Votes and Proceedings 1997-Dec-08 | Legislative Assembly of Ontario

No. 257 N^o 257

Votes and

Proceedings

Procès-verbaux

Legislative Assembly

of Ontario

Assemblée législative

de l'Ontario

1st Session,

36th Parliament

1^re session,

36^e législature

Monday,

December 8, 1997

Lundi

8 décembre 1997

PRAYERS

1:30 P.M.

PRIÈRES

13 H 30

The Deputy Speaker delivered the following ruling:-

Last week, the member for Algoma (Mr Wildman) raised a point of order with respect to the admissibility of Bill 164, An Act to implement job creation measures and other measures contained in the 1997 Budget and to make other amendments to statutes administered by the Minister of Finance or relating to taxation matters in light of the pending consideration of Bill 149. The member for Scarborough Agincourt (Mr Phillips) and the Government House Leader contributed to the discussion of this issue. In addition, later that same week, the member for Fort William (Mrs McLeod) raised a similar point concerning the relationship of Bill 164 to Bill 160, and last week the Chair received additional written and oral submissions.

Members cited Standing Order 51 which states: "No motion, or amendment, the subject-matter of which has been decided upon, can be again proposed during the same Session." The interpretation of this Standing Order is that the House may not revisit substantially the same question twice in the same session. That is, having decided upon something once, the matter cannot again be raised. The interpretation of this Standing Order however, is quite restrictive and there are many examples of debates on variations of the same or similar subject matters being debated more than once in a session. Indeed, on April 22 the Chair ruled on a similar question being raised relating to a time allocation motion on Bill 104. Allowing a second time allocation motion at that time underscores the very tight and restrictive interpretation that Standing Order 51 undergoes when these questions are raised. In short, if a matter before the House is not substantially the same, or identical, to one already decided upon, it is not prohibited from being considered. What the House cannot do under this Standing Order is put itself in a position of voting on a question that is for all intents and purposes, identical to one already dealt with.

Now let me relate this Standing Order to the passage of legislation. Section 3 of the Statutes Act states that, "Any Act may be amended, altered or repealed by an Act passed in the same session of the Legislature." Further, in the Twenty-First edition of Erskine May at page 470 it states, "There is now no rule against the amendment or repeal of an act of the same session. Formerly it was expressly disallowed but it has been permissible since 1850." These references are not incompatible with Standing Order 51. Standing Order 51 seeks to prevent two bills that are substantially the same from being considered in the same session. Its purpose is not to prevent consideration of legislation which further amends any bill passed in the same session.

The Chair has also reviewed the 1968 ruling of Speaker Lameroux at the House of Commons of Canada. In that case, the Speaker found a bill out of order because certain of its clauses were identical to those defeated in a previous bill at third reading. This ruling served as a guideline to the Chair because, while he found the bill out of order based on the identical clauses, he also stated that in at least one case, the fact that a clause contained similar provisions to those in the previous bill "is not sufficient to justify a ruling that they are out of order."

In view of the forgoing, with respect to Bill 164, the Chair must determine whether Bill 164 or any part of it is substantially the same as Bill 149 or Bill 160. The Chair has reviewed Bill 164 and cannot find that the changes it seeks to make to Bills 149 and 160, in their eventual existence as statutes, are changes that revisit prior decisions of this House. While Bill 164 certainly makes amendments to other bills, the Chair is not convinced that it is virtually the same bill or indeed that it contains identical clauses.

Finally, I want to address the point that since both Bill 149 and Bill 160 were time allocated, the deadline for amendment had passed thereby rendering legislation that seeks to make further amendments out of order. The Chair disagrees. The deadlines set by the time allocation motions were specific to the consideration of the various stages of those bills. The deadlines were not imposed in perpetuity for any future consideration of the legislation. An Act can be amended by subsequent legislation regardless of the terms of the passage of the original Act. Obviously, this new legislation is subject to the usual scrutiny and opportunity for debate or amendment.

For these reasons, I find that Bill 164 is in order.

On a point of order raised by the member for Algoma (Mr Wildman), the Deputy Speaker recessed the House for 10 minutes.

