CONTENTS
Wednesday 24 November 1993
Ontario Food Terminal Board
Gary Ireland, chair
Bill Carsley, general manager
Bruce Nicholas, assistant general manager
Jeff Wilson, member, board of directors
William L. Northcote, legal counsel
Harold Brown, member, board of directors
Subcommittee report
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
*Chair / Présidente: Marland, Margaret (Mississauga South/-Sud PC)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East/-Est PC)
Bradley, James J. (St Catharines L)
*Carter, Jenny (Peterborough ND)
*Cleary, John C. (Cornwall L)
*Curling, Alvin (Scarborough North/-Nord L)
*Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East/-Est ND)
*Harrington, Margaret H. (Niagara Falls ND)
*Mammoliti, George (Yorkview ND)
*Marchese, Rosario (Fort York ND)
*Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
Witmer, Elizabeth (Waterloo North/-Nord PC)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present/ Membres remplaçants présents:
Villeneuve, Noble (S-D-G & East Grenville/S-D-G & Grenville-Est PC) for Mrs Witmer
Clerk / Greffière: Mellor, Lynn
Staff / Personnel:
Richmond, Jerry, research officer, Legislative Research Service
Yeager, Lewis, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met in closed session in room 228.
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ONTARIO FOOD TERMINAL BOARD
The Chair (Mrs Margaret Marland): I would like to call this meeting of the standing committee on government agencies to order. We are commencing the review of the Ontario Food Terminal. I would welcome Mr Gary Ireland, the chair; Ms Grace Dekker, the vice-chair; Mr Carsley, general manager; and Mr Northcote. I'm only looking at names on the list here. I understand you're the lawyer with Shibley Righton.
Perhaps, Mr Ireland, you could introduce the people in the seated positions so the committee members know who is who. We then invite you to go ahead with your presentation to the committee. We will wait until you've completed your presentation for our questions.
Mr Gary Ireland: I'll start by introducing them. Obviously you can tell that we have a very committed, dedicated board, because they're all here this morning. I'm not sure how many you had the last time, in 1988; I understand two or three of them were here. We have Diane Baltaz, Helen Lahti, Cameron Rundle, Harold Brown and, of course, Marianne Holder representing the ministry, and also Diane Coates Milne, who is acting as a resource person through the ministry.
The Chair: Could you introduce the people sitting with you so we know who is who, please.
Mr Ireland: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, with staff we have assistant general manager Bruce Nicholas; Bill Carsley; as you mentioned, Bill Northcote, our lawyer; Grace Dekker, our vice-chairman; and Jeff Wilson, a board member.
The Chair: And you're Mr Ireland.
Mr Ireland: I'm Mr Ireland. I guess you've all received a copy of the chairman's opening comments, opening statement.
The Chair: We're just going to distribute them to the committee now, so please go ahead.
Mr Ireland: It's whatever you wish, Madam Chairman. If you want me to read them, I will. I guess if you haven't seen them, maybe I should. I'm just going to go through and touch on them so we have more time for questions.
The Chair: I would just proceed, Mr Ireland. If you wish to highlight them or read them verbatim, that's up to you.
Mr Ireland: Okay. I'm going to try and just go through quickly and touch on them and then we can kind of open it up, if that's okay. If there's any particular thing you wanted me to go through in more detail, then I can do that. I'll just start out.
The Ontario Food Terminal is a wholesale produce market located on a 39-acre site at the eastern edge of Etobicoke. It has 475 grower tenants and 28 major warehouse tenants. Then, on the remainder of the first page, it goes into the board objectives: ensuring that the market flows efficiently and high-quality produce is available to the consumer at competitive prices; providing a central warehouse for Ontario growers and produce wholesalers to be able to sell directly to wholesale and retail; controlled buying hours, regulated shipping policies, a competitive marketplace where buyers and sellers can freely negotiate price in terms of sale; maintaining a good working relationship with wholesale tenants; making sure the market is properly maintained so that retailers and institutions can continue to use the market as a major source of fresh produce; and certainly making sure that the cash flow is sufficient to cover all the expenses, capital and maintenance expenditures.
Then it gets into where the board gets its revenue from. It's broken down into nine revenue-producing areas, the main areas being rents from the farmers' market and the A and B warehouse units, fees from cold storage and the entry toll charges.
It's the largest wholesale produce market in Canada, tonnage approximately 825,000 tonnes; 20% to 25% of the fresh produce grown in Ontario is sold at the terminal, with approximately 35% of the sales being Ontario-grown produce. Employment, direct and indirect, is estimated at over 15,000 people. The terminal's main trading area is the province of Ontario, Manitoba, parts of Quebec and the Maritimes.
There are more than 6,000 buyers registered with the food terminal board. The most important group of buyers at the terminal are the independent grocer retailers in Ontario, particularly in the Toronto area, of course, many of whom come every day. Major chains, while they're still there and are still visible by their existence there, are buying more and more either through direct store delivery or warehouse delivery.
The board is one of the largest taxpayers in Etobicoke, with an annual tax bill of $1.3 million.
Certainly the board has made considerable progress in recycling its waste, approximately 6,500 tonnes per year; 85% of the waste produce is recycled either for cattle food or composting and all the wood and cardboard waste is also recycled.
Of course, there were a number of recommendations that came out of the committee meetings back in 1988. Many of these have been acted upon and implemented.
At that time the committee recommended the board investigate the background of any new buyer or business operating at the terminal in order to be able to limit the number of leases one business can own to three. The board now follows this recommendation, and each prospective leaseholder has to go through a thorough check before being approved by the board. Now, as I say, it limits what the leaseholder or anyone can lease to three.
The food terminal proceeded with plans to build the five new C units and there were five prospective tenants who signed agreements to lease. However, three of the companies decided not to proceed so the units were never built. That was one of the recommendations, number 18.
Section 12 of the Ontario Food Terminal Act was removed via a private member's bill in late 1988. That was to do with the operation of any other wholesale produce market within the Toronto area.
The Ministry of Agriculture and Food now appoints a buyer to the board, along with a consumer representative and a representative from the community, which was recommendation 21.
The interests and concerns of the warehouse leaseholders are now conveyed to the board through a tenants' advisory committee, and the farmers' market leaseholders also have formed a similar committee that now meets with the board on a regular basis. These recommendations were recommendation 22.
The board has also improved its traffic flow, making it easier to move around the market. This has worked extremely well. Traffic jams have basically become non-existent, which was recommendation 24. That has been received very positively among all the people at the market. They say that's a heck of an improvement.
Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): Unless it's 3 o'clock in the morning.
