CONTENTS
Wednesday 22 April 1992
Election of Chair
Election of Vice-Chair
Business subcommittee
Appointments review
Nick Doelman
Fernand Hamelin
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président: Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East/-Est PC)
Bradley, James J. (St Catharines L)
Carter, Jenny (Peterborough ND)
Cleary, John C. (Cornwall L)
Ferguson, Will, (Kitchener ND)
Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East/-Est ND)
Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East/-Est L)
Marchese, Rosario (Fort York ND)
Stockwell, Chris (Etobicoke West/-Ouest PC)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
Wiseman, Jim (Durham West/-Ouest ND)
Clerk / Greffier: Arnott, Douglas
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1014 in room 228.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
Clerk of the Committee (Mr Douglas Arnott): Honourable members, it is my duty to call upon you to elect a Chair of the committee. Are there any nominations, please?
Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): I move that Mr Runciman be Chairman.
Clerk of the Committee: Are there any further nominations? There being no further nominations, I declare Mr Runciman elected Chair of the committee.
Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): That's one of the easiest elections I'll ever go through. Thank you very much for that show of support.
ELECTION OF VICE-CHAIR
The Chair: We will now ask for nominations for the election of a Vice-Chair for the committee.
Mr Jim Wiseman (Durham West): Can I nominate Al McLean?
The Chair: If Mr McLean is willing to accept the nomination, you certainly can.
Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I would.
The Chair: Any further nominations? Hearing none, we'll declare Mr McLean the Vice-Chair of the committee. Congratulations, Al.
BUSINESS SUBCOMMITTEE
The Chair: The appointment of a subcommittee on committee business: There's a motion attached, if you haven't had a chance to look at that. I'll automatically be a member and Mr McLean will be a member of the subcommittee, Mr Grandmaître, I believe --
Mr Grandmaître: Yes.
Mr Wiseman: He's overwhelmingly endorsed by his colleagues.
The Chair: -- and Mr Wiseman for the NDP. Can we have a motion to that effect? Moved by Mr Waters. Any discussion? All in favour? Carried.
APPOINTMENTS REVIEW
Resuming consideration of intended appointments
NICK DOELMAN
The Chair: We can move on to our regular scheduled business now, which is a half-hour review of Mr Nick Doelman, who is an intended appointee as a member of the Farm Tax Rebate Appeal Board. Mr Doelman, would you like to take a seat, please. Welcome to the committee, sir.
Mr Nick Doelman: Thank you.
The Chair: This is a half-hour review, 10 minutes allocated to each party. Your review was a selection of the official opposition, so Mr Grandmaître will begin the questioning.
Mr Grandmaître: I was looking at your CV last night and it's very impressive, so you must know something about the tax rebate program and the appeal board.
Mr Doelman: I'm familiar with it as a recipient of farm tax rebate, to begin with. I'm very much in support of the program to rebate taxes that are on farms other than the home. I've been familiar with the appeal procedure in its broadest sense. I'm not familiar with the details of what would change a ruling and so on. Other than that, I really probably can't add too much to it other than as a recipient.
Mr Grandmaître: But you are supportive of the program.
Mr Doelman: I am very supportive of the program and of the appeal procedure.
Mr Grandmaître: There are rumours -- and this is the place to spread rumours; Queen's Park is a great place to start rumours -- that the minister or the ministry is interested in maybe diluting the program. How would you view that approach?
Mr Doelman: I would have some concern if it was reduced or removed unless something else could be brought in in its place that would do the same kind of job the rebate program is doing right now. I've heard the rumour and have some concern and have talked to our local MPP regarding it.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you think 75% of your tax bill is reasonable compensation?
Mr Doelman: I guess we're all greedy and would like to have more or hate to lose what we've got. I'd hate to make a comment unless I had an opportunity to really sit down and see how it would affect me or my neighbours as to whether I think it's really reasonable or not. Without it, I know it would hurt, and it would hurt many of my neighbours also, particularly those who are on a breaking edge.
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Mr Grandmaître: Being active in your own farming community, what are your friends saying: that it's adequate or not adequate?
Mr Doelman: They definitely do not want it to erode any more or to erode at all. There probably is a certain degree of thinking that it should be higher than it is, but definitely not to erode it.
