INTENDED APPOINTMENTS ELIZABETH LESSIF
CONTENTS
Wednesday 16 December 1998
Subcommittee reports
Intended appointments
Mrs Elizabeth Lessif
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Présidente
Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York ND)
Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands / Kingston et Les Îles L)
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur L)
Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay / Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne PC)
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth PC)
Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine ND)
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York ND)
Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North / -Nord PC)
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton PC)
Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West / -Ouest Ind)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Tom Prins
Staff / Personnel
Mr David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1003 in room 228.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Vice-Chair (Mr Rosario Marchese): I call the meeting to order. I request a motion to adopt the subcommittee report dated Thursday, November 26. That's moved by Mr Grimmett. All in favour? Any opposed? That carries.
Report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, December 3: Do I have a motion to adopt? Mr Grimmett. All in favour? Any opposed? That carries.
Report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, December 10: Is there a motion to adopt? Mr Grimmett again. Wow, we're on a roll. All in favour? Any opposed? That carries.
You see, Ms Lessif, how easy it is on this committee.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): Chair, I just want to have some sense that we'll have an opportunity to discuss whether we will be able to sit during the break period. Will that be happening after we do this?
The Vice-Chair: I hadn't anticipated that, but maybe we should, yes. We'll discuss it after in the subcommittee.
Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): We'll be asking the House leaders to allow us to do that.
Mr Gravelle: I just want to be assured of that.
The Vice-Chair: We'll review that after.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS ELIZABETH LESSIF
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition: Elizabeth Lessif, intended appointee as member, Thames Valley Grant Review Board.
The Vice-Chair: Ms Lessif, welcome. We usually allow the intended appointments some time to give a statement, if they would like.
Mrs Elizabeth Lessif: I would. Committee Chair, committee members, good morning. My name is Elizabeth Lessif. I usually go by Liz; I find that less regal sounding, a little more informal. I short-formed it, to my mother's dismay, but anyway. I'm a housewife. I have a husband, John, and two great sons. Nine months ago we joined the grandparents' club, and it's just wonderful.
We have lived in Tillsonburg for 19 years. The reason we moved there from Toronto is because of a business opportunity with McDonald's Restaurants. We are a franchisee. We started out in Tillsonburg 19 years ago and it's nothing but great. I love the town; I love the community. My husband and I are very active because, as McDonald's philosophy goes, we give back to the community where we live. That's why we're there. They give so much to us.
Before I went to Tillsonburg, I moved here from Simcoe, Ontario. That's where I was born and raised. I went through a management course for a couple of years with Robert Simpson when they were in business. I ended up coordinating their Christmas gift book for 10 years. It was a wonderful experience and I loved Toronto when I was here. But I met my husband and we got married and we had this business opportunity. So we're in little old Tillsonburg, which is right back home for me, so it's kind of comfortable.
My strong aspect, through McDonald's and because of what I believe and because we are very fortunate, is to give back to the community. Over the 18 or 19 years we've been there, John and I have both been very active in volunteering our time in local events like little theatre, sports. We've done a lot with sports teams over the years. Our boys were in hockey, so you can imagine. It was great. I also joined Kinettes and the Catholic Women's League. I've been involved in fundraisers there. I have been an active member and enjoyed it very much. I was on the board of the curling club for the ladies section. It was a great experience; any time you get on a board, it is.
For 17 years, I've been involved in the Tillsonburg auxiliary. I headed up a huge fundraiser for a couple of years, based on the Hadassah bazaar extravaganza, which raises a lot of money for the hospital. Currently I'm the convenor of the HELPP tickets, the lottery break-open tickets, for the auxiliary, and for two years I was on the board of the hospital as well as president of the auxiliary. We help out with church groups, as I mentioned: the Catholic Women's League, Youth for Christ fundraisers.
We have a beautiful old home in Annandale that was built by the first mayor, E.D. Tillson. It's been restored and it's a historical house. It's an ongoing fundraiser.
