OFFICE FOR SENIOR CITIZENS' AFFAIRS
OFFICE FOR SENIOR CITIZENS' AFFAIRS
MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES
CONTENTS
Wednesday 20 February 1991
Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs
Afternoon sitting
Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs
Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Adjournment
STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES
Chair: Jackson, Cameron (Burlington South PC)
Acting Chair: Daigeler, Hans (Nepean L)
Vice-Chair: Marland, Margaret (Mississauga South PC)
Carr, Gary (Oakville South PC)
Hansen, Ron (Lincoln NDP)
Haslam, Karen (Perth NDP)
Lessard, Wayne (Windsor-Walkerville NDP)
McGuinty, Dalton (Ottawa South L)
McLeod, Lyn (Fort William L)
Perruzza, Anthony (Downsview NDP)
Ward, Margery (Don Mills NDP)
Wilson, Gary (Kingston and The Islands NDP)
Substitutions:
Coppen, Shirley (Niagara South NDP) for Mr Perruzza
Curling, Alvin (Scarborough North L) for Ms McLeod
Mahoney, Steven W. (Mississauga West L) for Mr McGuinty
Mathyssen, Irene (Middlesex NDP) for Ms M. Ward
McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East PC) for Mr Carr
Miclash, Frank (Kenora L) for Mr McGuinty
Ward, Brad (Brantford NDP) for Ms M. Ward
Also taking part: Brown, Michael A. (Algoma-Manitoulin L)
Clerk: Carrozza, Franco
Staff: Campbell, Elaine, Research Officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1006 in room 228.
OFFICE FOR SENIOR CITIZENS' AFFAIRS
The Vice-Chair: Good morning, everyone. We are very tight for time today as we have the Ministry of Mines coming in at 3 o'clock this afternoon. We have three hours and seven minutes remaining for the estimates of the minister for seniors, and the first spokesperson this morning is Mr Jackson for the PC Party.
Mr Jackson: Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, yesterday in my opening comments I made reference to the growing trend towards restricting access for seniors to certain medically necessary treatments, which has evolved in this province to a lesser degree than it has in other provinces. Do you have, or have you asked for, an inventory of those treatments and procedures to which seniors do not have equitable access in this province?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Have I asked for those particular questions formally?
Mr Jackson: Yes.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I have not asked for them formally, but I do know the answer.
Mr Jackson: Should I wait for you, or should you wait for me?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will wait for you.
Mr Jackson: Okay. If you have an answer --
Hon Ms Ziemba: I said I know the answer.
Mr Jackson: You know the answer, but you have not asked for it. Okay. It strikes me that you are responsible in this province for matters of equity, and discrimination matters are of concern to you. I wonder when you will be commissioning an informal inquiry through your ministry, or one of your four ministries, as to those services which are age sensitive and represent a barrier to seniors.
Hon Ms Ziemba: You want me to give you a date.
Mr Jackson: I did not say anything about a date.
Hon Ms Ziemba: But you said when?
Mr Jackson: No. I said, because of the concerns you must have wearing these four hats, are you interested in calling for a list, and if you are, when would you be pursuing these kinds of questions because of your responsibility for seniors and your interest in matters of equity and discrimination?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am constantly seeking answers and I am constantly addressing the needs of seniors.
Mr Mahoney: In the fullness of time.
Mr Jackson: Well, if you are constantly --
Hon Ms Ziemba: I just asked him when and he said he did not want to know when, so I just sort of -- you first said you wanted when and then you said you did not want when.
Mr Jackson: I am just trying to understand from you your level of commitment. "Constantly" this and "constantly" that -- I can appreciate all ministers would respond in that fashion. I am simply asking if you had a list. You said you do not. I simply wanted to know if you are interested in getting a list so you can understand the problem. You are constantly in a state of interest and you are constantly in a state of support. I am just asking you when you are going to be in a consistent position to understand the total breadth of the problem.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I guess because of my previous life, I do have some of the information; I might not have all the updated information. But you must understand that we inherited a situation that had been there in a process, and I cannot apologize for the previous government's initiatives or lack of initiatives.
Mr Jackson: Yesterday in response to a question you indicated that amendments to the Human Rights Code were a complex, multifaceted sort of issue and it was not as simple as just amending it. The deputy indicated that persons in this province over the age of 65 are not covered by that. I would imagine that as minister you are very concerned, from your many hats, to be against this exclusion and to be interested in its implications for access to services. It should be a right for a senior in this province to have access to a retina transplant and not be told, "Because of your age, it's not economically equitable for society to provide you with those medical treatments." If they were covered under the bill of rights, a citizen in this province who is a senior citizen would have a right to be able to request that service. Again, I would ask you: To what extent are you examining the problem? Is this part of what you are looking at in terms of future amendments to the Human Rights Code?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I must clarify the position, Mr Jackson. Maybe it is because somebody else had asked the question that you do not quite understand. The Human Rights Code protects every citizen of Ontario for levels of health. Where seniors are not protected is under the employment act, but they are protected in the Human Rights Code when it comes to health issues and when it comes to other issues. We were yesterday discussing the issue of employment, and that is where the act stops at the age of 65.
Mr Jackson: Thank you for correcting the deputy, because I was relying on his reference in Hansard.
Hon Ms Ziemba: No, I think the answer and the question were related to employment -- though I should perhaps let the deputy protect himself.
Mr Norberg: Thank you, minister, I would be glad to do that. The Human Rights Code limits its protections in employment to people aged 18 to 65. That is the specific reference I was making yesterday in answer to the question related to mandatory retirement.
Mr Jackson: Minister, if you are the minister responsible to strike down discrimination, how soon will you be eliminating this access to medical treatments which represent a barrier for seniors based on their age?
Hon Ms Ziemba: If I understand your question, I think I would have to say that I will refer that and ask my colleague in the Ministry of Health to make sure that discrimination is not happening in access to health services.
Mr Jackson: What you are saying is that you are just going to talk to the minister about this. Yesterday we determined that geriatric research is not being undertaken by your ministry and you had no immediate plans on the horizon to develop that. Can you share with this committee what geriatric programs and initiatives the Minister of Health has undertaken?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I would like to clarify another point. Yesterday's conversation in relation to geriatric health was in relation to what the former government did. I did not say what I was going to do.
Mr Jackson: I did ask you the question, and you gave that response. We clearly separated the former government's commitment to geriatric research. I asked your deputy and your assistant deputy minister of seniors if there was anything being planned and they said no. So I am moving from specific current policy instructions to the minister's policy approach and your level of commitment. If you have not discussed geriatric research since your appointment in October, that is fine. But if you have discussed it, have you discussed it with the Minister of Health and is she doing anything? If she is not doing anything, when are you going to be inquiring about her doing something? That is the question. This is all a new line of questioning. In terms of restating what you put on the record yesterday, I do not think that is helpful, unless you enjoy repeating yourself.
Hon Ms Ziemba: There is an ongoing dialogue with the Ministry of Health, and we are in the process of looking at new initiatives. As we have not finished formulating our new initiatives program, I am not at liberty to discuss this with you at this time.
Mr Jackson: Okay. You would be familiar with the Ontario seniors property tax grant and the number of times it has been increased in the last six years. Do you consider that adequate, at present?
Hon Ms Ziemba: No, but as I said to you just previously, I am not going to speak on behalf of the former government.
Mr Jackson: No, I asked you if you find the current rate, which you are implementing --
Hon Ms Ziemba: And I just said no.
Mr Jackson: You do not consider it adequate.
Hon Ms Ziemba: And that is why we have appointed a Fair Tax Commission by this government to look at all the various aspects of taxation.
Mr Jackson: Its mandate, as you know, is for three-plus years. Are you suggesting that the matters of adequate funding rate should wait for three years, or do you feel that you are in a position to recommend it be increased as you find it inadequate at the moment?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will be looking at the recommendations brought out by the Fair Tax Commission. I am sure they will be bringing recommendations in at a sooner time than three years, and we will be looking at all the recommendations and how I feel in the next little while.
Mr Jackson: But at this point, if they do not report --
Hon Ms Ziemba: I must repeat that the last six years were under a former government, and I will not address how they should have acted or not acted.
Mr Jackson: Oh, they increased it. I think the former government has nothing to be ashamed of. They increased it. You have stressed issues of poverty, issues of affordability, and I just wanted to find out if you, as well as some of your other cabinet colleagues, looked at the issue of affordability and equity and are relying on the commission to report in three years before making any specific public recommendations for its enhancement. If the commission does not report for three years on this issue, that is sufficient, as far as you are concerned at this time.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I did not say it was sufficient. I said I would be looking into the other aspects if they did not come back with a sooner recommendation. Their mandate is for three years, but they will be coming forth with recommendations sooner.
Mr Jackson: Yesterday you talked at length about our native populations in this province, or Canada's native people. You mentioned about treating them a little differently. When I look at the current membership of the Ontario Advisory Council on Senior Citizens, can I ask you when you will be appointing a native member to that council? Perhaps the assistant deputy minister can answer if he has the information.
Mr Adams: The advisory council will have one vacancy occurring this spring. It is my understanding that the minister wishes that to be advertised. Presumably, interested parties will apply and from among them, one person will be picked.
Mr Jackson: That is fine, but what I am asking -- when I look at the advisory committee, it could be enhanced. With your primary objectives in this province to deal with equity, multicultural as well as native representation on this committee would be appropriate. I wonder to what extent this is a priority, and if we can get your assurances that the next one or two nominees from your government will be in the interests of promoting that equity.
Hon Ms Ziemba: All of our appointments are in the interest of promoting equity. Again, the appointments were under the previous government, so the advisory council sitting there right now were appointed by another government. But, yes, we will be looking at all of our appointments to all of our boards, commissions and agencies that will make sure they reflect Ontario, whether it is the gender composition, whether it is multicultural or the native community. We have been very good so far in being able to do that.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Mr Jackson.
Mr B. Ward: I guess I have two areas I would like to focus on: one, briefly, on the line of questioning of Mr Jackson, that is, the Fair Tax Commission and tax issues as far as seniors are concerned. I am pleased to see that you are referring the tax issues of seniors to the Fair Tax Commission. It is my understanding that this commission -- I believe it is on the record through our Treasurer -- will be making ongoing recommendations, that we will not be expecting a 1,000-page report at the end of three years but we should have ongoing recommendations throughout the three-year mandate of this commission. Perhaps the minister can confirm or elaborate on that aspect, that we perhaps do not have to wait three years for recommendations that pertain to seniors and the entire tax situation seniors face, which encompasses a number of areas, not only the area Mr Jackson mentioned.
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The other area I would like to focus on is the use of volunteers. I notice in the statement you made yesterday to this committee that you have approved 20 more volunteer management training workshops, which will be held by the end of March. I firmly believe this is an excellent way to assist seniors.
In Brantford we have a seniors' home jointly owned by the county, the city and the province, the John Noble Home, which we have recently renovated through generous grants and moneys allocated by the three government bodies, approximately $13 million. I would like to think this is a quality residence the seniors can now enjoy in our community, but I believe the home is heading in the direction of having more volunteers, particularly young people, encouraging young people to get involved in assisting and working with seniors.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on what these workshops are intended for, and whether you anticipate that in the future we may have additional workshops made available in communities throughout Ontario. I like to focus on young people, because I think seniors have a lot to give to our community when you look at the wealth of experience they have in life, and I think they could give a lot of good advice to our young people, and we should be encouraging young people to work with seniors in every way possible. I hope these workshops will attract young people in Ontario to come out and volunteer their time to the assistance of seniors, whether they are in retirement homes or community facilities or private facilities.
I was wondering if you could touch on those two areas. I am very interested, first, in this Fair Tax Commission and the excellent questions Mr Jackson brought forth dealing with the issue of taxation when it comes to seniors, and the fact that the tax commission will be ongoing; and the other aspect, which I do not think has been touched on yesterday or today, dealing with the volunteer component of our communities, that we should be encouraging more people to volunteer, to assist and give their time to the seniors. I am very pleased to see that we anticipate having these workshops held by the end of March. I was wondering if you could briefly comment on those two issues.
Hon Ms Ziemba: You are correct. The Fair Tax Commission, although it has a three-year mandate, will be coming back with its recommendations continuously, and we will be able to look at those recommendations on a frequent basis and address our issues and concerns; we do not have to wait for the three years.
On volunteerism, it is extremely important in this province. We have always recognized that fact and encouraged people to participate in the volunteer programs. My staff just wanted to let me know, through me to you, that on 7 November there was a workshop held in Brantford. I believe it was a good turnout, and people participated in that aspect of volunteering. The workshops will continue, and they are an important aspect.
Having worked in a non-profit social service agency, we relied very heavily on our volunteers. We also found that the volunteers needed a little more than just coming in and having a job description and going out; they needed that extra support, to talk to other volunteers to find out how they can best serve the community. Having volunteer workshops to expand on their needs and hear their concerns, and also give pointers on what can be done in the community, certainly helps and encourages volunteers, but it also helps retain volunteers. Volunteers come for a reason and a purpose, and those needs have to be met -- they do have needs -- and having workshops so that people can best understand why they are volunteering and what their needs are and how they can best help in their community serves a dual purpose.
Volunteerism should not be restricted to a certain age group. Depending on the volunteer, I sometimes felt the person who was receiving the volunteer aspect was giving as much as the volunteer was; it is a two-way street. I think most volunteers realize that after a short time, that they have participated and they have given, yes, but they have received back, and it is a very good feeling all around.
In our own agency, we used young people frequently. We had a school that participated in our meal delivery service, but we had another school that participated in our older adult centre by coming on a weekly basis and playing games or sitting and talking. It was not only the seniors who enjoyed having the young people there, but the young people who enjoyed having the opportunity to sit down and talk to a senior or have that activity. It was a two-way street, and the participation was enjoyed by both.
We have to remember that: Volunteerism is a two-way street. It is very important, but we have to give volunteers the motivation. We certainly need to explain and promote the idea of volunteerism, because it is so important in our society and we cannot do without volunteers, whether it is in the seniors' office or in other aspects of our Ontario society. We have to make sure we continue with our projects and our workshops, because it is a very meaningful experience for all of the communities involved.
Ms Haslam: I was looking at page 7 of your estimates, dealing with corporate services. Under "transfer payments" it says "decrease resulting from a revised mandate." Can I have a clarification on that line?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I would like to pass it over to the deputy, and thank you for asking the question on estimates.
Mr Mahoney: It is not a setup.
Ms Haslam: It is not, as a matter of fact, Mr Mahoney.
Hon Ms Ziemba: No, I did not know it was coming. That is why I referred it to my deputy. If it were a setup I would have answered it.
Mr Mahoney: Then why are you all smiling?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Because we are finally going into estimates.
The Vice-Chair: We should be very clear that it is in order for any questions pertaining to the ministry to be asked during estimates here.
Ms Haslam: I just like to ask estimates questions.
Interjections.
Ms Haslam: If you keep this up, I will get an extra minute of my time.
Interjections.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Perruzza, Ms Haslam and the deputy at the moment have the floor.
Mr Norberg: As was mentioned briefly yesterday by Mr Adams, there was a reduction in the mandate of the office during that period related to the removal of the one-stop access funding from the budget of the office for seniors. Also, there was some other project funding removed at the same time, so both of those together total the $2 million reduction you see there.
Ms Haslam: When you said the one-stop access was gone, where did it go? Was it just cut out of your budget? Was it moved elsewhere? It says "resulting from a revised mandate," and that was my question.
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Mr Norberg: Yes, there was a decision by the previous government not to proceed with the one-stop access pilots for which we had funding in the office for seniors, so in fact that funding was removed from the budget and did not go elsewhere at that time.
Ms Haslam: Were any of the functions -- bear with me, because I am new in this building -- from the ministry removed and sent to other ministries?
Mr Norberg: There was some policy work taking place in the office for seniors related to what has essentially become a long-term care exercise, and that policy work was consolidated in a new division which spans the two ministries of Health and Community and Social Services. Although the policy people and the policy work on that initiative is not taking place in the office of seniors at this time, it is in this new division spanning the two ministries. The office of seniors, and certainly our minister, as she mentioned yesterday, are very much involved in the ongoing consultations, particularly with respect to the new government deciding on its approach and policies on long-term care. As the minister mentioned yesterday, that is really the topic of discussion at the present time between her and the other two ministers.
Ms Haslam: Excuse me, I apologize. Would you turn his mike up just a bit for me? Can you do that?
Interjections.
Ms Haslam: Go ahead and answer, just that last bit I was mentioning.
Mr Norberg: I was mentioning that the policy work related to long-term care which had at one time been going on within the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs was moved to become integrated with the new division which is established spanning the ministries of Health and Community and Social Services. That is a division which focuses all of its attention on policy and delivery related to long-term care. Although the policy staff were removed from the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs, there are three ministers who are in fact responsible for spearheading that initiative, the ministers of Health, Community and Social Services, and of course our minister responsible for seniors and disability issues. Our minister is presently involved in discussions with the other two ministers aimed at deciding upon this government's position on long-term care and directions in relation to the policy document which, as you know, was released by the former government, titled Strategies for Change. That is the predominant activity at present in long-term care.
Ms Haslam: I must tell you that I had feedback in my own community on Strategies for Change. During the campaign they asked all of those running for office to come in and discuss that. There was a lot of concern about the input on Strategies for Change, and I would like to bring that to your attention. I was called into Spruce Lodge, which is a seniors nursing home and a seniors centre and a major area in my area about seniors. They were quite concerned about input on this particular document.
Mr Mahoney: Minister, the area I would like to delve into a little further has been raised by Mr Jackson yesterday in some areas, but I would like to go at it perhaps in another light. You made the appointment of Mr Lightman as a commissioner, and I certainly applaud that move. My understanding is that his mandate is to look into the results of the coroner's jury report and to bring a report to you on issues in unregulated residential facilities in the province
I have no difficulty with such a commission, and for long-term planning in these facilities I think it could be helpful. Part of my concern, however, is that the coroner's jury made a number of specific recommendations, and I am somewhat concerned that this is another study project or another way of providing some sort of armour for the government to justify inaction in certain areas or perhaps not moving in certain areas recommended by the coroner's jury; that you simply appoint a commissioner -- great fanfare, etc -- and then wait for the results of that commission. Once again, I want it to be clear that for Mr Lightman to look into this and make a report is helpful, I think, for everyone concerned, particularly for people who have loved ones in these facilities, to put their minds at ease, and long-term is good.
But there were specific recommendations. First of all, the jury recommended that the government increase the stock of housing for adults needing care. The Minister of Housing, the Honourable Dave Cooke, has recently been quoted -- accurately, I assume -- that the 20,000 non-profit units committed and promised in the agenda for power cannot be met this year.
Mr G. Wilson: Agenda for People.
Mr Mahoney: I thought it was an agenda for power.
Ms Haslam: You would.
Mr Mahoney: I think it was an agenda for power, but I will call it the Agenda for People just so it is not too political. There were 20,000 non-profit units committed in that, and Mr Cooke has stated that it cannot be met this year. How does that respond in any way to the coroner's jury report? Do you see the recommendation on housing for adults needing care being part of that 20,000, or do you and perhaps the Minister of Community and Social Services have another plan to increase the number of housing units for adults needing care?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I would like to clarify something; perhaps it was just your choice of words. I do thank you for applauding our government for appointing Mr Lightman to the commission. He is not appointed to look into the coroner's report. It is out of a recommendation from the coroner's report that we actually appointed the commission. There were 85 recommendations; one of the 85 recommendations was that the Premier appoint immediately a commissioner to look into unregulated homes, whether they were boarding and lodging homes or rest and retirement homes. We have followed that recommendation of the coroner's request; in fact, we followed that recommendation within 24 hours of the coroner's request being made public.
I feel we did respond to the coroner's recommendations on that particular point and we are looking at the other recommendations as well immediately. I must admit that I am extremely pleased that our Premier and our government responded as quickly as it did and did not stall and did not, as you say, put an armour on to protect it.
I cannot respond to the Minister of Housing's statement you asked me about. I would think that when he is here before estimates you would like to ask him that particular question. I do not think it behooves me to respond on his behalf, nor do I know the quote you have alluded to, so I do not think I want to respond to that.
I would like to mention that the Minister of Housing, along with the ministers of Community and Social Services, Health and ourselves, has come out with a pilot project -- it is called the Rupert Hotel Coalition -- which does address what the coroner's inquest had also recommended. It is a very exciting proposal, and this has been announced. Our ministry is involved in providing a small pilot project of one advocate to test our advocacy commission, and we are looking forward to working along these lines with this particular coalition and this particular project.
Mr Mahoney: I would not ask you to speak on behalf of the Minister of Housing or any other minister or the Premier. I am interested in you speaking on behalf of seniors, and the question was very simple.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Could you repeat it then, please?
Mr Mahoney: Yes. Without the preamble, the question was: What are you prepared to do to increase the stock of housing for adults needing care?
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Hon Ms Ziemba: I am working with the various ministries to make sure the stock of housing available to seniors is increased, along with what was missing from the long-term reform plan that was announced by the previous government and the Strategies for Change. This was the fact that looking at the various housing, rest and retirement homes had been left out of that package and we are looking at how we will address that in our initiative.
Mr Mahoney: With respect, we can spend all day, I suppose, criticizing former governments: the Liberal government, the Conservative government. The day will come when you too will be a former government and will be subject to such criticism. But I do not find that terribly constructive when we are talking about what this ministry and this government is doing.
The concern is that a coroner's jury has made a clear-cut recommendation. You folks made a clear-cut promise. The statement is now being made that that promise, among other promises, cannot be delivered upon. As the advocate, and we talked about this yesterday, for senior citizens' affairs around the cabinet table, we need to have some assurance as members of the legislature that you are going to put forward as strong a case as possible, to treat this as a priority, because of a coroner's recommendation, not just because of some political promise in some vague document but because of a coroner's recommendation that resulted from a tragic death of one of our seniors.
With respect, Minister, I get the sense that you are going to again consult interministerially as opposed to fight as an advocate. I would just like some sense of confidence that you consider the increasing of stock of housing for adults needing care as a priority, that you are prepared to make that a priority and fight for that based on the coroner's recommendation. You have a very powerful document to go to your cabinet colleagues with. You do not have a political document; you have a coroner's recommendation. I think you have some serious ammunition to show to the Premier, the Minister of Housing and your other colleagues in the cabinet that they should be taking very seriously. I would like some assurance that you are going to do that.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I guess on my phrasing of words when I say that I am consulting with other ministers, I will now change that and say that I am advocating on behalf of seniors to other ministries. I feel that I will be doing that, that I have been doing that and that I will be looking after the concerns of seniors. You keep saying that I criticize former governments, but then you criticize other ministers and I feel that I have to respond to that.
Mr Mahoney: On a point of order, Madam Chair: I did not criticize any minister; I simply stated what the minister stated.
Hon Ms Ziemba: In a newspaper report and that has not always --
Mr Mahoney: Must be true.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am not too sure. I guess it would depend on the newspaper.
Mr Mahoney: I will come back to --
Hon Ms Ziemba: Can I just finish my answer, please --
Mr Mahoney: Sure.
Hon Ms Ziemba: -- and without being interrupted? So I will be advocating, I have been advocating and I will continue to advocate. We have already started to address the coroner's recommendations. We did that within 24 hours. There are 85 recommendations. We have started to address on many fronts -- the other recommendation that we have already started to work on is the advocacy commission. We made the ministerial statement in the House in December and that was a recommendation, although we would have done that whether the coroner's request had come out to do that or not.
That was something I felt very strongly about and had been fighting on the other side before being elected, to make sure that we did have an advocacy commission and I felt it very important, so I will continue to do that. We have, as I have said, not addressed all 85 recommendations, but we have certainly started to address the recommendations. We did that within the first 24 hours, we will continue to do so, and the advocacy commission was in the works. We did start to address that immediately, although we did not make the statement just because of the coroner. We did not know when the coroner's recommendations would come out or what would be in those recommendations, but we did feel it was strong. I am very pleased that the coroner's recommendations did state those facts and that we had already started to address them.
You are right that the coroner's recommendations are a very strong document and I am very pleased that they have worked so hard. You probably know that they spent 65 days, so it was a very intensive look into all of the facilities. It is the longest commission that ever was held in Canadian history. Again, another focal point to look at is that they spent their time and the recommendations should be listened to. We certainly will continue to look at them.
Mr Mahoney: Just on the point of order, Madam Chair: My question was very specific and I eliminated my preamble. With respect, we are looking for answers, not political speeches. I think the minister has usurped a substantial amount of the time that was remaining for Mrs McLeod and I would ask that you add 5 minutes at this time.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Mahoney, that is not a point of order. It is an opinion and we are not in a position to add time. Perhaps the minister will heed the request for shorter answers if possible.
Mrs McLeod: I will try to ask the shorter question. To change the focus for a minute, I have done a line-by-line analysis of your estimates book, and as a result of that line-by-line analysis I have to tell you there were only two questions on which I required further information. One is the question Ms Haslam has already asked and the other is a question relating to access funds, which I may come back to it at a future point. It is not going to the substance of my question at this point in time.