Mr Ireland: Yes. The board's created a monthly pass that allows Ontario growers to pay by the month for using the farmers' market. This allows growers who have short-season crops such as strawberries to pay on a user basis only, which was another one of the recommendations, 25.
Certainly, the board is anxious to work with the committee in order to help the committee develop recommendations that will enhance the operation of the terminal.
I guess that's quickly going through the opening statement. It's certainly your agenda. Of course, we had received a copy from the research officer regarding a number of questions. We have responded with answers to those questions, which we have prepared for overhead if you wish, depending on how you would like to proceed.
The Chair: What is the wish of the committee? I would think perhaps they'd like to proceed. Would you like to proceed with that?
Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): How long is it? How long is it going to take?
The Chair: How long is it, Mr Ireland? Mr Curling is asking.
Mr Ireland: Well, there were quite a number of questions. How many overheads do we have, Bill?
Mr Bill Carsley: I think there are 14 or 15 overheads; it's fairly lengthy.
Mr Ireland: Are there any specifics that you would like to --
Interjection.
The Chair: You'd just like them to proceed and we'll ask the questions at the end, is that what you're saying?
Mr McLean: I'd like to ask questions now about a couple of things.
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): It may be useful, given that they've prepared this, to do it. The point is to do it as quickly as we can so that we can get to questions.
The Chair: Is there a consensus on that? Agreed. Go ahead, please.
Mr Ireland: How would it be then, as we show them, if there are any specifics you want to deal with on a certain recommendation, we can do it at that time if you wish?
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Lynn Mellor): Do you have hard copies of those?
Mr Carsley: Yes, we have copies. We may have to do it from the copies, because I don't think this is going to work very well.
Mr Bruce Nicholas: This is an aerial photograph of the Ontario Food Terminal looking from the west towards the city. It's bounded on this section here by the Queensway. This section here is Parklawn Road and, as you can see, up here is the Gardiner Expressway.
The market is divided into nine cost centres. The most visible one is the parking deck structure here, which covers one half of the farmers' market. The farmers' market is this section here, the entire section, one half covered by the parking deck. These units down along this side here and this side here are A units, which we refer to as A units, and they have an office section above.
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Mr Daniel Waters (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): Can you hold it for a moment. I believe they have to hook you to a mike for the purposes of Hansard.
Mr Nicholas: Is that better? All right, I'll repeat it quickly. This section here is the farmers' market, covered one half by a parking deck structure. The sections along here and along here are A produce units. There's an office wing above which we call our annual office cost centre, on both sides. The units down at this end here and this end here are called B units. They're smaller units and do not have offices with them and they do not face an area in the middle here known as the buyers' court, where the buyers park their trucks.
This large building here, with the inclusion of this extra building on the end, is our common cold storage, which is in total 90,000 square feet of common cold storage. The units are relatively small in size, being approximately 2,000 square feet on the store level. That is insufficient for the amount of produce they bring in, so they make use of a common cold storage which the board operates for them to store their product in.
There's a very small rail track area left in the market which comes in right in this section here, into a house track area. Rail car traffic has dropped from the thousands to less than 50 a year; and we have a house track. The other house track on the south side has been filled in to accommodate a larger buyer parking area for trucks, docks for them to load the trucks, which is a recommendation. The smaller building out here is a maintenance sanitation garage.
The total site is approximately 40 acres. The farmers' market is approximately eight acres. The main gate is located up in this section here off the Queensway, with the main exit coming down here on to Park Lawn Road, which will go on to the major highways. The access to the parking deck is situated right here. That allows car vehicles to come into the market without disruption of trucks. Approximately one million vehicles enter and exit the terminal in a year. That is the major outlook.
We're developing this area down here for additional farmers' market parking and roadways, and this picture here was taken before we made the new roadway pattern. This area here, which looks like it's undeveloped, is now fully utilized and designated as either parking or roadway area. That is what has helped improve the traffic flow around the market. As well, the congestion here on the Queensway parking: The vehicles have been moved out and proper roadways have been designed such that trucks can pull in and back into the back of these units without interfering with the farmers or the buyer flow of traffic. That is a general detail of what the market represents. As you'll see, the farmers are basically a space on asphalt, either as small as 300 square feet, 10 by 30 deep, or as large as 550.
Ms Margaret H. Harrington (Niagara Falls): What is the building on the upper left?
Mr Nicholas: The building on the upper left is our neighbour; that is not our property. Our property line goes right along like this and across. It's owned by Oshawa Foods, and sometimes it's misinterpreted as part of the terminal.
Mr Ireland: Shall we proceed, Madam Chair? We'll start with the questions, okay?
The Chair: All right.
Mr McLean: There's a maximum of three units that can be leased or owned by any company. How many would fit in that category that own up to three?
Mr Carsley: There are at least, I would say, seven companies that have more than three units, but that was already in place before the committee's recommendation. Anybody who has tried to buy an additional unit beyond three has actually been told by the board that they can't do it.
Mr McLean: How many own more than three and what would be the maximum that one individual company would have?
Mr Carsley: Our largest tenant -- Bruce, maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong on this -- has slightly under about an 18% share of the total space, but part of that is in the B unit section that Bruce was pointing out. That's Ontario Produce, which is part of the Oshawa Group.
Mr McLean: Would that be half of the units?
Mr Carsley: No. In terms of the number of units, they have one A and six Bs; seven units. Some of them are smaller units.
Mr McLean: What would the next one to that be? How many units would it have, five or six?
Mr Carsley: The next one would be Dominion Citrus, and it actually has a sublet as well. They have six.
Mr McLean: Does Knob Hill Farms have any in there now?
Mr Carsley: No. Knob Hill was never a tenant, as a selling tenant. They do rent office space from us for their buyers.
Mr McLean: Are they not initiating to set up something in there?
Mr Carsley: They have set up a wholesale cash and carry at their location on Eglinton Avenue, which really has just started in the last four months or so. But they do sell produce there.
Mr McLean: Is the value still about $1.5 million for some of those units? What is the value of them now? Are the A and B a different price?
Mr Carsley: Yes. The board doesn't always know all the details of how much money these units change hands for, but certainly during the main part of the recession, the unit that was sold went for far less than $1.5 million, probably more in the range of about $750,000 to $800,000.
Mr McLean: It's less than they were five years ago.
Mr Carsley: That's right. In fact, we had an empty unit for almost a whole year.
Mr McLean: And that's why the 10 units were never built.
Mr Carsley: Certainly one of the reasons.
Mr McLean: The other question I have has to do with regard to the fact that it appears your profits are up. You had run a few losses for 1991-92, but in 1992-93 I understand you made a profit.
