Daytime Meeting - Sessional Day 13
Evening Meeting - Sessional Day 14
Mardi
2 décembre 2003
Séance de l'après-midi - jour de session 13
Séance du soir - jour de session 14
1st Session,
38th Parliament
1re session
38e législature
PRAYERS
1:30 P.M.
PRIÈRES
13 H 30
Mr. Phillips delivered to the
Speaker a message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor signed
by his own hand, and the said message was read by the Speaker and
is as follows:-
James K. Bartleman
The Lieutenant Governor
transmits Estimates of certain sums required for the services of
the Province for the year ending 31st March 2004 and
recommends them to the Legislative Assembly.
Le lieutenant-gouverneur
transmet les prévisions de certains montants
nécessaires pour assurer les services de la province pour
l'exercice se terminant le 31 mars 2004 et les recommande à
l'Assemblée législative.
Toronto, 2nd December
2003
Toronto, le 2 décembre
2003
(Sessional Paper No. 3,
Agriculture and Food; Attorney General; Cabinet Office;
Citizenship; Community, Family and Children's Services; Consumer
and Business Services; Culture; Education; Energy; Enterprise,
Opportunity and Innovation; Environment; Finance; Office of
Francophone Affairs; Health and Long-Term Care; Intergovernmental
Affairs; Labour; Office of the Lieutenant Governor; Management
Board Secretariat; Municipal Affairs and Housing; Ontario Native
Affairs Secretariat; Natural Resources; Northern Development and
Mines; Office of the Premier; Public Safety and Security; Tourism
and Recreation; Training, Colleges and Universities;
Transportation).
(Document parlementaire
no 3, Agriculture et Alimentation; Procureur
général; Bureau du Conseil des ministres; Affaires
civiques; Services à la collectivité, à la famille
et à l'enfance; Services aux consommateurs et aux
entreprises; Culture; Éducation; Énergie; Entreprise,
Débouchés et Innovation; Environnement; Finances;
Offices des affaires francophones; Santé et Soins de longue
durée; Affaires intergouvernementales; Travail; Bureau du
Lieutenant-gouverneur; Secrétariat du Conseil de gestion;
Affaires municipales et Logement; Secrétariat des affaires
autochtones de l'Ontario; Richesses naturelles;
Développement du Nord et Mines; Cabinet du Premier ministre;
Sûreté et Sécurité publique; Tourisme et
Loisirs; Formation, Collèges et Universités;
Transports).
Ordered, That the message of the
Lieutenant Governor together with the Estimates accompanying same
be deemed to be referred to the Standing Committee on Estimates
pursuant to Standing Order 58.
The Speaker addressed the House
as follows:-
I beg to inform the House that I
have laid upon the Table the Report of the Honourable Coulter A.
Osborne, Integrity Commissioner for Ontario, responding to the
complaint of Caroline Di Cocco, M.P.P. for Sarnia-Lambton,
regarding Mr. Ernie Eves, Mr. Tony Clement, Mr. James Flaherty
and Mr. Brian Coburn. (No. 16) (Tabled November 28,
2003).
I further beg to inform the
House that I have laid upon the Table the 2003 Annual Report of
the Provincial Auditor. (Sessional Paper No. 1).
I further beg to inform the
House that I have laid upon the Table a copy of an
Order-in-Council appointing the following Members as
Commissioners to the Board of Internal Economy:-
The Speaker, who shall be
Chair;
The Honourable Rick Bartolucci,
appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council from among the
members of the Executive Council;
The Honourable David Caplan,
appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council from among the
members of the Executive Council;
The Honourable Dwight Duncan,
appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council from among the
members of the Executive Council;
Monique Smith, M.P.P., appointed
by the Caucus of the Government;
John Baird, M.P.P., appointed by
the Caucus of the Official Opposition;
Gilles Bisson, M.P.P., appointed
by the Caucus of the New Democratic Party. (Sessional Paper No.
17)
MOTIONS
MOTIONS
On motion by Mr.