On her return, the Deputy Speaker ruled:-

The question raised by the member for Algoma (Mr Wildman) and the member for St. Catharines (Mr Bradley) was whether Bill 164 is out of order because it was introduced prior to Royal Assent being given to Bills 160 and 149. After careful consideration and discussions, I've come to the conclusion that this would only be an impediment to Bill 164 passing before the enactment of Bills 149 and 160, but it does not prevent Bill 164 from being introduced and considered.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DÉPÔT DES PROJETS DE LOI

The following Bill was introduced and read the first time:-

Le projet de loi suivant est présenté et lu une première fois:-

Bill 172, An Act to amalgamate The Toronto Hospital and The Ontario Cancer Institute and to amend the Cancer Act. Mr S. Gilchrist.

Projet de loi 172, Loi visant à fusionner l'Hôpital de Toronto et l'Institut ontarien du cancer et à modifier la Loi sur le cancer. M. S. Gilchrist.

The following Bill was introduced, read the first time and referred to the Standing Committee on Regulations and Private Bills:-

Le projet de loi suivant est présenté, lu une première fois et déféré au Comité permanent des règlements et des projets de loi privés:-

Bill Pr94, An Act respecting The Jamaican Canadian Association. Mr M. Sergio.

MOTIONS

On motion by Mr Hodgson,

Sur la motion de M. Hodgson,

Ordered, That, notwithstanding Standing Order 95(d), Mr Guzzo and Mr Grimmett exchange places in the order of precedence for private members' public business.

DEFERRED VOTES

VOTES DIFFÉRÉS

The deferred vote on the motion for Third Reading of Bill 98, An Act to promote job creation and increased municipal accountability while providing for the recovery of development costs related to new growth was carried on the following division:-

La motion portant troisième lecture du projet de loi 98, Loi visant à promouvoir la création d'emplois et à accroître la responsabilité des municipalités tout en prévoyant le recouvrement des coûts d'aménagement liés à la croissance, mise aux voix sur le vote différé, est adoptée par le vote suivant:-

AYES / POUR - 68

Arnott Harnick Palladini

Baird Hastings Parker

Barrett Hodgson Pettit

Beaubien Hudak Preston

Brown Jackson Rollins

(Scarborough West) Johns Runciman

Carr Johnson Saunderson

Chudleigh (Brantford) Shea

Clement Johnson Sheehan

Cunningham (Don Mills) Skarica

Danford Johnson Smith

DeFaria (Perth) Snobelen

Doyle Jordan Spina

Ecker Kells Stewart

Eves Klees Tilson

Fisher Leach Tsubouchi

Flaherty Leadston Turnbull

Ford Marland Wettlaufer

Fox Martiniuk Wilson

Froese McLean Witmer

Galt Munro Wood

Gilchrist Mushinski (London South)

Grimmett Newman Young

Guzzo O'Toole

Hardeman Ouellette

NAYS / CONTRE - 30

Bartolucci Gravelle McLeod

Boyd Hampton Miclash

Bradley Hoy Morin

Caplan Kennedy Patten

Cleary Kwinter Phillips

Colle Lalonde Pupatello

Conway Laughren Ramsay

Curling Lessard Sergio

Duncan Marchese Silipo

Gerretsen Martel Wildman

And the Bill was accordingly read the third time and was passed.

En conséquence, ce projet de loi est lu une troisième fois et adopté.

PETITIONS

PÉTITIONS

Petition relating to Stopping the Funding of Abortions (Sessional Paper No. P-93) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr W. Lessard.

Petition relating to Support for all current forms of black bear hunting (Sessional Paper No. P-275) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr G. Leadston.

Petition relating to Enacting legislation to require women to wear tops in public places (Sessional Paper No. P-278) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr B. Wood (London South).

Petition relating to Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act (Sessional Paper No. P-313) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr T. Hudak.

Petition relating to Chiropractic health care (Sessional Paper No. P-327) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr R. Bartolucci.

Petitions relating to the Public Accountancy Act (Sessional Paper No. P-336) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr G. Kennedy and Mrs L. Ross.