Mr Grandmaître: In 1986 -- I was Minister of Municipal Affairs at the time -- I had the distinction of excluding the farmer's residence from the program. Do you think this was a right move or the wrong move?
Mr Doelman: At the time I wasn't very happy with it, but it probably was fair and it probably made it more justifiable to remove the residence. I think it is fair that I'm treated equally in terms of my residence as far as being taxed as the person down the road or in the nearby town. I think the unfair part would come if my food-producing assets are taxed.
Mr Grandmaître: Those are all my questions for now.
The Chair: Mr McLean is absent at the moment. I'll look to the government party, Mr Wiseman, initially.
Mr Wiseman: For those of us who are not familiar with the way taxes are levied in the rural areas, perhaps you could give us some indication. For example, in the urban areas there's a mill rate placed on the value of the house. There are two structures: market value assessment and then another appraised rate that's been around for a long time, and the mill rate is determined on the basis of that. How does it work in the farming community?
Mr Doelman: Very much in a similar way, but in addition to the residence the farm buildings are appraised and the tillable land is appraised and a common mill rate is then struck. The entire parcel then has a value and a mill rate applies.
Mr Wiseman: I'm just trying to get some idea of the taxes a farmer would pay in terms of property taxes. Have you any idea what the average tax might be on a family on a farm?
Mr Doelman: If I gave my own, what I pay taxes on and the amount of rebate I receive, I'd probably be a little higher than the average, but our rebate would total about $4,000. Our total taxes payable would be somewhere between $7,000 and $8,000.
Mr Wiseman: That's before rebate, or after?
Mr Doelman: The $8,000 is before the rebate, and then we receive back almost $4,000 in rebate.
Mr Wiseman: So you'd be looking at a $4,000 tax for property assessment.
Mr Doelman: Yes.
Mr Wiseman: If we can just go down this road a little further, in the community where you're from there isn't a regional government.
Mr Doelman: There is not, no.
Mr Wiseman: So then basically you're looking at education tax and municipal tax.
Mr Doelman: That's right.
Mr Wiseman: What percentage of your property tax is education tax?
Mr Doelman: I believe it's just slightly over 50%.
Mr Wiseman: What you get for that is busing and for your children to go to school.
Mr Doelman: Yes, busing and the school and associated costs.
Mr Wiseman: And for the municipal tax?
Mr Doelman: What do we get for that? Fire, garbage, roads.
Mr Wiseman: You do the garbage pickup.
Mr Doelman: Yes, we do.
Mr Wiseman: That's interesting. I have residents in my riding who live in rural areas and do not get garbage pickup, yet they pay the municipal taxes.
Mr Doelman: The cost of the garbage is directly related to the amount of tax that we pay. It was a township choice to have garbage pickup, and the cost was added to our taxes.
Mr Wiseman: In my community a 3,500-square-foot house pays about $4,300 in taxes. Would you say that would be about equivalent?
Mr Doelman: A rural, non-farm house of 1,500 square feet in our township would pay less than $1,000 in tax.
Mr Wiseman: Why would that be?
Mr Doelman: Because of the way it's assessed.
Mr Grandmaître: That's why we need market value assessment.
Mr Daniel Waters (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): Do they have sewers and water?
Mr Wiseman: They don't have sewers or water. This is really quite interesting. I have to think about that.
Mr Doelman: I own a house separate from my farm which I purchased so that somebody else couldn't purchase it and interfere with my livestock operation. The tax cost on it is under $1,000. It's a house that's about 15 years old.
Mr Wiseman: That's basically because of the way the assessment has been developed over the years.
Mr Doelman: Yes.
Mr Wiseman: And yet your farm is assessed at even more.
Mr Doelman: That's right.
Mr Wiseman: Assuming you make a profit in farming, which is a pretty big assumption these days, you would also have to pay taxes on that. Would you not then be able to declare and deduct your barns and that process and have it separate from your municipal taxes?
Mr Doelman: The cost of the municipal taxes is a farm expense, which is deducted from our farm income. The rebate is farm income and is added to our income.
Mr Wiseman: That seems rather circular.
Mr Doelman: We just treat it as an expense and as income. I have no problem with the way that works, really.
Mr Wiseman: Is there any way to perhaps simplify the whole procedure and make it a little more equitable?
Mr Doelman: I'm sure there is, but making something equitable is very difficult. What's fair for me might not be perceived as fair for somebody else. I don't have any answers as to how to make it more fair and equitable.