Duncan,
Sur la motion de M.
Duncan,
Ordered, That the membership of
the Standing Committees for this Parliament be as
follows:
Standing Committee on
Estimates:-
Mr. Arthurs
Mr. Chudleigh
Mr. Craitor
Ms. Di Cocco
Mr. Jackson
Mr. Kular
Ms. Martel
Mr. McNeely
Mr. Milloy
Mrs. Witmer
Standing Committee on Finance
and Economic Affairs:-
Mr. Barrett
Mr. Colle
Mr. Crozier
Mr. Hoy
Ms. Marsales
Mr. Orazietti
Mr. O'Toole
Mr. Peterson
Mr. Prue
Mr. Wilkinson
Standing Committee on General
Government:-
Ms. Churley
Mr. Dhillon
Mr. Lalonde
Mr. Leal
Mr. Ouellette
Mr. Parsons
Mr. Rinaldi
Ms. Van Bommel
Ms. Wynne
Mr. Yakabuski
Standing Committee on
Government Agencies:-
Mr. Agostino
Mr. Berardinetti
Mr. Bisson
Mr. Brown
Ms. Matthews
Mr. Parsons
Mr. Qaadri
Ms. Scott
Ms. Smith
Mr. Tascona
Standing Committee on Justice
and Social Policy:-
Mr. Brownell
Mr. Craitor
Mr. Duguid
Mr. Flynn
Mr. Gravelle
Mr. Klees
Mr. Kormos
Mr. Patten
Mr. Wilson
Ms. Wynne
Standing Committee on the
Legislative Assembly:-
Ms. Cansfield
Mr. Hardeman
Ms. Jeffrey
Mr. Leal
Mr. Marchese
Mr. Mauro
Mr. Miller
Mr. Orazietti
Mr. Racco
Mr. Sergio
Standing Committee on Public
Accounts:-
Ms. Broten
Mr. Flaherty
Mr. Fonseca
Ms. Martel
Mr. Mauro
Ms. Munro
Ms. Sandals
Ms. Smith
Mr. Sterling
Mr. Zimmer
Standing Committee on
Regulations and Private Bills:-
Mr. Delaney
Mr. Marchese
Mr. Martiniuk
Mr. McMeekin
Mr. McNeely
Ms. Mitchell
Mr. Murdoch
Mr. Ramal
Mr. Ruprecht
Mr. Wong.
Mr. Duncan moved,
M. Duncan propose,
That the following schedule for
committee meetings be established for this
Parliament:-
The Standing Committee on
Justice and Social Policy may meet on:-
Monday and Tuesday afternoons
following Routine Proceedings.
The Standing Committee on
General Government may meet on:-
Monday and Wednesday afternoons
following Routine Proceedings.
The Standing Committee on
Estimates may meet on:-
Tuesday and Wednesday afternoons
following Routine Proceedings.
The Standing Committee on
Government Agencies may meet on:-
Wednesday mornings.
The Standing Committee on
Regulations and Private Bills may meet on:-
Wednesday mornings.
The Standing Committee on
Finance and Economic Affairs may meet on:-
Thursday mornings and Thursday
afternoons following Routine Proceedings.
The Standing Committee on Public
Accounts may meet on:-
Thursday mornings.
The Standing Committee on the
Legislative Assembly may meet on:-
Thursday afternoons following
Routine Proceedings.
A debate arose and, after some
time, with unanimous consent,
The House expressed its
condolence on the death of Vernon Milton Singer, Member for the
Electoral District of York Centre from June 11, 1959 to September
24, 1963; Member for the Electoral District of Downsview from
September 25, 1963 to September 17, 1975 and Member for the
Electoral District of Wilson Heights from September 18, 1975 to
June 8, 1977.