Mr Carsley: No, in 1992-93 we actually lost money too. We lost I believe $68,000.
Mr McLean: Who covers your losses?
Mr Carsley: You have to look at it from the point of view of our total cash flow. We're not necessarily trying to make a large profit. As long as we have enough money through the cash flow from our depreciation, in particular, then we're able to cover the principal and interest on our loans and also our capital expenditures. We still have a good relationship with our bank. In the year we're in now, to date we're making $193,000 so far, so we should definitely have a profit this year.
Mr McLean: I thought I saw where your revenues were up by about $1 million, from $5 million to $6 million somewhere, and that your profit was over $400,000.
Mr Carsley: Maybe that's on an older one. They wouldn't have that yet, but I would have thought you would've been provided by the research people with our latest financial information.
Mr McLean: How much money is the social contract costing you?
Mr Carsley: It's $72,000, 4.4% of our wages.
Mr McLean: If you're losing money, how are you going to pay that?
Mr Carsley: The point is that we're making a profit now of $193,000. We're finding a considerable saving on our waste removal, so we do expect to have the funds to be able to pay that. I think our chairman is currently waiting for a letter from the Treasurer regarding the social contract, because we don't receive and never have really received any funds from general revenue. We carry ourselves. Really the only money the board did get from the government was a BILD grant to help finance the building of the parking deck. Our board is very firm in stressing that it doesn't think we should be part of the social contract.
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Mr McLean: So your staff is down from 41 to 39. Do you plan any further reductions?
Mr Carsley: To 36, actually.
Mr McLean: Do you plan any further reductions?
Mr Carsley: In order to keep up our level of service, I don't think we can make any more reductions.
Mr McLean: Thank you. I'll pass for now, Madam Chair. Maybe some others have some questions.
Mr Waters: You said you don't know the value of these units when they change hands. I find it amazing that people have the ability to sublet or whatever and you, as the board that runs the place, have no idea of what's going on in there.
Mr Carsley: Well, we do have a fairly good idea, yes. But the last situation that took place was that there was a trading of some units as well, so we're not exactly sure what the final figure was. The one I mentioned was, we thought, about $800,000.
Certainly we know what all the sublets go for, but you must remember that if it's an exchange of shares, then the board does not get an opportunity to rule on the assignment because the corporate entity stays the same. It's only when the assets change, when the assets are purchased.
Mr Waters: I noticed in some of the background papers legislative research that did you have a drop in tonnage. Then on page 2 you talk about major chain stores buying their produce direct and not using the food terminal. Is that something new? Is that why there is a drop in tonnage, or part of the reason why?
Mr Carsley: No, I think the drop in tonnage is probably mainly due to the recession. It's certainly part of it, and some of the larger buyers, the independent chain stores, are buying more product direct. But we still have 6,000 listed buyers, and the backbone of our buying group is really the greengrocery stores from Oshawa through to Niagara Falls. The major chain stores haven't been a factor at the terminal since about 1977 or 1978. They still buy there, but not a great deal.
Mr Waters: Somewhere in the papers I remember reading something about -- I gather it's the C units that you didn't go ahead with. You had pre-sold tenancy to five or six people.
Mr Carsley: Five companies.
Mr Waters: They had put money into it up front and there was some discussion about whether they should get their money back. I saw that in one of the background papers I was looking at.
Mr Carsley: That's correct. This is before the courts at this moment, so I don't think I can really comment on it.
Mr Waters: I just remembered seeing that somewhere. I have more questions back here.
The Chair: I have three other speakers, if you'd like me to move on. I have Mr Cleary, Ms Carter and then Ms Harrington.
Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I've been speaking to some companies that probably get their produce from a province other than Ontario. They tell me that this past year has been an excellent year for them, that they had their dull moments but that this past year it's really picked up. Do you find that's the case too?
Mr Carsley: In our farmers' market section it would appear that the growers have had an excellent year. The prices have been better on most commodities, and our figures show that the farmers' market certainly has been more active this summer than it has for the past two summers.
Mr Cleary: One other question I have: Is the percentage of non-Ontario produce that's handled at the terminal holding about the same as it always has been, or is that up or down?
Mr Carsley: We feel that our share of market for Ontario -- I'm talking about the total terminal, not just the farmers' market but the warehouse part of the market and the farmers' market -- the Ontario part of that, depending on the year, ranges between 30% and 35% of our total sales. It's hard for us to say whether that's gone up or down. My perception is perhaps that share probably has gone down a little bit, the total Ontario sales.
Mr Cleary: There's another thing I was going to ask. I'm not exactly sure how it's handled at your operation, but I know of a small operation in eastern Ontario where, over the period of a year, they have a lot of food that may be discontinued lines and different things like that. Sooner than taking it to the dump, which used to happen, they've been a great contributor to the food banks. I was just wondering if that would be the case in your operation too.
Mr Carsley: The Daily Bread Food Bank comes to the terminal on a regular basis, almost on a daily basis, and we also have Second Harvest coming to the food terminal on a less regular basis.
Our total waste produce as a percentage of our total tonnage is very small, I think under 0.5%, so we don't throw away very much. But the food banks do come to the terminal, and all our tenants have product from time to time for the food banks that might be slightly off spec or might be slightly aged but still all right for human consumption if it were quickly consumed.
Mr Cleary: That's discontinued lines too, or do you get into that?
Mr Carsley: No. A discontinued line would probably be more in the processing industry.
Mr Cleary: Those are my questions for now, Madam Chairman.
Mr Ireland: If I can add a little to Mr Cleary's question regarding the non-Ontario produce --
Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): I was going to ask about that.
Mr Ireland: Maybe I should leave that to your question then.
Mr Jeff Wilson: I'd like to mention, if I could, another initiative known as the Field to Table initiative, which has received a contribution from the government. It is attempting to provide affordable food in the inner-city, low-income areas of Toronto. The board is familiar with these types of initiatives and has been trying to incorporate them within the infrastructure we have to facilitate this, recognizing, as the honourable members mentioned, that it's an issue and we're trying to do what we can to contribute to a solution to the problems.
Ms Carter: We did touch on the question of where your produce comes from. You said that the proportion of Ontario produce hadn't changed very much, but it seems to me you're under several different pressures here and I'm just wondering how those are working out. For example, I understand the ministry would like you to have Ontario produce more or less exclusively at the farmers' market. We also have pressures to reduce barriers to interprovincial trade in this country, so obviously there'd be resistance if you tried to keep stuff from other provinces out. Then of course we have the free trade agreement and NAFTA coming up, which open us up to more importations from across the border. How are these three factors coming together and influencing what you see happening?
