SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT

INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
RON BARBARO

CONTENTS

Wednesday 24 June 1998

Subcommittee report

Intended appointments

Mr Ron Barbaro

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

Chair / Président

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine ND)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York ND)

Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West / -Ouest L)

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur L)

Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay / Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne PC)

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth PC)

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine ND)

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York ND)

Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North / -Nord PC)

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough PC)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins (Quinte PC)

Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-Walkerville L)

Clerk / Greffier

Mr Douglas Arnott

Staff / Personnel

Mr David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service

The committee met at 1000 in room 228.

SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT

The Chair (Ms Frances Lankin): I call the meeting to order. Just before we start, I would like to ask that members of the subcommittee stay behind after adjournment of the committee meeting for a quick discussion about scheduling of meetings over the intersession.

The first item of business is to accept the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, June 18, 1998. I require a motion to adopt that report.

Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I so move.

The Chair: Any debate or discussion? Seeing none, all those in favour please indicate. Opposed? Carried.

INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
RON BARBARO

Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party and third party: Ron Barbaro, intended appointee as chair, Ontario Casino Corp board of directors.

The Chair: The second item of business is an appointment review, from a certificate dated June 11, 1998. We have invited Mr Ron Barbaro. Could you come forward please, sir.

Mr Barbaro is an intended appointee to the position of chair of the Ontario Casino Corp board of directors. We welcome you here today. If you would like to take a few minutes to make any opening or introductory comments, please feel free. When you are finished we will begin questioning with members of the government caucus.

Mr Ron Barbaro: Thank you and good morning, everyone. The reason I accepted the Premier's challenge was that I appeared to possess the many skills required to make a difference at the casinos and to add value. I qualify for that by, number one, the running of a billion-dollar business. I'm not a stranger to that. As president of the Prudential worldwide operations, we had over $300 billion in assets, and most of that stuff reported to me. So the numbers do not scare me.

Economic development: I've been thoroughly involved in that throughout my career, but particularly locally, building the Consilium for the Prudential out in Scarborough, 95 Wellington, and what have you, so the construction end of the business which we are involved in does not disturb me.

Tourism: After 10 years as chairman of the Toronto zoo, taking it from approximately 500,000 attendance to 1.8 million set us up to compete for the entertainment dollar and to work on quality service, which is a division of the casinos.

As far as volunteerism goes, spending 40% of my working life, I show the sensitivity that is required for this type of job, from being chairman of the United Way, Kids Help Phone, Medic-Alert, you name it.

As far as creativity is concerned, I think I possess some of those blessings. Most of the business books in the United States in the last while on creativity have given me honourable mentions, if not chapters, so I think I qualify.

I probably could sum it all up. I've been working on a mission statement -- I hope I can read my writing from the subway this morning -- and I'd like to read it to you. It will take a second. This naturally would be a changing mission:

To be a leader and creative innovator in the North American gaming industry by providing a top-quality gaming experience in order to promote tourism, enhance economic development and generate revenue for the people of Ontario in a socially responsible, safe and secure manner.

Mr Grimmett: Welcome, Mr Barbaro. You're probably the best-dressed person we've had before the committee in a while. I should tell you that I sit right next to Mr Guzzo, the member for Ottawa West, and he claims --

Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West): Ottawa-Rideau.

Mr Grimmett: Ottawa-Rideau. I'm sorry. He claims that he knows just about everybody on the Who's Who list from Canada --

Mr Barbaro: Am I on that list?

Mr Grimmett: -- but I understand that he actually does know you.

Mr Barbaro: Yes. Let me get this straight. It's Garry, isn't it?

Mr Grimmett: Right.

Mr Barbaro: Garry is my mother's sister's husband's -- his brother was Garry's father. I think that's the way it works.

Mr Grimmett: He claims he's related to everybody that way.

Mr Barbaro: Actually, his father worked for Met Life and I sort of wrote him off a long time ago.

Mr Grimmett: I guess your relations haven't been too close; I hear you thought he was a Liberal.

Mr Barbaro: Absolutely. Incidentally, I was raised that way also.

Mr Grimmett: I see.