We also have a wonderful arts and crafts guild in Tillsonburg that bought the two old train stations, and they give all kinds of interesting lessons for old and young. I've been involved with that fundraising.
I'm also involved in the Association for Community Living. Currently I'm on the Oxford children's aid board; I've been on for four years and I have two more years to fulfill. I really enjoy it. It goes back to helping children, which I think is so important today. Three years ago, John and I were honoured with their Jack Ross Memorial Award, which is given to people who have local involvement in helping children in the area. That was quite an honour.
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I also feel that it's certainly an honour to be nominated for an appointee for this foundation, the Ontario Trillium grant team. I'm quite honoured. I feel strongly that it's the greatest news the government at this time could offer. It's timely, it's needed, it's exciting, and the best part is that it's local people deciding on local needs and priorities. I think that's great and I really would like to be a part of it. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much for those comments. We'll begin with Mr Gravelle with questions to you.
Mr Gravelle: Good morning, Ms Lessif. My name is Michael. I sometimes get it shortened to Mike, but sometimes that gets associated with not necessarily the right Mike. I also have a sister Elizabeth, who has probably done the same thing you have.
Ms Lessif, thank you very much for joining us this morning. I want to ask you a number of questions relating to this grant review team because it is an extremely important job that those representatives on that team are going to do. They're going to be making recommendations for allocation of considerable amounts of money. Do you have a sense of what percentage of the funding the Thames Valley is going to be responsible for? Have you been given any information about that?
Mrs Lessif: I haven't personally. All I know is that 80% of the funding will go to all local projects and organizations, and then the other 20% is province-wide. But locally, of the $100 million, it's 80%. I guess it depends on the needs and the grant review team, but I haven't heard personally, no.
Mr Gravelle: How did you hear about the grant view team and how did your name come forward? I'm curious about that.
Mrs Lessif: I was phoned by Ernie Hardeman, our MPP for Oxford county, and was asked if I would consider this. He sent me the information. I filled it out and gave it back to him. That's how I found out.
Mr Gravelle: I want to ask you about your understanding of the funding framework. You mentioned 80% being recommended by the grant review team and 20% being for province-wide initiatives. What is your understanding in terms of the organizations that will be eligible for the funding? I think there's still a great deal of confusion about that.
Mrs Lessif: I understand it's for charities and for not-for-profit organizations. I believe things like hospitals or schools are not eligible unless they work with one of these organizations and that organization decides this need is there; I guess they apply for it or give it from whatever they receive. That's my understanding.
Mr Gravelle: Are there any particular organizations that you think should receive special consideration?
Mrs Lessif: There are a lot of needs out there. I think if you get on this review team, you work as a team. There will be submissions for funds, and you have to look at them all individually as a review team; depending on how much money you have, you decide as a team who are the most needy. It's not my personal agenda. If you're on a team, you work as a team. You discuss the pros and cons and you make a vote, I guess, and it's the majority.
Mr Gravelle: I believe that one of the most important aspects of funding -- and certainly the Trillium Foundation has been well known for this -- is the sense of an arm's-length relationship from government. Truly, decisions are made on the basis of having no particular influence by the government of the day, whoever it may be. I want to get a sense of how you feel about that in terms of what decisions are made. How important is the arm's-length relationship in making decisions? Would you be influenced by any particular pressure that might be put on to fund certain groups? I presume you would anticipate that would not be happening. But I feel so strongly about the arm's-length relationship aspect, that you're not influenced by government, whenever people appear before our committee that's certainly a question I feel the need to ask and get a sense of from the people who are before us.
Mrs Lessif: I think it's important that you do separate the political aspect from this. To me, they have two different roles. I'm not that strongly politically inclined one way or another. Like I said, the grant review team has to be impartial. They get the information and they make their decisions on that line. I think it should be at arm's length from the government, even though that's where the money is coming from.