The debate continued and, at
4:00 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 30(b), the Speaker
interrupted the proceedings and put the question on the motion,
which was carried on the following division:-
Le débat se poursuit et,
à 16 heures, conformément à l'article 30(b) du
Règlement, le Président interrompt les
délibérations et met la motion aux voix
immédiatement, et cette motion est adoptée par le vote
suivant:-
AYES / POUR -
61
Agostino
Arthurs
Bartolucci
Bentley
Berardinetti
Bountrogianni
Bradley
Broten
Brownell
Bryant
Cansfield
Caplan
Chambers
Colle
Cordiano
Craitor
Crozier
Delaney
Di Cocco
Dombrowsky
Duguid
Duncan
Flynn
Fonseca
Gerretsen
Gravelle
Hoy
Jeffrey
Kennedy
Kular
Kwinter
Lalonde
Leal
Levac
Marsales
Matthews
Mauro
McMeekin
Meilleur
Milloy
Mossop
Patten
Peterson
Phillips
Pupatello
Qaadri
Racco
Ramal
Rinaldi
Ruprecht
Sandals
Sergio
Smith
Smitherman
Sorbara
Takhar
Van Bommel
Watson
Wilkinson
Wong
Wynne
NAYS / CONTRE -
20
Arnott
Baird
Bisson
Churley
Dunlop
Flaherty
Hampton
Hardeman
Hudak
Jackson
Kormos
Marchese
Martel
Munro
Murdoch
Ouellette
Prue
Runciman
Scott
Yakabuski
ORDERS OF THE
DAY
ORDRE DU JOUR
Debate was resumed on the motion
for Second Reading of Bill 5, An Act to temporarily freeze
automobile insurance rates for private passenger vehicles and to
provide for the review and regulation of risk classification
systems and automobile insurance rates for private passenger
vehicles.
Le débat reprend sur la
motion portant deuxième lecture du projet de loi 5, Loi
visant à geler temporairement les taux
d'assurance-automobile dans le cas des voitures de tourisme et
à prévoir l'examen et la réglementation des
systèmes de classement des risques et des taux
d'assurance-automobile les concernant.
After some time, pursuant to
Standing Order 9(a), the motion for adjournment of the debate was
deemed to have been made and carried.
Après quelque temps,
conformément à l'article 9(a) du Règlement, la
motion d'ajournement du débat est réputée avoir
été proposée et adoptée.
The House then adjourned at 6:00
p.m.
À 18 h, la chambre a
ensuite ajourné ses travaux.
6:45 P.M.
18 H 45
ORDERS OF THE
DAY
ORDRE DU JOUR
Mr. Duncan moved,
M. Duncan propose,
That notwithstanding any
Standing Order or special order of the House, there be a
timetable applied to the consideration of certain business of the
House as follows:
(A) Bill 2, An Act respecting
fiscal responsibility:
1. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on the day on which the bill is next
called as the first government order, the Speaker shall put every
question necessary to dispose of the Second Reading stage of the
bill without further debate or amendment;
2. Upon receiving Second
Reading, the bill shall be ordered referred to the Standing
Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs;
3. The Standing Committee on
Finance and Economic Affairs shall meet for two consecutive
sitting days commencing on the first sitting day following the
passage of Second Reading for the purpose of public hearings and
clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;
4. The Committee may meet from
10 a.m. to 12:00 noon and again following routine proceedings
until 6:00 p.m. on each of the two days;
5. At 4:00 p.m. on the second
day, those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be
deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the Committee shall
interrupt the proceedings and shall cause there to be one final
20-minute waiting period for the purpose of calling in the
members, and shall then immediately without further debate or
amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of
clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;
6. The Committee shall report
the bill to the House no later than the first sessional day that
reports from committees may be received following the second day
of the Committee's consideration of the bill;
7. In the event that the
Committee fails to report the bill as provided in paragraph 6,
the bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Committee and
reported to and received by the House;
8. Upon being reported to the
House, the bill shall be ordered for Third Reading, which order
may be called on the same sessional day;
9. There shall be 2 sessional
days of Third Reading debate on the bill;
10. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on the second day, the Speaker shall
put every question necessary to dispose of the Third Reading
stage of the bill;
11. No deferral of any vote
shall be permitted.