I think you realize that the reason there is not more information and therefore more questions that result from your estimates book is because you are an advocacy ministry and not a line ministry. In order to be an effective advocacy minister, it is absolutely essential that you be very much aware of the programs for seniors delivered by other line ministries and what those plans are for future programming and what the expenditures are in those areas.
This is why it is more than legitimate that we continue to ask questions that are not directly reflected in your own estimates books, because we are really dealing with the focus of your role as an advocacy minister. So we will continue to ask those questions because of our belief that we need you, in the interest of seniors, to be an informed and effective advocate with other ministries.
My question is going to be on the integrated homemakers program. I wonder if you could comment on the number of integrated homemakers programs across the province, on the need for expansion and on the cost of expansion.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I think I am going to refer that to my deputy minister or to Mr Adams. I would like to make a comment, though, if that is possible because we are leafing through things anyway. I want to clarify something. Having picked up something that I do not think I ever intended to pick up, I welcome all questions regarding seniors, but I think when they ask why we are laughing, it is just that one question that came out of estimates finally came, and that was the only reason that I responded to that. It was in a form of jest, as everybody else was jesting, but not in a form to be critical. I appreciate questions. Because they are still leafing, I will continue.
Mrs McLeod: Actually, while they are leafing, I am ready to use my time to ask a follow-up question which is a question only for you. I will appreciate the tabling of information by your staff at a future point. In terms of the policy direction, my supplementary question to the questions on integrated homemakers programs -- I can tell you that they are limited in number, that they do need to expand. The reason they have not been expanded is because of the sheer cost escalation of those programs. It is such a good program that the demand for it has increased tremendously.
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me, Minister, we are out of the Liberal allotment of time, but we will be coming back to you. Do we now understand that the information Mrs McLeod has requested will be tabled for all the committee members?
Mrs McLeod: I will leave the question with you and you can come back in a response, because in our next time I will turn to some other areas which will be your position on co-payments.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Certainly.
The Vice-Chair: The Minister will note that question and answer it in the next time slot.
Mr Jackson: Minister, in your role as an advocate for the elderly, can you share with us your understanding of the recommendations as they relate to the elderly in the Lowy report, and who do you discuss those with?
Hon Ms Ziemba: The Lowy report was a very interesting report and I have discussed it with many people. Sometimes it is hard for me to remember who I have discussed it with because I did discuss it prior to my election as well. We are still looking at the Lowy report, as you probably know, and I think it is a very crucial aspect to seniors' care. In fact, we discussed it just very recently and it is part of an overall look at how we work out things in the seniors' office.
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Mr Jackson: Are there any of the nine recommendations which you are interested in or you can talk to specifically? What was the nature of your discussion in detail about the Lowy report?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I cannot give you the detailed discussion. Since we are still in the process of working out how we are going to approach that, I do not think that would be --
Mr Jackson: Do you know what is in the Lowy report?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, I do.
Mr Jackson: What is it about?
Hon Ms Ziemba: It is about prescriptions and drugs for seniors and the cost and how they are used and the whole system. I have to tell you that the Minister of Health and I have been discussing, but on a very broader issue of the whole cost of prescriptions and how prescriptions are used and how we can update our process of looking at the prescription use for all people, but seniors in particular. I am waiting to hear her final report and I would welcome it. I am sure they will be making announcements regarding that in the near future.
Mr Jackson: You would be aware that the number one reason for admission to hospital for elderly people in this province is for inappropriate pharmacological applications, for inappropriate drug use and abuse, and I just simply would ask you to make it a priority. I know it has been for the Conservative caucus. We identified it in a proactive way years ahead of the Lowy commission. We have produced our own brochures in this area and I would like to give you one of them in the hope that you might consider encouraging the ministry to produce similar material for you to assist.
I know in my regular annual seniors' seminars we repeat this part of the program every year, because we wish to reduce the dependency of seniors on drugs. We wish to stabilize more and more of their situations, and as you know, the way the Ontario drug benefit plan is structured in this province, it is actually a greater cost because we allow three- and four-month prescriptions, and then after three days of use all of those pills have to be thrown in the garbage, against my strong protestations for structuring it that way in 1985. I was supported by one of your colleagues then, from Welland, who distinguished himself as a consumers' advocate, but as soon as he realized that the structure was wrong he was pulled from the committee because of his strong views that did not agree with the government and --
Ms Haslam: Is that your opinion?
Mr Jackson: No. He openly admitted it. As soon as he changed in committee, Mel Swart was pulled from the committee within 20 minutes of his admitting that this was bad for seniors and not good for consumers. But that was minority government and the Liberals could not do a thing without the support of the NDP, so poor Mel was expendable. However, his points are still valid and the concerns are now surfacing in the Lowy report. If I may, Minister, I will give you a copy of our brochure, checking the mix which we produced for seniors in this province, and it is given in the hope that you will consider enhancing and developing that in a program fashion.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I thank you and I appreciate not only this information but your concern. In my previous work, one of the things that our older adult centre used to do is it had what was called a "brown bag day" and that brown bag day meant that seniors brought in all of their prescriptions. We had pharmacists and doctors and nurses available to look at those prescriptions to see if they were outdated, and to see if at any one time a senior was taking things that would not properly mix with each other.
The unfortunate thing that has happened in our society is the overuse of drugs, I think, whether it is with seniors or with anybody else, but we all rely too much on -- you have a headache and you quickly run out and take an aspirin rather than --
Mr Jackson: I am sorry to interrupt. I appreciate your reminiscence. You have indicated that you are looking into the recommendations of the Lowy report --
Hon Ms Ziemba: Can I just interrupt for a minute? I do want to answer something else and I wanted to say something that led into that. I have been listening to people's reminiscences and also to their recommendations. I heard about what happened in 1985. Although it was probably very interesting, I did not think it was that relevant although I am interested in hearing what happened.
Mr Jackson: It was relevant because your party does not have a policy with respect to the ODB at the moment.
Hon Ms Ziemba: You do not know if they do and I think it is very inappropriate to say that. I am in the middle of an explanation and I would like to finish it. I just feel that was totally rude, Mr Jackson. It is not like you.
Mr Jackson: Well, it is like me, Minister --
Hon Ms Ziemba: No, not in the middle of --
Mr Jackson: -- to suggest to you that part of the process in estimates is to render the minister --
Hon Ms Ziemba: Can I tell you what I am doing with the Ministry of Health?
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I just find that less relevant.
Mr Jackson: I was asked a question --
The Vice-Chair: Let's have one person speak at a time.
Mr Jackson: On a point of order --
The Vice-Chair: All right. If you are going to raise a point of order, Mr Jackson.
Mr Jackson: Madam Chair, it is simply to do with this notion of time allocation and its relationship to how the minister uses the time and how we use the time. My understanding of the essence of estimates is that it is a question and answer process. We tend to try and make it a productive process by limiting our questions and limiting our responses. It has been identified by at least one other member of the committee that the minister has engaged in long answers. We have made it abundantly clear -- now we are in our fourth round of estimates -- that we would like to ask crisp, short questions and receive reasonable responses. That is a point of order that I would like to leave on the record and hope that the minister would respect that.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will pass my answer.
The Vice-Chair: I think the difficulty here is that you are here at the invitation of the committee.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I realize that.
The Vice-Chair: We are sympathetic to the fact that you may have a lot that you wish to express. I think in fairness to the committee members who are very short of time to ask the number of questions they have expressing their concerns, perhaps if your answers are going to be lengthy and you want to add to them you might want to do that at a later point in a written form.
The other thing that is rather ironic is that sometimes members of the committee will give a very long preamble, which is their choice. They do not even have to ask any questions --
Mr Mahoney: Like the Chair.
The Vice-Chair: -- as the rules of procedure are for these committee hearings. So there is a little imbalance between the ministry and the minister, as guests at the invitation of the committee, and how the committee members may use their time. I would appreciate it if the minister could make her answers a little shorter, but I also would appreciate it if the committee members would not interrupt the minister.
Mr Jackson: If I may just ask a question about the access fund, during my preamble statement yesterday I expressed concern about the rigid nature of the access fund. I wrote to the minister on 4 January with a specific case of an application from Burlington Alliance Church. The file number I can give to the assistant deputy minister.
The situation here is that it appears that on this application and perhaps others -- Mrs Marland has indicated she has one also -- with the change in government, the bureaucracy was unable to respond to the application. As I indicated yesterday, that was not the fault of the new government. There was time for adjustment required. However, there are groups that have been caught in this adjustment period. Their application was denied because they had to proceed with construction.
My question to the minister is, first of all, did you receive my 4 January letter, because I have not received a response, and can we talk about whether or not you will look at those groups that fall within that narrow adjustment period and review their applications? That was the nature of my request to you in writing.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will answer the second question first. The second question is whether I would review and look at those people who fell between the cracks and the answer is yes. I would defer the first question to Doug Mayer from my ministry.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Mayer, perhaps you would introduce yourself for the purposes of Hansard, please.
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Mr Mayer: I am Douglas Mayer and I co-ordinate the access fund. Mr Jackson, in response to your concern about the delay in processing of the application, perhaps I may go through with you briefly the chronology of events as it relates to the application from Burlington Alliance.
Mr Jackson: I am sorry to interrupt, but it would be inappropriate that your non-response to my letter would necessitate taking up 5 or 10 minutes of estimates time. That is not fair to the rest of the committee. As well, there are several other members who are caught in a similar situation. As much as I am flattered at your interest, I wrote a letter for the specific reason for you to set that out for me. I wish to determine, more generally, how many applications were rejected because they disqualified themselves because they had to proceed with construction, because other members may have those cases in there. That would be a more productive exchange of our time at this point. You and I can talk privately.
My first question then would be, which ministry are you attached to?
Mr Mayer: I am with the Ministry of Citizenship and the program is co-funded through the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs and the Office for Disabled Persons.
Mr Jackson: Thank you. That is what I thought. Could we talk about the number of applications that have been rejected that may have occurred in this period of adjustment between ministries? I realize that there are criteria for rejection and one is that you cannot start construction.
Mr Mayer: Correct. There were no applications that were rejected due to the changeover in government and the perceived time loss in that.
Mr Jackson: Perceived time loss. That is an interesting statement. My understanding is that some people have had quick turnaround responses from the previous government and that the application in question was filed in sufficient time but it could not be done under the 90 days and therefore they started construction. They shared that with you, and the rejection notice was on the basis that construction had begun, period, end of sentence.
I am trying to differentiate between your right to say, "You started construction, you are ineligible," versus, "We did process in a timely fashion, and had you processed it in a timely fashion you might have rejected us but you would not have rejected us because we had not started construction."
Mr Mayer: Your application was processed in a timely fashion and the criteria of the program were applied, but in this application, as with all previous applications which were filed in similar conditions and circumstances, the applicant was notified as per procedure and as per practice. They were notified immediately upon recognition that in fact they were not eligible. There was not a delay.
Mr Jackson: Then the minister is agreeing to re-examine a file but the position of the bureaucracy is that there was no reason for it because it was handled properly.
Mr Mayer: In response to your question about this application, it was handled properly, yes, sir.
Mr Jackson: This is an odd box that Burlington Alliance finds itself in. Minister, based on that information, are you prepared to re-examine these cases? And if so, for what reason?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Mr Jackson, I will review it because you have asked me to and I would like to do that on a point of goodwill. If anyone else has a particular interest in one too, I would like to do that just to see why they were turned down, and what the criteria were for turning down the proposal. I think that in good faith I would like to respond to you in that fashion.
Ms Haslam: I just wanted to know, since we are asking you specific questions, where you feel the best place is for seniors to live when they cannot look after themselves.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I still believe that the best place for seniors to live is in their own home with community support. If we can provide the support for seniors and if we can have the supports all in place so that people could have Meals on Wheels, home help, friendly visiting, shopping services and transportation, living in their own community is still the best place to live.
Ms Haslam: Could you share with us some of your plans for promoting those goals?
Hon Ms Ziemba: We hope to expand the home support services that are in all communities to enhance and improve, and if there are non-existing programs, I will be advocating to make sure -- I am phrasing that very carefully -- that there are programs in place, that we have an equitable system across Ontario because, unfortunately, there has not been an equitable system across Ontario. It has been fragmented, it has been left open to commercialization and it has been left open to people living off of other people's ills and woes.
Ms Haslam: I am interested in the home care and I would like to mention two things to you. One was mentioned just recently by one of my honourable colleagues, and that was regarding the VON and the home care program that you said you were going to look into. It came up in another committee when they came to ask about that particular program, and I feel very strongly that that is a very good program. That is the first comment. The second comment is that somebody came to me with a new program called Wheels to Meals. Have you ever heard of that program?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes. Many non-profit agencies use Wheels to Meals and it is different. Meals on Wheels is actually the meal delivered to the home -- and we have this in our agency as well, only we called it a diners' club. But the program that you are referring to is that the seniors are picked up in their home, taken to a central location, whether it is the church or what not, and then are able to share meals with other people and have a dining experience out, rather than being at home alone.
Ms Haslam: Now, contrary to my opponent, I am not aware of this and I would not mind your telling me a little bit about it because it certainly is something that was just brought to my attention by somebody in the last day or so. I have a couple of questions about it. When you look at the clientele for Meals on Wheels, is it the same clientele or is it a different clientele that makes use of Wheels to Meals?
Hon Ms Ziemba: It would probably be the same clientele, though there are obviously some people who would not want to participate, as perhaps any other age group would not want to participate in a social event. It breaks down the barriers of isolation that seniors face when they are living in their own home. Meals on Wheels is a wonderful program, but you have to understand that when the meals are delivered, there is a short conversation, but the visit is over on a very quick basis.
Ms Haslam: I am thinking about disabled people, whether your Wheels to Meals can accommodate some of those that Meals on Wheels does, or whether there are some who would be better off on the Meals on Wheels program.
Hon Ms Ziemba: The Wheels to Meals is meant as an enhancement, not as a substitute. It is an enhancement to make sure that seniors do have an opportunity to sit down with other people and have a visit and have a day out, rather than being home alone. Again, it is a process to break down those barriers of isolation. Most agencies were accommodating very, very frail people, people that were well over the 90s, and volunteers would pick them up, usually two volunteers, so that the assistance would be there and provided. The one thing that we have always noticed, though, is that --
Ms Haslam: Madam Chair, I am having difficulty hearing again. I understand that this gentleman can be brought up as a witness. If there are questions for him, perhaps that is the place he should be utilized. Thank you.
Hon Ms Ziemba: In the Wheels to Meals program, the other consideration is always taken into place, that for seniors and for anybody with a hearing disability or hearing impairment, it is very difficult to have great groups of people, so it is always attempted that it is a smaller number of people that are brought together, rather than a large group. Then it is not confusing, it is not threatening and it is more of a nice social event rather than a huge threatening situation or environment.
Ms Haslam: I have a couple more questions. How much time is left, Madam Chair?
The Vice-Chair: Ten minutes, and you have two other members.
Ms Haslam: Who is next?
The Vice-Chair: Mr Ward and Mr Wilson.
Ms Haslam: Mr Ward has mentioned that he does not mind me taking time for another question, so --
The Vice-Chair: It is entirely up to your caucus.
Ms Haslam: I know, but there have been times when I have been cut off because the comment was made, "There are other people in your caucus who wish to ask questions." I was just checking with you. I like you. You are a better Chair. Now I have some --
The Vice-Chair: I am certainly glad I have not cut you off, Ms Haslam.
Ms Haslam: That is right. I have some other questions about advisory committees. I am sure some of the officials in the bureaucracy here will wince when I ask this. This is the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs under "Corporate Services," and it says: "Advisory committees represent various professions that deal with seniors. Materials directly target specific segments of the professional community, motivating and assisting them to respond to the needs of seniors." I wondered what some of those materials were, and if one of those programs was the Good Neighbours program.
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Hon Ms Ziemba: I will let Mr Adams respond to that.
Mr Adams: I can answer that question, if I could just pull out my file. This refers to our education resources unit, which is a small unit in terms of people on our staff, but they have established six different committees that draw together people from professions and so on. The six committees are a multifaith committee, a professional care givers committee, a marketing and media and merchandisers committee, an intergenerational committee and a volunteer committee. I mentioned health care professionals, I think, and there is a general committee whose name eludes me.
The modus operandi is that -- these are all volunteers, by the way; they do not get paid. These people are professionals, people who work with seniors, and they meet and address what the needs are relative to those particular areas that they cover off. They have a budget which allows them to develop resources, and many of those resources you see over on the table over here.
Ms Haslam: Then that is not what I was looking for. I was looking for in particular the Good Neighbours. That is something different. I made a note that 20 communities take advantage of the Good Neighbours. I would like a list of the communities that have that program. I also want a breakdown of the amounts that were put into each of those programs and those communities, if there were any.
Mr Adams: Very good.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Maybe, Mr Adams, you would like to furnish that at another time and for the benefit of all the committee members. I am sure they would all like to know that.
Mr Adams: I would be glad to distribute that after lunch.
Ms Haslam: And I believe I will have time again, will I not?
The Vice-Chair: This afternoon? Yes. Mr Ward.
Mr Ward: Before I focus in on my question, Minister, I would like to state that you can freely answer as long as you want. I do not think we should be cutting you off and explaining your opinions or the ministry's policies when it comes to seniors. I think that we should allow you to be full and frank with us as an estimates committee.
I would like to focus in on your statement that you made yesterday to this committee, the aspect of the central information and referral service that your ministry I believe has just expanded, as far as that aspect is concerned in our province. Part of the problem that I have experienced as an MPP when it comes to dealing with seniors' issues has been the fact that when seniors contact my constituency office, it is for information on a number of key issues, which I will not go into today because I could use up the whole morning.
The Vice-Chair: The five minutes you have.
Mr Ward: Yes. But I believe that by expanding our information service to the seniors we can overcome some of the problems that the seniors apparently have in our communities. They are not sure what programs are available to them, what services are provided as far as our government is concerned. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a bit on this expansion that has occurred, and if you feel that it is adequate in the sense of ensuring that if seniors require information, they are aware of this information gathering service. Perhaps you could just, to the best of your ability as minister, in the brief time that you have been serving in your capacity as minister, talk a bit about this information service that our province has and the expansion that has occurred since our government took over on September 6.
Hon Ms Ziemba: The service has been expanded to a toll-free number which is very beneficial to seniors. It was very difficult when it was under a collect number, although that assists because the cost is defrayed. People do feel very uncomfortable using a collect number rather than a toll-free number.
The services are expanded to be able to assist seniors with information, and you are very correct in that across the province, services are delivered in many different ways. They are fragmented services. It is very difficult for a senior, it is very difficult for anybody to figure out where the services are that seniors require because of the fragmentation that has developed over the years.
Some services are provided by non-profit organizations, other services are provided by commercial, and then of course there are some places where there are no services provided at all. The type of questions that are most frequently asked at the toll-free number are questions regarding people's pensions and what is available to them in that respect.
But I know that having worked in an agency, the type of questions that were most really frequently asked by family members and seniors themselves were what type of assistance people could have to be able to live in their own homes independently and with dignity and still be able to maintain a life and not feel that there are prohibitive powers to them.
We hope that this toll-free number will expand the services available, but I must say as well that by reforming the process which is out there and which has to be reformed, we hope that will also cut down on the confusion. Perhaps in each area there would be one number that people could call rather than various places that they have to go to. But it is a very confusing system in place right now.
Mr B. Ward: Just a comment, Madam Chair: You look a little bit flushed there.
The Vice-Chair: I look a little bit flushed?
Mr B. Ward: You are getting that flu that is so rampant.
Mr Mahoney: I think she looks wonderful.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Mahoney thinks I look wonderful. I do have a very severe cold, Mr Ward, thank you. We have two minutes left, Mr Wilson. Is that long enough for you to get started?
Mr G. Wilson: Not really, no. I had a couple of questions to ask and both will require a bit more time.
The Vice-Chair: Go ahead.
Mr G. Wilson: I will start the questions and maybe we can return to it. This comes from a rally I participated in in my riding on the weekend. It was good to see but like a lot of rallies it addressed a very dismaying problem, which is the suicide rate among the native population in the Kingston penitentiary for women. In the last six months there have been six suicide attempts, five of them successful, the most recent a few weeks ago. The problem of course is that native people face a double whammy here, not only the very poor services to begin with, but even when they do end up in prison, the services there appear not to be adequate to deal with the problems that they face.
I was wondering if this carries over too into the aboriginal elderly. Is there a problem there and what is your ministry doing to address it?
Hon Ms Ziemba: It is a very serious problem with all native people. Part of the problem that addresses the native community is that the services are not available in their own community and unfortunately they are moved out of their community to receive the services in not only a different community but a different cultural experience, a different language and a totally different type of environment.
I think I mentioned yesterday that the seniors in the native community are at a lower percentage rate than the other population in our Canadian society. Mainly that is because of the suicide rate and the various poverty levels they have faced over the years. People in the native community just do not attain senior years. The highest proportion of deaths occur prior to people even attaining 65. There is a very high mortality rate for children, not just the birth rate but the children themselves. It is a very difficult thing we face in that they do not, unfortunately, get to the golden years we do, and we have to address that. Our government is very committed to addressing the poverty issue with natives, towards self-government and towards making sure that our native community deserves a life filled with equality.
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Mrs McLeod: I did leave a question directly for the minister. I would appreciate a direct answer to that question, because I do, on second thought, have a further question on the estimates book.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am going to try to make the answer very short. People have been passing me notes, and I am not going to use them on purpose. The reason I am not going to is that I am going to be very honest with you.
Mr Mahoney: The notes are not honest?
Hon Ms Ziemba: No, they are not your notes, Mr Mahoney.
The Vice-Chair: Could you speak up a little?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Strategies for Change had a very definite portion to it on co-payment in long-term care. We are reviewing that and changing that policy but we have not finished doing that and we will not be able to tell you -- probably in three weeks' time, but I would be very willing to share that with you as soon as my other two colleagues and myself come to a final decision.
Mrs McLeod: I appreciate that. I would have anticipated that that would be the answer. I would just urge you, please, as you have that deliberation about the change in direction, to ensure that it was related to income testing, not to means testing, to ensure that it would only be those who could truly afford to pay some portion of a co-payment who would have to pay anything -- the reason for introducing that was a very urgent sense of need to expand the programs of support at home. If there is to be a change in that, I hope it is in the context of a real ability to continue to expand that program.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I thank you for sharing that with me.
The Vice-Chair: And could we ensure that the answer, as the question was placed in committee, two or three weeks from now is with all members of the committee?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I think there will be a public announcement.
The Vice-Chair: I am just confirming that.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will certainly share that with everybody.
Mrs McLeod: I was not anticipating selective information, but if there is to be selective information I would certainly appreciate that as well.
The second area of questioning I would like to raise is on the main office activity of the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs, recognizing that there is an increase in the main office budget in the salary and wage line of $55,500. There is an increase over last year's estimates. I would like to ask you whether there has been any change in the staffing levels of the office of senior citizens since these estimates were originally prepared.
Mr Adams: There is no significant workplace change in our staff. There are fluctuations from people coming and going, as you can appreciate.
Mrs McLeod: Just raw numbers. I am wondering if there has been a significant change. I am not even looking for detailed numbers. For instance, do you still have a correspondence unit?
Mr Adams: Of course, yes.
Mrs McLeod: You do have a correspondence unit. May I ask the minister, then, because I do not need numbers, that if there are changes, I would appreciate having those tabled for the committee's information.
Mr Adams: We happen to have -- Mr Jackson asked a question yesterday, which I think might satisfy -- could we have the clerk distribute this?
Mrs McLeod: That would be excellent. Thank you very much.
Hon Ms Ziemba: There are also some other answers and questions that have to be distributed. I do not know when is the appropriate time to do it, so I will leave it with the Chair.
Mrs McLeod: I would reiterate what the Chairman indicated in our last session. One of the reasons for our impatience is that we are limited by a 15-minute time segment, so we are anxious to get the questions at least tabled for a response.
The reason I have asked again Mr Jackson's question yesterday about staffing levels in the office for seniors' affairs and specifically asked whether there was a correspondence unit is a reflection of my surprise in two respects now: One is that the deputy for Citizenship appears to be responding to seniors' issues; the other is that this morning we have had someone who indicates that he is working for the Ministry of Citizenship who appears to be dealing with correspondence on seniors. I would like to ask the reasons for that, minister.
Mr Norberg: If I may, Douglas Mayer, who appeared before the committee a few moments ago, is in fact employed with the office for disability issues. It is a historical fact that under the previous government the access program operated on behalf of the two offices.
Mrs McLeod: Could I just clarify that? I will apologize if I heard incorrectly. I thought he had identified himself as working with the Ministry of Citizenship.
Mr Norberg: I am sorry. You are right, and he did.
Mrs McLeod: I do know the other program is a jointly administered program and would not have been surprised if he had been from the Office for Disabled Persons.
Mr Norberg: It is a jointly administered program. I apologize for that. Douglas works on behalf of two offices.
Mrs McLeod: The question stands, then?