Mr Ireland: That's an excellent question. As I mentioned, we've got the total board here, so if anybody in the background wishes to respond at all, I guess they can feel free to do so.
The Chair: Definitely, as long as they come forward to a microphone.
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Mr Ireland: We view the Ontario Food Terminal, when we look at the total operation as far as the inside is concerned, the A and B units, that there's produce in there from virtually all over. The approach our board has taken and I believe previous boards as well and, as you have mentioned, that our provincial ministry has taken, is that we view that the original intent of the farmers' market was as a place for Ontario growers to market their produce competitively among themselves. You have times when product comes in from out of province, other provinces, supposedly out of season from our product. Who defines what is out of season and what is in season becomes an issue, and then you run into produce that comes from outside of Canada. It has been challenged before, and it's about to be challenged again.
It's a very serious issue, in our view. We met with the minister a year ago and he was certainly very supportive of our view. I feel he agreed with our view. We had examples from other provinces, for example, Quebec: You have the market in Montreal, and there the farmers' market is virtually designated for Quebec produce; it's for their producers.
This is just the view we take. If it's from out of province, whether it's from another province or from outside the country, the US or wherever, our view is that it makes no difference, because it can be just as serious a problem whether it's another province or whether it's from outside the country.
In terms of a barrier to trade, we look at the terminal as a total operation. Certainly you have produce there on the inside, the A and B units, that is traded from wherever, from all over the world. I don't really see, based on that approach to the overall operation, how that could be viewed as a barrier to trade. It's only the farmers' market section that we feel is an area that was originally intended for a place for Ontario producers to market their produce.
Ms Carter: How would that work, for example, with something like strawberries? Would you have imports from elsewhere during our strawberry season or at other times, or how does that go?
Mr Ireland: Let's use California as an example. Obviously, their season is earlier than ours, and they would come in under permit to the market. Supposedly, that's till our season opens up and then ours kind of takes over. But then it comes to a very grey area, maybe more so interprovincially, about what's in season for them and what's in season for us.
Ms Carter: Do the local growers suffer from competition, from strawberries coming in during their own season? Does that come in sometimes more cheaply than the prices they charge, or do they have a fairly --
Mr Ireland: It can be a factor. If they were to come in at cheaper prices, and even prior to our domestic season if they were to come in at lower prices, then obviously that's starting out as the market price. When our product comes on stream, basically they've got to be competitive, so it's very difficult to all of a sudden jump prices if that's going to be the domestic price.
Mr Jeff Wilson: I think it should be added that as a whole at the food terminal, Ontario farmers are competing with the best of the world on an equal basis on what we view as the inside market, meaning the covered A and B unit stalls. The farmers' market is a different kettle of fish, as it were, in that that is where we are competing among one another -- in other words, my strawberries against my neighbour's strawberries -- where there is far more value applied to quality, freshness, appearance, what have you.
We're very concerned on the farmers' market that to date, where out-of-province product has appeared there, it tends not to meet those high standards we are trying to achieve through the competitive marketplace among ourselves in the farmers' market, to the point that it has been raised by resolution by the Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers' Association, representing over 10,000 fruit and vegetable producers in the province, to have the farmers' market itself designated as an Ontario-only farmers' market. That's been supported and is continuing to be supported by a number of specific commodities in the province, notably the Ontario Apple Marketing Commission.
Ms Carter: Is that likely to happen, that it will be restricted?
Mr Jeff Wilson: This isn't a new issue; it goes back as far as the early 1980s and was brought to a head in 1985 and 1987. Apparently, it appears to be easier to try and resolve this through a regulatory change as opposed to opening the act up. Our opinion, from what we've been told, is that it's going to take a substantive revision within the act, which isn't impossible, but it boils down to, is there the political will there to do it? The Ontario farmers are saying: "This is what we need. This is what we require. We feel it's a just request to ask that the act be looked at in order to accommodate these changes."
Ms Harrington: When you were just talking now about the farmers' market, that's not open to the public, is it?
Mr Jeff Wilson: No.
Ms Harrington: You mentioned 15,000 people in your initial presentation; the way it was put was that it provides direct and indirect employment to over 15,000 people. Obviously, those people would still be employed in the business in some way, even if there weren't a food terminal operating in the same manner as it is now. That's a very broad statement. Those people would have jobs, I'm sure.
Mr Carsley: Yes, many of them are store owners, for instance, that might have three or four people working in their store who would use produce as their main, shall we say, selling category. So that's how we arrived at that number. But I think we have about 1,500 people who work in the market directly, full- and part-time, and we have all the buyers who come in. On a busy day in the terminal, you could get between 3,000 and 4,000 people going through that place.
Ms Harrington: You mentioned 1,500. Who are those people?
Mr Carsley: Those people are directly employed at the terminal. We have 36 employees, but our tenants all have employees. The farmers have employees in their stalls, you see, and that sort of thing.
Ms Harrington: Okay, that makes it a little clearer.
Mr Carsley: All the main produce brokers for Ontario have offices at the terminal, so there is a large number of offices there as well.
Ms Harrington: I have a couple of comments, and then I'll ask another question. You were concerned about the impact of the social contract, the moneys you mentioned. Being from Niagara Falls, the area I represent, I've been in contact over the last while with the Niagara Parks Commission, and it's in the same situation. They don't receive any money from this government -- I'm sure there are quite a few other examples of this as well -- and yet they are contributing their amount.
Mr McLean: Are you sure?
Ms Harrington: Yes. In your efforts to promote conservation and waste reduction, from what I gather -- we've got some background material -- you've really done an excellent job over the last while. Have things really changed in the way you operate with regard to waste in the last, say, five to 10 years?
Mr Carsley: Very much so. To be honest with you, at one time we took all our stuff to the Metro landfill. It was great when it was $16.50 a tonne. But when it started to get up over $100, no matter what, you couldn't go there any more; you couldn't afford to. Obviously, there's the social aspect of it too, but if you look at it from a straight economic point of view, we have to find other things to do. We have to recycle, so we really basically recycle almost everything now.
Ms Harrington: That's what we're trying to do, of course, with the rest of the whole province.
Mr Carsley: Yes. Certainly our operations manager has done a very good job in heading up this, and he's done a good job for us in helping us save money in this area.
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Ms Harrington: My question was on a different item, and that is the question of privatization. I just wondered how you viewed that. I notice that in the last year, I guess it has been, the Ontario Stock Yards are now going to be leased and creating a livestock industry trust fund. I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts on that possibility.
Mr Carsley: In the notes that we've prepared here, in the answers, those questions are addressed.
Ms Harrington: Yes. We didn't see those.
