicted, yes, or for non-payment of rent.
Mr Tascona: So you'd be contacting the local Ottawa office for information?
Mr MacKinnon: That's correct.
Mr Tascona: Do you know what venue you would be presiding over if you become a member of this tribunal?
Mr MacKinnon: Not specifically, no. During the interview I had with the chair of the board and two other members, they mentioned a pretty large area, part of it because I'm bilingual, I guess; they threw in some eastern Ontario parts, from Belleville down to Cornwall up to Hawkesbury, that kind of thing.
Mr Tascona: Who's your MPP?
Mr MacKinnon: The Premier.
Mr Tascona: Dalton McGuinty?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes.
Mr Tascona: Did you have any contact with him about this particular appointment?
Mr MacKinnon: Nothing at all, no. I've been in touch with his office; I went there to get the original information.
Mr Tascona: You got the original information from the Premier's office?
Mr MacKinnon: In Ottawa, yes. That's the constituency office I'm talking about, right?
Mr Tascona: I understand. Are you a member of the Ontario Liberal Party?
Mr MacKinnon: No, I'm not.
Mr Tascona: Have you ever contributed to the Ontario Liberal Party?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, I have. I've contributed to the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party. I've been a member of both in the past.
Mr Tascona: You've been a member of the Ontario Liberal Party in the past?
Mr MacKinnon: That's right.
Mr Tascona: What are the main issues that you think would be important for you to deal with on this tribunal? I know the government is reviewing it, and landlord rights and tenant rights are a sensitive area.
Mr MacKinnon: Well, I'm not that up to speed on exactly what's going on with regard to changes and that sort of thing, but I have noticed, for instance, that the majority of applications to the board are from landlords -- well over 90% are from landlords rather than tenants -- and that almost half of those are resolved by default, meaning the tenants don't show up. I'd like to have a look at that and make some suggestions about a more balanced approach, I would think. For instance, the tenants have only five days to respond to the notice they get. That's a little bit out of sync with the time allowed for other things in the same kind of vein.
Mr Tascona: Are you familiar with the report -- it was on television yesterday -- of a woman who has a pit bull and has been given an eviction notice by her landlord? Are you familiar with that?
Mr MacKinnon: No, I'm not.
Mr Tascona: You're not? What is your view in general with respect to pets being allowed in rental units?
Mr MacKinnon: In general, I think pets should be allowed in rental units. In my experience as a social worker, in particular when I was dealing with the seniors, pets were practically half their life. It did all sorts of things for them therapeutically and emotionally. I just generally think that pets should be allowed. I'm not sure if all pets should be allowed.
Mr Tascona: It certainly depends on how the pet behaves.
Mr MacKinnon: That's right. A pet that doesn't disturb other residents and that sort of thing would be fine.
Mr Tascona: That's a fair comment.
Your resumé only goes as far as November 2003. What are you currently doing, sir?
Mr MacKinnon: I've just been doing some contract work for the federal government, mostly in communications.
Mr Tascona: What particular ministry?
Mr MacKinnon: None in particular: PCO.
Mr Tascona: What's PCO?
Mr MacKinnon: Privy Council Office.
Mr Tascona: Oh, that's the Prime Minister's Office?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes.
Mr Tascona: And what type of work are you doing for them?
Mr MacKinnon: Mostly just doing some research in two areas of Quebec. I finished that in August.
Mr Tascona: What type of research?
Mr MacKinnon: Mostly political stuff, I guess: who voted for whom -- the election lists.
Mr Tascona: OK. My colleague has some questions.
Ms Scott: Thank you very much for coming here today. There isn't a lot of adjudicative experience or skills in your resumé. Do you feel you'd be OK in this role? Do you feel you've had enough experience?
Mr MacKinnon: I mentioned in my opening remarks --
Ms Scott: I'm sorry. I may have just stepped out for a minute.
Mr MacKinnon: -- that that was the one area where I lacked a lot of the basic knowledge and skills in terms of adjudication, but I went on to say that I know that training will be provided. I consider myself a quick study and feel confident that I can get up to par within a short time.
Ms Scott: What type of training do they offer? Did they explain what would be available to you?