Mr Norberg: Douglas does work on behalf of the two offices in delivering that program.
Mrs McLeod: As a member of the staff of the Ministry of Citizenship?
Mr Norberg: No, as a member of the staff for the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs.
The Vice-Chair: I wonder if he knows where he is going in the morning. It would be pretty tough.
Mrs McLeod: I confess to some confusion, and again I would pose the question. There seems to be representation on the seniors' estimates from the Ministry of Citizenship. Is that correct or not correct?
Mr Norberg: My response to that is that there is one deputy minister working with the Minister of Citizenship who has responsibility for seniors, for disability issues, for human rights, race relations and other functions attached to the Ministry of Citizenship, and I do support the minister in that broader context. At the same time, the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs, which is attached to the minister and the ministry, has as its most senior official Philip Adams, who was, previous to the new government, senior adviser for that office and is still working in that capacity as senior adviser. So we are both here in our support roles to the minister.
Mrs McLeod: So your role as deputy now overlaps all of the areas of advocacy which the minister has been assigned?
Mr Norberg: I do support her with respect to all of her responsibilities.
Mrs McLeod: Again, I would ask for some clarification of the staff line under which the government just made a presentation in response to Mr Jackson's question on correspondence. Is he under staff of the Ministry of Citizenship, or which staff would he actually be employed by?
Mr Norberg: In the broadest context he is a staff member of the Ministry of Citizenship, but in fact he is on staff of the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs and there has been no change in his status in that respect.
Mrs McLeod: I suspect I may be asking an impossible question. Is it at all possible that we would be able to get any sense of the number of areas of overlapping staff and how those staff budgets are being assigned? I know we are only in seniors' estimates, minister, so it is very difficult for me to find a way of phrasing the question and have it related solely to seniors, but I am interested in the issue of staff change, the effect it has on the estimates for seniors, whether all of the seniors' staff are continuing to do the work which was intended they do when these estimates were prepared. If that is the case, there must be considerably more work being done in the advocacy of seniors if members of other staff are being drawn into the seniors' work. Obviously, if we were doing Citizenship estimates or disabled estimates, that could be some cause for concern in those areas. If there is any way of beginning to respond to that in a written format, I would appreciate it.
I must tell you that the issue gives me cause for concern, because as these estimates were originally drawn up and presented and the budget provisions made to support the estimates, there was a very sound basis provided here for a strong advocacy role for the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs. The confusion that is arising, if these were new estimates, would lead me to challenge the estimates themselves. I will yield the floor on that question.
The Vice-Chair: Minister, will you provide that information about in what areas of staffing there is an overlap and where the deployment of that staff is?
Mrs McLeod: And whether that has altered the role descriptions for the staff of the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs?
Hon Ms Ziemba: We will table that.
Mr Daigeler: Going back to the Kendall case: Although it occurred in an unlicensed residential facility, it does raise the related general question of the role private nursing homes should play in this province. When the NDP was in opposition, I think it was highly critical of the private sector in that field. I am wondering what your view is now. Do you still maintain that position? If you are planning to reduce the influence of the private sector in caring for seniors, how are you planning to go about that? If not, if you think there is still a substantive role for private nursing homes, do you have any plans to fund them on a more equitable level together with the municipal homes for the aged and the charitable homes for the aged? I would like you to comment on that.
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Hon Ms Ziemba: I wish I could tell you the very short, precise answer, but again I am going to have to say we are reviewing that under Strategies for Change that were coming in the long-term reform, and the Ministry of Health is also reviewing the aspect of nursing homes. I would like to answer that when we finish our review and when we finish our look at that. I also will ask the Ministry of Health to give you a further answer, if that --
Mr Daigeler: I did not ask for the view of the Ministry of Health. I asked for your view. It is amazing what an election does. The Premier, who had very firm opinions before the election, and his ministers as well, all of a sudden become very unclear on what their views are. I am asking what your views are with regard to the private sector in the nursing home field. That is a very straightforward question. It is a policy question. I think we are entitled to know that. What are your views on the role of the private sector in nursing care?
Hon Ms Ziemba: My views have not changed before or after the election. That is my personal view.
Mr Daigeler: And what is it?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I do not think I should be giving a personal view here. What I am telling you is that nursing homes do come under long-term care, and we are making a definite change in policy. I cannot tell you exactly what that is because, as you know, having been in government, we have to go through cabinet committee and we have to go through cabinet. When we finally get the approval from cabinet and from our colleagues, I will come back to you with what those policy changes are, if any.
Mr Daigeler: I find it very amazing that you are hesitant or that you decline to state your views -- you are a minister of the crown now -- on a very important sector of care in this province. I find this unbelievable. I am sure you stated that publicly during the election. Are you now hesitant to repeat that in public?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am not hesitant, but as you would share with me, when you are in government, you cannot make a commitment until all of the cabinet has approved that as well. It would be totally inappropriate for me to do that. What I can say to you is that we are working very quickly on that and we will be coming up with a very definite statement for you. I would be very pleased, in fact ecstatic, to tell you what that is.
Mr Daigeler: I am not asking for a commitment on behalf of the government. You obviously cannot give that. I am asking what your views are as the minister responsible for senior citizens' affairs and in your role as an advocate for that group of people. Obviously, you are not willing to do that and I will pass my question on to Mr Mann.
Hon Ms Ziemba: As an advocate for seniors, I want to make sure --
Mr Mahoney: Mann? Who the hell is Mann?
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me, the minister is responding to the question.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Very shortly, as an advocate for seniors I want to make sure that seniors are provided with the best possible care in all levels.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, minister. That completes that segment for the official opposition. Mr Mahoney, you will be first on the list next. The rotation should now be Mr Jackson for the Tory caucus, but there is a medical emergency in his constituency office so we will move to the government members and stack Mr Mahoney's time this afternoon. I have Mr Wilson and Ms Haslam.
Ms Haslam: Madam Chair, I do not understand. There is a gentleman in the caucus here for the third party who can ask questions in this allotted time.
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me, Ms Haslam. I am ruling, after a request from Mr Jackson, that he had to leave, that his time be deferred till later in the meeting. With respect, we have accommodated members, including your own. When your ministers were not able to be here, we did allow an exception in the rotation. We are simply making an exception in the rotation and I am asking that Mr Jackson's time be applied later in the meeting, and going now to the government members for their rotation.
Ms Haslam: I apologize. I thought I heard you say we were going to stack his time.
The Vice-Chair: Well, same words. He is not using his 15 minutes now. There is equal distribution of the time in these estimates hearings, so he will be entitled to use that 15 minutes later in the meeting.
Ms Haslam: That 15 minutes.
Mr Mahoney: Madam Chair, scheduling problems arise all the time and now what is going to happen is that the government will go for 15 minutes --
Mr Perruzza: On a point of order, Madam Chair.
Mr Mahoney: Excuse me. I am making a point, sir.
Mr Perruzza: Madam Chair, you just gave Mr Mahoney the floor. He did not rise on any point. You gave them their time, you told them he was going to have the floor --
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me, Mr Perruzza, you are not on a point of order either. I think we will just proceed. Mr Mahoney was trying to make a comment, I think, in support of the ruling of the Chair.
Mr Mahoney: No. Madam Chair, you have created a problem with your ruling, and I would like an opportunity to point it out to you.
The Vice-Chair: If you are raising a point of order --
Mr Perruzza: Then he should do that.
The Vice-Chair: -- then raise a point of order, Mr Mahoney.
Mr Mahoney: It is not a point of order, it is a point of information or a question.
The Vice-Chair: Then I am not recognizing you. If you want to make a point of order I have to --
Mr Mahoney: Why do you not just run it in whatever way you see fit?
Mr Daigeler: On a point of order, Madam Chair: I think we have been very --
Mr Mahoney: A real democratic system.
Mr Daigeler: I think you are changing the procedure and I think people should have an opportunity to briefly comment on that procedure.
The Vice-Chair: Go ahead.
Mr Daigeler: Well, Mr Mahoney wanted to comment on that.
Mr Mahoney: My concern, Madam Chair, is that -- Interjection.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Perruzza, let's not complicate --
Mr Mahoney: What is the matter with you?
Mr Perruzza: If he has a point of order, let him rise on the point of order --
Mr Mahoney: If it makes him happy, I will call it a point of order and you can then make the decision.
The Vice-Chair: Please do that.
Mr Mahoney: I am glad we have someone who understands Roberts rules on the government side. Maybe he should try to understand a little courtesy.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Mahoney, you have the floor.
Mr Mahoney: The concern I have, Madam Chair, and my point of order, is that the normal rotation now requires, if I am first on the list, that the government will go until approximately 11:50, and then I will be required to finish off till noon. I have another commitment which I have made this morning based on the rotation and I am not able to be here between 11:45 and 12 o'clock. What Mr Jackson has done -- my colleagues can fill in, but I wish to get the point on. I wonder if you would consider having us continue and then finish off with 15 minutes of the government members.
Mr Perruzza: Madam Chair, what is the point?
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me, I am going to respond to Mr Mahoney first. The Chair is at the wish of the committee. If the committee would like to rotate now to the government members and start earlier this afternoon to allow for the completion of the full time, that is an option, to come back at quarter to 2.
Ms Haslam: On a point of information, Madam Chair: You are talking about the changes that were made. With all due respect, we ate some of the time because it was pointed out to me that our minister was late, and I ate that time. So I do not feel that this ruling affects that particular situation. There is a member from the caucus here to ask questions. To pass over because he does not want to ask questions is not right.
Mr McLean: On a point of order, Madam Chair: I am the quiet fellow around here who never says much, and when I say something I think it should be listened to. The fact is that Mr Jackson is the critic for that ministry, not I. I am here today as a committee member only. It is up to our critic to ask questions, not because somebody else is sitting in the caucus.
Ms Haslam: Then that means the three Liberals are all critics, because they have all asked questions.
Mr McLean: That is their desire.
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me. This is getting entirely out of hand.
Mr Daigeler: Would it be possible to simply give the rest of the time to the government caucus, as we have done before, and then go to half an hour for the two other caucuses this afternoon?
The Vice-Chair: We are doing a very good job of using up the time as we are discussing it. Unless there is a problem, we will now proceed with the government members. If, at the end of that time, the critic for the official opposition is not here, then his time, too, will be available this afternoon, and we will simply adjourn at that time.
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Ms Haslam: Give him this 15 minutes, we will take the next 15 minutes and then Mr Jackson can come in for his 15 minutes.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Ms Haslam.
Ms Haslam: When he comes back --
Mr Perruzza: It would be worth noting that the government side of this committee is bending over backwards to accommodate the official opposition's schedule. Then the third party --
The Vice-Chair: Okay. Thank you, Mr Perruzza.
Mr Perruzza: I note it for the record.
The Vice-Chair: So it is now 11:40 and the official opposition has 15 minutes.
Mr Mahoney: Thank you, Ms Haslam, for that suggestion which I made earlier. It is nice to know that on some things we are on the same wavelength. If you could get control of some of your caucus members, I would be delighted.
Minister, it has been brought to my attention that there is some inconsistency of application of federal immigration laws and provincial housing laws. This is very disconcerting and I would like to know if you are aware of it. Apparently, the wealthy immigrants coming into this country may sponsor their parents to come by posting a bond worth $20,000, and the parents then live off the interest. I do not know how anyone lives off $2,000 a year, plus or minus, but they live off the interest. Because of the low level of income that this provides, these same parents find themselves in the deep core section for subsidized housing, or the highest need level for subsidized housing.
Conversely, someone who is unable to put up such a bond, the $20,000, can bring his parents here by guaranteeing lodging and must show that he is able to pay $800 a month -- $9,600 a year -- as support level for his parents who obviously become senior citizens for the most part within our community, and they are unlikely to be eligible for any form of subsidized housing.
My problem is that here we have wealthy immigrants, able to put up a $20,000 bond, bringing their parents in and putting them on the highest level of social assistance. We have not so wealthy, or indeed perhaps not wealthy at all, immigrants coming in who are only allowed to bring their parents here if they are prepared to sponsor them for $800 a month in housing costs.
An obvious inequity, I would say. I guess my question to you is, are you aware of this situation and do you understand it as I have outlined it?
Hon Ms Ziemba: There are a lot of problems with immigration as set out by the federal government. I think I have made several statements to the fact that I am meeting with my federal counterparts, as my staff have been doing, to see how we can work out an arrangement or an agreement with the federal government, because Ontario does not have one right now.
We will be addressing all of the issues pertaining to immigration, pertaining to seniors, and there are many concerns. I think I mentioned earlier too that not only are seniors brought over in a situation where you say that families agree to then give adequate shelter and housing -- that does not always happen and people are then forced into a situation where they are either abused or not being looked after by their families, and have to then go to the welfare system.
We have a lot of concerns about immigration with seniors and reunification with families pertaining to different levels. I will look into that particular scenario you have just given me, and when I do start our talks with the federal government, we will take that into consideration. I thank you very much for bringing that to my attention.
Mr Mahoney: Do I understand your answer then that you personally -- I do not mean this critically -- are not aware of that? It has only been brought to my attention. I was not aware of it, but if you are not aware -- I am just trying to get some confirmation and maybe your deputy could confirm that what I have laid out is essentially correct.
Mr Norberg: I would need to do some more checking myself to look into the specifics that you have outlined for us, Mr Mahoney. I am sure the minister will want me to do that as a result of your tabling that information. So I will be doing that and getting back to her on it.
Mr Mahoney: Further on the housing issue -- I recognize the difficulty and I am not asking you to speak for the Minister of Housing, as you suggested I was earlier. I am not. I am asking you to speak on behalf of this ministry.
As you are probably aware, particularly from your involvement locally in the past, there are a number of very successful non-profit housing projects, corporations. Peel Non-Profit Housing Corp is one of the most successful and finest such corporations in the country, for that matter. I was not the youngest, like Mr Jackson, but I was a past president of that corporation in my earlier life.
One of the things that it is relatively easy to do is to develop a non-profit housing project in a community for senior citizens. It is not so easy to develop one for families, because of the fears -- often unfounded, but still, perception is reality -- of people in the community of creating difficulties and problems that they perceive that relate more to Ontario Housing projects perhaps than they do to non-profit housing. So it is difficult to do family. It is extremely difficult to do special needs. Whether it is former psychiatric patients or whatever, to do special needs nonprofit projects is just an uphill battle all the way. Regardless of where you go, whether it is Mrs Marland's NIMBY syndrome -- there, I give you credit for inventing that word.
The Vice-Chair: 1977.
Mr Mahoney: There you go. Or whether it is other fears in the community, it is a difficult situation.
Whether it is on a unilateral basis such as Homes Now was by our government -- the first time any government provincially has gone unilaterally to the non-profit sector -- have you given any thought to developing integrated non-profit, and perhaps pushing for it, for seniors? I realize I am going on a bit, but I think this is such an important issue, not only for the good of the community but for the good of the seniors -- rather than isolating them in strictly seniors' complexes, to bring them together. I would cite the example that has been used in day care settings where senior citizens are involved and you create the grandmother-grandfather impact, which is to the benefit of the children as well as to the benefit of the seniors. Have you looked at some form of integrated housing that could involve seniors, families and special needs groups?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am glad you asked that question. Thank you. In my former life I started a housing project that is carrying on and is actually getting funding. it will be an integrated housing system such as the Mennonite system that is at Bathurst and Lawrence, I believe. There is a wonderful project there where what you are citing is just that example. There are families. There are people with disabilities. There are seniors. They are all living in what we would like to think of as a community setting.
The project that I helped start is going to be built at St Clair and Bathurst, and it is an exciting project. There will be more projects coming along in that venue, I am sure, as people see that this does work and that it is an exciting way to house people, because quite frankly what you have suggested is a natural way to live. If people live in their own communities, they are living beside families and beside people with disabilities or they are living beside all sorts of types of people. We would want to encourage that. I think that is an exciting process and I thank you for asking me that. I think it is very good.
Mr Mahoney: I appreciate the community work that you did in starting something like that. I have been involved in similar types of projects. What I am really looking for, though, is some --
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes.
Mr Mahoney: -- proactive decisions or a proactive plan of action by your ministry. Recognizing you cannot speak for Mr Cooke and you cannot speak for Mrs Akande and you cannot speak for the Premier, I am asking Minister Ziemba to tell us that you are prepared to be proactive, and to promote this kind of thing within your ministry, and how you are going to do it.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes. That is short, right?
Mr Mahoney: Yes, but how? There were two questions there.
Hon Ms Ziemba: How? By advocating in my role as the minister responsible for senior citizens and by sitting on various committees, suggesting, showing the projects that exist, and there are many, and I know there are many more that are being started. There was quite a long list.
You were asking me a question earlier about home sharing. Was it you, Mr Mahoney? Were you asking that particular question, because I was going to respond to it if you did ask me that question previously.
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Mr Mahoney: About home sharing?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, for Mr Cooke. Oh, I am sorry. It was at the other side. I am sorry for taking your time.
Mrs McLeod: Minister, will you be advocating increases in comfort allowances?
Hon Ms Ziemba: In comfort allowances?
Mrs McLeod: Yes.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am reviewing that possibility but I cannot say yes or no at this time.
Mrs McLeod: You are aware of the concerns that are being expressed by residents' councils in homes for the aged in relationship to the level of the comfort allowance.
You mentioned Meals on Wheels yesterday and in your discussion you described some of the inconsistencies in the way in which the Meals on Wheels program is delivered. I have some concerns about the number of communities which do not have a Meals on Wheels program at all. I wonder if you have a sense of how many communities that would be true of. I would think it is primarily rural communities. Have you any plans to expand the Meals on Wheels program to rural communities or any communities which in fact do not have that program now?
Hon Ms Ziemba: It is a very good question. It is a very big concern of my ministry, myself and the Ministry of Community and Social Services, that what we have seen in place is a fragmentation of services. Not only are there communities that do not have any Meals on Wheels program, but there are communities that as well only perhaps deliver meals once a week, or three times a week, which is not adequate, obviously.
So yes, we are looking at expansion. That again is under long-term reform and Strategies for Change. When we come out with our full package I will be able to explain that in more depth to you. But it is a necessity that I keep advocating, to make sure that every senior in this province -- and not only seniors but the disabled community uses Meals On Wheels as well. people who might have an acute problem for a short length of time and who need the services for a short length of time, or people who have AIDS have often used the service as well. We must make sure that service is available to all members of our society, seven days a week across the province, everywhere.
Mrs McLeod: Another question I had in a similar vein is your comments on the extension of accessible taxi service.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes. That is also a big concern because as you know in some rural communities -- you are probably more aware of this than myself, having come from a portion of a rural community -- there are inadequate transportation services. We have to make sure that the people have the ability to move around. Again I have to congratulate Thunder Bay from whence you come because there is a wonderful program in place for the disabled community which has done wonderful work on being able to provide a good service in Thunder Bay for their community. We have to make sure that we look at services that are in place and learn from their experiences and expand them across the province. So congratulations to Thunder Bay.
Mrs McLeod: I appreciate that. We are not a rural community, however. Although we are a northern community, we are very much an urban community.
Hon Ms Ziemba: But you are closer to a rural community that has more problems than where I am from in west-end Toronto.
Mrs McLeod: We are out of time, Madam Chairman?
The Vice-Chair: Yes.
Mrs McLeod: I will just add then that if you were to look at the rural communities outside of the urban area of Thunder Bay, the problems of providing programs such as Meals on Wheels and accessible transportation are much more significant again and --
Hon Ms Ziemba: Oh, I realize that --
Mrs McLeod: -- those are areas that have simply not been touched yet.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Wilson, you had a question to complete.
Mr G. Wilson: It was actually in follow-up to the response to the -- mine might take a little longer. Do you have a short question to get in?
The Vice-Chair: Mr Wilson, you have the floor. I have Ms Haslam and Mr Ward.
Mr G. Wilson: It is, as I say, a follow-up. What struck me about the minister's response to the question of the needs of aboriginal seniors was the startling response that, proportionally, they are fewer because they do not make it to that age. That suggests a societal concern and I guess I would just like some elaboration on your perception of where the larger community sits on this question of seniors. After all, we are all going to become seniors, so do you find there is a lot of support for programs for seniors among the less elderly sectors of the population? What are you doing to encourage the reception and to make sure that the support exists for these programs?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I think communities out there are very receptive to having services for seniors, because everybody either knows he is going to become a senior or else has a family member. There still is, unfortunately, a long way to go in explaining what the various needs are.
I talked to Ms McLeod a little bit with the last question about the problems with the rural community and an urban community. How we deliver services in a rural community is going to be totally different than the way we provide services in an urban community. That is just a given fact because of the distances. You will have a senior living way out somewhere, and it might take two hours to go to that one senior and there is not another senior for another two-hour drive.
We have to look at ways of dealing with these problems for seniors living in a rural community, especially when it comes to winter. In Canada the rural community is at another disadvantage because of the snow and the storms that we face. You cannot send a volunteer or a homemaker into a community in a storm. It just does not work. So we have to look at alternative ways of delivering services. What some communities do is bring seniors in from the rural community in the wintertime just for a short couple of months. They actually stay in a seniors' residence just for the winter months, until they can get back into their own home setting. Then the other services pick up and move on into place. This seems to work well for some seniors who still want to maintain a very independent lifestyle when the weather is a lot easier for people to move around.
The delivering of meals perhaps to an individual far out sometimes cannot be done. But what can be done is to provide frozen meals so that they can heat up the meals. That is done in some communities as well. Also homemakers are able to go in and cook the meals for them rather than the meals having to be delivered, because again, if it is one meal going into a very far outlying area, it is hard to get volunteers to drive for two hours to deliver it. But yes, there is still a lot of education to be done.
Mr G. Wilson: Could I just ask a brief follow-up to that about the Good Neighbours program and whether you have had much time for response to that yet to see whether it is actually working? The way you put in your report, it seems like a suggestion about the things that can be done by neighbours, shovelling of walks, and bank tellers taking a little extra time to explain, things like that. Are you getting any response to whether that is actually working?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes. It really does work well when people understand that somebody next door needs a little assistance or a senior perhaps cannot reach up high to get something off a shelf. Sometimes it is just a lack of understanding. The Good Neighbours program does go into that education field where it certainly expands people's understanding and knowledge of needs for seniors.
Ms Haslam: As a matter of fact, rural was what I was going to ask you about. I wanted to know what kind of approaches we should be taking in this area and l appreciate all those answers, because most of us have a percentage of our ridings being rural. I would like to go on to another comment or question.
In your opening statement on page 7, number six was "sponsor research into matters affecting senior citizens." I was interested in research because I come from a library background, and I wanted to know how research could further your long-range goals for senior services. How do you use that research? If there is time, I have another question.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am going to respond very quickly and then I am going to let either Mr Adams or the deputy respond. I see research as being needed right now. Mr Wilson is concerned about natives. We have to have a better understanding of how we can deliver culturally sensitive programs to our native community. I would also like to look at some research into the multicultural aspect of assisting in our office, going to our main line ministries, for instance, the ministries of Community and Social Services, Health and Housing, to have a better understanding of the cultural differences and needs of the various multicultural communities. Perhaps either Mr Adams or Mr Norberg would like to respond as well.
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Mr Adams: We have a modest fund of several hundred thousand dollars that we notionally set aside at the beginning of a year. If appropriate opportunities come along that certainly are of the right priority, then we will give out money towards the research to be conducted. We have some under way right now. For instance, we have the development of an elder-abuse survey, which is being done for the Advocacy Centre for the Elderly. They are actually carrying on --
Ms Haslam: I just want to interrupt you. My next question -- and this possibly is the answer to my question -- was in the estimates book on page 9, where it says "sponsoring/promoting applied research on emerging trends and issues affecting seniors." Is that what you are listing with me right now?
Mr Norberg: Yes. We would be happy to table this list.
Ms Haslam: That would be fine if you would table that list. I would also like to look at the point above it where part of the corporate services was "identifying and monitoring emerging public issues of concern to seniors." I wondered what type of issues you were working on, and how that was handled? That is under corporate services, page 9 in your estimates book.
Mr Adams: I think that will be apparent when we give you the list.
Ms Haslam: Is that the same?
Mr Adams: No. Actually we do not undertake research in every emerging issue, but we monitor it as it is identified. I was speaking yesterday, for instance, about driver licensing. There is increasing sensitivity on the 80-year-olds, so we have become involved in that. We try to be responsive to what is of concern to seniors. First we monitor and then we get into it.
Ms Haslam: But it is not done as a project per se.
Mr Adams: To the policy people it is a project. We assign policy people to follow up on things, so there is an accountability for it. It is not a very ad hoc sort of a thing. We do identify things that are emerging. We do assign responsibility and then, when it seems appropriate, we try to move forward to something more specific than that.
Ms Haslam: I will save my other question for this afternoon.
Mr B. Ward: I would like to refocus on the volunteer component.
Ms Haslam: Oh, there goes my question.
Mr B. Ward: I am not sure what your question was.
Ms Haslam: No, go ahead.
Mr B. Ward: The volunteer component of seniors: My previous questioning centred around primarily getting young people involved as volunteers. I would like to focus on the senior component now of volunteers.
