German Pioneers Day
Act, 1999, Bill 28, Mr
Wettlaufer / Loi de 1999 sur le Jour des
pionniers allemands, Projet de loi 28, M.
Wettlaufer
STANDING COMMITTEE ON
GENERAL GOVERNMENT
Chair /
Président
Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East / -Est PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente
Mrs Julia Munro (York North / -Nord PC)
Mr Toby Barrett (Norfolk PC)
Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain L)
Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton PC)
Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North / -Nord PC)
Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East / -Est PC)
Mr Dave Levac (Brant L)
Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina ND)
Mrs Julia Munro (York North / -Nord PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell L)
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre PC)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Viktor Kaczkowski
Staff /Personnel
Mr Michael Wood, legislative counsel
Ms Lorraine Luski, research officer, Research and Information
Services
The committee met at 1530 in committee room
1.
GERMAN PIONEERS DAY ACT, 1999 / LOI DE 1999 SUR LE
JOUR DES PIONNIERS ALLEMANDS
Consideration of Bill 28, An
Act to proclaim German Pioneers Day / Projet de loi 28, Loi
proclamant le Jour des pionniers allemands.
The Chair (Mr Steve
Gilchrist): I call the standing committee on general
government to order for the purpose of considering Bill 28, An
Act to proclaim German Pioneers Day. As you will recall, we
decided two weeks ago at the subcommittee, then ratified it with
the entire committee, that we would deal with Mr Wettlaufer's
bill today. Mr Wettlaufer has indicated he would like to make
some brief comments. I certainly would extend a similar
opportunity to all three parties, if they so desire. I'm in your
hands. We can set a maximum time limit for that, although I don't
anticipate that the comments would be long-winded. I don't want
to be presumptuous, though.
Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde
(Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): Mr Chair: definitely I'm
supporting the bill, but I need to get an answer to my question.
Does this mean that employers would have to give a day off on
that day?
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer
(Kitchener Centre): Good heavens, no.
Mr Lalonde:
That was my only question. I will support this.
The Chair:
Mr Wettlaufer, perhaps you'd like to start us off.
Mr
Wettlaufer: I'd like to thank all the members of the
committee, and you as well, Mr Chair, for hearing this bill. I
want to make a couple of comments relating to the speeches that
were made in the House during debate on private members' day.
There was a comment made by, I believe, the member for St
Catharines, Jim Bradley, that it was particularly relevant for
the Waterloo region. I really want to point out that while the
bill is relevant for the Waterloo region, it is not relevant just
to the Waterloo region; it is particularly relevant to many areas
of Ontario which have sizable percentages of German settlement:
the Niagara Peninsula, Haldimand-Norfolk and Ottawa, and
certainly the Renfrew area has a fairly large settlement of
German Canadians.
The importance of the bill is
that in the anti-German hysteria following the two wars, a lot of
German people who had contributed much to Canada's development
and to Ontario's development felt that they were second-class
citizens. I think we can understand that, but nevertheless the
time has come to correct the damage that the hysteria caused. For
instance, in the research I was doing, which may ultimately lead
to a book, I have found that many books that were supposed to
exist in libraries across the province have been destroyed. They
were destroyed some time after the First or Second World War.
Many of the German settlers had descendants who fought in the
Canadian Armed Forces in World War I and World War II, and many
of those German Canadian soldiers died, gave their lives for our
freedom and for our liberty.
I felt that this was a time
for this bill to pass, to give some credence to the German
settlement fact and what it has done. The German settlement is
the third-largest settlement of ethnic peoples in Ontario, in
fact in all of Canada. I think they would like to be
recognized.
The Chair:
Are there any further comments?
Mr Lalonde:
The only additional comment I would have is I really appreciate
the culture. I have to say that because the first time I heard
about the Oktoberfest I was in Munich. I was supposed to be there
for about an hour and finally I spent two days there, I enjoyed
it so much. A lot of people from my community travel to Kitchener
every year to participate in the celebration. We francophones in
eastern Ontario respect the Germans a lot.
One other thing: Being a
former printer myself and having had to do with the purchase of
the equipment, I have to say that the German technology was one
of the most advanced in the printing operation we had at the
Canadian government printing bureau. This is how I got to know
more about the German community. I think it shows that we
appreciate what they have done for our country.
Mr Rosario Marchese
(Trinity-Spadina): I don't think you would find any
member on this committee or in this House, in the assembly, who
would oppose this. I think everyone accepts and receives the
motion with a great deal of sympathy and support.
Just a point, though: We have
such a good history of social democracy in Germany, I just don't
know what happened to Mr Wettlaufer. It's strong there in
Germany, right? What happened in that transition from Germany to
Canada?
The Chair:
We'll consider that a rhetorical question.
Mr Marchese:
It was interesting that many years ago, when I looked at the
number of different communities that were in Canada, the Ukrainians were by far
one of the largest groups of people who settled in Canada. I
think there were about two million Ukrainian Canadians, an
incredible number of people. I didn't know that when I first saw
that figure. I think the German Canadians fall second.