You talked about tourism briefly in your mission statement. Can you give us some idea how you see the Ontario Casino Corp being involved in the development of tourism in Ontario?

Mr Barbaro: I haven't got a full vision, I haven't had closure, but I met with the mayor of Niagara Falls and the mayor of Windsor already. With the mayor of Niagara Falls, I shared our views on tourism.

One small item where the creativity comes in is that a couple of weeks ago I was at a casino in Puerto Rico -- I was doing a lecture there -- and I noticed five-cent machines were part of the entertainment package, and the conventioneers were having a great time at these five-cent machines. Then I came back and toured ours, and I noticed we do not have any. I asked the mayor, "Isn't that a more fun element, with the percentage of Americans who get 28 pulls to a dollar, as opposed to the quarter machine?" So we talked about how I wouldn't mind having a section that provides more entertainment than risk from the standpoint of the casino experience.

Then I find out -- I've been working on it rather aggressively -- that the five-cent machine is coming back in the entertainment casino business. That is an element of tourism that I respect, and I think that may add to the experience. I interviewed a couple of ladies in Windsor last week at that casino and asked them -- they were playing the 25-cent machine -- and they thought it would be a great idea if we had them. So I think you'll see that we'll make that an immediate challenge, to make sure. Of course, your operators do not want them because of higher revenue, but I'm not so interested in revenue as I am in the total package.

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North): Mr Barbaro, thank you for coming. You have an impressive list of credentials, and to answer your earlier question, yes, you are in the Who's Who. That was the bio that we got. I wasn't sure if they had enough space in there. You certainly have a long list of accomplishments. I compliment you, sir, for the amount of volunteer time you've been able to fit in with your business and corporate world over the years, the contribution that you make not just to Toronto but certainly to the province and to the country. I congratulate you, sir.

In my mind there has always been a bridge that I think could be addressed. I just wondered what your thoughts might be. The bridge that I refer to is, we have this big company called the Ontario Casino Corp and we also have this other big company called the Ontario Lottery Corp. In my opinion they're all gaming. I wondered if you saw the bridge that I see and whether it is something that would be interesting to explore.

Mr Barbaro: You're referring to one corporation?

Mr Spina: One gaming corporation for the province.

Mr Barbaro: Naturally I haven't had the time to review -- I know very little about the administration of the lottery, other than I assume it is administered and regulated. From ours, once I get it straight, I may be able to answer in a more intelligent manner.

I've found through my experiences that when you have vertical operations -- at the Prudential we used to have a property and casualty department, a life, a pension and this. If you were to change your address, you had to send four letters. I changed all that, to the tune of about $360 million. We had to get the software done. But vertical operations, if they have the same mission, sometimes can blend and there are economies of scale and synergies that work excellently. I can't give an opinion other than it's worth investigating.

Mr Spina: You've been involved with the corporation for a short while now, as the president.

Mr Barbaro: It seems like a year already.

Mr Spina: It just seems like it, yes. You've developed a feel for the OCC. What are probably the most significant changes that you think should happen to the OCC from its inception to where it's headed now?

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Mr Barbaro: I think they're on a learning curve. Whether that curve is completed or not, I am not sure. Today I meet with the chief of the band from Rama, and I'm going there tomorrow morning to do a walkabout.

Every day they learn a little more about the gaming industry as it is, the problems that go with it and of course the blessings that go with it, so I think the administration is in good shape. I think I can make it better.

Mr Spina: Thank you, Mr Barbaro. We wish you well.

Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins (Quinte): Congratulations for letting your name stand and coming forth on this. I think it's excellent. As has been said, your credentials are impeccable.

One of the things I've noticed about Rama, because it's in an area that we hear some advertising from, is that they bring in a lot of front-line, headline entertainers. Is that something that you can see that would follow along those lines?

Mr Barbaro: I haven't seen the final numbers. From what I understand, it's working. They're selling out 2,500 seats, I think it is. Those people come out for an entertainment experience. They get the entertainment, the feeling, and then they may go into the casino and they may not. I know many who go just for the entertainment.