In my opinion, they are an untapped resource that this province could utilize to a greater degree. It is unfortunate, but some people feel that simply putting seniors in a home and closing the door and forgetting about them is the solution. I suggest that, with the wealth of experience seniors have, what they have experienced in their life, we should be utilizing the talents that they have to offer and ensuring that the opportunities are there for seniors to continue to contribute to the quality of life in our communities.
I was just wondering if you have any thoughts, as far as your ministry is concerned, on how we can better utilize seniors. If they are willing, as a large percentage are, they still want to contribute to the community, and we should be encouraging that aspect of volunteerism to continue and to be expanded in our community. In your capacity as minister, has your ministry any plans or any programs or any thoughts on how we can continue to encourage and tap in to this resource that at times appears to be neglected?
Hon Ms Ziemba: That is a very good point. Seniors are now being used in some day care centres and in schools and certainly in the school system to help in literacy programs, just listening to children read, and also in an historical way, to recount stories and to tell what their past experiences are. But seniors can also be used in a multitude of ways to help other seniors, and we found in our own agency that the people who came out and responded to our call for assistance in providing the volunteer services were people who were seniors.
In fact, not to stray too far away from the topic, we actually had seniors who were 89 and they have now reached 90, I am told by my former staff, who are still volunteering and who can probably still outrun some of the younger folks that come in to help and assist. They deliver Meals on Wheels, so it is not like they just sit back and do passive roles. They are out there and playing a leadership role in the community.
As you mentioned, seniors have a wealth of information, talent and resource and should be used in that capacity. We use them in our own ministry on the advisory council. The Toronto Mayor's Committee on Aging has a number of seniors, and I think other forms of government have as well. I think we should look at that when we set out people who are on boards and commissions. They do have not only the time, but the past experience to bring to us help and assistance in the programs that we are trying to deliver and in assisting us to provide future programs. I thank you for that question because I think it does relate to how we should be looking at our society.
I think earlier yesterday somebody mentioned the cultural differences of North American society versus some of the European and Asian communities where people actually -- and our own native community does this -- look at the seniors as being the people to hand down the cultural traditions, to lend a listening ear and to actually be the wise ones in the community. People go to them for help and assistance in planning their future and the community's future. We should start to look more at that, not necessarily the senators, though.
The Vice-Chair: Two minutes left. The next person on the list is Mr Perruzza.
Mr Perruzza: I do have a question for the minister and I would like to get on the rotation later this afternoon. Maybe I can be first, because the question is going to be rather lengthy. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Madam Chair. We were faced with a procedural crisis and, once again, you comported yourself in an exemplary manner, and I think that that should be recognized and stated for the record.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Mr Perruzza, for your comments. We will be adjourning now, and when we come back at 2 o'clock, we will start with the PC in rotation, 15 minutes each. The clerk has done a very efficient job. You will find, if we rotate that last hour, 15 minutes each, each caucus will have had equal and fair time with their questions today. So we are going to start with Mr Jackson and rotate through and we will finish with him. He will have caught up and you will each have had one whole hour.
Mr B. Ward: Mr Jackson gets to wrap up?
The Vice-Chair: No, the minister may even get a couple of moments to wrap up at the end of the afternoon. Thank you. We will see you at two o'clock.
The committee recessed at 1209.
AFTERNOON SITTING
The committee resumed at 1405.
OFFICE FOR SENIOR CITIZENS' AFFAIRS
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much for being prompt, ladies and gentlemen. The time is 2:05, and we have one hour left in the estimates of the minister responsible for senior citizens' affairs. Mr Jackson from the Conservative caucus has the first 15-minute segment.
Mr Jackson: Minister, earlier I indicated how pleased I was that you were able to come to this committee and articulate in specific numbers the amount of money the Treasurer had allocated to you from the $700-million anti-inflation, job stimulation package; we understand that is an envelope of funds that goes to the Ministry of Citizenship to be subdivided between the offices for disabled persons and seniors vis-à-vis their access fund. Have you been able to determine how much of the $700 million will be devoted to the issues raised about the construction, retrofit, upgrade of existing or new retirement homes currently under the responsibility of the Ministry of Community and Social Services but for seniors? Have you been able to determine how much of those dollars are being committed in that area?
Hon Ms Ziemba: My understanding at the moment is that all the dollars have not been allocated. If you would like, I could find out if there is a definite figure to date. As future figures come in, we can certainly pass that on to your office. It is not a final --
Mr Jackson: I understand that. I had asked the Minister of Community and Social Services a similar question, and she said she was unaware of the total amount but there was some. I was hoping to get a refinement of how much was committed to the larger long-term care package and the capital works required to effect some growth and expansion. I shared with the minister at that time my concern that what few public utterances we have received in a long-term package -- there was no debating that immediate expansion was not on the horizon. There are projects that were approved by the former government, and we are trying to determine if they are going to proceed or not. That is why I asked that question.
If I could move into the area of multiculturalism, as it is one of the many areas of interest and responsibility for your many ministries, I guess my first question should really be: Do you support a bill of rights for residents of homes for the aged in this province?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes.
Mr Jackson: At the time, when we were pursuing this for nursing homes, I had asked that the bill of rights be published in several languages, because I recognize, as I know the minister does, that at age 82 a person is not comfortable learning a second language or a third language even if that is the official language of the country he is currently in. Even though I had asked it as a recommendation, the government said it would take it under advisement. Are you aware if the bill of rights is being produced in various languages? Would it be your intention to do this as well for homes for the aged with respect to any bill of rights that equally falls upon them?
Hon Ms Ziemba: In our ministry, whether it is Citizenship or the seniors' office, both areas, we do already translate various publications into many languages. I want to expand the group of languages we are using at present and also expand it to other areas, and help other ministries develop those translation services. If we can be of assistance to other ministries, we will certainly be advocating that.
Mr Jackson: Could you have your ministry or one of your ministries advise this committee if in fact the nursing home bill of rights is being produced in various languages for distribution? If it is not, you have already said you are undertaking to work towards that goal.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I have just asked my deputy minister. He said he will look into it, and we can come back to you with that answer. You have my assurance that if it is not being done at present, we will push to make sure it is being done.
Mr Jackson: Another multicultural issue, which is also a religious issue -- the minister and I have had a conversation personally on this, on how the two sometimes are not separate in this province. Is the minister aware that capital funds allocated for homes for the aged under provincial government programs have a specific restrictive proviso which says if you have a faith community, which is also a multicultural community, wishing to build a facility for its elderly, that funding is not available for the construction of any multipurpose room that includes a chapel? I consider this a sensitive issue but I also consider it a rights issue, for the freedom of the elderly to express their faith, especially in their residence, because they are not portable.
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Could you investigate this, and could you please give us a sense of your commitment to ensure that regulations which do exist now which work against that be stricken, and that we have a more open attitude to respect the faith commitments of our elderly population in this province?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, as you alluded to in our previous conversation, we have to become more culturally sensitive not only to our seniors but to all people in our community, and we certainly will be investigating that. We do have on our advisory council an interfaith committee which will be asked to see how we can respond to other ministries along these particular cultural lines.
Mr Jackson: This is a very specific example, in that there are not many expansion dollars available for capital but this clearly is a prerequisite that I hope we would be able to strike fairly soon, because there are some projects, to my knowledge, in the approval stages now.
You have stated in clearer terms than your colleague the Minister of Community and Social Services about the potential for expansion of the integrated homemaker program as it relates to your election promise. I appreciate the added clarity you bring to that.
However, I wish to pursue a series of questions that deal with the planning associated with expanding that service. In particular, I am concerned about the incredible inequity that exists between -- this is predominantly a job ghetto for women; it is consistently at or below minimum wage rates; high turnover -- You are very familiar with the issue. Recently, in a social development committee report, we have come to refer to this as the "third tier," the lowest tier. It is not just government workers and non-government workers; we now have a third tier of worker in this province.
It is obvious that we have two challenges: to increase the pay rates for the thousands of women in this province who are currently providing homemaker services, but then we also have the challenge of expanding the total number of workers.
Your government announced recently $100 million for pay equity enhancements, bump funding, plus $30 million which went to half the day care workers in this province. Of the $100 million, how much is going to be earmarked for the integrated homemaker program? Because they have been lined up asking very legitimate questions about pay equity support.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I could check into the actual dollars for you. I do not have that sitting here, but we can come back to it. I have to explain to you that the issue is a lot broader than just salaries, because of the benefits and also the security of the job and the fact that it is part-time work, not full-time, in most cases, which adds a further burden to the poverty of women.
Mr Jackson: As you would be aware, the previous government sustained a considerable amount of pressure and we were looking at major collapses of programs and deficits. The minister of the day, Mr Sweeney, went to cabinet and was able to secure additional funds on an emergency basis for bump funding.
Your government has chosen to suggest it is going to spread a certain amount of money over a certain number of groups. Those in the community working with the elderly are particularly vulnerable because of its heavy reliance on the volunteer sector. I am trying to get a sense of who is pushing to ensure that they get equitable treatment. We know the non-profit sector of day care workers has been extremely effective in getting the attention of the government. Your own Premier has reinforced that in his public statements. Nowhere have we seen a public enunciation of the support for this particular group of individual women who are serving the needs of the elderly. I am turning to you again to ask when we can anticipate an answer to that question.
I might say that the reason the Red Cross and the Victorian Order of Nurses and others are not publicly complaining is because they are so sensitive to government grants. They are almost biting the hand that feeds them. They are more vulnerable than, say, day care workers, who are at arm's length from the government, are involved in co-payment, and who are publicly articulating their demands to the government in the media. But this sector does not. It makes them a little more vulnerable in terms of getting the ear and the attention of the government, because they are totally grant-sensitive. That is an observation.
Hon Ms Ziemba: That is a good observation. You probably remember that last spring I was involved in participation in the rally outside of Queen's Park by the VON and visiting homemakers and Red Cross workers. It was the first time this sector had become as vocal as it had. It was because they were pushed to the very last degree and had no other alternative. And I think they will continue to be vocal. They have had conferences and they have been working towards learning how to lobby the government. I have been involved in that process and will continue to be so. You have my assurance that I will speak up for this group which, unfortunately, has not had as organized a pressure as some other groups.
Mr Jackson: Final question, if my time permits me --
The Vice-Chair: Three minutes.
Mr Jackson: The other side of this coin is the expansion and where we will get the personnel. The truth is that we have identified weaknesses in this province for human resources planning in the health and expanded social services fields. The graduates for early childhood education workers, we understand, numbered fewer than 100 in this province last year. Where can we look to in this government, if not to you, for some human resources planning? If you expand, where are you going to find these people? What is the training available? Is there any planning at all in this area?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Part of the problem with the training is that there were not in previous times -- I am trying not to be partisan, on behalf of Mr Sweeney -- I am sorry. Either I have graduated you or demoted you, I do not know which. I did not mean to do that. My apologies.
Mr Curling: Very generous.
Mr Mahoney: I have been called worse.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am completely off track. Sorry, Mr Jackson. My apologies again.
In the past, unfortunately, there have not been programs at community colleges that have been sustained for great lengths of time in the training of homemakers. There have been programs that have come and then the federal government has cut back and nobody else has stepped in to carry the ball. The few programs that do come are short and are not as encompassing, so we have to look at that.
We are also in our particular ministry looking at access to professions and trades, which means that people who come from other countries, as you are well aware, who have the background and are equipped to do the work would have the access into the professions and be able to start to fulfil their professional life in this country. That is one aspect of that, but we certainly have to continue to work with the Ministry of Colleges and Universities to make sure that the various programs will be in place in colleges to train the various professionals. I have to add that there are people out there who do have the skills; they just have not had the opportunity to work, and we need to define --
Mr Jackson: You must be aware --
The Vice-Chair: We are out of time. I am sorry to interrupt, Mr Jackson, but you know we are pressured for time this afternoon.
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Mr B. Ward: I would like to ask a question in an area that has been touched on to a degree during our discussion today and yesterday, and that deals with the ethnocultural seniors and the whole scenario that occurs around that specific seniors issue. I think this is an area that has been neglected to a degree -- I should not say neglected, but has not been given the priority in the past that perhaps it should have. I can recall, I guess, that in my community funding was allocated for a seniors' counsellor through our Ethnoculturelfest. I think that was an initiative from our government, but it probably was examined and worked on under the previous government.
I think there is a problem in regard to the concerns of ethnic seniors that perhaps in the big picture this does not have the focus that it should, because their problems are quite unique. For whatever reasons, they may not understand how our political system works, how our programs are made available to meet the needs of seniors. I noticed in the statement that you presented to this committee that ethnocultural seniors were touched on. In fact you said, "The special needs of ethnocultural seniors must be taken into consideration when planning for the future."
My question, and I hope your reply will centre around that issue specifically, is how do we plan on dealing with the issue of ethnocultural seniors in the future? Is the funding that is allocated through your ministry, I believe, for a seniors' counsellor at our Ethnoculturelfest in Brantford part and parcel of the overall plan to deal with the issue of ethnocultural seniors in this province? I am wondering if you could comment in your capacity as minister.
Hon Ms Ziemba: There are many areas where we have to really broaden our expanse when we deal with the various multicultural, multi-ethnic communities that are in Ontario. One, we need to expand our cultural interpretations to make sure that services are in place, unfortunately not all over Ontario, so seniors or any group can have access to somebody who can culturally explain the services that we have in Ontario, but also on the other hand, explain to the service-provider the cultural needs and the ethnic needs of those particular individuals.
We also, and this has really fallen behind, must be able to deliver. The mainstream agencies have to have a better understanding if they are to deliver services or have assistance in delivering services. For instance, Meals on Wheels should be adopted to specific ethnocultural groups, and that unfortunately has not been done in very many locations. In some locations it is. The Jewish community has had and continues to have a wonderful service in delivering kosher Meals on Wheels. They have a way of delivering those services. We have to broaden that.
There have been pilot projects done in certain communities. The Italian community has started to do a very small meal run in the Italian community from an Italian nursing home. But we also have to make sure that nursing homes and homes for the aged also have the various bed allocations so that people can receive their services in their culture and in their ethnic diversity.
There is one interesting program in Metro homes for the aged that has to be expanded using volunteers. People volunteer to go in and speak the language to people who are staying in residence. The Japanese community actually provides voluntarily meals to the Japanese patients who are living in one of the Metro homes for the aged.
All those things have to be expanded and developed and moved on to. As our communities change and our society changes, we have to keep building up those various services in those communities. We have to be abreast and on top of which communities are now entering into our society and who are the new groups, because the waves just keep changing. Obviously the demographics change with that too. People become older and we have to start addressing that.
There are many programs that really have to be developed and expanded, and we are hoping to address that in the long-term care reform package that we have started to look at and change the perspective. The other side does not like to hear this, but one of the things that was of grave concern when I was working in the field and striving for change was that the multicultural and the multi-ethnic communities had not been addressed. There was one phrase that was mentioned and it was left all open to not be addressed in a specific way and targeted, and we really have to expand those programs.
Ms Haslam: I have a couple of questions and a couple of comments. I would like to go quickly back to Wheels to Meals. Is there any sort of funding now in the ministry to help Wheels to Meals as a program?
Hon Ms Ziemba: In the Ministry of Community and Social Services there is a little pilot project with funding allocated to that program. But most of the agencies do have to rely on other ways of funding that program so, for instance, the United Way might be one way that an agency might go to get funding for a specific program. But the Ministry of Community and Social Services might not be funding them.
Ms Haslam: The reason I asked again is because the Wheels to Meals program is a little different than getting in the car and delivering meals. It means that you must have facilities with kitchens. Sometimes that is a church, and sometimes an old school. But in order to access those facilities funding is necessary, or it has to be a church organization that does it.
That brings me back to volunteers and another comment. I am passing a couple of these comments on because they come to me and I feel that sharing them with you will help you in your ministry. We have talked a dozen times about the type of volunteer programs that we have in place. The comment came to me that there would be more volunteers if there was some way of helping people with some of the finances.
We talk about getting seniors involved in volunteering, but some of those seniors cannot afford the gas, cannot afford the transportation to come and do the volunteer work or cannot supply some of those things. I am not saying you give them a chit for a cab, but there has got to be funding somewhere along the line so that these volunteers can be more involved. If they are volunteering their time and their efforts, I am wondering if something could be brought in where they could be -- not just an award for volunteer of the year, but little things, like paying for the bus fare or for mileage, paying for the gas, or something along that line.
It was brought up to me that there are volunteers out there that do a wonderful job, but there could be more, especially in the seniors area. We could involve the seniors more as volunteers if we could help fund them just a bit. Here we are talking about funding and poverty and seniors, and they were asking them to come and volunteer their time and not help them with some of that funding.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I just want to interrupt at this point, but there are actually means and ways of doing that. Some agencies have a fund where they reimburse a senior for the gas allowance or, if there is a transit system, they will actually give them a token or a ticket for that system. But there is another way and that is by adding up the amount of time or hours that the volunteer might have spent driving and then reimbursing them by giving them a tax credit, as a donation where they put the money and get back a tax credit donation. That does help.
But you are right, especially with the rising cost of gas and unfortunately the rising cost of insurance for cars in the last several years. That has made it very difficult for seniors to want to use their vehicles in case they might have a car accident and the insurance rates would go high again. So actually that is a consideration.
Ms Haslam: Tax credit was the other one that was mentioned to me. Another comment that I would like to make is that I notice on page 19 of your opening address, you said under "Providing Information and Referral Services" that your central information referral services had just undergone a major expansion. I am pleased to see that. Did this senior citizens' guide to services and programs in Ontario come from your central information and referral service?
Hon Ms Ziemba: That is the same unit. There were on the desk little brochures.
Ms Haslam: I took every one of them.
The Vice-Chair: I wondered where the pile went.
Ms Haslam: No, I meant I took a sample of every one of them.
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Hon Ms Ziemba: They will be distributed to banks and to stores and to various agencies and libraries so that people will have the telephone number to phone the toll-free number. Yes, the information did come from --
Ms Haslam: This is the brochure then of which a million copies are now being distributed through the 12,000 outlets and libraries?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, there is another one out there somewhere. That is the million that will give the phone numbers so that people will know the toll-free number to phone for their information.
Ms Haslam: Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: You are down to the last five minutes of your caucus, and Mr Wilson also has a question.
Ms Haslam: Okay, I will talk fast again. The reason I bring this up is because I find it a very, very useful tool. It is something that I am doing in my own riding and I appreciate the fact that it is out. I am passing it on so that you will know that we like that in our riding and will continue it. If Mr Wilson wants to have a question, that is fine and, if possible then, I have one more when Mr Wilson is done with his time.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Wilson. Four minutes.
Mr G. Wilson: There are a lot of things we have been discussing here, I think, that can be covered with neglected seniors. An element that is a fairly recent phenomenon, and is identified as such, is elder abuse that gets worse than neglect in the form of psychological or even physical abuse. I was wondering whether it is true that this is a recently identified phenomenon, and what is the extent of it and what is the ministry able to do about it?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am sorry, could you just backtrack a little bit. I was reading something.
Mr G. Wilson: That is okay.
The Vice-Chair: It is a question of elder abuse.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Oh, yes.
Mr G. Wilson: The concentration of it from neglect, which is something we have almost come to expect, but the idea of physical abuse and/or financial and psychological.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Right. There are many forms of abuse that you have just mentioned and we helped sponsor a conference so that care providers and people working the field would have a forum to be able to come together to discuss the issues and learn from each other.
I spoke at that conference about the advocacy commission that we are instituting and said we will be bringing forth this legislation. I do have some information that I can pass on to you. The advocacy commission is going to play a very vital role in elder abuse or any vulnerable-adult abuse that would be prevalent in our society. I am really encouraged that we could have moved so quickly from the December announcement to being able to bring in that legislation in April, and setting up that commission and working quite quickly towards making sure that we do have advocates who will not only be able to explain to vulnerable adults their rights, but also be able to work on a case-management level and also to try to overcome the systemic barriers that exist for our vulnerable adults. We are very pleased to be able to do that.
There is also the research money that has been allocated to the Advocacy Centre for the Elderly, ACE, to help them develop a manual that will help people who work in the field and to help other people, for instance, the police forces, to understand what elder abuse is, what to look for and how to handle it when they do discover that it is happening in our society.
Mr Curling: I want to say to the minister, just in a brief statement contrary to what Mr Ward, the honourable gentleman over on the other side there, stated, that maybe there was not a priority on the part of the previous government for seniors, the visible minority, the cultural group. They were and continue to be as a matter of fact a priority in the mind of the Liberal Party and our caucus. I read in quite some detail your opening remarks too, and it is not short of the things we also recognize.
One of the problems we do have when new governments come in is to just restate the same statistics over and over again, sometimes delaying the process of action. I know that you are a woman of action. I just want to tell you one action part of it when it comes to the visible minority group, especially in my riding in Scarborough North. In 1988, over 14,000 Chinese moved into that riding. One year along and they are very much active in getting a senior citizens home going. They have dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's and got all of the politicians to speak at all of their lovely dinners and they have made statements.
What I would like to see, Minister, is what your government is doing. First, I wish to say that I did not see any programs or any strategies laid out in your opening remarks. I would like to know what is it that your government and you as the minister are doing to work with the municipality in getting the zoning and getting things moving along so that especially the groups, the Chinese seniors there in my riding, can get their work done and raise a tremendous amount of money, as you talk about the tremendous amount of volunteers working to get the program moving before these people who are in their senior age die.
Hon Ms Ziemba: We shared a very enjoyable evening the other night at a wonderful dinner. Yes, it was very delicious. I understand in speaking to the municipalities that they are moving very quickly to change the zoning regulations, and the assurance that evening from a discussion that I had with the municipalities was that they were moving. If they do not, I certainly will talk to them again, but apparently that is all under control and fine.
Mr Curling: I am gathering that I do have your assurance in this, so you and I will work very closely together to get this done.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Of course, Mr Curling, we always do.
Mr Mahoney: Just as a follow-up, perhaps a supplementary to that, we discussed the Association of Municipalities of Ontario recommendations at the beginning of this discussion on your estimates and I do not know that I got a clear decision as to whether or not you were accepting AMO's recommendation to establish a provincial-municipal working group. Did you agree with AMO that you would indeed do that?
Hon Ms Ziemba: We are still in discussion with AMO. We have had several meetings and we have been sitting and having a dialogue with them. Various ministries have responded to AMO's concerns, and we have all sat down and we are going to continue that dialogue. It is a very important dialogue and we will continue to work because, as I said yesterday, it is not a partnership, but we have to work as a team to be able to make sure that we deliver the services in our municipalities together.
Mr Mahoney: Whether we call it a partnership or a team to me is academic. The key is to the responsibility of municipalities. Having spent close to 10 years on a regional and a local council along with Mrs Marland, she and I both know the significance of having the service delivery sector, which the municipalities are very much a part of, active. I would encourage you -- as a matter of fact as a former member of the AMO board -- to establish such a working group.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I take your recommendation. Thank you very much for sharing it with me.
Mr Mahoney: I would like to get into the drug issue. Before I do that, you also said this morning that there were 85 recommendations from the coroner's jury that we were discussing and that you have implemented a number of those. I do not want you to list what you have implemented today, but would ask if you or your staff could provide us with a list in writing, which of those 85 recommendations have been implemented and the status of the balance, whether they have been looked at, whether they have been rejected or whatever.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, certainly.
Mr Mahoney: I would appreciate that. I assume other members of the committee would be interested in that.
The Vice-Chair: I am sure all the committee would appreciate it.
Mr Mahoney: The report of the Pharmaceutical Inquiry of Ontario opens up in its executive summary, Minister, by making a very broad-brush statement that: "Ontarians generally receive excellent treatment involving prescription drugs. For the most part pharmaceutical products are safe, effective and appropriately prescribed, dispensed and used." Do you agree with that statement?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I am not a pharmacist and I would not want to pretend that I am; nor am I a doctor nor would I want to pretend that I am. But under --
Mr Curling: You are a politician so you can be all of those things.
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Hon Ms Ziemba: No, I could not. But in my previous work -- it is not necessarily that it is the fault of the pharmacy that has promoted and has the drug, and it is not necessarily the fault of the doctor nor of the senior who takes the drug, but it can be the fault of non-communication, the link between the patient, the doctor, the hospital, the previous medication.
It is a very broad statement and I am sure that when they do their research, they intend that the prescription and the drugs they are making are for the benefit -- but unfortunately sometimes we do not have the systems in place.
Mr Mahoney: I did not ask the question and I am not asking the question in any attempt to trap you into giving an answer that might embarrass you with another group. What I am getting at is that there is a perception out there, and you hear it all the time, that seniors are overprescribed medication by their physicians, that there is improper use and that they do not follow directions, that the directions are not clear on the dispenser, perhaps, that they get.