Mr Wiseman: It would be very easy to calculate the true cost of education, and then from the municipal the true cost of delivery of services to each unit.
Mr Doelman: Yes. Actually the education portion of our tax is shown separately on our tax bill.
Mr Wiseman: I don't have any more questions. Does anybody else have questions?
Mr Will Ferguson (Kitchener): Could you explain to the committee why you wish to be appointed?
Mr Doelman: When the opportunity came up and I was asked if I was interested, I felt I could be a fair and equitable member, but I also thought I could grow from the experience and that it would be a challenge for me.
Mr Ferguson: Have you ever been a member of a political party?
Mr Doelman: I was a member of a political party at one time.
Mr Ferguson: Which party would that have been?
Mr Doelman: The Progressive Conservative Party.
Mr Ferguson: I guess that means Mr McLean's supporting him.
The Chair: Sounded like the past tense to me.
Mr Ferguson: Mr Runciman, I tell you, you're going to take them wherever you can get them at this point.
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): Those past attachments are still good.
I have just two questions. Some people would worry about how fair a board member would be when someone is doing an appeal. What gives us the sense that you would treat fairly all people coming for an appeal?
Mr Doelman: I guess I would want to treat everybody the way I'd want to be treated if I were coming in for the appeal. I am the kind of person who would want to go in there totally neutral and hear their case and make my decision on what the intention was. I guess what it really goes back to is that I would want to treat people the way I'd want to be treated if I were in their shoes.
Mr Marchese: Just to touch on some questions raised by others, some feel that education should not be financed through property taxes on farm land. Connected to this is the question of the small farmer versus the big farmer or the rich farmer who obviously would have a great deal of land and would be better off financially. There is a discrepancy in terms of the big and the small and how you deal with that whole issue. What is your view of whether or not education should be financed through property taxes on farm land as opposed to the house?
Mr Doelman: I'm not sure I would be in favour of totally removing education taxes from farm property, but I think there has to be some balance between the residents who are receiving the benefit and those who are paying the cost of that benefit. Personally I would gain from removing it completely from farm property. But I'm not sure it's really reality to consider that or even to ask for that, because somewhere else it has to be picked up. As a taxpayer, it's going to cost me somewhere. But I have concerns about it.
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Mr Marchese: Presumably the small farmer who doesn't make very much money and has to be taxed on that farm land -- the rebate is only 75% -- would feel there is some inadequacy here. If they're not making money, in fact losing money, and they're also taxed on the little land they have, which bears very little fruit, it's not fair. Should there be a system in place that compensates those who are losing money or not making any?
Mr Doelman: I guess right now the large farmer is probably losing as much money as the small farmer, maybe even more. I see where you're coming from. I think there is some possibility, but I can't see the mechanics right offhand how you would set that up without creating a great deal of bureaucracy and more paperwork for the farmers to have to apply for the rebates and so on. I had not thought before of what you just asked, but it's an interesting concept.
The Chair: Mr McLean.
Mr McLean: I guess Ben was all done before I got here.
Mr Grandmaître: Yes.
Mr McLean: The Farm Tax Rebate Appeal Board only hears appeals against the assessment farmers have been assessed. I am curious about the board. Maybe you know more about it than I do, or maybe you don't. I don't know. How many appeals do they hear in a year? How many did they hear last year? Do you know?
Mr Doelman: I don't know. I understand there are usually something around 15 days a year of appeal time.
Mr McLean: Does your appeal board have any input into how the farm tax rebate works? Do you know?
Mr Doelman: I do not know.
Mr McLean: I don't know either. I'm curious to find out who's going to have the input into the farm tax rebate, because when I've looked at it over the years and I've listened to some of the questions that have been asked, I've always had a problem with education taxes on farm land. I see nothing wrong with taxing the farm home the same as anybody else's home. Do you have a view on how the farm tax rebate should work with regard to a viable farm?
Mr Doelman: As I commented a bit earlier, I would gain from not having it on the farm property and the farm buildings, but I don't think that's a reasonable thing to expect, for the immediate future anyway. I definitely think it should be on the farm home.