But you must remember you're in the middle of a field somewhere, and if you can draw that type of entertainment, that's smart business, and it seems to be working. I haven't seen the final numbers yet, but I know they want to continue doing it and lease the land. I'm working on a land lease right now for the people who are managing it with the band. They want to extend it; therefore, it must be working.

Mr Rollins: When you see headliners like Kenny Rogers and Paul Anka and some of those people coming in, you know that something must generate some dollars in there to attract tourism to Ontario. That's what we want to see more of. Thank you.

The Chair: We'll move to the Liberal caucus.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-Walkerville): Mr Barbaro, congratulations on your appointment first of all.

On June 10, the minister announced your appointment. On June 12, with respect to Casino Niagara, you asked Stanley Beck to conduct another review of the letting of the contract for that particular casino. Were you not satisfied with the original review that was done internally, and if not, why did you appoint the second review?

Mr Barbaro: Not at all, Mr Duncan. I came in the middle of this fray, or whatever you want to call it, from the analysis. I read it and I didn't see anything wrong with it. I met with Minister Hodgson and he asked me if I was comfortable with it. I said: "I'm comfortable with it, but there are things when you walk into the middle of something. I've had too much experience in large business. What do you say I get a totally outside person, outside of our lawyers, take a look at it?"

We went across some names. I've known Stanley Beck for over 30 years. I called up Stanley and I asked him, "Would you please take a look at this just to give me the comfort that I think I require?" although I didn't find anything wrong. It's just an extension, coming in the middle. If I had been there at the beginning, it probably would have been a different story, but it's just a style of operation.

Mr Duncan: Were you concerned at all that the tourism subcommittee recommendation on Niagara Falls was overlooked in favour of the casino corporation that was chosen?

Mr Barbaro: I haven't thoroughly read all the files on that, but tourism -- you have read my biographical sketch. I am a tourism type of person. I'm motivated in that area from all the experiences I have had, and from my meeting with the mayor of Niagara Falls, he knows I'm on that side and I will explore, if not enhance, any plans on tourism for that area. I like the area.

Mr Duncan: I want to ask your opinion, because your credentials are absolutely impeccable from a business perspective, in terms of the evaluation of ultimately the winning bid, the involvement and the way it was done.

Just to brief you on it, the subcommittee that did tourism did not recommend the successful bidder. In fact, a number of allegations have been stated about the whole process. Our concern is, why would the recommendation of the tourism group be overlooked? In your discussions with Professor Beck, have you asked him to look at that issue?

Mr Barbaro: No. My full thrust with Professor Beck was to check the process, not the content, of the acceptance. I have not gone into that in the detail with which I would feel more satisfied in replying, so I can't give you an answer to that. My whole thing is the process. I can't comment intelligently on content, although I'm learning more every day.

Mr Duncan: When Professor Beck has done his review, will you be releasing that review to the general public and to the Legislature?

Mr Barbaro: I see no reason why I wouldn't. It was a public announcement when I made it; it will be public when I get it.

Mr Duncan: Were you satisfied with the government's review?

Mr Barbaro: Satisfied? Yes.

Mr Duncan: You're satisfied in spite of the fact that one of the principals was actually involved in the selection itself?

Mr Barbaro: We don't know -- explain that, please.

Mr Duncan: Our understanding is that one of the principals who conducted the review or participated in the review was actually part of the selection team itself and participated in meetings. Would that be the sort of situation that would give you comfort?

Mr Barbaro: I think that with Mr Beck's analysis we'll find out if there was a conflict there.

Mr Duncan: The capital contract that was done on Casino Windsor, as you know, there was an audit done of that and some changes were made subsequent to the audit. There were allegations of cost overruns that were explored, and when the audit was completed, the then chair of the casino corporation announced some changes. Have you yet had an opportunity to review the way the contract was let on the building of the design-built concept of Casino Windsor?

Mr Barbaro: No. I have watched the gross number and costs, but as far as reviewing how it was let, there's no way I've read anything about that.

Mr Duncan: Would you be prepared to review how those types of capital contracts are let so that in future these kinds of issues don't have to be explored again?

Mr Barbaro: I don't know if I have to do that. I know that anything I'm doing in the future will be done according to the experience that I have.