Their eye drops: They have the new one where you just turn a click and it shows you which number it is, and therefore you look and you know that if it is on number two, you are supposed to take two drops in each eye at that time of the day, whatever. They have come up with some inventive solutions to this; but there is a perception -- in our business, perception tends to be reality, and there is a perception -- I want to know if you agree that there is a perception, if you agree with the perception being reality, and what we can do to clarify it if indeed it is not reality.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I think the perception is there and I think it is based on some reality, as you say. We all have examples. I could give you 100 examples of people, although you would probably not want to hear them today, whether they are seniors or others who have gone to one particular doctor and then have gone to another doctor -- specialists -- and then have gone to a third specialist. Unfortunately, the three specialists are not discussing what medications have been prescribed and they do not, obviously, sometimes coincide with each other and there is an adverse effect on the patient then.
So yes, the perception can be there and yes, it can be based on some reality as all perceptions can be, and obviously there are problems. We have to address those problems and I know that the Minister of Health is looking into the aspects of how we could address the problems in taking a more holistic approach to dealing with patients and their prescriptions.
Mr Mahoney: I take it is a health issue, but with respect I think it is very much a seniors' issue because they are the ones who are at risk in improperly taking the medication. There may be reasons why: Perhaps their vision is impaired or whatever the situation, so I think it is very much a seniors' issue.
Hon Ms Ziemba: It is a people issue too because I have had it happen to me.
Mr Mahoney: Oh yes, I agree it is a people issue, but we are in the context of your responsibilities and mine as critic for the Liberal Party. I am asking it on behalf of seniors.
I would like to know your government's position or yours as minister on the generic drug issue, with regard to the difficulties of pharmaceutical manufacturers who spend money on research and development and then their patent runs out; on the other hand, the problem of seniors having to pay an exorbitant amount for brand-name drugs when they can get an equally effective generic drug that will solve the same problem. What is your view on whether the government should be encouraging generic drugs? Should we be investing in research and development along with the pharmaceutical firms? Where do you stand on that whole issue?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I believe generic drugs have a place in our society.
Mr Mahoney: What about government-prescribed drugs where there is no substitution allowed, and yet there might be a generic drug that would be available at a substantially lower price. Are you prepared to address that kind of an issue?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Personally I believe that if there is a product to serve somebody and it does the job equally well, I would think that we would want to make sure that product was used, if it saves people money. Do you want me to expand on that?
Mr Mahoney: Just one final one and then maybe there will be time for my colleague.
The Vice-Chair: Three minutes.
Mr Mahoney: All right, good. The coroner's report that we were referring to -- I keep coming back to that because it is a drug-related issue in many ways -- recommended that medication for adults living in boarding homes be re-evaluated at least once a year. I know it is one of the 85 and I have asked for your total position on that, but on that specific issue, have you started implementation planning on that recommendation yet, or do you intend to?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I do intend to, and certainly I am looking at those particular concerns and have spoken to the Minister of Health and will continue to do so.
The part that I had wanted to expand on, and I did not, was that there are times when we have to stop looking at the use of drugs, in particular medications that are used as Valium would be, as antidepressants. I am sorry. This business of being short is always a difficulty.
Mr Mahoney: I thought it was that I made you relax.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Maybe that is it. Your pleasant smile and Mr Curling and the whole bit, and it is after six hours --
Mr Mahoney: It is just a kinder, gentler place, is it not?
Hon Ms Ziemba: That is it. I am told not to encourage you. But there I was, just enjoying myself so much and got too relaxed.
We have to look at providing services so that when people are depressed, they have older adult centres they can attend, that there are friendly visiting services, that there are many things rather than just giving somebody a prescription that would supposedly help and assist them with depression, but usually causes other medical problems. I hope we continue to look at those other ways of addressing those problems, so that we are not an overmedicated society, as I feel that everybody in this room would probably agree we have started to become.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Daigeler, do you have a two-minute question and answer?
Mr Daigeler: We have been talking about the Lowy inquiry and I think you have generally indicated that you are looking at it together with the Minister of Health. I would like to hear a little bit more specifically, have you established any kind of time frame yet in which you are going to respond to the recommendations, or what are your plans regarding this report?
Hon Ms Ziemba: My plans are that we will continue to work and hope that we can implement some of the decisions that came out of that. I cannot give you a specific time at this exact moment. I wish I could, but I cannot. But certainly, as soon as we have come to any arrangement or agreement where we want to proceed with that, I will let your office know so that you can be aware of that decision, and all of the other people.
Mr Daigeler: Is this a priority for your ministry at the present time?
Hon Ms Ziemba: It is one of my many priorities. I cannot say it is a priority, because I have to then say housing is a priority, long-term care is a priority, and advocacy. It is a big package of many priorities.
Mr Daigeler: If I may suggest, I think you will have to establish some priorities, and I think the public and we as opposition will expect you to choose certain items, because you cannot concentrate on all of them all together. We certainly look forward to that, as for example, the Minister of the Environment clearly has indicated certain areas as her preference at this point, and I think your ministry will have to do that as well.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Mr Daigeler.
Mr Mahoney: Madam Chairman, since this is the last time our caucus will have an opportunity to question the minister, might I just take 30 seconds to thank her for her efforts in dealing with some of our tantrums and our questions. I appreciate your frankness and I think you did a good job.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Well, thank you very much, and I have enjoyed this; actually, I did get relaxed.
Mr Mahoney: That does not mean I am going to continue to be nice, but thank you very much.
Ms Haslam: We did not think so.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Oh, I think you always will.
Mr Mahoney: No, do not get carried away.
Mr Curling: It was not exactly relaxing when I was in estimates, I tell you.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Is that right?
Mr Curling: No.
Hon Ms Ziemba: No, I think it was just a nice group of people.
The Vice-Chair: We will send the Hansard to the Premier.
Mr Mahoney: Do not bother.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will use that in my next leaflet.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Jackson, the last 15 minutes; it is ten to three.
Mr Jackson: I want to thank staff for bringing me the list of approvals under the access fund and sharing that with the committee. Could I get the list of those applications that were rejected?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Yes, certainly, and I thought we had said that we were going to do that, and perhaps I misunderstood.
Mr Jackson: Okay, that is fine. I just wanted to put it on the record. That is all.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Oh, I am sorry. We already have it.
Mr Jackson: All right.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Efficient group. I just realized it was here.
Mr Jackson: That can be handed to me. Perhaps I could proceed with some questions?
Hon Ms Ziemba: Sure.
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Mr Jackson: The Advocacy Centre for the Elderly has been expressing concern for a standardized contract, an admissions contract for nursing homes in this province. It is my understanding that your director of residential services branch, Geoff Quirt, has had a copy of a recommended standardized contract, as has been suggested by the Advocacy Centre for the Elderly, in his possession since May 1990. I wondered if you have been briefed on this subject, or if you can share with us what your plans are to proceed with that?
Hon Ms Ziemba: I have not been briefed formally by my ministry staff, but I must admit that I have been speaking to Judith Wah previously on this particular issue, and I am glad that you have raised it today. I think it is a concern that we have to proceed with and thank you for raising that with me.
Mr Jackson: Is the Lightman commission also looking at standardized admission contracts and a clear understanding for families that do the admissions with the institutions, with respect to understanding what the resident's rights will be with respect to restraint, discharge policies, medication, monthly co-payments, and various procedures which should not become a surprise when there is a crisis, but rather an expectation for quality of life while they are living there?
Hon Ms Ziemba: The Lightman commission is really looking into the unregulated homes. Now our advocacy commission that I keep referring to will have a rights advocate who will have the responsibility of making sure that these rights are enshrined, and will continue to work with people who are put into an institution, if that is the case, or into a private home, or carry on with the case management of the advocacy. If you would like, I do have some other information with me today that I can share and give to you after the meeting.
Mr Jackson: The point I am trying to stress is that I am very involved with this issue of rights bills. There is my own victims' bill of rights that I have been working on for three years in the Legislature. I did table a resolution, as I said, in the past, for extending a residents' bill of rights to all elderly citizens in this province that does not discriminate based on the type of accommodation they are in.
But I have a clear respect for the fact that a person does not know he has lost a right if he did not know he had a right to begin with, and it is embodied in a contractual form, in an admissions form which is signed, or when incapacities are there it is signed by the party representing them.
Generally a person goes into a home for the aged with all his faculties and he wishes to know, "What are my rights?" We just have a very disjointed lack of formality, and of time and patience taken to explain to them what their rights are. There may be an incident and all of sudden they are restrained, are bound to their beds. The family says, "Well, this is the first I've heard of it." This is the essence of what I am getting at. The fact that an advocate would then come in, in my view, is sort of after the fact.
The concept of empowerment flows from the notion that we share with seniors what their rights are up front, that they understand them and that therefore they can articulate them, and that they can reach out and know how to cry for help because they realize that something is wrong. I do not wish to diminish the need for an advocate, but advocates work hand-in-glove. They have to be flagged; they have to be called; they have to be told there is a problem.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I really thank you for your concern, because this is a major concern, that people do not understand their rights, and it is not being explained properly. The rights advocate would obviously do that prior to a situation, so that people would have a better understanding, and also go in when somebody is being challenged with his mental capacity and try to determine whether that is really a legitimate action that is being taken. If guardianship is being suggested, a rights advocate will go in and explain to a person what his rights are, and see if he really, truly understands what is happening to him at the time. So this is a very important commission.
I am really pleased that you have worked so hard in the past, and I hope that you can share your work that you have done with us, because it certainly is of great importance to all of us.
Mr Jackson: We do operate an advocacy program and we have acted in the capacity of a public trustee where no next of kin exists, but that is a service and a training which we have developed through our own constituency office.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Congratulations.
Mr Jackson: Can I move into the issue of code 1 geriatric transfers in this province? I was advised about three months ago that the Ministry of Health had just undertaken a study to determine that the real costs of code 1 geriatric transfers for ambulances in this province was really around about $180, and that there was some dialogue within the Ministry of Health to increase the user fee or the co-payment -- or whatever comfortable language we use to describe a user fee -- for these geriatric transfers.
When I got this information I knew the government would not be willing to talk about it because it is not ready to talk about it, and I respect that. But I did undertake a study of jurisdictions across Canada and in the United States to determine what would be a safer, more efficient and less costly system of transferring seniors in this province. I wonder to what extent you are monitoring this, or the Minister of Health has advised you that there is inordinate pressure on geriatric transfers in this province.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I keep forgetting. Thank you for sharing that with me and we will continue to monitor it, and again as you have indicated we are not ready to share that just at this particular moment, but I have interest in it and will continue to see how that progresses.
Mr Jackson: We are currently working on building a pilot project which we wish to present to the various ministries, using the basic models -- the best of the various models -- across North America. We are hopeful that you will somehow assist us in bringing this to the attention of the Minister of Health. It does have some implications to the Ontario Public Service Employees Union. My nervousness at this point is that OPSEU will not appreciate taking a portion of its current services at its hourly rate, using ambulance workers, and I do not want it to become a labour issue. I want it to become a very exciting opportunity for this province.
A small province like Alberta, just in the city of Calgary alone on a pilot project, saved $1.4 million in less than a year, so we are looking at substantive savings if we were just to operate an alternative service here in the city of Toronto.
As I develop the project I am hopeful that your government will approach it from its most important elements, improving the service to seniors, because as you know it is not uncommon for a geriatric transfer to have a two-hour wait to get your ambulance ride home. When response times and code 8s or 9s come in, there have been occasions when a senior has been left at a curbside while they race off to a serious traffic accident.
Seniors would be better served, the province would save money, and our hospitals would not be caught with the charge back. It is a complicated area but I really want to solicit your more than active support in terms of helping seniors with this. I am sure the government is open to saving money, but this is really an elderly issue. Some provinces charge $70 and $80 for a geriatric transfer. I do not wish Ontario or your government to be put in a position of raising that fee because its real cost is $180.
Hon Ms Ziemba: I will look forward to seeing your proposal.
Mr Jackson: Final question, if I have a moment.
The Vice-Chair: Five minutes.
Mr Jackson: The minister indicated some interest in this home sharing program from the Ministry of Housing which specifically assists senior citizens to share their home so they do not lose it, and so they have some companionship. Have you had an opportunity to examine that, as you said you were going to be able to do, hopefully soon? Have you been able to investigate the current position of the Minister of Housing, because we are advised that a letter has actually gone, that the program will not be continuing, by the Minister of Housing?
The Vice-Chair: We did log that with the Minister of Housing this morning and we received back the answer that they are still open to renegotiating the home sharing program and that they have not actually made the decision. They are just trying to see where they can find the allocation funds for that particular program.
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Mr Jackson: I need not stress to you the disruption in the lives of those people who have gone through an extensive screening and matching process to create a very comfortable relationship with home sharing, only to find that the government -- it is a unique program. It was so hard to get it to work that it would seem terrible to have it cut so quickly. I would really be asking for your active support and enjoining, as I wrote to you in my letter, your active support to the minister to place this as a priority program to be saved, because I know a lot of the ministers are under pressure to cut programs. It has not been stated but we know that the Treasurer has indicated, as he did to us, that he has put all the cabinet under pressure to look at creative ways of reducing costs as well.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Not necessarily. Just to expand a bit, the Treasurer has not asked us to cut programs. He has asked us to spend our money and allocate in a different way so that we can best provide the services without extra cost to the taxpayers of Ontario in a time of recession, and not to increase the deficit that, unfortunately, we have inherited.
Mr Jackson: Quickly, then, could I ask you about your favourite subject, Meals on Wheels? As I listen very carefully to the care-delivery network, there are some impediments to expansion in two areas: the volunteer pool, which we understand, but also the ability to cook, prepare and serve the meals, because some rely very heavily on hospitals. To the extent that Meals on Wheels can be expanded, to what extent are you discussing with the Minister of Health such basic issues as the abilities of hospitals to expand to meet that need? In many cases, that is where this is being performed.
Hon Ms Ziemba: The provincial organization of Meals on Wheels and also the Metro Toronto organization of Meals on Wheels have received funding to investigate the possibilities of alternative food sources and alternative ways of delivering Meals on Wheels. And as you have said, a good number of the meals do come from hospitals or from Metro homes for the aged. But there are other non-profit agencies already providing Meals on Wheels which want to continue to do so, because it helps their progress. For instance, the YMCA of Toronto provides Meals on Wheels to a number of agencies, and its program is helping people who do not fit into a job category and are being retrained and given life skills to have the opportunity to not only learn a new skill, that is, working in a cafeteria setting, but also it is a very worthwhile product they end up providing. So there are other ways of getting meals and that funding and that research is being done at the provincial level and the Metro level of those organizations. I know they are very close to coming to a completion of having a different way of delivering meals. One of the ways, also, is the frozen meal source.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Minister.
Mr Jackson: I would like to take a moment, as Mr Mahoney did, to simply thank the minister for coming. It is not easy being in the first round of estimates for a new government. Having had one opportunity to get to know you, I am delighted that we have been able to build on that relationship during estimates. I think the minister gets a sense that there is a very strong commitment on this side of the table for seniors, that our impatience to advocate for seniors is a shared impatience, and I look forward to working with you in the future.
Hon Ms Ziemba: Thank you very much. And thank you for your questions.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you.
Ms Haslam: I also, as I am the last, want to compliment the minister for appearing today. Thank you. I am really pleased you were able to come. But I would like to say thank you for the answers. I have the research initiatives answer. I have the answer to the question about the Are You Listening? book. I am so pleased to see it was less than a dollar a book to produce it and it is given out free, and also the good neighbour communities. To get this information back to us so quickly is really great.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much, Ms Haslam. Those answers will be part of the Hansard record, so everyone else will have access to them too. I would like to thank the committee members for their co-operation during these estimates, and also thank the minister and her staff. I think they have survived very well through their initiation to the storm.
The time has elapsed now for the estimates for the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs and --
Hon Ms Ziemba: Could I just make one point?
The Vice-Chair: You may, Minister. I was just about to call a vote, but go ahead.
Hon Ms Ziemba: All I wanted to say, and I will make it very brief, is that I want to congratulate you on chairing what turned out to be a bit of a difficult meeting this morning. You handled it very well. I also want to thank the committee members for their questions, because a lot of thought and a lot care obviously went into them. I do appreciate your concerns. I think, as we said at the very beginning, that this should be a non-partisan issue. We should be really looking after our seniors and making sure we all work together to provide those services. Thank you again for your patience and your kindness, and helping me relax, Mr Mahoney.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Minister. I am now going to call vote 3401.
Vote 3401 agreed to.
The Vice-Chair: Shall the estimates for the Office for Senior Citizens' Affairs be reported to the House?
Agreed to.
The Vice-Chair: We are going to recess for two or three minutes while we exchange the members and the ministers.
The committee recessed at 1507.
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MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES
The Chair: I would like to call to order the standing committee on estimates. Before us are the estimates of the Ministry of Mines, although its proper title is the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines. But for purposes of these estimates, not to sound confusing, we are dealing with the estimates of Mines within that portfolio.
As is the custom in standing orders, we will move in rotation, first hearing from the minister, the Honourable Gilles Pouliot, then the official opposition will be given up to half an hour, the third party will be given up to a half hour, and then we will revert back to the minister, who will be given up to half an hour to respond to that which had been said previously. If there are no questions, we will proceed. I would like to welcome the minister. We are in your hands.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Merci, Monsieur le Président. Thank you for your kind presentation.
I am very pleased to be here. There is a certain irony, for I recognize some of my friends and I am sure the process will allow me to make new friends. I sat where, for instance, my distinguished and close colleague sits. In terms of civility, I know I did excel at it and I would ask to receive the same treatment. I expect nothing less than what I dished out when I was with Her Majesty's loyal opposition and in 1985 with the third party. So I can look to a renewed commitment to civility, decorum and good manners. It is nice to be here.
As you are most aware, this is a unique ministry by virtue of its two mandates; one, for northern development and transportation, as well as the administration of mines and minerals development policy and legislation in the province.
The mines and minerals division works to sustain a vigorous mineral industry in Ontario through three major program areas, namely, mineral resources, mining lands and mineral development. As members of our party are aware, I worked at a mine site for 20 years. In 1964 I ventured into northwestern Manitoba from Montreal, and was allowed, given, offered the opportunity to work in Lynn Lake underground, and I did so for nine and a half years. I saved a few dollars, went back to Montreal, and between Montreal and New York City it actually took me three months to spend the money I had acquired by virtue of my efforts in mines.
I am not too sure, being a big spartan, frugal and from a very moderate background, if any of you can relate to the circumstances that brought me, in this case after Lynn Lake, to Manitouwadge, Ontario. It was already a sense of déjà vu. I worked at a mine site for 20 years, started as a mine helper, went on to become a utility helper, and after some 20 years achieved category 19 in our collective agreement, which said that I was a tradesman flotation operator. So when someone talks about the Ministry of Mines, after 20 years of service with Noranda Mines, I feel comfortable, and why not? After 20 years, it has to rub off --
Interjection.
Hon Mr Pouliot: I am being interrupted. My good friend usually provokes me and brings out the best in me, but maybe I already see myself under a state of siege. I need not worry; I know it will surface during question and answer period.
Because someone has written the famous words "an honest dollar for an honest day's work" -- in a safe environment was my credo -- I certainly concentrated more on the honest dollar than eight hours' work at a designated workplace.
Nous avons fait de grands progrès pour atteindre cet objectif. Naturellement, nous avons encore beaucoup de travail à accomplir. Je suis confiant --
Mrs Marland: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: I say this in love to the minister. No one enjoys this particular member's French more than I do, but we are at a disadvantage in committee without translation being available to us.
The Chair: Can I be advised by the minister of the format --
Mrs Marland: Do we have the statement? We have not had them from all the ministers. Minister, I apologize.
The Chair: Excuse me. Minister, could you please advise me of the format in which you are presenting your written statements today?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Well, 98% of it will be in English, for I am cognizant of the need to address in a language that is understood by all, but I also have a responsibility because of the contribution that Franco-Ontarians have made to this very industry en masse. I ask to be afforded the courtesy of a word or two, for in my other capacity I am also the minister responsible for francophone affairs.
The Chair: Thank you, Minister, but I did not ask you that question. I asked you what form your written statements take, because several ministers have attended with a French and an English version, and that has been most helpful to the committee. I simply wanted to know to what extent you directed your staff to present your written comments to the committee today.
Hon Mr Pouliot: It is in one sole format with, again, the odd sentence, very limited indeed, and I am repeating myself en français.
The Chair: If that is now an understanding for the committee, the obvious sensitivity and interest and support of the minister for the French language, I wish to share with you that the committee deeply appreciated that the other ministers have seen fit to ensure that we understood exactly the very important message they were bringing to us. If we can now proceed, we will allow the minister to present his report in the manner he sees fit.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Thank you very kindly. I should be so fortunate -- your point is well taken -- to receive compliments in many languages. The more the merrier.
Je suis confiant que ce gouvernement, par l'entremise du ministère du Développement du Nord et des Mines, du ministère du Travail et du ministère de l'Environnement, pour n'en nommer que trois, demeurera engagé à coopérer avec les syndicats, les compagnies, les prospecteurs indépendants, les explorateurs et tous les autres législateurs pour assurer un avenir stable et prospère aux gens qui travaillent dans le secteur minier de l'Ontario.
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This confidence is buoyed by the great respect I have for the people who work in this sector and understand the importance of mines and minerals in all our lives. That is why I am so pleased to have been entrusted with the responsibility of Minister of Mines in Premier Rae's government.
My basic policy thrust can be stated quite simply as to promote mining activity in Ontario in a fiscally and environmentally responsible manner. This does not represent a great departure from my predecessors' mandate. However, I do intend over the course of my term to emphasize the need to protect the environment from the negative impacts of mining, both by regulating the startup of new mines and by addressing the legacy of existing mine hazards. This is what the people of Ontario expect, this is what they deserve and this is one of the principal goals I will endeavour to achieve. I am delighted to report to the committee that this goal is one which representatives of the mining community with whom I have spoken since becoming Mines minister share with me.
While economic considerations remain a major factor in the development of mining operations, environmental protection is increasingly becoming as important. Together, industry, government and the people of Ontario must work to achieve sustainable mining development.
Ontario has been blessed with rich mineral deposits. Mining is one of the industrial pillars on which our province was built, and mining activities have shaped the province's economic, social and cultural character.
We are one of the top 10 mineral producers in the world. The value of minerals produced in Ontario approaches $7 billion a year. The industry employs approximately 85,000 people directly and indirectly and is vital to Ontario's continuing prosperity.
L'Ontario est aujourd'hui un important producteur de nickel, de cuivre, d'or, d'argent, de zinc, de gypse, de sel et d'agrégats et de minéraux industriels.
Many factors will influence the level of success the mining industry in Ontario can hope to achieve in the next few years. Commodity prices, capital markets, the Gulf war, instability in the USSR and the emergence of a European trading bloc represent some of these factors and challenges.
In so far as this ministry can effectively assist in developing in Ontario mining operations we can all be proud of, I pledge to the members of this committee my commitment to the achievement of this goal.
Having said this, I will proceed by outlining the Ministry of Mines' activities of the year 1990-91.
As I have already stated, the mining sector is very important to Ontario's prosperity and our ministry is raising awareness of this industry's role in modern society. In October 1990 Mining Awareness Week helped promote greater awareness of the role of mining as well as highlight new developments in environmental protection, worker safety and improved technology. Many activities were held during that week, from conferences to ore sample displays, and they all helped generate a better understanding of the mining process.
The theme of Mining Week 1990, Minerals Make Our Lives Better, was truly appropriate. It is an accurate reflection of the contribution made to our quality of life by the Ontario mining industry. The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines is sincerely committed and dedicated to helping Ontarians gain a heightened appreciation of the role of mining in all of our lives. In June, we will again be participating in the activities of Mining Week 1991. This is a very effective vehicle for promotion of our mining sector, of the mining sector in Ontario.
In December 1990 my ministry sponsored a workshop on acid mine drainage. This workshop focused on informing the public as to the severity of the problem. University professors from across the province as well as mining industry representatives and provincial ministries participated.
To this end, I am pleased to say that our government has committed $1.5 million over the next three years through the environment technology fund to look into the issue of the effects of acids on our environment.
This year, the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines celebrates a century of participation in mining in Ontario. On 4 May 1891 the Bureau of Mines was established as a division of the Department of Crown Lands, with a mandate to inventory mineral resources and recommend methods to encourage their development. Centennial events will help to foster public awareness of the mines and minerals division's role, to acknowledge the contribution of Ontario's mineral exploration/mining industry, and to remind the industry as well of the ministry's continuing involvement in mineral resources development.
An important promotional element in educating the public on the importance of the mining sector in all our lives is the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines 1991 centennial calendar. If you do request a copy, with high respect, we would be only too pleased to acquiesce to your reasonable request. It is a wonderful calendar. It addresses mining and reminds us on a daily basis -- that is what calendars are for -- of the importance mining plays in all our lives. I do encourage participation and expect it from each and every member of this committee.
The Chair: Perhaps the minister with his kind suggestion would furnish all members of the Legislature with one.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Indeed, thank you.
Chaque page du calendrier nous rappelle l'évolution de l'exploration minière en Ontario des années précédant 1890 à nos jours, bien sûr. Les illustrations et le texte évoquent le travail ardu et le dévouement de travailleurs dont les efforts inestimables ont contribué à édifier l'économie de l'Ontario.