(B) Bill 4, An Act to amend the
Ontario Energy Board Act, 1998 with respect to electricity
pricing:
1. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on the day on which the bill is next
called as the first government order, the Speaker shall put every
question necessary to dispose of the Second Reading stage of the
bill without further debate or amendment; the vote on Second
Reading may not be deferred;
2. Upon receiving Second
Reading, the bill shall be ordered referred to the Standing
Committee on Justice and Social Policy;
3. The Standing Committee on
Justice and Social Policy shall meet at the call of the Chair for
2 days for the purpose of public hearings and clause-by-clause
consideration of the bill;
4. The Committee may meet from
10 a.m. to 12:00 noon and again following routine proceedings
until 6:00 p.m. on each of the two days;
5. At 4:00 p.m. on the second
day, those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be
deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the Committee shall
interrupt the proceedings and shall cause there to be one final
20-minute waiting period for the purpose of calling in the
members, and shall then immediately without further debate or
amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of
clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;
6. The Committee shall report
the bill to the House no later than the first sessional day that
reports from committees may be received following the Committee's
second day of consideration of the bill;
7. In the event that the
Committee fails to report the bill as provided in paragraph 6,
the bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Committee and
reported to and received by the House;
8. Upon being reported to the
House, the bill shall be ordered for Third Reading, which order
may be called on the same sessional day;
9. There shall be 1 sessional
day of Third Reading debate on the bill;
10. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on that day the Speaker shall put
every question necessary to dispose of the Third Reading stage of
the bill.
11. The vote on Third Reading
may be deferred.
(C) Bill 5, An Act to
temporarily freeze automobile insurance rates for private
passenger vehicles and to provide for the review and regulation
of risk classification systems and automobile insurance rates for
private passenger vehicles:
1. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on the day on which the bill is next
called as the first government order, the Speaker shall put every
question necessary to dispose of the Second Reading stage of the
bill without further debate or amendment;
2. Upon receiving Second
Reading, the bill shall be ordered referred to the Standing
Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs;
3. The Standing Committee on
Finance and Economic Affairs shall meet for 2 days at the call of
the Chair for the purpose of public hearings and clause-by-clause
consideration of the bill;
4. The Committee may meet from
10 a.m. to 12:00 noon and again following routine proceedings
until 6:00 p.m. on each of the two days;
5. The Committee's second day of
consideration of the bill shall be completed on or before
Tuesday, December 16, 2003;
6. At 4:00 p.m. on the second
day, those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be
deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the Committee shall
interrupt the proceedings and shall cause there to be one final
20-minute waiting period for the purpose of calling in the
members, and shall then immediately without further debate or
amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of
clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;
7. The Committee shall report
the bill to the House no later than the first sessional day that
reports from committees may be received following the Committee's
second day of consideration of the bill;
8. In the event that the
Committee fails to report the bill as provided in paragraph 7,
the bill shall be deemed to have been passed by the Committee and
reported to and received by the House;
9. Upon being reported to the
House, the bill shall be ordered for Third Reading, which order
may be called on the same sessional day;
10. There shall be 1 sessional
day of Third Reading debate on the bill;
11. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on that day the Speaker shall put
every question necessary to dispose of the Third Reading stage of
the bill;
12. No deferral of any vote
shall be permitted.
(D) Opposition Day:
1. The Official Opposition shall
be entitled to give notice of a motion for consideration pursuant
to Standing Order 42;
2. The date for consideration of
such motion shall be Wednesday, December 10, 2003.
(E) Government Notice of Motion
# 10, motion to appoint Presiding Officers:
1. When Government Notice of
Motion #10 is called, 1 sessional day shall be allocated to the
debate;
2. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on that day, the Speaker shall put
every question necessary to dispose of the motion without further
debate or amendment; the vote on this motion may be
deferred.