Mr Duncan: The Ontario Casino Corp has reaped some heavy profits for the government of Ontario. In the city of Windsor, the government has not committed to reinvesting any of the profits in terms of protecting that casino's interest in market share, with Detroit coming on stream. Would it be your intention to look at other investments with casino profits to ensure that Casino Windsor remains competitive with the three major casinos that are coming on stream in Detroit next year?

Mr Barbaro: You know that I do not govern where the government puts the money that we generate and give to them. That's up to you people. But I know that I am not opposed to expansion of possibilities in the city of Windsor. I shared with the mayor the other day that just from first blush I have a vision of maybe a casino college. We do not have enough skilled employees for the opening. It's going to be a stretch. We can't keep the interims; we can't keep that. We do not have it.

It seems to me that when I check the east and I phone some people I know there is a void in that area. You must go to the south. So there are opportunities for expansion. If this is as successful as it is -- whether you've seen the new casino or not, it's an outstanding project. Your provincial pride will soar regardless of what political party you are involved in. It's a magnificent structure. Whether another tower, a 400-room hotel, goes right next door or not, it's a strong possibility, so that's helping in the development.

Mr Duncan: I'm well familiar with the structure.

Your background is in business; you know what a competitive environment is like. There are three casinos coming on stream in Detroit next year, over $1 billion in investment in each one of them. Is the Ontario Casino Corp in Windsor, and frankly in Niagara Falls, prepared to invest in non-gaming, tourism-related initiatives to help ensure the continued competitiveness of those casinos?

Mr Barbaro: I don't think I can answer that. All I have are my own opinions until I get into it deeper, but we will do everything in our power to make it an entertainment experience beyond the casino. That's just part of the whole package.

I'm aware of Detroit, and that is why I'm going to recommend to Minister Hodgson some people whom I'll add to the board, if possible, for their confirmation, people who are skilled in the competitive business, people who bring to the table other divisions of the business. I'm fortunate that I can surround myself with some pretty neat, aggressive, creative people, and we will look into those things as much as possible.

Mr Duncan: It has been suggested that in the Gateway initiative in Niagara Falls the tourism component has been lost as a result of the way this contract was let and as a result of the way that this business has been conducted. Will you undertake, as president of the Ontario Casino Corp, to review the Gateway proposal and to make recommendations to the government with respect to, again, tourism infrastructure investment?

Mr Barbaro: The mayor has promised to go through the whole Gateway portfolio with me, and then naturally I'll pay attention.

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Mr Duncan: I just wanted to share one observation with you. I too have experienced nickel slots in other jurisdictions and wondered why we didn't have them. I approached the president of Windsor Casino Ltd and his answer to me was: "I've got people lined up to play quarter slots. Why would I put nickel slots in?" Do you intend to act on those kinds of issues as aggressively as ought to be done?

Mr Barbaro: I will do whatever. The analysis coming in is rather positive on the nickel machine. You do not generate as much income -- that's only logical -- but you're not operating at a loss. You could have more revenue, but we can't just be governed by total revenue for the tourist experience. You must accommodate those things. We're on the same page there.

Mr Duncan: People in the gaming industry have suggested to me that the introduction of slot machines and charitable casinos can undermine the economic impact of the larger casinos. What are your views on the introduction of so-called VLTs or slot machines and on the introduction of charitable casinos?

Mr Barbaro: I have no view at this point, but it stands to reason that if you opened something close, say in Belle River, it may affect the casino in your area. I haven't had a chance to get at that, but it will get my full attention.

Mr Duncan: How much time do I have left?

The Chair: One more question.

Mr Duncan: Do you believe there's room for expansion of large, permanent gaming facilities in Ontario and, if so, where would you locate them?

Mr Barbaro: I read a survey that was done that apparently there are some cities that were suggested. Whether or not the surveys are in depth enough -- Sault Ste Marie, Ottawa, and I'm just trying to remember the other cities, I think Kingston, close-to-border towns. Ottawa's not a border town, is it? Well, maybe it is.

The Chair: We'll move to the New Democratic Party.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): Welcome, Mr Barbaro. It is Barbaro, no?

Mr Barbaro: You've got it.