Mr Carsley: You've just seen those. In the last meetings with the committee back in 1988, I think Mr Runciman brought that up, that possibly privatization should be looked at. At that time, or just after that, a delegation went to New York City to see how they privatized their market there. Obviously, there are pros and cons to privatization. It's something that the board has not considered in depth really.
Ms Harrington: Okay. I'll leave it at that and I'll read your answers here. Thank you.
Mr Curling: Mr Ireland, I have before me a briefing note that came from the minister, and the question was put, "Why was the agency created?" Let me just read it, because I want to make a comment and ask you a question on that matter. It says:
"The board was created through the passage of the Ontario Food Terminal Act in 1946 with a mandate to acquire, construct, equip and operate a wholesale fruit and produce market in the municipality of Metropolitan Toronto or the regional municipality of York, and to acquire and operate such facilities for the transportation and handling of fruit and produce as may be necessary for the purpose of the terminal."
Then the other question was put, "Does the agency still fulfil its original purpose?" He said, "The board and the terminal continue to fulfil their original mandate," and it goes on.
Over the years, since 1946 to now, the palates of the people have changed in Ontario dramatically; in other words, the multicultural diversity etc. So the taste buds changed. When I listen to you and the board, it seems that you have changed somehow. It seems that protection for Ontario produce is in there and the promotion of Ontario produce. In some areas, in some of the briefing notes and some of your reports, it talks about the cutback of cut flowers, imported things and all that. There seem to be more cutbacks coming and you're kind of pulled in two ways: one, that this produce start coming in to be managed through the terminal.
Would you say your mandate itself is maintained in the same way as what the minister is stating, but somehow you're changing in some other direction? I know the question might be a little bit confusing, but somehow I get the impression from you that things are changing and there's a sort of protectionist aspect coming about in Ontario produce.
Mr Ireland: I don't look at it as we're changing; I view it as this has been an ongoing problem that has arisen at times over the years, and it's been a grey area. Basically, what we're trying to do is get clarification on the issue, basically just on the farmers' market. As far as the rest of the terminal is concerned, I don't think our mandate has changed at all. I think it remains the same.
Mr Curling: May I put it this way? Why then would a decision come about to have a cutback on imported cut flowers? I was just trying to understand that. If all things can be passed through the terminal, why would there be a decision made to restrict them?
Mr Ireland: The restriction has been on flowers coming in that we do not produce in Ontario.
Mr Curling: That's what this says.
Mr Ireland: To my understanding, that still remains the same.
Mr Carsley: If I may, Mr Curling, I don't think the board is really trying to be protectionist. What the board would like and what the main growing groups in Ontario would like is an Ontario farmers' market that sells only Ontario-produced product. The board has a lease that the growers sign which actually says you're only supposed to sell Ontario product. Unfortunately, this lease has been challenged in court and the board lost, particularly over an issue of PEI potatoes.
One of the reasons, of course, why this is a problem is that the board would like to continue, if it could, with an Ontario-only farmers' market, but we need something in our act to be able to make a regulation that allows us to have the thing stand up in court if we're challenged. Because it's a government body, the leases apparently don't mean very much, and if we don't have something in our act to allow us to make a regulation, then it becomes a problem. There are certain large grower-dealers out there ready to challenge us on that issue.
Mr Ireland: If I could expand on this, Mr Curling, just to give you a bit of an example of how serious this situation is becoming at the moment, this has been a grey area that, as you are quite aware, has kind of arisen at times over the years, but we've always been able to kind of shove it under the carpet and deal with it and continue on. But as Bill has mentioned, some of the larger grower-dealers out there -- we were told quite recently to expect US potatoes in the farmers' market. The comment has come back to me directly, "Well, I guess if that's the case, then what is to stop me from bringing BC Spartans into the farmers' market?" I guess there would be nothing to stop them. Those could come in at a certain price or they could come in on consignment, and that could be a very serious situation.
Mr Curling: But that hasn't changed your mandate. Your mandate is basically that if it comes in, you have to deal with that.
Mr Ireland: Right.
Mr Curling: Whether it's imported vegetables or whatever it is, you deal with that. But you're saying that the political will is not there yet to deal with that, to decide what you should do and whether your mandate should change?
Mr Ireland: That appears to be the case because, as Bill has mentioned, it was challenged before and the board lost. The situation now is, yes, we would have to deal with it. But under the present legislation, if we were to lose, then the consequences could be very serious.
Mr Jeff Wilson: I think also the point, if I understand the question correctly, dealt with the issue of, are the production commodities being produced by Ontario farmers not changing to reflect the changing palate of our society? I would suggest they are. In our own case, on my farm, our highest-dollar-value crop sold at the food terminal this year was snow peas, which went entirely into the oriental foodservice industry. So I would suggest that in cohesion with the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food, Ontario farmers are very rapidly exploring the niche potential, or what appeared to be a niche potential but is actually emerging as mainstream opportunities and challenges, to satisfy the demands of what the consumers themselves want.
Mr William L. Northcote: If I could add one further comment to my client's comments, there are really two aspects to this, Mr Curling. The first aspect is a small area of the terminal itself for Ontario producers to compete among themselves in. The second aspect, which is dealt with in the answers, is that the farmers' market facility is not really appropriate for a large, full-scale wholesale operation, because it's essentially an open-air parking lot which people use on a daily basis and it doesn't have the same kind of facilities as are appropriate for someone who's doing a large-volume import business.
Mr Noble Villeneuve (S-D-G & East Grenville): Thank you very much for being here this morning. I must confess I've never been to the Ontario Food Terminal, in spite of the fact that I've been here for 10 years as an MPP.
I gather you have two major areas: the farmers' market and the major wholesalers. I've always understood that it was a prize plum to have a spot there. I was surprised by your statement that you had one unit that stayed vacant for almost two years. Who's your major competition in the wholesaling?
Mr Carsley: There is no other market like our wholesale market, like the Ontario Food Terminal, in Ontario. Our trading area is the whole of Ontario and parts of Quebec, even parts of the Maritimes, maybe parts of Manitoba. But there's lots of competition. There are many, many wholesalers outside the market who wholesale fruits and vegetables and buy direct and totally ignore the market.
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Mr Villeneuve: Ignore the food terminal.
Mr Carsley: I'm sorry, ignore the food terminal; "terminal" and "market" I sort of use interchangeably.
For instance, all the new warehouse stores, like Price Club, have produce sections, and they're supposedly wholesale operations. As Mr McLean mentioned, we have Knob Hill Farms just going into a very, very large wholesale cash and carry operation that has a produce section about 40,000 square feet. I just point that out as there being lots of competition.