Mr
Wettlaufer: Some 2.8 million to 3 million Canadians are
of German descent, a minimum of 2.8 million.
Mr Marchese:
Are they spread out politically?
Mr
Wettlaufer: About 2.5 million in Ontario.
Mr Marchese:
So it's a large number and I think most people don't know that.
That's one of the points I wanted to make. It was a surprise to
me to find out how many different groups we have, naturally, but
particularly for Ukrainians and Germans how high that number is,
and the Italians then come third after that. I suspect that
Ukrainian Canadians and Italian Canadians are going to get upset
about this, right?
Mr
Wettlaufer: I hope not.
Mr Marchese:
They're going to say, "What about me?" As usual with these kinds
of bills, there will be other people who probably would have said
we should have been more inclusive. Then the point is, where do
you stop? Naturally you have a bill to proclaim German Pioneers
Day and that will begin the process, and I'm sure other groups
will follow.
I suspect there may be some
people who will take issue with the idea of "as one of the
founding groups." Usually aboriginal Canadians are very angry at
the rest of us for talking about founding peoples, that is, the
French and the English, because aboriginal people say, "We were
here, you didn't find or found anything." I suspect there is
going to be some opposition to that particular word, not just
from aboriginal people but possibly others. We should anticipate
that there will be some disagreement with the use of that word
and/or possibly opposition to the use of that. But I'm supporting
this bill here today.
The Chair:
Any additional comments from the government side?
Mr Toby Barrett
(Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): I had the opportunity to
speak to the bill and that's in Hansard. I won't take any further
time, other than to say that my riding of Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant
has a well over 200 year history of immigration of Pennsylvania
Deutsche, German Mennonite, to our area. Hessian soldiers, allies
of the crown, have a presence in my hometown of Port Dover. More
recently, after the First and Second World Wars, much of the
Norkfolk sand plain was resettled by German people, more recent,
as I consider it, tobacco pioneers.
Very recently we had another
wave of German Mennonites returning to Canada from Mexico and
settling in the Houghton area in between my riding and Aylmer.
Their contribution to the unique agricultural requirements in my
riding is quite significant to this day. I certainly continue in
support of this. In my riding, people of German-speaking
background are number two after the British and, as I recall, in
our area those who list Dutch as their mother tongue are number
three. I don't know whether that's going to lead to another bill
down the road.
Mr Dave Levac
(Brant): I appreciate the opportunity. My apologies for
my tardiness. I was meeting with some people and tried to get
away, but you know how things go.
In support of the bill, I can
only tell you that Mr Wettlaufer and I have had some discussions
in the past, while this was first introduced, and I indicated to
him my willingness to support and act on behalf of his concerns
that this be brought to our side, as they have been, and we will
continue to do so.
1540
The interesting comment I
would make is that I am in favour of this as a celebration. We
have to recognize that these types of celebrations are (1) to
educate, (2) to celebrate in a positive way the contributions of
all citizens of this province and indeed this country, and (3), a
part which I believe is very important in this day and age, to
show some pride in what we have done in the past so our
connection to history, as Mr Wettlaufer so eloquently did in his
introduction, shows to us the importance of recognizing the
contributions of all Ontarians.
This is a good first step and
I would suggest to him, as well as to all members, that in
recognizing this some people may fear an avalanche of, "Let's
make it this day and that day." I say bring it on. Bring on that
positiveness, bring on that celebration and bring on that
education. We can only become better people if we recognize the
deeds and the good acts that all of us have contributed in our
cultural way to this province.
I congratulate Mr Wettlaufer
for bringing this good deed to our attention. We on this side, as
echoed by my colleague, will fully support this bill.
The questions that get asked
can be answered, and I'm sure as we pull through the rest of this
session, those questions will be answered and concerns laid to
rest very quickly, because I really do like a celebration.
Mr Marchese:
If I can for the record, celebration is one thing, of course, and
a lot of people in this country say, "We don't mind celebrating
our roots; what we want is equality," which is another discussion
connected to this whole issue of celebrating our roots. A lot of
people in our communities don't want the song and dance. They're
tired of it. They want to move more to issues of equality.
I wanted to tell you that
we're losing some of our international languages in our school
system, which connects to this issue, I think. A lot of the
German Canadians have kept their language, but in a globalized
economy, we should have international language skills and we're
losing them for a variety of reasons, one of which is Bill 160,
which essentially lacked funding and squeezed education to the
extent that international languages have no place in the system
any more. It's sad. That's for the record.
Mr
Wettlaufer: Chair, if I may?
The Chair:
If you dare.
Mr
Wettlaufer: German Canadians have often told me they are
very proud of the fact that they have continued their German heritage, their culture and
their language at no cost to the taxpayer.
Mr Marchese:
Shall we continue the debate?
The Chair:
Perhaps as you said, Mr Marchese, it speaks to a different
perspective than the one we're discussing here today.