(F) Government Order # 2, motion
to take the Speech of His Honour the Lieutenant Governor into
consideration:
1. When Government Order #2 is
next called one sessional day shall be allocated to the
debate;
2. At 10 minutes before the
normal hour of adjournment on that day, the Speaker shall put
every question necessary to dispose of the motion without further
debate or amendment; the vote on this motion may be
deferred.
In the case of any division
relating to any proceedings A through F, the division bell shall
be limited to 10 minutes.
On a point of order being
raised, the Speaker recessed the House for 20 minutes.
On his return, the Speaker
delivered the following ruling:-
I would like to thank the Member
for Niagara Centre, the Member for Nepean-Carleton and the
Government House Leader for their submissions with respect to the
orderliness of Government Notice of Motion number 13.
Let me say at the outset that
the motion in question cannot be styled as a time allocation
motion within the meaning of our Standing Orders. Standing Order
46 sets out the criteria under which an item of business is
eligible to be subject to a time allocation motion, and not all
of the items being dealt with in the Government notice of motion
meet those criteria.
In any case, the motion on the
Order Paper does not purport to be a time allocation motion at
all under our rules as it is not to be moved under Standing Order
46. However, a question to be decided is whether a time
allocation motion under Standing Order 46 is the only vehicle
that exists to order House business.
When faced with a similar
situation in which no Standing Order existed to provide for the
timetabling of House business, Speaker Edighoffer ruled as
follows on January 23, 1989, as the Member for Nepean-Carleton
pointed out in his submission: "[t]he House has adopted the
Standing Orders which are the permanent rules for the guiding and
the control of the House in the conduct of its business. The
Standing Orders do not form a complete code of procedure for the
House to discharge its functions. They may be supplemented from
time to time by Sessional Orders or special resolutions to
facilitate the progress of business through the House. The
Standing Orders are not safeguarded by any special procedure
against amendment, repeal or suspension. They are passed by the
House by a simple majority and may be altered, supplemented or
deleted by a simple resolution in the same way."
Speaker Edighoffer went on to
note that, in 1988 in the Canadian House of Commons, Speaker
Fraser ruled that it is always in order for such a motion seeking
to set out a special procedure to be introduced as it is always
in order for the House to make the appropriate decisions relating
to its procedures.
I concur with Speakers
Edighoffer and Fraser. I do not consider it fatal to the
orderliness of a motion that it sets out a novel procedure for
which no specific Standing Order provision exists.
Where such a motion is brought
before the House, it must be considered a substantive motion and
subject to the rules which govern such motions. Standing Order 2
sets out these requirements in the definition of "substantive
motion", as follows: "Substantive motion means a motion that is
not incidental or supplementary to any other business of the
House, but is a self-contained proposal capable of expressing a
decision of the House. Examples of such motions are: the motion
for an Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, the Budget
motion, want of confidence motions on allotted days, resolutions
and motions for returns or addresses. Such motions require notice
and must be submitted to the Speaker in writing when moved,
before being put to the House for debate. No motion shall be
prefaced by recitals or preambles."
I am of the view that the motion
meets the procedural requirements of Standing Order 2. The motion
before us is therefore a substantive government motion, not
governed by debate under Standing Order 46.
Is the motion otherwise, though,
abusive of the rights of members? I have considered the following
issues in arriving at a decision:-
Debate on this motion is not
`artificially' limited and may continue for quite some length of
time, until either (a) all members wishing to speak have done so;
(b) the motion itself is time-allocated under Standing Order 46,
or (c) a motion for closure is moved and permitted by the
Speaker. Therefore, the threshold for debate time on this motion
may be more extensive than a pure time allocation
motion.
Further, in reviewing the
provision for debate time on the 6 items, I note they are at
least as generous as what recent history in this Legislature,
under its current rules, suggests would occur separately on each
of the items in the absence of time allocation motions or other
procedures to shorten debate. If time allocation under Standing
Order 46 is somehow the standard, or threshold, or litmus test if
you will, then this motion is not lacking in that
regard.