Mr McLean: Right. The farmers pay. We pay on our farm probably about the same tax as you, around $8,000. That's a big output for my son, who's running the farm, to have to put that amount of money out. Then you have to fill out an application to get part of it back. Would there be a way around it, that you could pay for the farm home and buildings? Would you look at that aspect as a priority?
Mr Doelman: As I understand it, I'm not sure if this committee has the opportunity to put input into it. But aside from that, I think it would be something very interesting to pursue.
Mr McLean: I don't have any further questions.
The Chair: That concludes the questioning, and we wish you well. Thank you for your appearance here today.
Mr Grandmaître: Could I add something just to follow up on Allan's type of question? I think the only way we could improve the system is by having market value right across this province. I think we could help small farmers and bigger farmers, industrial land, commercial land. I'm talking about vacant land. Back in 1973 Darcy McKeough wanted to have market value right across the province, and it never worked out that way. I think the Ontario Federation of Agriculture should be pushing for market value in the farming districts at least.
The Chair: Mr Grandmaître has started a precedent I'm not going to continue beyond this meeting, but because of the spirit of generosity in being re-elected to this office I will allow Mr Wiseman one last question too. Mr Doelman, if you don't mind, one last question from Mr Wiseman.
Mr Wiseman: The Fair Tax Commission is currently reviewing property assessment. Would you say that it would be a worthwhile exercise for the Fair Tax Commission to look into the whole process of taxing farms and how that would be best done?
Mr Doelman: Yes, I think it definitely should look into it.
Mr Wiseman: My last comment on market value assessment: It's nice when the market goes up, but what happens to the homes that get assessed at a high market value and the market goes down?
Mr Grandmaître: It all depends on the mill rate.
The Chair: Once again, thank you, Mr Doelman.
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FERNAND HAMELIN
The Chair: Our next witness is Fernand Hamelin, who is an intended appointee as a member of the District Health Council of Eastern Ontario. Thank you for appearing here today, Mr Hamelin. You as well were selected for review by the official opposition, so I'm going to again look to Mr Grandmaître to begin the questioning.
Mr Grandmaître: I guess I'm the only one who called for this meeting. Monsieur Hamelin, bienvenue à Queen's Park.
Some months ago we had a guest who appeared before us, the chairperson of the eastern Ontario district health council, and we were told very bluntly that district health councils are not always respected by the ministry and maybe the minister, meaning that you can work months and months on a project but the ministry will put aside your project very quickly if it doesn't fit or if it's not part of the ministry's or the minister's plans. What are your thoughts on those comments by your chair?
Mr Hamelin: It's very difficult for me to answer that because I haven't been part of the decision-making process that the district health council went through in the last few years. I'm a new appointee, and therefore I haven't worked at the council level. From my research and from looking into some of the recommendations and some of the actions taken by the ministry or the government in the last four or five years, I'm aware of recommendations that went through, but unfortunately I'm not aware of what didn't go through.
As an example of what went through, I know for the last few years we have had an air ambulance service between Cornwall and Ottawa. I understand that to be a recommendation of the district health council some years ago, but it's very difficult to comment on the resolution or recommendation that didn't follow through.
M. Grandmaître : Si je me fie à votre expérience à Cornwall, Monsieur Hamelin, que penseriez-vous être la chose la plus nécessaire présentement dans le domaine de la santé pour la communauté de Cornwall ? Qu'est-ce qui manque à Cornwall ? Je sais qu'il y a un manque d'emplois, mais dans le domaine de la santé, qu'est-ce qui ferait de Cornwall pas une région unique, peut-être, mais commune aux autres ?
M. Hamelin : À Cornwall, comme dans tous les plus petits centres ou les centres éloignés, il y a un manque prioritaire de médecins. Je sais que les médecins de la région partent assez souvent faire des campagnes de recrutement dans les universités pour attirer de nouveaux médecins. Je sais qu'un grand manque c'est de médecins dans les domaines specialisés et dans la médecine généraliste. Des médecins francophones manquent aussi. Les médecins francophones sont maintenant d'un âge à penser à la retraite, et les nouveaux médecins se font rares. Alors, pour la population, le service de médecins est une chose très importante.
M. Grandmaître : Je comprends que c'est tout à fait nouveau pour vous d'appartenir à un tel comité ; mais par contre, vous qui connaissez très bien votre communauté, est-ce que vous avez en vue un «pet project», comme on dit ?