Petitions relating to Restoring funding levels to Malden Park and refurbishing Windsor Western hospital as a chronic care facility (Sessional Paper No. P-338) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr J. Gerretsen and Mrs S. Pupatello.

Petition relating to Red Cross Homemakers (Sessional Paper No. P-339) (Tabled December 8, 1997) Mr D. Galt.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Morin) informed the House that, in the name of Her Majesty the Queen, Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor had been pleased to assent to the following bills in her office:-

Le président par intérim, M. Morin avise l'Assemblée qu'au nom de Sa Majesté la Reine, Son Honneur la lieutenante-gouverneure a eu le plaisir de sanctionner le projet de lois suivant dans son cabinet:-

Bill 98, An Act to promote job creation and increased municipal accountability while providing for the recovery of development costs related to new growth.

Projet de loi 98, Loi visant à promouvoir la création d'emplois et à accroître la responsabilité des municipalités tout en prévoyant le recouvrement des coûts d'aménagement liés à la croissance.

Bill 140, An Act to establish the Financial Services Commission of Ontario and to make complementary amendments to other statutes.

Projet de loi 140, Loi créant la Commission des services financiers de l'Ontario et apportant des modifications complémentaires à d'autres lois.

Bill 149, An Act to continue the reforms begun by the Fair Municipal Finance Act, 1997 and to make other amendments respecting the financing of local government.

Projet de loi 149, Loi continuant les réformes amorcées par la Loi de 1997 sur le financement équitable des municipalités et apportant d'autres modifications relativement au financement des administrations locales.

Bill 152, An Act to improve Services, increase Efficiency and benefit Taxpayers by eliminating Duplication and reallocating Responsibilities between Provincial and Municipal Governments in various areas and to implement other aspects of the Government's "Who Does What" Agenda.

Projet de loi 152, Loi visant à améliorer les services, à accroître l'efficience et à procurer des avantages aux contribuables en éliminant le double emploi et en redistribuant les responsabilités entre le gouvernement provincial et les municipalités dans divers secteurs et visant à mettre en oeuvre d'autres aspects du programme «Qui fait quoi» du gouvernement.

Bill 160, An Act to reform the education system, protect classroom funding, and enhance accountability, and make other improvements consistent with the Government's education quality agenda, including improved student achievement and regulated class size.

Projet de loi 160, Loi visant à réformer le système scolaire, à protéger le financement des classes, à accroître l'obligation de rendre compte et à apporter d'autres améliorations compatibles avec la politique du gouvernement en matière de qualité de l'éducation, y compris l'amélioration du rendement des élèves et la réglementation de l'effectif des classes.

Bill 161, An Act to provide fairness for parents and employees by providing remedies relating to the province-wide withdrawal of services by teachers between October 27 and November 7, 1997 and to make a complementary amendment to the Education Act.

Projet de loi 161, Loi favorisant le traitement équitable des parents et des employés en prévoyant des recours à la suite du retrait de services par les enseignants à l'échelle de la province entre le 27 octobre et le 7 novembre 1997 et apportant une modification complémentaire à la Loi sur l'éducation.

Bill 167, An Act to change the name of the geographic township of Creighton in the Territorial District of Sudbury to Creighton-Davies, and to make a consequential amendment to the Territorial Divison Act.

Projet de loi 167, Loi visant à remplacer le nom du canton géographique de Creighton dans le district territorial de Sudbury par celui de Creighton-Davies, et apportant une modification corrélative à la Loi sur la division territoriale.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ORDRE DU JOUR

A debate arose on the motion for Second Reading of Bill 164, An Act to implement job creation measures and other measures contained in the 1997 Budget and to make other amendments to statutes administered by the Ministry of Finance or relating to taxation matters.	Il s'élève un débat sur la motion portant deuxième lecture du projet de loi 164, Loi visant à mettre en oeuvre des mesures de création d'emplois et d'autres mesures mentionnées dans le budget de 1997 et à apporter d'autres modifications à des lois dont l'application relève du ministère des Finances ou qui traitent de questions fiscales.
After some time, pursuant to Standing Order 9(a), the motion for the adjournment of the debate was deemed to have been made and carried.	Après quelque temps, conformément à l'article 9(a) du Règlement, la motion d'ajournement du débat est réputée avoir été proposée et adoptée.