Our ministry has identified many other ways of raising public awareness of the mining sector during the centennial year. The production of a brochure will help to illustrate the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines past, present and future role in the development of Ontario's mineral resources. Ministry staff are also preparing an audio-visual presentation that will focus on the contributions made by the mineral resource sector, its pioneers and its communities.
This year, symposiums and seminars will encourage the exchange of information within the industry and will underline the mines and minerals division's continuing role in the development of a healthy mineral resource sector. Centennial displays will be presented at the annual mines and mineral symposiums in Toronto and in northern Ontario, at the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada's annual convention, and at other venues, such as open houses at ministry offices throughout the province.
The Ontario Geological Survey, OGS, is also helping to make information more accessible for the average person who is interested in our mineral resources. The OGS is producing a bilingual -- Mrs Marland -- popularized version of the Geology of Ontario. This publication of about 40 pages will be aimed at the general public.
The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines is positioning itself for the future. Last fall many staff from the mines and minerals divisions moved to Sudbury, some 230 miles from Toronto -- you remember that, Mr Chairman -- to say: "Look, we believe in the people of the north. Mining means northern Ontario, it means a lot to us, gives us our place under the sun. So mean what you say. Move real jobs, real people, to the north to represent the industry, the aspirations." This was done, and I want, with your consent, sir, to make every member of this committee aware that this process is ongoing. We are not talking about numbers in a book, we are not talking about faces in the crowd. We are talking about real people who have moved to Sudbury, many of whom are with the ministry.
If you will allow me this opportunity, with Brock Smith, our deputy minister, Dr John Gammon, our assistant deputy minister, and many people who have ventured south for the edification of the members of this committee. They are members of our family at Mines. They go beyond what is expected of them; they do not count the hours. We are very happy for their participation. They reflect the contribution the people of the north are making, for they are northerners themselves.
La direction des terrains miniers et l'exploitation des minéraux, appuyées par le personnel de la Division des services ministériels a emménagé dans le nouvel immeuble de l'administration centrale du ministère au centre-ville de Sudbury.
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The offices are right in downtown Sudbury. You cannot escape them. They are conducive to good mineral order. This is a workplace and everyone in Sudbury relates to it. Again, we are very proud. We can never be repetitious on such a good deed, Mr Chairman, and I know you do appreciate that.
The ministry relocation -- I just talked about it. Who writes these things?
As I stated at the beginning of my remarks, the mines and minerals division of our ministry has three major program areas. They are mineral resources, mining lands and mineral development. At this point I would like to review these three programs.
Mineral resources: The mineral resources program provides comprehensive and publicly accessible geoscience and mineral resource information by means of geoscience investigations, publications, libraries and resident geologist offices.
This information is provided for the following purposes:
1. To support private sector exploration and development of mineral resources;
2. To facilitate land base utilization, geotechnical and environmental engineering activities;
3. To assist planners, consultants, educators and the general public, and
4. To encourage and support geoscience research.
Dans ce secteur d'activité, la Commission géologique de l'Ontario ouvre la voie dans le domaine de la recherche géoscientifique et dirige des travaux d'exploration et des études géoscientifiques détaillées dans toutes les régions de la province.
Special studies are oriented towards origin and occurrence of mineral deposits, the identification of favourable prospecting areas, and the physical, chemical, and engineering characteristics of the provincial land base.
Our annual mines and minerals symposium provides a forum for communication between clients and ministry staff on mineral development opportunities, geoscience investigations by ministry staff and research projects funded under the Ontario geoscience research grant program, a most popular program -- you can certainly appreciate that, Mr Chairman. We are very proud of our geoscience research grant program.
In December the symposium's geoscience research seminar provided the release of information about current geoscience projects to ministry clients. This is an excellent opportunity for staff geoscientists to meet with industry and university people and the general public to discuss branch projects and field-work activities. As important as the information-gathering is getting the information into the public's hands.
L'an dernier, la Commission géologique de l'Ontario a participé à la mise au point de nouvelles techniques de préparation de rapports et de cartes ainsi qu'à l'élaboration d'un réseau informatisé d'accès à nos bases de données géoscientifiques.
As a result of a co-operative effort between industry and government, the OGS has achieved a breakthrough in the presentation of geophysical maps. A revision to computer software has produced drastic improvement in coloured, large-scale geophysical maps that will benefit all the ministry's clients and set a new standard for geophysical maps. Fascinating indeed. A new computerized method of recording, analysing and drawing preliminary geological maps in the field, as surveys are being done, has been developed and distributed by the OGS. The software, called OGS Fieldlog, is a new portable system that enables geologists to analyse, revise and archive information. The system has been adopted by three universities and will be taught to their students in field schools.
As part of this ongoing effort to improve delivery of geoscience data, a fast-track method of report and map production was initiated. Utilizing the latest computerized editing, typesetting and cartographic technology, it is now possible -- I know some members of the committee will be somewhat appalled and shocked -- to take a manuscript report and colour map through the editing, production and printing cycle in less than six months.
During the first 18 months of fast-track production, 21 reports and 19 full-colour maps were released. This compares with -- dramatic change indeed -- seven reports and eight maps during the previous 18 months. The fast-track method is being studied by other geological surveys, including the Geological Survey of Canada, so once again Ontario is setting the pace in providing and improving data delivery procedures.
Geophysical surveys are an important function of our ministry. Airborne magnetic and electromagnetic geophysical surveys provide detailed information to assess the mineral potential of areas that may contain mineral deposits. These airborne surveys are conducted in areas of high potential for metallic mineral exploration. The technique allows geophysicists to gain some idea of what rock types might exist beneath the surface without having to drill or physically probe. Equipment on board the aircraft emits a pulsating electromagnetic field towards the earth. What bounces back is an altered electromagnetic field, and how it is altered provides clues, if you know how to read those charts -- it gets more interesting as I go along here; listen, you may learn something -- to the physical properties of the rocks below the surface and potential mineral concentration in the rocks. Those are career-enhancing statements for people who work long and hard producing these things for the minister. The resulting maps can be used for planning surface or underground exploration.
L'automne dernier, la Commission géologique de l'Ontario a publié les résultats de cinq levés géophysiques aéroportés effectués dans les régions de Batchawana, de North Swayze-Montcalm, de Sturgeon Lake-Savant Lake, de Shining Tree et de Rainy River.
Four other surveys, with a total geophysical coverage of about 54,000 line kilometres, were conducted in the fall and winter. The areas of the Partridge River, Benny, Shebandowan and Birch Lake-Uchi Lake were chosen because of their potential to host metallic mineral deposits. The results of these surveys are scheduled to be released next summer in both map and digital form.
In addition, Ontario was also at the geophysics forefront in preparing a province-wide grid of aeromagnetic data which provides the base for a wide range of improved aeromagnetic data interpretation by mineral explorationists and geoscience consultants. This project is fast becoming a standard for other provinces in Canada, and the grid will provide a base for many new computer applications of provincial magnetic data in the search for minerals and an ongoing search for more mines.
My ministry operates 15 resident geologists' offices across the province. The resident geologists are responsible for monitoring and stimulating exploration in Ontario. They are indeed experts on the geology of their area and are able to conduct and supervise field studies.
Resident geologists provide a local point of access for information and professional consulting service to prospectors exploration companies and the public on the geology, mineral deposits, exploration and mining techniques and activities in their district. Among their other duties the resident geologists hold prospector-training sessions, report on exploration development projects and producing mines in their area, and provide mineral-potential evaluation for the province's land use planning programs.
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Moving right along, the ministry also supports geological research programs that provide increased understanding of our mineral potential. In 1990, 20 geoscience projects at eight Ontario universities received a total -- wow! -- of $500,000 in provincial grants. These research projects investigated improvements in mineral exploration technology and assisted the ministry's mineral resources programs.
The Ontario Geological Survey, referred to as OGS, maintains good working relationships with Ontario universities, and our relocation to Sudbury will particularly strengthen ties with institutions such as Laurentian University and Cambrian College, both based in Sudbury, and Lakehead University in Thunder Bay. With this will come, I believe, a strengthening of the networking of our northern universities with southern Ontario universities and other educational institutions which deliver geological and mining-related curricula, such as the Haileybury School of Mines.
The year 1992 will be indeed a very special year, because we will be officially opening the research centre at Laurentian University at a cost of $49 million to the taxpayers, and of course we will by that time have completed the transfer of our geoscience team to Sudbury. So to all intents and purposes everyone who is related to the Ministry of Mines will be based in there. We have no intention of neglecting the need to service our clientele, the client group, all the stakeholders. So we will be in an ideal position to put our best foot forward and to make sure that our efforts are conducive to good mineral development through the making and development of more mines.
On the subject of mineral development, of course, the mineral development program of our mineral development and lands branch assists Ontario's mineral development through four functions as follows:
1. Seeking and developing new opportunities and market niches;
2. Co-ordinating development projects and providing assistance to the minerals industry;
3. Supporting research in mining technology;
4. Advising government and industry on legislation, market trends and technological advances.
Mining moves our economy. The development of our province's mining wealth is one of the prime movers of our economy. The minerals we extract from the earth add immeasurably to our standard of living and our way of life. One can be certainly safe that if it is not farmed, it is likely mined. It never stops to shock and appal me that we take mining for granted. Where would we be if it was not for mining? All we have to do to realize it fully is, for instance, we would all be standing up because of the steel, because of the alloys. Nothing goes on without the important contribution that mining does to our daily lives.
Again we are talking in terms of 85,000 in Ontario, 85,000 direct and indirect jobs, a contribution of $7 billion to $8 billion in production, $150 million last year into the pockets of Treasury, and that is very direct. We all understand it. That is a contribution in real terms.
Mining is a dynamic process that can be divided into four distinct stages: exploration, development, production and closure. The new Mining Act recognizes this as a progression and provides for its regulation, especially at the closure stage where new provisions have been introduced in part IX of the Mining Act.
Last year, two working groups were formed to generate the regulation required to put part IX of the new act into effect. One group was made up of mineral industry representatives, while the second consisted of staff from the ministries who currently regulate mining under other acts. Both groups met regularly to formulate the new regulation, with our ministry staff taking an active part with both groups. The two groups met to complete a draft regulation which was reviewed by the public prior to the final drafting process.
Simply put, it is the following: mining reclamation for the day when a mine ceases to be in operation. The regulation will put teeth into the Mining Act. The focus is that you have to be, you are compelled, it will be mandatory, it will be in the statutes to be more favourable to the environment. We are going to be consistent. We will be reasonable also, but a few dollars will be put aside for the day when you are no longer in production. You will not leave a mess behind you. We will not have to chase the owners. We will be addressing the environment.
We will say: "Hey, do your thing. We want to wish you well. You are providing jobs but now you also have a responsibility." That then has been well taken. This will be the highlight when the new Mining Act, by virtue of its regulation -- target date 1 June -- comes into force.
This requirement for an approved closure plan before production starts will result in mines being developed, operated and closed in a more responsible manner. It will make proponents consider closure issues when designing the mine.
For the newcomers, for people who are successful, whose dreams are coming true and are opening a mine, we are saying: "We'll do it together. But you tell us what you will do. You tell us about your closure plan before you even start, as a condition of doing business. Since you are a finite resource, since the day you take one rock out of the ground and put it into the box you're that much closer to extinction, we want to know what's going to happen after." Part IX of the Mining Act will do this consistently and at a reasonable cost.
We are all very much aware of the need to be more favourable to the environment. We are also painfully aware that times are tough, that we are in the midst of a severe recession. Then of course an important function of our ministry, particularly in tough economic times, particularly during a recession, is fostering more activity in the mining sector. Especially important is the exploration side, which helps ensure the future of the industry.
Incentive programs have been offered to encourage the search for new wealth. Such programs are essential if we want to continue to encourage the search for such new wealth. For mining to remain an economic pillar in this province, exploration must continue. The prospector, the small exploration company, the investors, the developers -- all must be encouraged to maintain their level of activity despite more trying times.
The Ontario prospectors assistance program, OPAP -- this is so important. This is grass roots. This is the proverbial or the not-so-proverbial Harry Smith with his hammer being given -- providing he files the forms, and in most cases they qualify. Under the OPAP program you are telling the prospector, "Look, we're giving you $10,000 to do your thing." The program has been very heavily subscribed. It has been very popular. It has benefited always and only the small players, if you wish, the people who would not have gone in the bush in most cases, would not have been able to put their best foot forward, had they not received that gentle push.
In all honesty, this program was started by the ancien régime. It was started by the previous administration.
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The Chair: I understood that.
Hon Mr Pouliot: No government is all bad or all good. This is a program that -- look, give credit where credit is due. All we have done is enhance the program. We put more money into the program. We have come closer to addressing the demand, but I want to make clear and pay credit to the previous administration. I was there and experienced it at first hand, and you did too, sir, when we had the accord in 1985, and I do recognize some of the wording under the OPAP program.
Also, to complement the OPAP program, we have an OMIP program, Ontario mineral incentive program.
Interjection.
Hon Mr Pouliot: You have a showing you were given a few minutes ago, $10,000 to do your thing. You pick up a rock and it is interesting that now you want to do some exploration. You guessed it. The government of Ontario is with you. We upped the ante. You did not stand alone 10 minutes ago, but now you have an interesting showing. Your chance to dream may become a reality. You are almost there, but exploration costs money.
Mr Curling: How much more money is that?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Thirty cents on the dollar, up to a maximum of $300,000. So you have gone from an OPAP perspective to an OMIP investor. We are getting closer to the dream of cutting the ribbon.
Mr Curling: I have a dream.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Of course, if you are in a designated area, if you are among the less fortunate for a time --
Mr Curling: Throwing rocks one day.
Hon Mr Pouliot: -- be it Kirkland Lake, Elliot Lake, Nakina, Geraldton, Beardmore, Longlac, Manitouwadge --
Mrs Marland: I have been to all those places.
Hon Mr Pouliot: I know you are well travelled, Mrs Marland.
If you have been designated as an area that is suffering, then the government will go from 30 cents on the dollar to 50 cents on the dollar. This is as far as the government got.
This is a strong partnership. We have gone from the OPAP program and we are going to the OMIP program and we are increasing the money, even if our revenues are decreasing. We are saying, "No, we must sustain the encouragement." So we are increasing OPAP; we are also increasing OMIP.
Last year for instance, 174 OMIP applications were approved for assistance, for a total of $10,805,000 in potential grants.
Earlier this month, just to talk briefly about it, add to the list of underserviced areas, of communities that are suffering under difficult times, the township of Atikokan, because they too will be the recipient of consideration up to 50%.
I cannot emphasize enough the importance of the exploration sector, not only to Ontario's economy but also to the future of the province's mining industry. The cancellation of the federal government's Canadian exploration incentive program -- we are talking about flow-through here -- is a most unfortunate and untimely decision by the federal government. None the less, our government is taking steps to ensure that exploration activities continue in difficult times so that the future health of the mining industry in Ontario can be assured.
Mining lands: The mining lands program of our mines and minerals division ensures public access to crown mineral rights through policy legislation and regulation for the acquisition in this position of mineral rights, and through competitive mineral exploration and development of land base.
Le secteur des terrains miniers de la province relève de neuf divisions minières, chacune étant administrée par un conservateur de registres miniers. Par le biais de ce secteur, le ministère met les droits miniers des terres de la Couronne à la disposition des particuliers et des sociétés détenteurs d'un permis et qui ont obtenu ces droits par le jalonnement de concessions minières de 16 hectares.
With regard to the new Mining Act, under the mining lands program there is more good news for prospectors.
The Chair: Excuse me, Minister, might I interrupt and ask how much longer you will require. I have extended your time now to 44 minutes. I would like perhaps to get guidance from you about how much longer you will be. I do want to give you an opportunity to complete. You bring a very romantic notion to the Ministry of Mines and this is refreshing. I did not want to interrupt you, but I did want to get your guidance as to how much longer you will need.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Never would I allow myself to tax the patience of people, and I do apologize. I say this with all the sincerity at my command. While I was romancing the rock, I may have got carried away. There is so much to be said about mining, for a moment I forgot that nothing stops the march of time.
The Chair: I am still waiting for an answer.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Yes, and I do appreciate your kindness --
The Chair: Now you are romancing your answer. I would like to know how much time. I want to be fair to everyone. How much time would you need, sir?
Hon Mr Pouliot: I am just about to conclude.
The Chair: Wonderful. I am pleased.
Hon Mr Pouliot: The list goes on and on: easier to issue licences, new rules that will beneflt prospectors, because those are important when you are in the field, when you watch experts working their craft, very, very important.
I thought that I was somewhat familiar -- I have always been comfortable -- with mining, and I cannot overemphasize the contribution that is made by the civil servants, people in our ministerial office, working collectively, searching long and hard for ways, for legislation that will increase the degree of activity in mining.
Oh, yes, we are fully cognizant of the need to better promote our industry, the need to educate, not only members of the committee, for they have so many subject matters to address that one cannot expect them to give mining the justice that it so rightly deserves, but they too in time will go through the same experience as we have at the ministry. They too will make mining a priority. They will want to join us in promoting the efforts of that vital contribution to our system.
We have focused on that pact, something that has become a credo. Collectively to a person, this is what we do. We do it in the 59 operating mines in the province of Ontario. We tell the communities: "Put your best foot forward. You have a lot to be proud of." We represent what is best in society, the modern spirit, the chance to dream, expediency, entrepreneurship, partnership. We build bridges with labour, intelligent discontent, the finding of solutions. We live and relive that experience on and on again, and invite everyone to join us.
We are looking forward to a very constructive estimates process. Merci. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your attention.
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The Chair: Thank you, Minister. Mrs Marland, do you have a procedural question?
Mrs Marland: I just have a point of privilege. In response to the minister's comment that I am well travelled, I would like to confirm the fact that all of that travelling was done on the resources development committee when we visited 17 mines in this province, and I concur wholly with the comments of the minister today.
The Chair: Well, that is your privilege but not necessarily your point of privilege.
I would like first to indicate that the minister took 47 minutes. It would be my suggestion that we do one of two things: either extend the time to the two critics or reduce the minister's response time accordingly. I will take guidance from the two critics. I received no challenge to extend his time, and I did not see the need to upset the flow until --
Mr McLean: On a point of privilege, Mr Chairman: It is a problem I have but nobody else has. I have a speaking engagement tonight at 6 o'clock, and I am wondering if the committee would be able to proceed with the official opposition. I wondered if I would be allowed to wait until tomorrow at 10 o'clock for my opening remarks.
The Chair: May I ask, Mr McLean, with the indulgence of Mr Miclash, if you could do yours now, would that give you sufficient time to get to your riding?
Mr McLean: Yes, I think it would.
The Chair: I do not wish to prevail on you, but would that be amenable?
Mr Miclash: Yes. I have no problem with that.
The Chair: That is very much appreciated. If I can, I will proceed to recognize you immediately, Mr McLean.
I still wish to get your guidance with respect to the use of the half-hour time spots and, if it is agreeable, that it is deemed that the minister's 46 minutes was part of his complete hour associated with the preamble portion.
Mr McLean: My presentation will be less than half an hour by quite a bit. What I am going to do is make a presentation, I am going to have some questions in it, and that in turn will give the minister and his staff a chance, when we come back tomorrow, for some of the answers to some of the questions. I will even give them in writing to him so it will make it that much easier for his staff. Can I proceed now, Mr Chairman?
The Chair: The minister has no difficulty if we get into the question and answer period even sooner. I will recognize Mr McLean now and then I will move to Mr Miclash and then I will recognize the minister.
Mr McLean: I am pleased to have this opportunity to participate, as are the rest, and I am pleased to participate on behalf of our party in today's consideration of the 1991 estimates for the Ministry of Mines.
I want to use this opportunity to ask some questions as well as offer some constructive ideas and, naturally, some constructive criticism.
You are no doubt aware, as everybody is, that the Ministry of Natural Resources originated with the amalgamation of the former departments of lands and forests, and mines and northern affairs. In 1985 some of the mining-related responsibilities were transferred back to the reconstructed Ministry of Northern Development and Mines. The mining section of this ministry is responsible for encouraging and regulating the orderly development and utilization of Ontario's mineral resources.
I would like to take this opportunity to address four areas of concern that I feel have a relationship to Ontario's mining industry. Those areas are: (1) energy supply and Hydro rates; (2) native land claims; (3) taxes; and (4) the environment.
We all know that this year the Ontario Hydro rate increase reached 8.6%, and that does not include the goods and services tax. I am concerned that the high cost of power is quickly outpacing inflation, and I am also worried about the security of supply. The former Liberal government's decision to purchase power from Alberta leaves the mining industry, and all of Ontario for that matter, at the mercy of and dependent on another province. The moratorium on nuclear power development will delay decisions on new sources of supply here in our own province.
I believe that if an industry like the mining industry is to contribute to economic growth by providing jobs and creating wealth here in Ontario, it must have access to a secure supply of power. The Minister of Energy, during her estimates hearings, said there was no shortage of power in the province and that conservation efficiency would provide the needed power over the next decade. The Ontario Mining Association considers that mining is one of the industries in Ontario that has done a considerable amount already with respect to saving power. As our critic for Energy said during the Energy estimates, conservation and efficiency programs are not new in this province; they are good management techniques, and I sincerely believe the mining industry has been practising these good management techniques. What the Minister of Mines and his government must remember is that if Ontario loses industry it loses jobs and the tax base that pays for Ontario's social safety-net programs.
The minister and his government must also remember that if a mine closes or experiences massive layoffs, the dependent community will suffer an imposing decline in its economic fortunes. Within the past year or two, it has been the turn of Elliot Lake, Temagami and Kirkland Lake to experience this problem.
At this point, I have a few questions I would like to put to the minister. Did the Ministry of Mines review Ontario Hydro's environmental assessment for its demand-supply plan, DSP? If so, will he share with the committee a copy of the ministry review and tell the committee what the Mines ministry's major comments on the plan were? If the Mines ministry did not prepare a review of the DSP documents, why not? Is the minister not aware that the linkage between industry and the supply of power are crucial?
I will go on with these, as I mentioned, Minister, so it will give you the chance to come back tomorrow with the replies.
Does the minister intend to have his staff either participate in or at least monitor the DSP environmental assessment hearings starting later this month?
My next area of concern relates to native land claims in the province of Ontario. According to the mining industry, the NDP government has been moving ahead with native self-government before actually defining what self-government is. The industry is concerned in particular with areas in Treaty 3 and Treaty 9 -- James Bay and Hudson Bay watershed -- where 25,000 of the 30,000 people are natives living in approximately 26 separate communities. Minister, your government has directed business and industries operating in these treaty areas to undertake communications efforts with the native communities; but your government is behind the times, because they have been doing this for several years now. In fact, there are at least three mining companies that already have agreements with the nearby native communities regarding guaranteed jobs, infrastructure improvements, etc.
I am concerned that the current government will undertake to sign interim agreements with native communities that would be in place while self-government is being negotiated, and these agreements could deny access to land for mineral exploration. It usually takes about 10 years from the exploration stage to actual mine development. If exploration companies are denied access, it would delay mine development, which in turn would delay job creation, economic development and new tax revenue.
I would like to know how the minister views his government's movement to implement native self-government and how he sees it impacting on the mining industry in Ontario.
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There is no doubt the mining industry is hurting right now. Mines are closing, workers are being laid off and mining communities are being devastated by the effects. There is also no doubt that the NDP government will announce major tax hikes in the upcoming provincial budget or be confronted with a huge deficit in the 1991-92 fiscal year.
The Agenda for People would indicate corporations might have to bear the brunt of any tax increases, as this would appear to be more acceptable to the people. But the government fails to realize that, in addition to the basic corporation taxes, there is already a mining profit tax that brings in $130 million annually, and a royalty on all mineral products in this province. If mining companies are forced to bear an increase in taxes, we could very well see a reduction in their competitiveness with other mining jurisdictions and it would be one more reason for them to leave the province.
Ontario at one time enjoyed a competitive edge in the mining industry. Our ore bodies are still rich, but the economic incentives and conditions are becoming better elsewhere. Exploration is increasing in many other jurisdictions. For example, in Nevada where the gold mines are abundant, Canadian mining companies are practically falling over each other to compete in exploration. Exploration is also on the rise in New Guinea, Chile, Turkey, the Andes, the South Pacific and south of the border in Nevada and California.
Statistics in the 1990-91 estimates briefing book show a 13% decrease in the total number of mining claims, a 59% decrease in the number of mining claims staked, and a 33% decrease in the number of days worked on claims. I am concerned that these statistics indicate that mining exploration activity in Ontario is suffering, and I hope the minister will use this meeting to comment on this trend and outline what he sees for the future.
I would also like to know if the Minister of Mines has been consulted by the Treasurer about additional taxation of the mining industry as we get closer to the provincial budget. Has he been consulted?
Ontario's mining industry has a number of concerns regarding environmental initiatives and directions of the new government. Over the past five years, the mining industry has been dealing with the massive costs of implementing MISA, the municipal-industrial strategy for abatement, to stop pollution of the waterways. So far they have spent more than $25 million just on the monitoring phase alone. The industry is also concerned that the coming CAP, clean air program, will be implemented in a similar manner and will result in another huge burden in terms of time and money.