M. Hamelin : Personnellement, non. En discutant avec les présents membres du Conseil et en lisant les journaux et l'information que l'on peut avoir au sujet des soins de santé, on voit qu'il y a un manque grandissant d'argent pour les hôpitaux de la région. On pourrait être obligé, dans les années à venir, de regarder comment améliorer le service ou comment avoir le même service mais d'une manière différente : comment, avec les fonds qu'on va recevoir, on va être capable d'offrir le même ou un meilleur service. Je sais que c'est une des priorités qui semblent se développer avec le Conseil régional de santé.
Mr McLean: Are you familiar with the workings of the district health council in eastern Ontario?
Mr Hamelin: I'm familiar with some of the recommendations, the action as a result of those recommendations the ministry took in the region and some of the result of that, yes.
Mr McLean: Are you aware of the ministry taking some action not recommended by the district health council?
Mr Hamelin: I'm not familiar with that, as I mentioned earlier.
Mr McLean: There seems to be some concern in some of the district health councils across the province with regard to decisions being made without input from the district health council. Are you aware of some of that?
Mr Hamelin: No, I'm not.
Mr McLean: Do you believe it probably exists?
Mr Hamelin: From my experience on the board, since I've been on the board of St Lawrence College for the last six years, the last year as vice-chairman, we have discussions with the ministry and we don't always agree and we don't always have what we ask for. Being a member of another type of board, I'm familiar with the proceeding and some of the results of the discussions. So I would probably find it natural, to a certain point, that we don't always have what we ask for.
Mr McLean: Maybe not, but the district health councils were set up to make recommendations to the ministry with regard to functions taking place within the jurisdiction of that district health council. We have observed some of the problems that have taken place in eastern Ontario and other parts of the province. I'm wondering what point of view you're going to bring to that board with regard to some of the changes that may take place there in order to make that board run more efficiently and have more productivity into any changes the ministry may make. Would that be the aim of your accepting this position?
Mr Hamelin: Sitting on an advisory committee and working on different projects of the council, it's like any other board. If you work on something you believe in, that you feel is important for the community, then you do everything in your power to convince the proper authority of the good of your recommendations. In my experience in the past, that's what I've done. If I recall the work that I and members of other committees did regarding a francophone college campus in Cornwall, we worked extremely hard at convincing the proper authority of the good of such a campus in Cornwall.
Mr McLean: I wish you well in your endeavours. I think you're a good candidate and I hope your input will be influential in making that commission and board run better.
Mr Robert Frankford (Scarborough East): The district you cover is quite large, isn't it? It's 2,000 square miles, it says.
Mr Hamelin: Yes. The district covers five counties including the city of Cornwall. So it's a very large area of eastern Ontario.
Mr Frankford: I understand you feel the priority is the lack of medical services.
Mr Hamelin: I was asked what one of the priorities is, and one of them that always comes up in the news is the lack of new doctors in the area. That's one of the things I know everybody's working very hard on.
Mr Frankford: Is it your understanding that this is something the district health council is in a position to do something about?
Mr Hamelin: That's one of the many concerns. As a group representing the area, I'm sure the district health council could have some input into it. I also mentioned earlier that hospital funding, hospital operation and new programs are another area which the district health council feels is very important to look at.
Mr Frankford: How many hospitals would there be in the total district?
Mr Hamelin: There are five hospitals.
Mr Frankford: How many in Cornwall?
Mr Hamelin: We have two hospitals in Cornwall, one in Hawkesbury, one in Alexandria and one in Winchester.
Mr Frankford: Are you in a position to know about the viability of the smaller hospitals?
Mr Hamelin: It would be very difficult for me to comment on that. It would be too new at this time.
Mr Frankford: There has been established a francophone community health centre.
Mr Hamelin: Yes. Actually, the official opening of the health centre will be some time in May, but it's actually been in operation now since some time in the middle of the winter. There are now a doctor and a nurse working there and they are offering some services.
Mr Frankford: This could be the only health centre in the region.
Mr Hamelin: At this time, I understand this centre serves Cornwall and the Alexandria area. The council was approached by the people from Russell county and there is a committee working hard now trying to look at the viability of opening up another centre in that area.
Mr Frankford: Another budgeted community health centre.
Mr Hamelin: Yes, for francophones.
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Mr Frankford: Do you have any connection with that or are you a user of it?