Mr Gravelle: Can I ask you how you feel about casinos and about charity casinos? It's obviously a very controversial issue and people have strong feelings about it on both sides of the story. What are your feelings about casinos? There have been a lot of changes in the province since the government -- well, they went from the 44 casinos and now we're down to the four charity casinos, which I would submit are not charity casinos, which is no surprise. I'm sure others have heard that before from me. They really aren't, because they're licensed on a commercial basis. But having said that, I'd love your thoughts on the charity casino issue.
Mrs Lessif: I personally enjoy going to a casino. There are, like you said, both sides. There are some people who enjoy it and they have a budget and they don't get into trouble. There are others, unfortunately, that you know don't have that willpower, who are gamblers, and that can cause problems. But I'm not sure we can cure all those people or change them, and if they don't gamble there at the charity casinos, they're going to gamble at the racetracks or wherever. There are all kinds of private or little places underground where they can spend their money if they wish, so I think it has to be their choice. Now, whether something has to be put in place like in the States where they have training programs to help these people, I don't know. I'm sure that would help and that would work.
But I feel they're good in some ways. They're fun. I enjoy them. I don't know. It's the finance at times too, I think.
Mr Gravelle: Do you have any thoughts on whether the communities that are scheduled to open charity casinos should receive a different proportion of the funding than the communities that are not going to have casinos? The bulk of the money that goes into the casinos will not be staying in the community, and at this stage my understanding is there is no special consideration for those communities. Do you feel there should be, in terms of funding?
Mrs Lessif: No, I don't think so. I think it should depend on what needs are in that community. If there is a great need there, by all means; I think the team should review it and decide on that basis. This is something that may come to light; I'm sure it will. Whether there would be guidelines to make sure that if they were hurt in some way or if something needed it, maybe they would get some money -- but I don't think right now, no.
Mr Gravelle: Do I have a little more time, Chair?
The Vice-Chair: One more question.
Mr Gravelle: Ms Lessif, in terms of your community involvement, obviously it's wonderful. All the activities you've been involved with are superior and I'm sure you'll be a fine representative.
I want to ask you, if I may, one last question. Are you concerned about the fact that it's going to be difficult -- I mean competitive -- with all the agencies and groups that will be coming forward? Regardless of the amount of money out there, there are going to be a lot of agencies, it seems to me, that will not be able to access it. I think it is important to have local communities, but you're going to be under a certain kind of pressure to make those decisions, and you will not be able to satisfy all the demands because this is reaching into a much wider group than previously. Have you given any thought as to how you'll handle that? In a strange kind of way that makes you a political figure, I think, which I'm sure you want to avoid. I just see that developing down the road as a result of the fact that we're going to put you in that position.
Mrs Lessif: With my background in Robert Simpson with that gift book, I was under a lot of pressure because we were always behind schedule. Even McDonald's, with the fast pace and all the demands that come knocking on our door daily, has put me in a position where you realize you can't please everybody. You try to please the most. You have just so many funds and you try as a team. I'm not going to be making decisions, if I get on this grant review team, by myself. It's a whole committee team effort. I think I can handle those pressures. You have to look at it logically and factually and present it to the group and discuss it. You realize you probably will have to say no to some.
Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West): Ms Lessif, thank you for coming. I have a daughter Elizabeth. I maintain her name but she shortens it as well. They do that.
Reflecting on your background, I see you've been on the children's aid society board for at least a couple of years, probably longer. It says personnel committee, two years; finance committee, two years. Also, you said you were part of the centre for community living.
Mrs Lessif: We're involved in fundraising every year. They used to have a sing-a-thon night and we'd buy a table and things like that. We've done that a lot in Tillsonburg where there are groups, but that was one of our favourite groups to raise funds for. We feel it's very worthwhile. We have personal friends who have a young boy who unfortunately fits in that category.
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Mr Cullen: I'm very familiar with these activities. I used to be on the children's aid society board in Ottawa-Carleton. The developmentally disabled community has been speaking to me in Ottawa-Carleton. You must know from both that both activities are under a lot of pressure due to funding not meeting their responsibilities or the kind of programs they want to give.