Mr Villeneuve: So the prize plum that's perceived by some people to have a spot at the Ontario Food Terminal may not be as valuable as it was even just five years ago?
Mr Carsley: That's certainly possible. We have a situation whereby these independent chain stores, such as Knob Hill, Highland Farms, Sunkist, which are independent retailers, maybe with four or five stores, that build, shall we say, their merchandising around produce, many of those people are buying a lot more direct and not off the terminal. So the people on the terminal, such as our growers and our warehouse tenants, have to be very sharp with their pricing, because they have to compete against the possibility of direct purchases too. I would say that perhaps the profitability is not quite as great as some people think. They work on very, very slim margins.
Mr Villeneuve: And volume. Your main area is your main wholesale area. How many of those would be subleased by the people who lease from you initially? Would it be 75%?
Mr Carsley: No, no. Let's see. I can think of three that are sublets, three units.
Mr Villeneuve: Has this changed in the last five years? Did you have more sublets?
Mr Carsley: No, I'd say it's remained static.
Mr Villeneuve: It still intrigues me to see a unit vacant for two years. Did you have a price on that unit that you had to come down on considerably? It just doesn't seem to be a normal situation.
Mr Carsley: No. What you have to understand is that we still got rent. The wholesaler who had the unit had moved to two other units from one unit. He was not able to sublet or sell his lease for this unit for over a year.
Mr Villeneuve: You had no jurisdiction over it then?
Mr Carsley: No.
Mr Villeneuve: You've no idea where he started and what he finally settled for?
Mr Carsley: I can tell you that he settled -- and this may sound horrendous, but I might as well be totally frank -- for at least a million dollars less than what he was asking.
Mr Villeneuve: Therein I guess is why we've got you people here this morning. There's an area there that seems to be difficult to pin down, yet your figures have shown some red ink, and that's of concern. And the entire future, what's coming down the pipe for a food terminal like what you have, the competition, is of concern.
I would certainly as an Ontario farmer like to see strictly Ontario produce, but that's not being very realistic at all. Yet we've got to encourage and protect to some degree. That's the main reason why the food terminal is there. So we've got a dilemma here that we're attempting to cope with, and also see public funds used as efficiently as possible.
Mr Harold Brown: Madam Chair, just a point of clarification.
The Chair: Could you identify yourself, please.
Mr Harold Brown: I'm Harold Brown. I'm on the board of directors. There are no public funds being used.
Mr Villeneuve: It's a public asset.
Mr Harold Brown: Fine, but there are no funds being used.
Mr Villeneuve: Yes, I guess that's what I meant. Sorry.
Mr McLean: If I could have a clarification, with regard to the unit that they have been discussing that was vacant, the board still got its money every month? There was no loss to the board over the period of time?
Mr Carsley: No.
Mr McLean: So regardless of whether it was empty or not, you were still collecting your revenue.
Mr Carsley: Right.
Mr Robert Frankford (Scarborough East): Could you clarify for me, with the farmers' market is there increased use, an increased demand for participation in that?
Mr Carsley: As I mentioned, this year the growers have had a very good year. We've had many daily visits by growers. The number of times the tenants or stall holders have come in to use their stalls has gone up. I would say that this year, when we come to measure it, the tonnage in the farmers' market has gone up, whereas in the warehouse part of the market it's probably remaining static or going down a little, even this year.
The fact is that the farmers' market actually has enjoyed, over the years, very good growth. While it levelled off -- last year was a bum year and the year before also was not terribly good -- it seems to have come back very nicely this year.
Mr Frankford: I'm wondering if one can interpret that the warehouse is under some competition and can be bypassed, while the farmers' market perhaps is reflecting a new trend which perhaps should be encouraged. Would it be correct that one could envisage splitting it into two?
Mr Carsley: It's certainly the case that the two markets complement each other. When the farmers' market is busy, particularly in the summer and fall months, then the warehouse part of the market isn't as busy because the local produce is available. Generally, it's good quality at quite often lower prices.
The one thing that is a real plus at the terminal is that all the main buyers are there so that growers have an opportunity to meet, almost on a daily basis, the main produce buyers in the province of Ontario. Very often what happens is that a buyer will come by and say to a peach grower, "Don't bother bringing anything to the market tomorrow; I'll take everything you've got, 10 pallets, 15 pallets," that type of thing. Deals are made there but the product never sees the market, so it is sort of a meeting place for buyers and sellers to get together and often make a deal that totally bypasses the market.
Mr Frankford: So there is a sort of synergy of having the two things together like that.
Mr Carsley: Yes, having the two markets together. To give you an example, we had a very severe strike at the terminal a couple of years ago; there was quite bit of, shall we say, traffic delay and people being held up getting into the market.
The ministry was able to make arrangements for the farmers' market to be relocated during the period of the strike at the exhibition grounds. The assistant deputy minister came down and talked to a large group of fairly angry farmers, I may say, at the time, and he put forward the proposition, "You can all move down to the exhibition grounds." They screamed and shouted and said: "There's no damn way we're moving down to the exhibition grounds. We're all in here, we're all together. The warehouse has complemented the farmers' market and we're not moving."
There's a very strong feeling between the two groups, the growers and the warehouse tenants. While they compete, they're also very strongly in favour of the market system the way it's set up now.
Mr Frankford: The question was raised of changing demands, niche markets, which I assume includes organic crops and, in particular, ethnic foods. I assume you really need the farmers' market to bring in those relatively small-scale niche items.
Mr Carsley: Jeff could comment on that better than I.
Mr Jeff Wilson: Now that the season is winding down, other than our winter storage crops, I think everyone in the room might be surprised at how much time Ontario farmers are going to spend this winter learning about what the future holds, because I think we've all accepted that change is in the air. It's inevitable, and how do we adapt to that change?
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I think your first question dealt with, is there increased demand at the farmer's market? There has been, and we've met that by incorporating some additional stall space in the new section south of the exit ramp, but also with the idea down the road that as that demand grows, if it grows, we can incorporate along the southern fringe of the terminal itself.
But essentially a farmer has several opportunities. If I were, say, an organic producer with a very small amount of product, I still have the opportunity of going in and, on a daily basis, purchasing a day pass to sell my product that day. Many farmers do that on a once- or twice-a-week basis, so there's been a great degree of flexibility in how to incorporate and accommodate some of the changing flavours and demands that are being driven, ultimately, by the consumer.
The Chair: We have four speakers, Cleary, Marchese, McLean and Waters, and we have to finish at five to 12.
Mr Cleary: I had three questions but it's down to one now. The rest have been answered.