The mining industry would like to see CAP implemented in a more efficient manner than has been the case with MISA. I would like to know if the minister is participating in any way in the development of the clean air program to ensure that the interests of the mining industry are being taken into consideration. If the minister is not participating, I would like to know why not.
The mining industry is also concerned about the coming environmental bill of rights and is wondering if heavily regulated industries like mining will be faced with shutdowns by an individual. Is the Minister of Mines actively participating in the development of this bill to ensure that the interests of the mining industry are taken into consideration when the bill is drafted? That is the question.
There are an estimated 3,000 abandoned mines in Ontario and there is the possibility of tailings spills occurring at many of these sites. The coming changes to the Mining Act will require companies to set aside sufficient funds to return mine sites to their natural state by rehabilitating tailing areas with revegetation or other methods, along with the removal of buildings and the capping of mine shafts. Is the minister confident that the changes to the Mining Act will prevent further incidents similar to that which occurred at Matachewan, when approximately 10,000 dump truck loads of tailings from a former gold mine were washed down the Montreal River after a lake overflowed its banks? Do these changes to the Mining Act contain provisions for the cleanup of any waterways that might be polluted by the tailings spills?
I look forward to receiving your replies on these, and I hope your staff could have some of them prepared for tomorrow so we have some of the answers. Those are some of the main questions I have. If the ministry staff would like some of my notes, that is quite well. Thank you very much.
Mr Miclash: First, I would like to welcome the minister and his staff to the committee. I am looking forward to the estimates, as we move through many questions we have as well. I must say I have enjoyed the minister's comradeship and talent over the last three years as a comrade from the north, and we have shared many discussions on many particular issues for the people of the north. I would like to welcome those people from the north -- I notice we have a few people, even one from Kenora, in the audience, as well as the deputy minister back from his native land, northern Ontario; knowing he is very happy in moving back to Sudbury -- as the minister eluded to earlier, a move that took place under the previous administration, which we are very proud of.
I would also like to say that the minister today alleviates some of my concerns about what he calls "an industrial pillar" on which the province of Ontario was built. I was a little concerned, actually, about what this government's interest in this industrial pillar might have been, knowing it was not mentioned in the throne speech, a throne speech in which I remember the minister saying he would have a good amount of input on behalf of northerners -- he would not be sitting out in the bleachers, as he mentioned. I was a little concerned.
I am a little concerned about some of the statements made by our present Premier as well, in terms of the industry and how it will best serve the needs of the people, especially those in the north. Mr Rae gave us some figures saying we have 85,000 jobs connected to that mining industry and, as he knows and I know, a lot of these jobs are in the north and an industry in the north we are very dependent on. I would just like to mention, as I say, that he somewhat alleviates my fear that this government is not going to show the interest in mining the previous government did.
I would like to mention that the previous government did bring in some excellent programs, the Ontario mineral incentive program being one of them, a program we are proud of; the Ontario prospectors assistance program being another, a program which I as the member for Kenora was able to become personally involved in. The minister indicated some things we did for the prospector, the people in the field, the grassroots of the industry, and some things I am very proud of as part of that administration and part of taking those dollars into the field.
We, as the official opposition, will of course be asking some more specific questions about the programs: where they are today, where they will be tomorrow. I am happy to note that the minister has indicated already a good interest in these programs and possibly an interest in seeing them go on.
However, I was a little disappointed that you had very little to say about the present economic situation in mining in the province as it stands today. I was happy to hear about the calendar -- as a matter of fact, I have ordered 12 of them already, and I know it is very good -- but a very small portion of your presentation today was on the present economic situation of the mining industry in the province today. I guess what I am going to be doing is bringing a lot of my comments back to you around that situation and the survival of this present industry in what we know is a very competitive industry throughout the world.
Only last week, I was able to participate in a federal task force that met in Dryden to listen to the concerns of northern residents. During the presentations we had a consulting geologist from Dryden make a presentation to the task force and talk about mining. He indicated that he was the only one left of five consulting geologists in the area -- again, something which points to the severity we find ourselves in in terms of the economic downturn in this industry, especially in and around the part of the north I represent. We will be talking about that.
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I have indicated the importance of the industry to the province of Ontario, and Minister, as we go on into the eight hours, we will be coming up with more specific questions. Today what I will do is just outline, relate some of the areas to you at this present time and then move in on as we get farther into the estimates.
I cannot stress enough the economic impact and the situation of the mining industry today in the province. We will be looking to you for guidance as to what this government will be doing to help those people such as I mentioned, the consulting geologist from the Dryden area, who had many specific questions which I will be bringing back as we move on into your estimates, the way this government will be planning to help those people out in the field.
The Mining Act you touched on briefly. We will be asking you how you will be going to continue in the implementation of the new Mining Act. You touched on various sections of it in your delivery today, and again, we will be quite interested in hearing what you have to say in more specific detail.
One of the programs anybody connected with the industry will know about is COMDA, the Canada-Ontario Mineral Development Agreement. As the minister will know, it is a five-year program that concluded in March 1990. We, the previous administration which the minister talked about, were in a position to renew our $15-million commitment to the program, should the feds do the same. Now we will be asking the minister where he is at in terms of that program and what he has done in terms of encouraging the feds to come in with the renewal of that.
The minister will also know that of very particular concern to myself are the environmental assessments. He knows that in my riding for the first time in the history of mining we are carrying out an environmental assessment on a company that wishes to go ahead with what looks to be possibly a very rich find and something that could turn into a very successful operation, an operation that will bring considerable growth to the industry, jobs to an area that very much needs those jobs, and of course, as the minister spoke about, various economic spin-offs that will come from this particular project. So of course I will be asking the minister some very specific questions on the Shoal Lake development, its progress in terms of the environmental assessment and what he has in mind for that.
I must say that at the present time I hope to alleviate a lot of concerns that I personally, representing the area, have in terms of this development, some conflicting opinions coming from the government. Again, I will be getting into further depth in terms of that.
The minister indicated that they will be taking a look at what they are doing in terms of mines. As we know, it is often said that the first day the shovel goes into the ground is the first day in the life of the mine, which will eventually come to an end.
Now the minister has indicated some programs -- and again we talk a little bit about the previous administration -- that deal with the mines that are going into production and what will become of their shafts. We know some very significant danger areas they leave behind, but I think what we will be particularly interested in is taking a look at what is going to happen in terms of the abandoned mine sites, those that have been left behind by companies that have already removed themselves from the area. In some areas it is not to be known which companies actually had been in the area and who should be responsible for it.
As I indicated earlier, the economic situation of mining in Ontario today is not in the greatest shape, and I often think of the exploration companies, the junior resource companies, the junior mining people out there and what we will be looking at in terms of programs for them.
Of particular interest to myself as well is what the Quebec government is able to offer in terms of tax credits for its exploration projects. We know at the present time, because of their income tax system, they are able to offer 133% tax credit for these projects, a very significant boost to their mining industry. I am sure the minister is aware of that, and will as well want to comment on that.
Speaking of taxation, we know that the mining industry is often hit with extremely high levels of taxation, particularly at the municipal level, and we will be taking a look at how this government plans on helping those mines that are having particular difficulty with that.
I mentioned earlier about the competitive element that the mining industry finds itself in today, and I think what we will be expecting the minister to be looking at is how it actually fits in, not only in the Canadian market with other provinces, but as I mentioned earlier, in a much more global economy and a much more global fashion.
The minister's announcement of a new $400 million, the northern fund into northern Ontario, we will be asking about that money moving into the north. The main thing we will be concentrating on is the money component in terms of that announcement and what that will mean to our mining industry as well.
Just in closing, Mr Minister, as I say, we will be going back to a lot of these as we move through the estimates, we know that Angus Reid has just recently completed a national survey of opinion about the mining industry, and we know that it has shown that the majority of people see the industry in a very negative light. That has come to my attention quite readily, as I mentioned earlier in a particular situation in my riding, and I am going to be asking specific questions of the minister as to how the industry sees itself and how the Minister of Mines will be helping the industry sort of move away from that negative light.
I will encourage him to show what he indicated as being an industrial pillar of this province and how he is going to sell that to the people of the province who have been indicating a fairly negative opinion in terms of this very important industry.
Just in wrapping up, I thank you for your presentation and I look forward to the hours of estimates as we move through them.
The Chair: As previously instructed, we could then recognize the minister, who is in a position to comment briefly on his reaction in response to your opening statements and those of Mr McLean, and then when the minister has completed that, we will take your guidance as to how we will proceed with the various estimates votes.
Hon Mr Pouliot: It does not come as a surprise that my distinguished colleague would be so well prepared and so focused on the current mining agenda in the province, spelling it out almost in a meticulous fashion. That is not uncommon when you come from the northwest. It is certainly expected when you are the critic for the third party, but it had a certain order that I, as Minister of Mines, really welcome. There was almost a philosophy attached to it, not that you could anticipate or guess the questions, but the highlights.
You favoured us with your concern about -- Mr McLean did -- very current issues. In fact he spelled out -- that takes some doing -- 8.6%, the increase, and I said: "Maybe the gentleman will omit to mention the compounding feature about it. He will not talk about the GST." He did, and we are very much aware that it does in fact. And we will respond in more detail to that legitimate and most timely question, Treaty 9, Nishnawbe-Aski agreement, the impact that it will have on mining.
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What it is you said? "Minister, we want a focus. What does it really mean for our industry?" We will endeavour to answer in detail. The list goes on and on, all pertinent questions. Shoal Lake, for those who read the mining paper, it is the affair of Shoal Lake, because it has been going on, a saga, if you wish, and we thank you for it, Mr Miclash. You do not have to be from Kenora to know about Shoal Lake. It has been well publicized, but I would imagine that you are reminded daily.
You talk about the environmental assessment. We will endeavour again to share some information. You are certainly aware of all the stakeholders involved in the Shoal Lake situation, and we will do it together. You talked about the contribution -- both our distinguished critics, rightly so, reminded us -- of the kind of dilemma and the importance of mining, more important now because we go with our forte when times are rough. We go with our resources. We are resource-based.
There was a chronology, or if you wish a methodology, attached to it, a style, a method, an approach that is most welcome. It is the kind of subject matter that we at Mines, our team addresses, sometimes redresses on a daily basis. Nothing came as a surprise. Everything deserves full answers. We look forward in our system to a cordial partnership, because we are all heading in the same direction, and there is the opportunity to respond in more detail. Everyone gains when everyone is well informed. We say candidly to both our distinguished critics, and give the commitment that when direct questions are asked, it will not be, it cannot be, it shall not be a question period but a question-and-answer period.
That in itself is quite a departure from form. We are happy at your interest. We appreciate, we take note of the knowledge -- no departure from sincerity. It is nice to see another six hours. It will go by so quickly. So much could be done. Could we not arrange, do the statutes allow additional time to be made available when interesting subject matters are being addressed, in our collective acquiescence that we can do things better? Could we not do this?
The Chair: The committee can order up its business any way it sees fit, and your positive suggestions, I am sure, have not fallen on deaf ears.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Okay, good food for thought. Thank you very kindly. This is an initial response.
The Chair: If that completes the minister's response --
Hon Mr Pouliot: We wanted to talk about polling, I understand. What was the name of the organization, was it Gallup? Oh, I thought it was Angus Reid. That is another poll, but we are also aware of the polling regarding mining, the 58%.
The Chair: Minister, forgive me for repeating myself, but if you would complete your basic comments then we will order up the process. Have you completed your comments.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Yes, in terms of, initially, a very vague response. We will be awaiting the direct questions.
The Chair: I need you a little closer to the microphone to help Hansard. I hear you very well. Thank you.
Mr Daigeler: It is for posterity, you know.
The Chair: If I may now bring the committee's attention to how we will order up our business, we have two votes to complete. In the past we have moved freely through the votes. We have had a time allocation and we have a little --
Clerk of the Committee: We have six hours and 40 minutes left.
The Chair: We have six hours and 40 minutes remaining, but today, if we are to complete by approximately 6 o'clock, we have about an hour and 20 minutes. Would Mr Miclash be prepared to begin with the question and answer? Could I have agreement that you will take, say, half an hour for your first rotation and then we will move to the government party? Are you comfortable with that at the moment?
Mr Daigeler: If you have a member of the third party coming back.
The Chair: There probably will be. I think there have been accommodations in the past for last-minute absences from both the government and from the third party, so I would assume that the committee is prepared to accommodate that when it is for a member as well as for a minister. If that is the case, are you comfortable with a half-hour time slot, or do you wish to go through any form of rotation, and questions can be raised by any member of the committee? Those are the two suggestions.
Mr Hansen: We will go along with the half-hour for the balance of this day's sitting.
The Chair: Very good.
Mr Miclash: We were thinking what we would like to do is maybe half an hour today and then the rotation tomorrow. I think it is a little bit more interesting if we go through rotation, for the committee members.
The Chair: There is nothing preventing us from adjourning before six and not taking our full hours. I hasten to advise the committee of that. However, if you would like to do at least a half-hour rotation for the official opposition and a half-hour rotation for the government party, and then revisit this question, I would be pleased to do that.
Let's proceed then.
Mr Miclash: Mr Chair, you indicated that we would be dealing with vote 2901 and vote 2903. We have some particular questions in terms of section 2901 and that is where we would like to begin if that would be in order.
The Chair: Yes, it is.
Mr Miclash: I guess our first question is, we want to ask what percentage of the total Ministry of Northern Development and Mines budget is this amount of $51,436,257. That was the total expenditure estimate for mines and minerals, and again we are looking at it as a percentage of the total budget.
The Chair: What is helpful is, if additional ministry staff are going to respond, there are two spaces at the foot of this table and I would ask any ministry staff to identify themselves and their position within the ministry and speak directly into the microphone. That would be very helpful.
Mr Smith: I was introduced as the deputy minister, Brock Smith. Now I will introduce Dr John Gammon to my left, who is the assistant deputy minister of the mines division; and to his left is Mr Couse, who is the acting director of the mines and minerals grant. Joining us at the table are Sheila Willis, who is the executive director of the corporate services division; and to her left is Michael Irvine, who is the director of our finance branch.
With respect to questions about numbers and percentages and so on, I think Sheila would be best to take the lead, but we may all have to chip in, depending on what your question is.
Mr Miclash: Maybe now that we have the experts at the table, I will repeat my question. The total expenditure estimate for mines and minerals, as I mentioned, was $51,436,257. My question was, what percentage of the total MNDM budget is this amount?
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Mrs Willis: That is 15% of the ministry budget.
Mr Miclash: And what percentage increase does this represent over last year's actual expenditure?
Mr Irvine: That represents a 15% increase over the 1989-90 estimates. The 1989-90 actuals amounted to $43,961,000. I do not have a specific percentage but it can be computed quickly. It represents about a 6% increase over the actuals of 1989-90.
Mr Miclash: Can I ask how this figure compares to the past three years? What we are looking for here is real-dollar expenditure.
Mr Irvine: The $51 million for this year?
Mr Miclash: Yes.
Mr Smith: Could I interrupt? I am not sure, Mr Miclash, if Mr Irvine would have that figure in his book. Could we undertake to get that figure for tomorrow?
Mr Miclash: Okay. Something else I guess we were looking for is the number of employees that this represents. Sheila, would you have that?
Mrs Willis: There are approximately 400 employees in that division of the ministry.
Mr Miclash: Our next question relates to the increases in the expenditure in communications services, legal services, particularly financial and administrative services and the services section of human resources, pages 16-23.
Hon Mr Pouliot: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: Are those not relevant to Northern Development? Does it not come under a vote, the particular item that you are addressing?
Mrs Willis: That is correct. This vote is usually debated during the estimates of Northern Development. We do, however, serve in the administration division of both sides of the ministry and both ministers, so there will have to be some discussion on whether we are going to address this vote at this time.
Hon Mr Pouliot: This is Mines, Mr Miclash.
Mr Miclash: Yes, I understand that.
The Chair: If I might, we have had in these estimates areas of concern raised about dual ministry responsibilities, and it would be fair to share with the minister that we have had the willingness of other ministers to freely discuss their relevant ministries in the process of these estimates. We simply suggest that the minister may wish to follow suit, if he feels comfortable doing that. But it would be fair for me to share with him that other ministers have discussed elements of their dual ministry responsibilities because of their interrelationship. I hope that is helpful, but does not obligate the minister.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Well, if the information is available, we certainly have all to gain collectively, so it is a matter of working out the mathematics and you will get it. Give us just whatever time is required to get it forward. We appreciate the question.
Mr Miclash: That is fine.
The Chair: Mr Daigeler, you have a question?
Mr Daigeler: Just to complete this, I do not think there are too many figures required here. Basically I think what we are asking is why there are substantive increases. By the way, this is still the ancien régime so you do not even have to worry too much about it. We just would like to know, for the information of the members, why there are these significant increases in the communications, legal services and financial and administrative services branch. Perhaps that is related to the relocation of the ministry?
Hon Mr Pouliot: I do not want to get into this kind of a contest, with respect, but you would have in hand the first two years, instance one and instance two. We have been at it for about six months. I am not suggesting you get those figures off the shredder, but you would have them in hand. They would be part of your former package. All you are interested in is the last year because we have a --
Mr Daigeler: But --
Hon Mr Pouliot: You are the one who said it yourself. You talked about the ancien régime. That is your responsibility, not ours.
Mr Daigeler: We would like to know -- not the figures, the figures we have. We would like to know why did these figures come about.
The Chair: Minister, do you wish to respond to that? Or the deputy. Could you be helpful?
Mr Smith: Yes, Mr Chairman. Do you want to take it now or do you want it on notice for tomorrow?
Mrs Willis: I can speak to it generally perhaps if that suffices. If not, we can get back with more information.
Mr Smith: Why do you not try it?
Mrs Willis: The increases you are referencing in the administration will relate primarily to the independent services we now incorporate in the division to serve the ministry out of Sudbury. Previously, those services were given to us by the Ministry of Natural Resources and the Ministry of Transportation. We now have them moved over to our side and it represents the majority of the growth you see.
Mr Daigeler: In a way then this is part of the cost of the relocation?
Mrs Willis: It is part of the cost, but I would note that they are transferred dollars and transferred staffing complement rather than additional.
Mr Daigeler: So they should be reduced by that amount somewhere else?
Mrs Willis: They are reduced in the in-year estimates in those other two ministries.
Mr Miclash: Are we speaking of any new staff expenditures at all in terms of that number?
Mrs Willis: There is, over a period of a couple of years, some growth. Some additional staff has been required as a result of the independents, additional to what came over from the other two ministries. On the year we are talking about, it is a straight transfer, not an addition.
Mr Miclash: I would just like to get on to a couple of programs that I had mentioned earlier. I spoke a lot about the economic position of the prospectors and the junior mining and exploration companies. The minister actually touched on the programs in his words to us. What I am looking for, and this is directly to the minister, is whether he anticipates any changes or enrichments to these programs beyond what they are today.
Hon Mr Pouliot: As I mentioned at the outset as part of my initial presentation to the committee, sir, although the revenue side is decreasing or is expected to decrease -- the figures are not out yet but we are getting vibes of real significance that it will decrease and it will do so substantially -- we have, however, chosen to do quite the opposite in terms of both the Ontario prospectors assistance program and the Ontario mineral incentive program.
I would like to ask Dr Gammon to specifically address what your question is about, Mr Miclash. You will want to know real amounts, how much was spent last year, how much we are spending this year, and where are we spending it under OPAP and OMIP.
Dr Gammon: In the year previous to the one currently under discussion, we had a budget of $1.5 million for the prospectors program and that was increased to a total of $4 million for the year currently being discussed. That enabled us to give grants to a total of 416 individual prospectors. I have here a map that the members might be interested in seeing. We can certainly pass it around. It shows the geographic distribution of the grants that were given. It is a very impressive development of measles, as it were, across the province, showing a very wide distribution of geographic allocation of those grants.
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As the minister mentioned, the program has been extremely well received. The regulations require that a recipient should be qualified. It is clearly not intended to be some sort of quasi-welfare program. The program is intended to be aimed at prospectors who will use the money wisely. The challenge there, of course, is that that does not necessarily imply a formal education. Prospectors can acquire the skill in their craft through having spent many years in the bush actually doing prospecting and developing their art that way. We take that into consideration.
Of the qualified prospectors, as I say, 416 of them got grants. There were a couple of hundred others whose applications, even though they were qualified, arrived too late. It is very gratifying to see that there is still a significant body of people out there who are interested in doing prospecting and finding the resources for tomorrow.
Mr Miclash: Are you anticipating any enrichments to the programs for the future, Minister?
Hon Mr Pouliot: We constantly are looking for ways to enhance the program. There are two ways, as you are aware, that this can be done. We can take some money from one program and direct it into another program, if you wish. We could look at some programs -- not that they are in disfavour, bien au contraire. Most of them are very, very heavily subscribed and why not? There is a waiting list.
In terms of value for money, in terms of a better bang for the taxpayers' dollars, we may wish to enhance, but when this is done inside, inevitably it is done on the back of another program. You can only have it one way. Or we can look at another source of income. In times of limited dollars, of course, there is competition for incentive dollars. Or we can encourage industry to do it.
There are several ways that we can do it, one being inside. Another one, of course, is to tap more money from the Treasury in a competing world. A third, of course, is arrangements; for instance, the Canada-Ontario mineral development agreement, COMDA II, the second phase if you wish, or the continuity of a program shared between the federal government and our provincial responsibility. These are three ways that we can do it. Being innovative and drawing up, not within the lines but being imaginative, a partnership -- it could be a three-way partnership with industry, it could be a partnership with municipalities. So there are several ways.
What we are doing is constantly looking at ways without dislocating the system, but looking at ways to enhance. In this case what we have done, if all the revenues are down, we have committed dollars, and Dr Gammon has explained that so well, more money is going into exploration and it is going towards the base.
Mr Miclash: Just following up on that, we talked about the economically distressed areas, and I am just wondering if the minister could explain the criteria that were used in choosing these areas and whether he is responsible for defining that as a stressed area or how those criteria come about.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Well, that is a very insightful question indeed. One certainly would not be chastised for saying: "Me too. I am a victim of a recession." A good case could be made for almost all areas, and it is not an easy choice. We do agonize long and hard because there are many candidates who say: "I want to be considered. I want my OMIP money to go from 30% to 50%." Ours is a decision based on consensus. In fact, you could address all and almost any criteria. Some of them are specifics because, after all, you have to have a location whereby exploration money would be conducive to good mineral order.
You could be, by way of example, a less fortunate area for a time, but if you have no chance of finding mineral, you would not fit the criterion of having an area which is again conducive to finding a mine. You could not turn gravel into copper or gold, so it would be foolish, ill-advised for the taxpayers of Ontario to fund entrepreneurs where there is no chance of finding a mine, because that is the ultimate goal.
There is only again so much money available. You will recall that Elliot Lake was one area that was designated, and it was agreed by everyone when Elliot Lake became a designee that the area was depressed and that you had an existing mine. Still the best way to find a mine -- it is not a secret -- is beside an existing one because there again you have the ground that is conducive, Elliot Lake, which is represented by our distinguished colleague Mr Brown.
Kirkland Lake was another area that was designated and another friend of ours, Mr Ramsay --
Mr Daigeler: A good friend.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Well, a friend to everybody, of course. Mr Ramsay represented that. It was a depressed area. There are mines there. There are mines in Nakina or in the surrounding area, Atikokan. People need a gentle push, so we have a few dollars available under OMIP and we are saying, "We have got six years to go." To answer your next question, we have six to seven years to go in Manitouwadge. It is a finite resource. It is the major employer. You cannot go across the street. There is no alternative. Mining is Manitouwadge, so maybe we can find another mine for a few dollars more and encourage people.
Your question is insightful by virtue of not only is it value for money in terms of the dollars that are generated, but it is the message, the signal, not only for the designated region but in this case for the north as a whole, saying, "Look, someone is paying attention here." Those are all criteria that are used: location, economic conditions, possibilities, potential, all in all. They are all thrown into the pot and they are subject to change. There is no specific time limitation.
Then there is the matter of adherence. Some of the programs are not subscribed to nearly to the same extent as other programs. Some of the other areas have major, major, major, huge tracks of lands that are staked already, so you do not wish to duplicate efforts. The major stakeholders, the big players are in there already, so why should the taxpayers of Ontario be asked to fork over, to come up with more dollars when you know that those limited dollars can best be used right beside or somewhere else? So it is quite a mix of criteria that lead to the decision-making.
Mr Curling: Minister, you spoke so eloquently, so passionately about the rocks in the north that, at the time when you were appointed as Minister of Mines, when the Premier separated the ministry, I for one thought that you would have had even more responsibility. But the way you spoke about mines, I said he did the right thing of appointing you as the Minister of Mines. After listening to you today, every rock came to life, you know. Every vein of gold actually glistened as you spoke, sir.
Hon Mr Pouliot: I could do a lot with those comments.