The original goal of the Trillium Foundation, when the government established it, was to provide assistance to people in Ontario who have been affected by adverse social circumstances or disabling conditions. That was the first, primary goal. The government has since added to that arts, culture, sports and recreation, economic development and the environment. Quite frankly, I thought the Trillium Foundation would have its hands full just trying to deal with providing assistance to people who have been affected by adverse social circumstances or disabling conditions. The children's aid society would be a clear example. The centre for community living would be a clear example.
You say you're going to be a member of a team -- I appreciate that -- but in a team one would hope there would be a diversity of views, because there are many competing needs. How do you see yourself prioritizing those competing needs?
Mrs Lessif: I'm not sure I quite understand.
Mr Cullen: To help you out, you've been involved with the curling club and you've been involved with the centre for community living. My personal priority, if they both came forward asking for $5,000 for a particular activity, is that I would tilt towards the centre for community living because I believe the needs they address might be a little bit more important than the curling club.
Mrs Lessif: I would have to concur with that decision, yes. I think on the whole that is a much more needy association. You have to do that logically: who comes to you with what and what their needs are. Like I said, I'd try not to say -- I guess most people would -- that just because I'm part of the curling club that's my main agenda. I'm trying to dissociate myself from that, because they're all needy. There are so many. I realize that. Tillsonburg maybe not so much; it's a very vibrant little town and it's gone through the economic times extremely well. But it has a lot of people who really care and we have a fair amount of nice tobacco money and other crops and a diverse industry base. We're very lucky. We're very centrally located, too.
I see it through our businesses in Woodstock and Ingersoll, for instance. I have not been involved a lot in Ingersoll. Our name's around. We've been there two years in business. There are a lot of needs there, I'm sure. It has given me a little bit broader base -- even just meeting the customers in the store and shopping there and doing things -- that there are many needs. Yes, it's going to be hard.
Mr Cullen: I'm pleased to hear it, because I was concerned when the government changed the mandate of the Trillium Foundation. I don't have any problem supporting the arts and culture and sports, economic development and the environment, but in my office in Ottawa West I see the walking wounded come in every day. These are people who have been affected by government programs. I know, from being on the children's aid society board and talking to the people from the centre for community living and other groups in my community, that there are needs out there.
We're just talking here. This appointment's going to go through; that's not the issue. But we are concerned about how the Trillium Foundation is going to best spend its money meeting the needs of the community. I hear you tell me meeting the needs. I see your voluntary background: Ronald McDonald House and also your activity with the hospital. It's a well-rounded one because I see you're involved with little theatre. My Lord, what don't you do?
There are only so many dollars, and in setting priorities I would think meeting need would be the primary focus. I see that you agree with me on this.
Mrs Lessif: I do. I said before that we're very fortunate, my family. We don't have to live on the street. We don't have to worry about going away for holidays and things like that. I feel strongly about giving back to those who are less fortunate. I was hoping that if I got nominated for this and got on, I would be doing that in a much bigger way than even through McDonald's.
Mr Cullen: Great.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Mr Cullen. We've got a few minutes for you, Mr Grimmett.
Mr Grimmett: Thank you very much for allowing us the opportunity to ask questions as well, Mr Chair. Many of the questions, actually, that you've been asked by our colleagues had occurred to me, because like all of us, they're also going through the process of encouraging people in their ridings to put their names forward for this very difficult task. As Mr Gravelle said, you're going to be exposed to a lot of pressure in these situations, where I would assume a lot of groups are going to come forward and you're probably going to have applications for more money than you have to give out.
You've got in the information you provided that you've been involved with various local service clubs. Could you maybe comment on what service clubs and what your involvement was there?