Mr MacKinnon: No, not specifically. They mentioned something about shadowing someone for a while. They mentioned something about an adjudicators' college; that might be a good suggestion for me. I think that's all they mentioned in terms of training for me.
Ms Scott: This is a full-time position?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, it is.
Ms Scott: Did they tell you how much it would pay?
Mr MacKinnon: I think so. Somewhere between $65,000 and $70,000. I'm not sure exactly what.
Ms Scott: OK. So you've finished up your contracts. You said you're semi-retired and your contracts are finished with the PCO right now?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, they are.
Ms Scott: So right now you're not employed. There would be no conflicts.
Mr MacKinnon: No.
Ms Scott: Those are all the questions I have.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms Scott. Ms Horwath?
Ms Horwath: Welcome. I'm wondering if you can explain a little more about your position with regard to the current framework of the Tenant Protection Act. You spoke briefly about the applications largely coming from landlords and you talked about time frames for tenants to respond, that a number -- in fact, I think it's 58% -- of those cases end up in default, with tenants not even responding. How would you describe the balance right now with the Tenant Protection Act? Do you think it adequately or appropriately balances the interests of landlords and tenants?
Mr MacKinnon: It doesn't appear to adequately balance the interests of both, but I'd have to have a little more information before I could say why that was. I'm not really sure. It might be that that's the way it ends up simply because the landlords are who they are and the tenants are who they are. I'd have to have a more in-depth look at that, I would think. But it would seem to me that the balance should be a little more slanted than it is toward the tenant.
Ms Horwath: Would you say that in an average landlord-tenant situation, one of the parties would have, just by virtue of roles, more perceived power than another of the two parties, and who would that be?
Mr MacKinnon: I'm not sure that's true, but I think that's how tenants might perceive it. That might be part of the problem.
Ms Horwath: I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. You think tenants would perceive that they have not enough power? Is that what you're saying? Or too much power?
Mr MacKinnon: Well, not as much as the landlord.
Ms Horwath: Not as much power. But that's a perception. You don't think that's necessarily the reality.
Mr MacKinnon: That's right.
Ms Horwath: OK. Do you have any opinion on the issue of rent control? Do you understand what the rent control system is and what it used to be and what it is or isn't now?
Mr MacKinnon: I do. No, I don't really have any opinion on it. I don't follow it very closely. It seems to be working.
Ms Horwath: In what way?
Mr MacKinnon: By saying, "It seems to be working," it's that you don't hear a lot of negative things or positive things about it. You don't hear anything about it. It's just there and it's happening and nobody seems to be up in arms about it very much.
Ms Horwath: And that would mean, from your perspective, that there are no concerns about rent control issues in the community that you --
Mr MacKinnon: I wouldn't say there are no concerns, because there's always a group of people who would oppose that for any number of reasons, whether personal or economic or whatever.
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Ms Horwath: Can you describe what the rent control system is right now that we have in Ontario?
Mr MacKinnon: I'm not sure we have an actual rent control, although landlords are, for instance, not permitted to raise their rents more than a certain percentage as determined by the board each year.
Ms Horwath: Have you ever heard of the term "vacancy de-control"?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, I have.
Ms Horwath: Are you aware of the change that was made with the Tenant Protection Act versus prior legislation?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, I am.
Ms Horwath: In terms of the existing regulatory framework, you talked about the possibility it might need some changes. Do you have any suggestions or recommendations on how the current legislation might need to be changed, or in what areas you might at least look to consider changes being necessary?
Mr MacKinnon: I wouldn't presume to be in a position to speak to that. That's sort of policy and I don't think that as a board member you get much into policy at all, initially anyway.
Ms Horwath: No, I was asking from a personal perspective.
Mr MacKinnon: No, I'm still not sort of involved enough to make a --
Ms Horwath: That's fine. Your resumé indicates you were a community development officer with the Ottawa-Carleton Regional Housing Authority. When was that?
Mr MacKinnon: From 1982 until 1992, I think.
Ms Horwath: All right. I don't think I have any further questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Government members: Ms Smith, do you have a question?
Ms Smith: I do, thank you. I just want to clarify. You said that you have belonged to more than one political party over the last number of years?
Mr MacKinnon: Yes, I have.
Ms Smith: Which parties were those?
Mr MacKinnon: Those were the Progressive Conservative Party and the Liberal Party.