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Mr Curling: I can see around the cabinet table, as you define it, some of the challenges that you have in wrestling with the Treasurer for money, getting the fair share of what mines should have in the north. But just a few moments ago it slipped a little bit when you were talking about some of the challenges you have. There is only so much money and you say that we lost some of the chance for funds from the federal government and all that. I just want to remind you, sir, that at one time when you saw yourself as part of the problem, now you are part of the solution. You are at the table. You are the one who fights for the north. You will continue to have that life that comes to the rock.
Having seen that the previous government had put some money there -- and you commend us and commend that government for starting that process; you are quite honourable in saying that all the time -- and having this confidence in you that you will get the money that is deserving for mines in the north, when do you see them turn that curve for many of those economically depressed areas as we put the money into them? Do you have a timetable, because you know you are confident of getting the money, when they will turn that curve?
Hon Mr Pouliot: I appreciate the comment. I think with some validity, of an analogy or a parallel: If I were to -- and I know you are asking me -- if I were to ask you as a member, and you represent an urban centre, when will you meet the demand of housing, given the influx of immigrants coming into an area, given the need to address shelter for the less fortunate, if you were a minister, in fact if you were the Minister of Housing, I bet you would be hard-pressed and if you were the Minister of Mines you would have to be prophetic. Oh, you could sometimes make an educated guess about the high quote of the Canadian dollar because you export mining product. The higher the Canadian dollar, simply put, the less benefit for the Canadian and the Ontario mining sector.
High interest rates have a lot to do with it. Not only can you not build housing in times of high interest rates, but the friendly banker becomes sometimes unfriendly. These people want to get paid. They are old-fashioned. You have to deposit now and then. You cannot only withdraw, so you beat a path back and forth. It is difficult to answer. There are so many components.
I too, when searching for answers, when looking into that crystal ball, if I get help from one economist I am not too bad, but if I get it from a team of economists I have to go back and back and back again. It seems everyone has a good rationale, good substance to make up their answer. We are getting out of it. We will get out of it.
Mr Curling: When?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Mr Curling, if I knew where the price of gold will be next year, if I was certain about market gyrations, if I could guarantee where the next mine in the province of Ontario will be, if we could bank on the price of oil, you would not only take the challenge out of the exercise, but many of us would naturally find ourselves in other surroundings, not by necessity, some by choice. Others would see it as a necessity. I do not know.
I can give you some general guidelines, but they are guesstimates. You are asking, when are we getting out of the recession? The question is welcome. Your guess is as good as mine because when we get out of the recession, we will better be able to tell you about our guesstimate regarding the price of commodities, not over which we have jurisdiction but under which we operate.
Mr Curling: Minister --
The Vice-Chair: Excuse me, Mr Curling, you are out of time on this round, as you know.
Mr Curling: On a point of procedure, could I ask the minister if he would just confine his response. We love his talk, but there is a time to talk the talk and there is a time to walk the walk. I just want a point of order. He said that if he could know when. When I was the Minister of Housing and we had a program to put in place, we said precisely that we will put a rent review process at that time. When we had to buy out certain homes for radioactive soil, we said a time and we did it. So the question I ask is not being facetious. I know that he is a powerful individual at that cabinet table and I just was asking him when.
The Vice-Chair: Well, Mr Curling, your time is up --
Mr Curling: That is fine. Okay, thank you.
The Vice-Chair: -- and that was not really a point of order but we will let it slide. You will have another opportunity. We did ask the previous minister earlier today if she also would shorten her answers a little. Minister, I am only the messenger, but I am conveying to you the concern of the committee that we are very short of time. Even though with this ministry they had eight hours, the time runs out very quickly for all of these members with all of their very interesting and important questions.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Yes, I was just following the mood, Madam Chair.
The Vice-Chair: I agree too, it is wonderful to listen to you. Mr Hansen is the next person.
Mr Hansen: I am from the south and I have not been involved in mining, so maybe this will be a teaching process. I do not want, as they say, to put you between a rock and a hard place, Minister, but I have heard in the north before that the mining industry has done a lot of development in the sense of roads and railroads. In other words, if the economy of mining is down, the transportation and roads deteriorate in the sense that there is not money there to put in that particular area as one purpose. Could you comment on that at all?
Hon Mr Pouliot: What an interesting question. You are quite right, spontaneously, candidly, off the cuff. You have tied into your question all the components that make a community, especially the remote and the small communities, whose reason for being is mining. I can talk, for example -- and why not? It is vivid and it applies to your question.
The community of Manitouwadge, 5,000, nestled in the Canadian Shield: In 1956 mining started, so if you are more than 35 years old, you were not born there. But we are hoping with the advent of mining that if you are more than 65, you can establish roots still and you can live there. You are right. All the infrastructure, all of Manitouwadge, for the air that it breathes, the water that it drinks, takes its source from mining. When they discovered the first mine, a second one was added. The first one closed and the third one came into being. We were not only fortunate, but we were blessed.
When you address the road system, the road system is there for a purpose. It is either to move commodities or to move goods or to move products. If that reason for being, to put the road in place, no longer exists, of course it will die a natural death. For them there is no need to service the road. There is no need to use the road system as a vehicle for economic survival or development, because the real reason for being has been taken out of the system. So it becomes a non-event.
When you talk about roads you can talk about education, you can talk about health. They are called spinoffs, we are all aware. If you have 500 people that work at a mine site underground and on surface, naturally they will send their children to school. From time to time people will have to visit the local doctor. Certainly that is life in our small communities. The needs are family-based. People are subsidized in those communities for recreation. Every aspect of it is, but the turntable again is that people go to those places, not only because of the climate, in fact, quite the opposite, to better their lot. They go there for economic reasons, to make a few bucks more, to keep the creditors a little happier.
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Some of them go for two years, and then they pass for five years, 10, 15, 20 years, and if the mine has more longevity, then they no longer pass. They start establishing roots and they forget about the conditions when they arrived that they took for granted, that they would go along with the ore body and first they would -- you can sense that. You would export the minerals and you came from somewhere else. Then your sons and daughters learn, after so many years, and you export them too because you do not have a post-secondary education facility. Once the mine goes or if you retired first, then you would export yourself. That would be the grand finale, close the curtain. You are right. It touches every aspect of government services, the essence of life, and you have said it with your questions, so insightfully, in one nutshell.
Mr Hansen: One other short one here: With these 15 resident geologists, you are talking about a family that you have in Sudbury now. These 15 resident geologists are locally in communities where there is high mining going on. Will they be coming back to Sudbury, will they still be out in the small communities, or are there other plans for them?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Thank you. Who better than Dr Gammon, with a doctorate in geology, to address this very timely and pertinent question?
Dr Gammon: The 15 resident geologists you are referring to, there is absolutely no plan that they would be affected by the Sudbury location of the ministry. They are there to provide the interface between the division and our clients in the mineral exploration and development industry. Their offices and their positions are where that interface occurs, which is across the province in the strategic areas where mineral exploration and development and existing mining activity is going on.
Mr Hansen: I have just one question. I come from Lincoln. Is there someone down south to look after us for open-pit mines?
Dr Gammon: Yes, we have --
Mr Hansen: You just get an idea that they are not all in the north. We do have some --
Dr Gammon: We have one resident geologist located in London, one in Tweed and also one in Dorset. They divide the southern part of the province between them and they are kept extremely active too.
Mr Hansen: I was just looking at the map. There was no indication there.
Dr Gammon: That was where prospectors were working and the location of their field projects.
Mr G. Wilson: I must say, Minister, you certainly very eloquently put the conditions of our mines. In your presentation you remind us that we would be stranded without the product of our mines, and you put me in mind of an incident when I used the same example, except I was appearing before city council in Kingston appealing for their support for Bill 208, or at least to make it stronger. I would say that the pens they were using were mined by miners who were in very risky occupations and deserved their support to have safer working conditions. I did not tell them, though, that I could have used personal experience in that I grew up in Timmins, as it happens, and was constantly aware of the number of deaths that struck the parents of my schoolmates.
As well, when you pointed out that you should speak in French as a reminder of the contribution of the francophone community, you could have spoken in many languages because of the contribution of many communities working in our mines.
I grew up in Timmins and in fact went to Laurentian University in Sudbury, so I have some experience of the mining community and what it has done for our province, I was struck by Mr McLean's observation that unless we keep conditions a lot more prosperous up there, the mining companies will leave, and I almost expected him to say "and take their minerals with them." That was one of the things that I remember from my youth, that we did not get a lot of return for the mining that went on there. Although you painted the picture of the community needs that are met through mining, they are not always met in the best ways, as I can tell you again from firsthand experience.
However, I actually did spend some time in a mine too, to find out it is not a very pleasant experience, at least in an un-unionized setting, because it was pretty dangerous. The mining inspector who showed up there every once in a while usually left with a few dollars in the kitty because of the fines that he was laying out for practices that did not meet the standard, although that was in Manitoba.
I am struck, though, on page 36 of your report by your suggestion that attracting new people to the mining sector is also one of our objectives. I must say that I think that is a really admirable goal because it is, as you have already said in so much of your report, one of the constituents of our prosperity and it has to be maintained. But you also go on to say that you are trying to attract special target groups, such as natives, women and young people, so I would like some information on exactly how you are proposing to do that and some idea of what the success of the approach is.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Thank you for sharing with us your experience with not only the mining sector but Timmins. Ironically, we came back at 11:45 last night and spent the last two very full days with Catherine Lengyel, who is our executive assistant, and with Sandy McIntosh and other people in the ministry who brought us to three mine sites. We spent three and a half hours at the giant Kidd Creek Mines in Timmins yesterday.
We also met, ironically, people in the labour movement and they too talked in the same tone as you, Mr Wilson, about the right for people to organize. But, to a person, they were quite proud, along with their sisters and brothers, to belong to a bargaining unit. So that point is certainly well taken. They felt that it would give them certainly good representation in terms of working conditions and, under the tutelage of collective bargaining, a better say, because of the collectivity of the bargaining table.
We certainly do recognize the rights of workers, the need to focus on, to integrate -- no, no, never to assimilate -- but to integrate our native Canadians, first Canadians and of course first Ontarians, into the economic mainstream of the province. If you have the opportunity, it is an obligation. That is what you do. You develop a vehicle, a mechanism, whereby they too have a chance again to be like the others.
Through education you can give them the tools to defend themselves in society and to cope with society, so if you have a program -- you know, we are spending so much money on encouraging prospectors. You can target some groups and say, "We don't have too many prospectors who are natives." But many of the bands are up north. A good many of our first Canadians are up north, so why do we not make a special effort? That is what we are saying.
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Women: Joan van Kralingen, who is a professional geologist, is on secondment and works in our ministerial office. She was with the ministry, still is in some form, but she works with us. She came from a graduating class of 31 people, and Joan was one of four women. You know, we are lucky twice; first because of her qualifications, of course, and we are also cognizant that she is a rare commodity.
There is a need to target those groups again and to say mining is not only four-by-fours, not only macho country. So when you talk about natives and you talk about the role of women, we will be targeting those, mainly under the opportunity that is afforded us with the incentive programs for both prospecting and investing.
Ms Haslam: First of all, I wish to say that I am sorry I missed the beginning of the questions because I probably will ask you questions that you may have answered before and I apologize. It is just that I do a lot of research and I have been gleaning over Ontario Mining Today, the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines report. I have taken your estimates book and gone through the estimates book and I appreciate how you like to answer questions, but I have at least 25 questions that I would like to ask in the next few days. I hope I do not scare you.
Hon Mr Pouliot: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: Will we be able to accommodate this kind of uncommon interest?
Ms Haslam: Those that you will not, I will table.
The Chair: It is worthy of note that it was the government which asked for these estimates.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Yes.
The Chair: In the political rotation of selection it was in fact the government which chose. It was the last one to be chosen, but the last certainly shall be first in terms of government interest. Ms Haslam is aware that she can table all of the questions if she does not have sufficient time, and I am sure the minister and his staff would be pleased to respond in a timely, as always, courteous fashion.
Ms Haslam: Thank you.
The Chair: Do you want to number them and help us?
Ms Haslam: No. It was just a point that I wanted to make, that I do have a lot of questions. I usually do in all of these estimates and I wanted to make that very clear that I do have questions that I have all by myself.
Number one: On page 48 of your estimates, under the statistical data, it says the total number of mining claims and then below that it says, "Mining Claims Staked." It would be about a 40% drop from 1987-88, and then from 1988 to 1989 it is less again. It is about half of what it was in 1987. I ask your indulgence if I do not understand all of these things. Does that mean there has been a decrease in explorations?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Many components make up the exploration. One of them, of course, is the price of metal. For instance, yesterday -- do not quote me, I may be a dollar out or so, but not much more -- the price of gold closed at $363. So if you have what is referred to as $400 gold, in other words, the cost of production vis-à-vis what you can get for the product is not sufficient, this will deter you from going and finding mines because you are not getting a fair return on your investment. It costs you more to get the product out of the ground than you actually get for the product.
That is one very, very important component. You also have the Canadian dollar, which really affects the exploration activity. But the most important component is the law of supply and demand for your product, not on a national level, but internationally, because most of those commodities are tied to one price and one price only, if you wish. In other words, gold is selling at US$363 in Zurich, in Hong Kong, in Tokyo at all hours of the day and in New York. It is the same price all over the world.
Recession is in this case the major deterrent. People are not exploring because there is less money to do so. Flow-through shares, the federal system has been pulled. No such thing any more, so less money into the pockets of junior mining companies. Less money into the pockets of major mining companies always results in less money being made available for exploration.
Ms Haslam: Those are viable reasons and I can understand those reasons. Do you see this trend continuing or what do you see as the future in mining explorations?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Thank you for your ongoing concern. We feel that this recession will not be as prolonged nor cut as deep as some people anticipated. There has been a definite, consistent downward trend in one of the major components, which is interest rates. Lower interest rates will result in better consumer confidence, therefore more demand for big-ticket items, and big-ticket items by and large consume a large part of mineral resources, if you wish. Cars, furniture, etc, are conducive to good mineral order.
Ms Haslam: I am sorry --
The Chair: You still have the floor, Ms Haslam.
Ms Haslam: Yes. How many more minutes do I have the floor for, Mr Chair?
The Chair: You have about 12 minutes.
Ms Haslam: Is there anyone else on the list?
The Chair: Mr Hansen would like back on.
Ms Haslam: Okay, I will ask one more question then. I would like to know where you see the potential for growth in the mineral sector.
Hon Mr Pouliot: May I turn one more time to Dr Gammon? Listen very carefully and perhaps hang on every word. It is food for thought now and in the future. Potential for mineral development, Dr Gammon. Will you favour us with what you see the future as in terms of mineral potential?
Dr Gammon: There are two main areas where we would hope to see development in the future in the Ontario mineral sector. Those are the areas of industrial minerals and in base metals.
To take the last one first, the base metals traditionally have been the engine of economic growth in the province: the multi-element copper, zinc, nickel deposits. Because of the rather speculative, investment-driven, almost overheated exploration frenzy in the last 10 years, most of that has been directed at gold. Both in Ontario and in the rest of Canada our gold reserves have increased substantially and dramatically as a result of all the discoveries made during that period of time.
However, while those exploration dollars were being directed at gold, we were mining our base metal reserves and the reserves of those metals have been going down. So from a provincial policy point of view and from a national policy point of view, it would be very nice to see Canada's and Ontario's position maintained by seeing an increase in base metal exploration and therefore an increase in base metal reserves. We do as much as we can in the ministry to point the industry's attention towards that and it is happening. We are starting to get some indications of new discoveries in the area of base metals, which is very gratifying.
The other area I mentioned is industrial minerals. By comparison with some of our neighbouring jurisdictions with similar geology to ours, the perception clearly is that Ontario could do better in the area of industrial minerals. One of the ways we want to help achieve that is to increase the knowledge level and the awareness level of the industrial mineral base and potential in the province, so that people are aware that if a rock does not have shiny, metallic minerals in it that make them think of gold or copper, lead, zinc, it might very well make a very good dimension stone for putting on the outsides of buildings in downtown Toronto, or downtown New York for that matter. There is a range of other industrial minerals also that we would like to see the focus on.
So in answer to your question, Madam, the two areas where we would hope to see growth in the future would be industrial minerals and base metals.
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Ms Haslam: The reason I ask that question is on page 10 of the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines Ontario Mining Today report. I found that very interesting. I am wondering how much involvement there was in this particular area and what types of programs there were for minerals. It says, "Minerals with potential for growth." The one that I found was most interesting was clay. How much involvement is there in those programs and what kinds of programs are there? It is fine to say, "Minerals with potential for growth." How does the ministry get involved in that to bring those programs about?
Dr Gammon: Thank you very much; now I can see page 10. Industrial minerals in general are not particularly difficult to find. The big challenge of finding a new gold mine or a new copper, lead, zinc or nickel mine is that it is literally looking for the elusive needle in the haystack, and you are not sure it is in the haystack to start with. But with an industrial mineral, it tends to be a fairly large-sized body and to find it is not so much the challenge. The challenge is to take that material and purify it to the extent that it is going to be useful to somebody, and having done that, overcome the challenge of shipping it in bulk from where it is to the market in which it is going to be used.
In general, industrial minerals do not have a very high unit value. The value is in the volume that you can ship and produce. So clays are an example of that. One of the main uses for some types of clays is in paper, as a whitener, as a filler. Clearly you need a very white, pure clay if you are going to do that. I do not know if that answers your question, but those are the kinds of considerations that we have to take into account.
Ms Haslam: I did notice it said, "One company has already expressed an interest in using the Ontario materials, particularly for making made-in-Ontario products for the tourism industry," and tourism is a major area in my riding. It just interests me and I just wanted to know whether there was an ongoing program for finding new clay deposits, and these are potential growth minerals.
Dr Gammon: I have now looked at page 10. The thing that you are referring to, there was a particularly interesting program that resulted from the last federal-provincial mineral development agreement. What we were able to do there was show that by using purely indigenous materials found in Ontario you could produce very high quality bone china. We actually prepared some sets of that and had it on display in comparison with bone china imported from elsewhere. Our hope was and still is that there would be the potential in areas where those deposits are found to get an industry of that kind going. China always breaks, so there is always a market for it.
Ms Haslam: Sounds good to me. Thank you. I just wanted to know whether that was ongoing and whether those projects were still on.
Dr Gammon: Yes, that is still very much a concern of ours.
Ms Haslam: I will stop there for a minute.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Just a supplementary to the question you ask, I have just ended the actual answer. For 1990 exploration expenditures are estimated at $200 million, which is down 15% from the 1989 level which was $235 million and that is down 42% from the 1988 level which was $345 million. Exploration expenditures by junior companies are estimated to account for 28% of total exploration expenditures in Ontario in 1990 compared to 36% in 1989 and approximately 50% in 1987. In terms of claims, 1990 claims in good standing are $125,000 and that is down a full 16% from 1989 and 27% from 1988.
Ms Haslam: You see it coming back up?
Hon Mr Pouliot: It is our assessment that we are we are closer to bottom. We cannot go down that much more because all the land will become open and there is too much potential out there not to expect a reversal or certainly a stabilization. There is ground that is so conducive; for instance, the Hemlo area, it is not likely to become open to anyone. Those are the Hemlo gold-fields and you have areas around Timmins like Kidd Creek. It is just too rich to pass by, so those will stay and we can only go one way. I think it is on the upswing.
Mr Hansen: One question I have is, okay, you have this rock in your hand, this rock you are looking at, that crystal ball. I have tried to find it through the estimates here. It is fine to find gold and find these products, iron ore, whatever the case may be. Is there any research going on so that a product we already have, maybe in mining, could be used in some other area? Is there research and development in that particular area? I looked through here and I could not seem to find anything about that.
Hon Mr Pouliot: While I have less difficulty -- it is an ongoing process and I am new at this -- with the philosophy of mining, it is quite obvious that I know so little about the kind of technicalities associated with mining, so I will let Dr Gammon give you a technical answer to a technical question.
Dr Gammon: There is a couple of examples there. The Kidd Creek Mine in Timmins discovered in its concentrate that it had an element that it was not previously aware of, and has been able to turn that into an additional revenue generator. That has focused us on to the potential for that kind of thing and we might get Dr. Milne of the Ontario Geological Survey to come up to the podium and tell you just a little bit about the laboratory that the geological survey has, because it has been doing some pathfinding work in lower-level detection of elements, and in fact has made some discoveries that have had a positive economic spinoff on one of our industries.
Mr Hansen: The other thing is, I wanted to know what the dollar figure was in this particular area, the dollar figure in estimates where we are getting into this particular area.
Dr Milne: Victor Milne, the director, Ontario Geological Survey: The reference Dr Gammon is making is to some work that has been going on in our geoscience laboratories. In essence, by developing more fine techniques of analysis, our laboratory is capable of determining very low levels of rare earth elements, which are becoming increasingly important in technological applications. You see the market price of things like lanthanum going up in the context of the Gulf war, because of the technology -- chips and so forth that have been used.
The specific example I would like to refer to is in the context of bauxite ores, where essentially the element is aluminum, which is extracted. But by being able to detect the presence of these rare earth elements -- and the geoscience labs is one of the few that are capable of doing this -- we are able to assist the company with the bauxite ores and the aluminum production to determine a method of extracting the rare earth elements, so it could become an economic component of its production.
The technology is advancing in the context of being able to determine these things where we could not before. They are then capable of production in an economic way and they can then be applied in new technology, in new directions. So that that type of work is going on.
The other aspect is in, I suppose, the moving into other market sectors with existing commodities and a considerable amount of that is done by the companies themselves. They are obviously looking for alternatives. If plastic is going to replace metal in the car, then where else can we place that metal? Inco and other companies do that type of research on their own.
Mr Hansen: Coming back to the answers that I just received, I do not know if the question has been asked by Mr McLean to get back tomorrow, but it has to do with the new Mining Act, part IX, coming in where the actual environmental end of it is that, before a mine opens, you have to have a way of closing the mine down. That is going to cost dollars and cents, in a sense up front. At the very beginning, so much will have to be put away, if I am correct.
How are we going to be competitive with the mining industry in other countries like the United States? Is this coming up in the United States also? I know it is very important here in Canada and I think it is coming in the United States because the environmental impact in the end is more costly than doing it from the very beginning. This is what I can see. Could you comment on that?
Hon Mr Pouliot: Certainly. To highlight, before I ask Dr Gammon to really focus, we are talking about the Mining Act and part IX, which deals with reclamation. That is really the Wayne Gretzky of the Mining Act. It is the focus. It is our warhorse and it deals with the environment. It sets up a mechanism.
Interjections.
Hon Mr Pouliot: Allow yourselves the decency to learn something. It sets up the mechanism whereby we will be more favourable to the environment, and to put it one step further, we can all benefit. Dr Gammon has spent hours and hours drafting that kind of regulation. Will it make us more or less competitive? How does it compare with other jurisdictions? What are we doing vis-à-vis others?
Dr Gammon: The challenge of course is that mines clearly cannot be allowed to be developed if they are not going to be left in an environmentally favourable way, so what it costs a company is essentially irrelevant. If it makes us uncompetitive because we want to do that, then that would have to be the case. However, luckily it does not make us uncompetitive because other jurisdictions are applying exactly the same kinds of rules that Ontario is. The difference is Ontario is slightly ahead of the pack in terms of having defined those rules, discussed them with the industry and got them in place.
In your opening remarks, you referred specifically to California and Nevada as places where Ontario exploration dollars were in danger of draining away to. The industry has just realized that in those two jurisdictions too, very stringent reclamation requirements and financial assurance requirements are being enforced. Even in Third World countries where the perception is that we could sort of export our pollution to, clearly the prevailing mood is, "No, we also want to have it clean here too," and agencies like the World Bank are ensuring that environmental concerns are taken care of when they give loans.
All of that taken into account means that we will eventually be playing on a level playing field as far as competing for the exploration dollar is concerned. We will have to rely on our superior and exciting geology, the mining legislation we have in place and infrastructure, political stability, that sort of thing to encourage the dollars to come here.
There is a danger because we are slightly ahead of the pack, that we will be perceived to be more onerous in this respect and there could be a negative effect there for a while, but I think we should be confident that this will be a transitory effect.
The Chair: Briefly, Ms Haslam.
Ms Haslam: I would like to move for adjournment, Mr Chair.
The Chair: You could not ask for anything briefer.
Mr Brown: Mr Chair, just on a small point of order, l have not had a public opportunity to welcome the minister to his new portfolio and his new responsibilities. Mr Pouliot and I were fortunate enough to be on the mining committee, setting mining health and safety. I can remember climbing ladders at Geco Mine with him and having all sorts of interesting experiences. I would just like to welcome the minister to his new portfolio.
On that same note I would tell him that I appreciated very much his explanation of investment and how that works, and spending his entire day down at Bill 4 on rent review. I wish you would talk to Mr Cooke. Thank you.
The Chair: Now I would like to recognize the motion for adjournment which is not subject to debate. All in favour? Carried. This committee stands adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow in this room to resume these estimates.
The committee adjourned at 1744.