Mr Marchese: We have such a hell of a time with our names. My name gets massacred often, and it's so elegant in Italian. What are you going to do?

Mr Barbaro: Just because you won in the soccer match yesterday, it doesn't give you these liberties.

Mr Marchese: I forgot to bring my flag. I had it on today.

Mr Barbaro: I'm surprised you got out of the convertible.

Mr Marchese: Not yet. At the semi-finals perhaps.

Mr Barbaro, a few questions. I have to tell you, in terms of general interest in casinos, I'm not a fan of gambling generally. One of my brothers goes to the States once a year to gamble, however. That's how I acquired an interest in the whole area.

During our term as the government, when we were discussing gambling in general, I thought it would be nice to experiment with one to see how it works out, control it in the best way possible and see whether or not there is room to expand it. But I wasn't a fan of having more than one gambling area because I don't see, frankly, the social advantages to gambling, individual or collective, and feel that in the end it's going to be more hurtful to individuals, and society in general, than anything else. I thought if you've got a lot of individuals, like my brother, going to the US once a year, then it might be nice to have it here. Instead of going there, they can go and gamble their couple of thousand dollars in Ontario. But as an economic development tool, I am a bit frightened by it.

Most governments are getting into the field, although in Alberta, as you've been reading, people have been fighting back against VLTs in particular, and I suspect there will be a growing movement across Canada to stop the growth of casinos. Do you have an opinion in this regard or are you just here to manage this corporation?

Mr Barbaro: What your party did, you had a spark and you fanned the spark and you got a flame. What you're saying is, you want to make sure that it doesn't turn into a blazing inferno. As I said to the mayor of Windsor, "If I walked in here and said, 'I want to hire 5,000 people in your community and I want to spend approximately $600 million on development,' I think you'd pick me up at the airport."

Mr Duncan: In a limousine.

Mr Barbaro: Right. As far as the economic development is concerned, this is because he didn't want to give me the land next door. That's why. I think we should have that, but that's another issue.

When you see the Windsor operation, Rosario, you will send your brother there, as opposed to the airfare to go to wherever he goes in the United States. It's only a few hours' drive. It is a magnificent structure, equal to anything I've seen in the United States. I know it, because we financed several of them at the Prudential and I got to see some of the plans of these things years ago. It's the case that we have that.

We're adding value. Employees add value. It's just the way it works. I read a statement yesterday from Niagara Falls that 3.1 million people crossed the bridge before the casino, and after one year of the casino it's 3.87 million; some 750,000 extra people coming over the bridge than the normal tourists, so something's happening.

Mr Marchese: I understand and appreciate that. My point is that we can't simply eliminate the drive or the urge that people have to gamble. My point is to control it as best we can. I'm not a big supporter of proliferation of casinos, is the point I make, but I realize that it does create some jobs in some sectors, although generally speaking I think it's more of a problem than a benefit.

I want to move on to some of the other matters raised by the other opposition party. In May, the Toronto media revealed that the Falls Management group was ranked third by a group of experts, and that was mentioned earlier. Questions surfaced around how this third bid was bumped to number one. We all have questions about that. Generally speaking, when somebody is at the end of the bid, as opposed to first, and qualifies to get the bid, we all have questions about how that happens. Do you have questions about how that came about?

Mr Barbaro: It wouldn't be fair for me to respond until I have the report to tell me if the process was right. When Mr Beck comes back, I'll be able to answer those questions.

Mr Marchese: Right, except when you looked at the other report or heard about it, you said you had no problems with it at the time.

Mr Barbaro: Yes, it read straight.

Mr Marchese: This is the problem I've got.

Mr Barbaro: This is why I asked for Mr Beck to get another -- you know, outside totally: "Let's get it over, in case I missed something, in case you missed something."

Mr Marchese: This is the problem we have. After weeks of the minister denying any appearance of wrongdoing, he asked the Ontario Casino Corp for a report on possible conflict of interest. They asked Davies, Ward and Beck to prepare the report, and the report comes back claiming there's no appearance of conflict of interest. People like my colleague Peter Kormos, who happens to be a lawyer as well, says, "This is like asking Johnnie Cochrane if OJ is guilty." He raises a good point.