One thing that's been somewhat bothersome to me over a number of years is that we've had a lot of problems in eastern Ontario with labour, like the Quebec workers coming in when we didn't have the same opportunities in Quebec. You made me feel somewhat better when you said a lot of your produce was going into the province of Quebec. I think I understood you to say that.
Mr Carsley: Some produce, yes. Quebec is a fairly large market for Ontario produce, but I think the point our chairman made a few minutes ago was that at the Quebec wholesale market, the marché central, the farmer's market section doesn't allow Ontario produce.
Mr Cleary: That's getting around to my question. I know I can go, in our part of Ontario, to the back door of any restaurant and probably grocery store and I can see all kinds of crates marked "product of the province of Quebec." I know it's being brought in. I don't know whether that's legal, but that's especially at the restaurants. I'm talking fresh fruit and vegetables.
Mr Jeff Wilson: I think we have to be clear, we're not talking about not allowing out-of-province product into the province. We're dealing specifically with a chunk that amounts to about 17% of the food terminal property, the farmers' market. In fact, some eastern Ontario wholesalers probably utilize both the Ottawa infrastructure for distributing product and the Montreal infrastructure to service those eastern Ontario restaurants and small greengrocers simply because they may be closer in terms of just distance than they would be to the food terminal in Toronto itself.
Mr Ireland: But you're also right, Mr Cleary. Traditionally, it's been easier to move product from Quebec into Ontario than it has been to move product from Ontario into Quebec. Certainly last year, not this past year but in the 1992 growing season in certain commodities, it was at certain times virtually impossible to move product into Quebec, which is another issue, and there are reasons for that.
In fact, some of us attended a meeting in Ottawa back in October and met with some of the Quebec producers to try and deal with this issue. They were not even aware of some of the problems that existed, and we had proof to show them that it did exist last year. It was virtually agreed, though, that this year it was going to be a non-issue because the size of the crop was down compared to last year and that would not be a problem. I was not home for two days when I got a call that it was already a problem, with loads being rejected going into Quebec. There were permits for loads being rejected.
Mr Cleary: Strawberries were mentioned here. In the eastern part of the province you don't even get Ontario strawberries in the restaurants; it's all province of Quebec. I've made it my business to go around and find out. It's somewhat bothersome to me.
Mr Marchese: I couldn't help but detect Mr Brown's annoyance at some of the remarks Mr Villeneuve made with respect to possible losses, or how we generate funds, or loss of revenues under whatever arrangement. I can't remember clearly what Mr Villeneuve said. But the remarks Mr Brown made that there are no public funds suggested to me that if we as a government do not put in any money we should not be overly worried about revenue generation or losses, however they happen, and how we make up for them.
My point is that given it is a publicly owned facility, even if the government does not put in money, if we were to generate money as a result it would be good for us as a government and for the people of Ontario in terms of what we could do with profits if there were profits to be made. So we have an interest, the public has an interest in that regard. Whether we put in money or not, because it's publicly owned, we all have a stake in how well we're doing.
I would presume Mr Brown would agree with the remarks I'm making.
Mr Harold Brown: It was just that the way the question was put, it seemed there was an inference that if there was a loss shown we were taking money from the government in order to equalize, and that has not been so. The market has been self-sufficient. If the market shows in the red, then the rent goes up and the costs are absorbed.
Mr Marchese: Thank you for the clarification. In the briefing we have, there are a number of ways in which moneys are raised by the terminal. Could someone just indicate for the record what those nine areas are, or possibly more?
Mr Carsley: Bruce, when he did his overview of the market, indicated what the nine areas were.
The main source of revenue is of course from rents: rents from the A and B unit cost centre, as we call it, the farmers' market cost centre, the parking cost centre, the restaurant cost centre, the railyard cost centre, because we charge a toll for railcars coming in to be unloaded. We also charge a toll charge to large trucks coming in to deliver produce; that's our road and gate cost centre. We have an annual office cost centre. Have I left something out? Oh yes, we have a short-term leaseholder cost centre. We have space that we rent on a short-term basis, 10- to 12-year leases. I think that makes up the nine.
Mr Marchese: Have any of the costs that we charge to restaurants or parking or rail gone up considerably over the last three years?
Mr Carsley: We've tried our best to hold our rents down -- in fact, we haven't had a major rent increase for three years -- because of the recession. We do take a lot of depreciation; our depreciation works out at about $550,000 a year. We've been able to get by quite nicely over the last couple of years where we have shown a loss.
This year we expect to have a profit, and as Harold says, if need be, we'll have to put the rents up considerably in order to cover that. We haven't wanted to do that during this time of recession when many of our tenants have had some difficult times. We've tried to hold the --
The Chair: Excuse me, Mr Carsley, you've mentioned depreciation to the committee two or three times. How do you do that depreciation?
Mr Carsley: Depreciation is a non-cash item. In other words, you take it from the statements --
The Chair: It's on the books.
Mr Carsley: -- but it's actual cash you have available to use. If you look at our annual report, I believe our cash flow, if you want, looking at our source and uses, this year came to about $630,000 even with our loss taken off that.
That money is cash we have available to pay the principal and interest on our debt plus our, shall we say, capital expenditures.
The board has never had as one of its objects to make a large profit. In fact, if the board incurs a surplus, then in our act it actually states that we have to give that surplus back in the form of reduced rents and fees to our tenants. That's what it says in our act, you see. If we made a whole lot of money and Queen's Park decided they wanted it, I guess we'd have to ask our tenants first. That's the way the act reads: The money is to be kept within the terminal.
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Mr Marchese: When was that written?
Mr Carsley: In 1946, I guess, or 1947; whenever.
Mr Marchese: I see. Is it your view that perhaps we might look at updating that particular point?
Mr Carsley: I think one of our points here today is that our act has to be updated; we're working in the Dark Ages. So do our bylaws, regulations 872 and 871. They all have to be updated, and it should start with the act.
Mr Marchese: Have you had discussions with the ministry about this?
Mr Carsley: Of course.
Mr Marchese: Ongoing, presumably?
Mr Carsley: Yes, right.
Mr Marchese: We are contemplating some changes to the act, are we?
Mr Carsley: The ministry doesn't have problems in terms of changing the regulations. The act, to be changed, has to come before the Legislature. I guess in the past five or so years, we've always been told by the ministry that there is more important legislation to bring forward in terms of other issues that maybe relate more directly to agriculture.
Mr Marchese: I see this as a complete disincentive for the terminal in terms of how it can generate money to renovate, to build, to come up with a greater vision for the terminal in some ways, incrementally, presumably. It's a disincentive, is it not, this particular clause?