Mme Smith: Je voulais vous remercier d'être venu aujourd'hui avec nous. Est-ce que vous pouvez confirmer que vous pouvez servir dans les deux langues officielles du Canada?
M. MacKinnon: Certain. J'ai travaillé pour un député de Montréal, de N-D-G-Lachine à Montréal, et puis il faut absolument parler dans les deux langues pour être adjoint exécutif pour un député du Québec.
Mme Smith: Oui, c'est ça. D'accord. Merci beaucoup. On apprécie bien votre intérêt et votre service.
The Chair: Thank you. Merci. Mr Berardinetti?
Mr Berardinetti: I would say, in English, thank you on behalf of the government for coming here today.
Mr MacKinnon: Thank you.
The Chair: Any other questions, folks? Thank you very much, Mr MacKinnon, for your time. Actually we're next going to move to concurrences, so please make yourself comfortable if you want to stick around and see the action.
Folks, that is our time for intended appointees. I'd now like to move to concurrences. I thank our three intended appointees for their presence here today. We will now consider the intended appointment of Mr Walter Connell, intended appointee of member of the council of the College of Denturists of Ontario.
Mr Berardinetti: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Berardinetti moves concurrence. Any discussion on Mr Connell's intended appointment? Seeing no discussion, all in favour? Any opposed? It's carried.
Mr Connell, congratulations. There you go. As I said, we look forward to those snappy press releases from the denturists.
Mr Tascona: I had no doubts.
The Chair: No doubts, eh?
We will now consider the intended appointment of Sue Wilson, intended appointee as chair, Trillium Gift of Life Network board of directors.
Mr Berardinetti: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Berardinetti moves concurrence. Any discussion?
Mr Tascona: I second that.
The Chair: Mr Tascona seconds this -- who did not second Mr Connell's, I would add. Mr Connell has noted that solemnly in the audience.
Mr Tascona: I do that retroactively.
The Chair: Oh, fair enough. The record is now corrected retroactively. Very good.
Any discussion on Ms Wilson's intended appointment? All in favour please raise your hands. Any opposed? Seeing no opposed, it is carried.
Ms Wilson, congratulations on the new position with the Trillium Gift of Life.
We now consider the intended appointment of Wayne MacKinnon, intended appointee as member, Ontario Rental Housing Tribunal, full-time.
Mr Berardinetti: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Berardinetti moves concurrence. Any discussion about Mr MacKinnon's intended appointment?
Mr Tascona: I'll second that one.
The Chair: Mr Tascona seconds that one as well. Any discussion? All those in favour? Any opposed? Carried.
Mr MacKinnon, congratulations on your appointment. All the best on the tribunal.
Folks, the time for concurrence is completed. I wanted to add one thing. We are, as I mentioned, meeting next Wednesday, December 15, at 10:30 am. I'd ask that members look at your schedules for January and maybe send some suggested dates to your respective subcommittee members. We may want to meet in January, the date depending on availability and the number of intended appointees, the OICs, that we do get. So I'd ask you to do so, and may I suggest that after next week's meeting, the subcommittee may want to talk about potential dates for January.
Clerk, is there anything else I needed to discuss?
The Clerk of the Committee: No.
The Chair: Any other business, members of the committee? Great. Thank you very much. Have yourselves a great day. We'll see you on the December 15. We are now adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1106.
CONTENTS
Wednesday 8 December 2004
Subcommittee reports; committee business A-285
Intended appointments
Mr Walter Connell A-285
Ms Sue Wilson A-288
Mr Wayne MacKinnon A-291
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président
Mr Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente
Ms Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East / Hamilton-Est ND)
Mr Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest / Scarborough-Sud-Ouest L)
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North / Thunder Bay-Superior-Nord L)
Ms Andrea Horwath (Hamilton East / Hamilton-Est ND)
Mr Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln PC)
Mr David Orazietti (Sault Ste Marie L)
Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings L)
Ms Laurie Scott (Haliburton-Victoria-Brock PC)
Ms Monique M. Smith (Nipissing L)
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Dave Levac (Brant L)
Mr Phil McNeely (Ottawa-Orléans L)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms Susan Sourial
Staff / Personnel
Mr Larry Johnston, research officer, Research and Information Services