Mr Barbaro: To him it's a good point, yes; not to me.

Mr Marchese: If you're saying that all you're going to do is ask this professor-lawyer to look at process and not at content, that's not going to be what people are looking for. I think he'll produce the same report. If he's just looking at process, the report will be not dissimilar from the previous one.

Mr Barbaro: I can't comment. I have to wait till I see what he comes up with. That's what I asked him for and that's what I expect to get.

Mr Marchese: In terms of what you think needs to be addressed by this investigation, you haven't put out any parameters or asked him to look specifically for anything. You simply said, "Just review the matter."

Mr Barbaro: Absolutely.

Mr Marchese: But it is true that Mr Beck will not have any power to subpoena witnesses.

Mr Barbaro: Not under my direction at this point.

Mr Marchese: It is also true that he will not have the power to make anybody testify under oath.

Mr Barbaro: No, he has the permission to ask any questions of anyone at any time, to take anything he finds in the file and interview. He can do a full court press in that area.

Mr Marchese: Sure, but it's just checking process, not content.

Mr Barbaro: The process is what caused the question of the conflict, wasn't it?

Mr Marchese: I'm not sure the process here checks with other matters, actually. I'm not entirely sure, but you seem to be.

Mr Barbaro: Neither am I.

Mr Marchese: I believe what we need in this kind of situation is an investigation that is more transparent, and I don't believe we're going to get it in this kind of review that you are proposing. I think we need more public scrutiny. Until we get more transparent public scrutiny of this issue in terms of a real hearing, I think the air around this matter will never be cleared.

Mr Barbaro: I totally respect your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I'm listening.

The Chair: Mr Barbaro, we appreciate your joining us. We will be moving to a vote at this point in time on concurrence. Thank you very much for joining us.

Committee, we need a motion for concurrence in the recommended appointment of Mr Ron Barbaro as chair of the Ontario Casino Corp board of directors.

Mr Grimmett: I move concurrence.

The Chair: Is there any discussion or debate on that?

Mr Duncan: The official opposition is going to support the appointment. WFe think Mr Barbaro's credentials are impeccable. Frankly, we are supporting it because we believe he can be trusted to run this corporation. We don't believe it has been well run up until now. Certainly it has been adrift for some time. Major decisions have not been made with respect to a number of gaming initiatives in different communities. We believe the type of leadership he'll bring to this particular debate and to the running of this corporation will keep the government honest. It's the view of the official opposition that we need somebody like Mr Barbaro in there to ensure that it's run properly. The minister and the government, in our view, have not been doing a particularly good job.

We will be pursuing a number of casino corporation issues on our own in the Legislature and we look forward to the opportunity to pursue those issues. We believe Mr Barbaro will act and do what's in the best interests of the people of Ontario in this particular appointment, in this particular area. We get a little bit nervous when we see the minister's assistant frantically taking notes at the back of the room. I suspect Mr Barbaro will do what is in the interest of the people of this province first, not what's in the interest of any particular government. In that sense, we're pleased to support the appointment and believe that he will bring a sense of leadership and direction to a corporation that has sadly been lacking it over the last few months.

Mr Marchese: Just quickly, as we always do with so many of the appointments, we found many people to be very able in our interviews with them. In this particular case, I have no reason to doubt Mr Barbaro will do a very effective job of running the corporation. Obviously, as he said in his goals with respect to his appointment, he's there to promote tourism and generate revenues in a socially safe and responsible manner. We know he will do that to the best of his ability. So we will be supporting his appointment.

The Chair: Is there any further debate? Mr Spina, you would like a recorded vote?

Mr Spina: Yes, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Is there any further discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on the motion of concurrence in the recommended appointment of Mr Barbaro as chair of the Ontario Casino Corp board of directors. A recorded vote.

Ayes

Cullen, Gravelle, Grimmett, Bert Johnson, Marchese, Newman, Spina, Stewart.

The Chair: It's a unanimous decision of the committee.

Thank you very much. I would ask for subcommittee members to remain behind to discuss meetings over the summer. The meeting is adjourned.

The committee adjourned at 1034.