The motion provides one
sessional day of debate on an Opposition Day motion, exactly what
would occur otherwise under Standing Order 42 (indeed, the motion
is making provision for an Opposition Day debate to occur when
the Standing Orders otherwise proscribe such an
event).
The motion also provides for one
day of debate on 2 other motions - one providing for the
appointment of the Deputy Speaker and the other presiding
officers of the House, and one simply providing for an Order to
be placed on the Orders and Notices Paper to provide for a debate
on an Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. In my
experience, and as the records indicate, these motions have
typically been seen as pro forma housekeeping matters that have
been agreed to without any debate at all. The timetabling motion
therefore provides for more debate time on these 2 motions than
has historically been used.
Finally, the representations
made on this point of order convinced me that there is obvious
support among the vast majority of members of this House for
proceeding this way, this time. The 2 recognized Parties have
indicated support for proceeding this way, and the fact that this
support comes from both sides of the House is a very significant
element in helping me to arrive at a decision in this matter.
While I must take into account the rights and the will of the
minority, so must the rights and will of the majority bear at
least equal weight in my consideration.
Therefore, in the circumstances
before us at this time, and for the reasons stated above, I find
the motion to be in order.
A debate arose and after some
time, Mr. Kormos moved the adjournment of the debate, which
motion was lost on the following division:-
Il s'élève un
débat et après quelque temps, M. Kormos propose
l'ajournement du débat et cette motion est rejetée par
le vote suivant:-
Ayes - 6 Nays - 29
Pour - 6 Contre - 29
The debate continued and, after
some time, Mr. Kormos moved the adjournment of the House, which
motion was lost on the following division:-
Le débat se poursuit et
après quelque temps, M. Kormos propose l'ajournement des
débats de l'Assemblée et cette motion est rejetée
par le vote suivant:-
Ayes - 6 Nays - 30
Pour - 6 Contre - 30
The debate continued and, after
some time, Mr. Marchese moved the adjournment of the debate,
which motion was lost on the following division:-
Le débat se poursuit et
après quelque temps, M. Marchese propose l'ajournement du
débat et cette motion est rejetée par le vote
suivant:-
Ayes - 5 Nays - 29
Pour - 5 Contre - 29
The debate continued and, after
some time, Mr. Marchese moved the adjournment of the House, which
motion was lost on the following division:-
Le débat se poursuit et
après quelque temps, M. Marchese propose l'ajournement des
débats de l'Assemblée et cette motion est rejetée
par le vote suivant:-
Ayes - 6 Nays - 27
Pour - 6 Contre - 27
The debate continued and after
some time, Mr. Dunlop moved under Standing Order 47 "That this
question be now put".
Le débat se poursuit et
après quelque temps, M. Dunlop propose «Que cette
question soit maintenant mise aux voix» conformément
à l'article 47 du Règlement.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Lalonde)
did not allow the motion to be put and directed the debate to
continue.
Le Président par
intérim, M. Lalonde refuse de mettre la motion aux voix et
ordonne que le débat se poursuit.
The debate continued and, after
some time, Mr. Prue moved the adjournment of the debate, which
motion was lost on the following division:-
Le débat se poursuit et
après quelque temps, M. Prue propose l'ajournement du
débat et cette motion est rejetée par le vote
suivant:-
Ayes - 6 Nays - 13
Pour - 6 Contre - 13
The House then adjourned at
12:00 midnight.
À minuit, la chambre a
ensuite ajourné ses travaux.
le président
Alvin Curling
Speaker
SESSIONAL PAPERS PRESENTED
PURSUANT TO STANDING ORDER 39(A):-
DOCUMENTS PARLEMENTAIRES
DÉPOSÉS CONFORMÉMENT À L'ARTICLE 39(A) DU
RÈGLEMENT
Report of a Judicial Inquiry
regarding His Worship G. Leonard Obokata, A Justice of the Peace
(No. 18).