Mr Carsley: Not really. I think we've tried to maintain, shall we say, a balance, not tried to make a huge surplus ever, in order to keep our rents down. The new farmers' market with the cover was established in 1982, and during the 11-year period, I think the total rent increase over that period has been about 4% in total.
Mr McLean: I have about five questions, but I'll try to make them a little shorter. I'm curious: The salaries and benefits have gone up. They're over $2 million now. Has the staff there had an increase in salary this year?
Mr Carsley: There has been no increase this year, no.
Mr McLean: Was there one last year?
Mr Carsley: Yes, there was one last year.
Mr McLean: How much was it last year? What per cent?
Mr Carsley: It was 1.8%.
Mr McLean: The interest that is in here, the $671,000, what is that on? Do you have a loan?
Mr Carsley: That's on our debt. We have outstanding debts, for our major cold storage renovation and our addition, of approximately $6 million, I think it is.
Mr McLean: That's what your debt is?
Mr Carsley: Yes. Some of it's at prime, the part that's guaranteed by the province. The major part of the debt isn't guaranteed by the province and it's at a quarter over prime.
Mr McLean: I'm curious why the depreciation is in under revenue. You'd indicated it's a surplus.
Mr Carsley: No, it's in as a cost. It's in as an expense, but then it's a non-cash item, if you see what I mean.
Mr McLean: It's under expenses?
Mr Carsley: Yes.
Mr McLean: Why is depreciation in there under expenses?
Mr Carsley: We're set up like a normal corporation. We take depreciation. I don't think in the government books -- I could be wrong -- you take depreciation.
Mr McLean: Waste removal: You'd indicated that you've done a lot. I see it's up to $665,000.
Mr Carsley: If you look at our latest figures, and we have copies of this for the committee, in 1992 it was $756,000. This last year, ending March 31, 1993, it was $601,000. This year, because we've made more savings through recycling, we suspect it'll be down to probably more like about $500,000.
Mr McLean: I was just looking at this. It's from the food terminal.
Mr Carsley: That may not be the latest report.
Mr McLean: It isn't? It says up to 1994. That's what the projection is.
Mr Carsley: Oh, okay. All right, then.
Mr McLean: I have that one too, but that's different from this.
The final one that I have is with regard to legal fees. I see that has been jogging along at the same rate year over year. What cases have you got now that you're dealing with before the courts? Do you have a lawyer on staff, full-time?
Mr Carsley: No, we use Shibley Righton as our lawyers. A lot of the legal fees come about because of leases and that sort of thing: redesigning leases for the offices etc. Our big legal bill came about in 1991, I guess, when we had the strike and we had to go to court. We had two strikes. We had the PSAC strike and we had the Oshawa Foods strike and we had to go to court for injunctions four times. So our legal bill for that was about $65,000. But generally it's run-of-the-mill things like leases etc.
The Chair: Mr Waters, maybe for just a couple of minutes and then we have to decide what we're going to do, I think.
Mr Waters: I have a whole page of questions, but I want to quickly investigate a couple of things. One was the land. Who owns the land that the food terminal sits on?
Mr Carsley: The deed to the land is in the name of the food terminal board. It's similar to what happened with the situation at the stock yards.
Mr Waters: Initially the province invested some money into the food terminal, or there was a loan or something that was guaranteed?
Mr Carsley: No, there was a bond issue that ended up being bought up by the Hydro pension fund, so I guess the bonds got sold off to several different institutions, and that's fully paid off. Nothing came out of general revenue to actually establish the food terminal.
Mr Waters: On another point, you said that you have some financial obligations, some debt out there. Should you default on that debt, who picks it up?
Mr Carsley: The province would pick up the guaranteed part, which is I guess down to $1.6 million. The rest of course is not secured by anything. The bank has loaned us the money based on the merits of the project we presented to them.
Mr Waters: I'm going to jump way over to something different. I believe you and I talked about something when you were appointed to the board, sir, and that is the standards for the produce. Is there within the food terminal, especially -- and I'm not worried about provincial produce; I'm worried about this produce that's coming in from outside. I'm worried about what's on it that we're eating, because there are definite rules on what an Ontario farmer can put on his produce or any product that is for human consumption. The rules are different when it comes from outside of the country. They can put pesticides and all kinds of things on that that we're not allowed. How is that dealt with at the food terminal? A lot of these trucks come in and the first time they open their doors is at the food terminal. What happens?
Mr Jeff Wilson: I think it's fair to respond that the food terminal board has no direct involvement in that. Residue analysis is in the federal jurisdiction. They have statistical models, meaning that they have models to determine that they're getting representative samples in order to determine where the levels are. But the actual numbers this year will approach 250,000 nationally.
In essence, what we want to ensure as a board is that there is equality, not necessarily through the board, but board members, commodity organizations such as those we have pushed -- that we have a comparable residue analysis system that's testing domestic and imported equally so that everyone is treated the same, once again in the best interests of the consumer.
Mr Waters: I see Mr Villeneuve --
The Chair: Yes, he just has a brief supplementary, and then I think we'll have to --
Mr Villeneuve: Litigation: Food banks get food that is surplus after the day or after the week or whatever. Should there be litigation, where someone dies and it goes back to something that was obtained, maybe free of cost, at the food terminal, who is liable?
Mr Carsley: That's an interesting question. I think the food banks now actually do have some liability insurance. All our tenants would have product liability insurance of some type. It wouldn't come back on us because we're not giving them the food. We don't take title to anything. The food the food bank gets is the food that is, shall we say, slightly off spec, if you want. That comes from our tenants, not the board.
Mr Jeff Wilson: Very quickly, the good Samaritan legislation, which I gather has not been resolved, was one attempt to address this very issue. My understanding is there is still dialogue going on among all the parties involved.
The Chair: We'd like to thank you for coming before the committee today. Obviously, the review is just beginning. The committee still has a number of questions, and I think it is the wish of the committee to tour the facility, which will be in the new year, since the House is hopefully only sitting for another two weeks.
We would like to thank you for appearing before us. We would like the updated annual report. This was the one that was circulated to the committee and it's 1992, but I notice that you held up a more recent report. If you could send us sufficient copies, those will be distributed to the committee members. The committee clerk will be in contact with you about the schedule for continuing the review in the new year and the visit of the committee to the facility.
Is that the wish of the committee? I understood that it was, and I just want to confirm that. Agreed.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Chair: The only other business before the committee this morning is to move and approve the subcommittee report dated Wednesday, November 24.
Mr McLean: I'll move that.
The Chair: Moved by Mr McLean. Any discussion on the subcommittee report? All in favour? The subcommittee report is carried.
The committee stands adjourned, and thank you for your attendance today.
The committee adjourned at 1201.