Mrs Lessif: When we first went to Tillsonburg, I joined the Kinettes and my husband was a Kinsman. Basically, that's the only major service group that I belong to, but we have helped the Lions Club with fundraisers and the Rotary Club with their show; they put on a show every year. We certainly sponsor that, John and I, as much as possible. John was actually a member up in Woodstock in the Rotary Club for a few years. We're trying to give back, but basically it's Kinsmen.
Mr Grimmett: You've described how you think this should be a team process. How do you see the team approaching the issue of differentiating between the different applications? Do you see yourself perhaps putting together a policy on how to deal with the various applications that come in?
Mrs Lessif: I think that would be wise, yes. You have to have some guidelines and some rules or whatever, understanding among yourselves that these are the basic guidelines so the little things don't creep in or the little things you don't have to worry about so much. But definitely, I think that would be wise. Most organizations have to have some kind of mandate or policy guidelines so you can review these fairly and make a decision.
Mr Grimmett: I thought Mr Cullen's question about the curling club was a very good question. My own background is from a small community where I belong to similar organizations that you've mentioned. Would there be possibly some organizations that would simply not be eligible, in your view?
Mrs Lessif: Some organizations that don't fit the charities or not-for-profit?
Mr Grimmett: Yes. You're going to get applications from groups that you're going to say no to. I think that's very likely.
Mrs Lessif: I think there definitely will be some, and you will have to advise them that they don't meet the criteria. For instance, the hospitals and the schools will not be eligible for this unless they work with one of the charities or not-for-profit organizations. If they come directly to you, you have to inform them that they have to go another route if they hope to get anything.
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): Can I just pick up on that? We've got a couple of minutes. I can appreciate the curling club versus, in Mr Cullen's case, community living. But if there is ever a time when people are coming to you to request funds, I don't think there should be any preconceived notion that they qualify or don't qualify. The criteria are there, and to assume prior to that team deciding whether or not they're eligible is a grey area to be involved in. I hope that the teams that look at this funding over the next number of years would be very open-minded as they come. That's one of the reasons the Trillium Foundation was expanded into the arts and into the sports and so on, so everybody would have the opportunity. It's not that they go before you and some of the members and you have a preconceived notion that just because they've got a certain type of building, they should not get it. I really hope that does not happen.
Without asking you any more questions, the comment you made about local people deciding on local needs -- if that doesn't convince us that you're the right person for the job, I don't know what would. I thank you for being here.
Mrs Lessif: Thank you. I just want to clarify. I don't mean to say that I would automatically say no to something like the curling, because I really love curling. It gave me a lot of hope. I'm not a very sports person, but I certainly enjoyed curling. I was athletic enough to enjoy it very much and I made a lot of friends. If anything is submitted to this grant review committee -- I mean, if I'm presented on my own somewhere outside, I would definitely take it to the committee, but the decision is not because it's my priority. If I felt good enough I would present my best case, but it's not up to me whether they get money or not.
The Vice-Chair: I have a motion for concurrence moved by Mr Grimmett.
Mr Grimmett: Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Any debate?
Mr Cullen: Clearly this is an excellent applicant and we're going to all approve her appointment, but I just want to touch on the original purpose of the Trillium Foundation, which is to basically fill in the cracks -- people in adverse social conditions. When I look at my community with respect to, for example, the mentally handicapped and the needs there, I know the team will make decisions and they will be looking at all applicants. I'm strengthened, if that's the right word -- encouraged, anyway -- by the applicant's comments that she's going to look at it based on needs. If we're to meet community needs, then I look forward to this. That's all I have to say.
The Vice-Chair: Any other comments? No? Very well.
Mr Stewart: I request a recorded vote.
Ayes
Beaubien, Cullen, Gravelle, Grimmett, Newman, Spina, Stewart.
The Vice-Chair: That was a unanimous vote, Mrs Lessif. Congratulations. I hope you enjoy your work.
Mrs Lessif: I'm looking forward and, again, I really do feel very honoured. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much for coming.
The meeting is adjourned. I ask the members of the subcommittee to remain behind so we can talk about future meetings.
The committee adjourned at 1032.