Mr Hamelin: Personally, no. I have relatives who have been using it, especially because my in-laws wanted to have a francophone doctor and it was very difficult to. They went to the centre and were served there.
Mr Frankford: Do you have any model in mind for what would address the need for, let's say, more centres and more physicians or perhaps more efficient use of physicians?
Mr Hamelin: Do I have a magic solution? No, I don't. I know everybody's been working hard at it. Like I mentioned earlier, every year there's a recruitment campaign involving people from the economic development of the area to the representatives of the medical field, going out and recruiting.
Mr Frankford: Finally, is there much cross-border shopping for health, either to or from Quebec and New York state?
Mr Hamelin: Not to my knowledge. That's a new twist, but not to my knowledge of that. I know people sometimes have to go to western Quebec or Montreal, especially in a specialized field. I've heard people for the very specialized fields have to go there or the other way: they go to Kingston or Ottawa. But I don't know. Going down on the American side, I haven't heard of anything.
Mr Frankford: Conversely, you're not aware that there's any attraction from the other jurisdictions to Cornwall?
Mr Hamelin: No. Through discussion, I haven't heard of that.
Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): Are you familiar with the Ministry of Health's new suggestions on long-term care? I see your health council has in fact organized consultations on that at the local level. Do you know anything about what has come out of that?
Mr Hamelin: Offhand, no. I wouldn't be able to comment regarding the endeavour of the district health council in that area.
Ms Carter: The government has put forward proposals which have been very widely discussed. The general thrust is that we're going to try to make it more possible for people to remain in the community rather than go into institutions, and we're trying to hold hospital beds steady.
There's also a plan to have a single-access organization so that people who need whatever service, whether it's an older person who needs to go into a home or whatever, can go and get the service in one place where all the information will be available. I'm just wondering how that's shaping up in your area and what opinions you might have on it.
Mr Hamelin: I know that with the hospital in Hawkesbury the administration there worked on a project, the hospital-in-the-home program, it's called. Through this project they've relocated 15 acute-care beds where they deal with people at home instead of having to bring them to the hospital. I know there is an effort made to make people more comfortable so they could stay at home longer. So I'm aware of the project the district health has been working with at the hospital in Hawkesbury, but that would be very minimal.
Ms Carter: Do you see that as a way to emphasize wellness, if you like, and to emphasize supporting people in the community?
Mr Hamelin: I think so. Many of the seniors in our area want to stay at home the longest time they can. They want to be able to have services in their mother tongue. Therefore it is sometimes sad whenever they have to leave. I see that as being a benefit for --
Ms Carter: Certainly providing services in a person's own language and so on is part of what the proposals include.
Mr Hamelin: Yes.
Ms Carter: I'm just wondering whether in a scattered-type area there might be problems with a single- access organization. Will you have any idea how this might be organized in a rural community?
Mr Hamelin: If I use the Hawkesbury example, the people are all the responsibility of the Hawkesbury hospital. I am only assuming. That would be a restrained kind of area. I would see the same thing whenever we talk about the health centre for Cornwall and Alexandria. Although the population in the five counties is approximately 46% francophone, you're talking about a very restricted area, because the area is quite large to cover.
The Chair: Mr Hamelin, that concludes the questioning. Once again, thank you for appearing today and coming up to Toronto for this. We very much appreciate it and wish you well.
Mr Hamelin: Thank you very much.
The Chair: We can now deal, as the agenda indicates, with a motion as to whether or not the committee concurs with the appointments we've reviewed today, or at the request of any member, we can delay. What's the feeling?
Mr Wiseman: I'll move it.
The Chair: Mr Wiseman is moving both Mr Doelman and Mr Hamelin, that the committee concur in the appointments of these two gentlemen. Any discussion on the motion?
Mr McLean: I'd like to move them separately, Mr Chairman.
The Chair: You'd like to move them individually? All right, we'll look to Mr Doelman initially.
Mr Wiseman moves the concurrence of the committee in the appointment of Mr Doelman. All in favour? Opposed? Carried.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: Mr Wiseman moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Mr Hamelin. All in favour? Opposed? Carried.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: That concludes the agenda for the day. I'd like to ask the members of the subcommittee just to stay around for a minute or two, but the regular meeting is adjourned. Thanks very much.
The committee adjourned at 1057.