You will recall that last
Wednesday was the deadline for the submission of any amendments.
The clerk advises me none were received, so with your indulgence,
if there is no further discussion, I'd like to proceed to
clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. It should be fairly
expeditious, I imagine, based on the comments we've heard so
far.
Are there any comments,
questions or amendments to section 1?
Mr Levac: To
Mr Wettlaufer, if it's permissible, Chair: There was a concern
brought up by a member of the NDP that it said "founding groups."
Was there any concern or any thought given as to whether or not
the word "founding" would be apropos or whether or not it would
be worth keeping or worth removing or anything, to avoid any
sensitivities in case anyone does have a sensitivity towards the
word "founding"?
Mr
Wettlaufer: I would have no objection to taking that
out.
Mr Levac:
That would probably require an amendment.
Mr
Wettlaufer: Yes, it would.
Mr Levac: So
I'm not prepared to ask that. But it's just my inquisitive
nature, when people bring up concerns, to see if we can get a
response. I'll defer to Mr Marchese, if he shares the concern or
if he wants to take any action. But I think it would require an
amendment, wouldn't it?
The Chair:
Our problem, Mr Levac, is that what you seem to be talking about
would require an amendment.
Mr Levac: So
I withdraw the comments. I don't know how that can be addressed,
if it can be at all.
The Chair:
Again, that's the preamble to the bill. I guess one could argue
that the substance of the bill is the actual clauses that we're
about to vote on and the preamble is more of a narrative that
simply gives the sponsors an impression of what will be done. I
think the messaging, should the bill receive third reading, would
be back in the hands of every member taking the initiative to
bring this issue forward in their communities.
Mr Levac: I
appreciate that. I'll defer that to Mr Marchese to decide how he
would want to-since he brought it up.
Mr
Wettlaufer: One of the comments that was just raised
here is that it does say "As one of the founding groups of
Ontario."
Mr Levac: I
read it that way myself, but since it was brought up I wanted to
put it on the record.
Mr Marchese:
It will bring about some concern and opposition; I have no doubt
about it. I suspect a lot of people won't know about this so it's
not going to be an issue in the earlier period, but once people
start focusing in on this possibly they'll see it. The preamble
is just as powerful as what follows, I would argue. I know "As
one of the," and who else is there-the fact that you haven't
received amendments doesn't mean that we couldn't change it here,
though.
The Chair:
With unanimous consent, yes.
Mr Marchese:
Of course. It's just a way of avoiding a problem. I just raised
it because I believe some might raise it as an issue, and do we
want that? I don't know.
Mr
Wettlaufer: I don't think it's major enough.
Mr Marchese:
If we delete the word we need another adjective to perhaps fit
into it.
Mr
Wettlaufer: Yes.
Mr Barrett:
It would be relatively facile to make this change. However, I
think it's accurate. We use the terms "immigrant," "settled,"
recognized as early settlers. I know many German people were
United Empire Loyalists. As a founding group, I think the
accuracy can't be questioned, but I know there are other
considerations.
The Chair:
Could I offer, for the committee's consideration, that it does
say "founding groups of Ontario." I think you could argue, Mr
Marchese, that as opposed to the original settlement of Canada,
Ontario as a specific political entity was created as a result of
a number of initiatives that are quite distinct from the totality
of Canada's experience. Whether or not the word "Ontario" makes a
difference to you I leave to your consideration.
Mr Marchese:
I'm just raising an issue that I know, whether it is something
that speaks to Ontario or Nova Scotia or Newfoundland, is the
same. Aboriginal people oppose language that speaks about
founding nations, and that generally means French and English.
They're not just opposed but angry at the fact that somehow these
two groups have appropriated what was theirs. Right? They were
here. They were the ones who founded it as the people who were
here. So my sense is that their opposition isn't just to that at
the national level but at any level.
We can always make a defence
for any argument, right? That's the point. You're all doing that.
I could do that too. I'm just raising the other concerns that I
know some will have. But if most of you feel comfortable with
that, we could probably proceed with this and just leave it
alone.
The Chair:
OK. Which takes us back to section 1 per se. Are there any
comments, questions or amendments on section 1? Seeing none, I'll
put the question. Shall section 1 carry? Carried.
Are there any comments,
questions or amendments proposed for section 2? Seeing none, I'll
put the question. Shall section 2 carry? Section 2 is
carried.
Section 3: Are there any
comments, questions or amendments? Seeing none, shall section 3
carry? Carried.
Shall the preamble carry?
Carried.
Shall the title carry?
Carried.
Shall the bill carry? The
bill is carried.
Shall I report the bill to
the House? Agreed.
We've probably set a new
record for time spent considering a bill. That's two firsts in
the short tenure of all of us in the session.
Mr Wettlaufer: Thank you,
everyone.
The Chair:
Thank you very much, and congratulations, Mr Wettlaufer, and all
the best during third reading. With that, the committee stands
adjourned until the call of the Chair.