The House then adjourned

at 6:00 p.m.

À 18 h, la chambre a ensuite

ajourné ses travaux.

6:30 P.M.

18 H 30

With unanimous consent, the House agreed to consider the motion for Second Reading of Bill 172, An Act to amalgamate The Toronto Hospital and The Ontario Cancer Institute and to amend the Cancer Act.

A debate arose on the motion for Second Reading of Bill 172, An Act to amalgamate The Toronto Hospital and The Ontario Cancer Institute and to amend the Cancer Act.	Il s'élève un débat sur la motion portant deuxième lecture du projet de loi 172, Loi visant à fusionner l'Hôpital de Toronto et l'Institut ontarien du cancer et à modifier la Loi sur le cancer.
After some time, the motion was declared carried and the Bill was accordingly read the second time and Ordered for Third Reading.	Après quelque temps, la motion est déclarée adoptée et en conséquence, ce projet de loi est lu une deuxième fois et ordonné pour la troisième lecture.

With unanimous consent the following Bill was read the third time and was passed:-

Avec le consentement unanime, le projet de loi suivant est lu une troisième fois et adopté:-

Bill 172, An Act to amalgamate The Toronto Hospital and The Ontario Cancer Institute and to amend the Cancer Act.

Projet de loi 172, Loi visant à fusionner l'Hôpital de Toronto et l'Institut ontarien du cancer et à modifier la Loi sur le cancer.

Debate was resumed on the motion for Second Reading of Bill 139, An Act to promote the conservation of fish and wildlife through the revision of the Game and Fish Act.	Le débat reprend sur la motion portant deuxième lecture du projet de loi 139, Loi visant à promouvoir la protection du poisson et de la faune en révisant la Loi sur la chasse et la pêche.
After some time, the motion was declared carried and the Bill was accordingly read the second time and Ordered referred to the Standing Committee on General Government.	Après quelque temps, la motion est déclarée adoptée et en conséquence, ce projet de loi est lu une deuxième fois et déféré au Comité permanent des affaires gouvernementales.

With unanimous consent, Mr Harnick moved that Bill 139, An Act to promote the conservation of fish and wildlife through the revision of the Game and Fish Act be considered by the Standing Committee on General Government for 1 day only at its regularly scheduled meeting times on Thursday, December 11, 1997 and that the committee be authorized to meet beyond its normal adjournment time to complete clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill on that day.

The question, having been put on the motion, was declared carried.

Cette motion, mise aux voix, est déclarée adoptée.

A debate arose on the motion for Second Reading of Bill 120, An Act to reduce red tape by amending the Mining Act.

Il s'élève un débat sur la motion portant deuxième lecture du projet de loi 120, Loi visant à réduire les formalités administratives en modifiant la Loi sur les mines.

After some time, the question having been put, the Acting Speaker (Mr Johnson (Perth)) declared his opinion that the Ayes had it, and a recorded vote having been demanded,

Après quelque temps, la motion mise aux voix, le président par intérim, M. Johnson (Perth) déclare qu'à son avis les voix favorables l'emportent et un vote inscrit a été exigé.

The Acting Speaker directed that the Members be called in, for which purpose the division bells were rung.	Le Président par intérim donne des directives pour convoquer les députés et la sonnerie d'appel est retentit à cette fin.
During the ringing of the bells, the Acting Speaker addressed the House as follows:-	Pendant la sonnerie d'appel, le Président par intérim s'adresse à l'Assemblée en ces mots:-

I have received a request from the Chief Government Whip, under Standing Order 28(h), that the vote on the motion for Second Reading of Bill 120, An Act to reduce red tape by amending the Mining Act be deferred until Tuesday, December 9, 1997.

J'ai reçu une requête du Whip en chef du gouvernement, conformément à l'article 28(h) du Règlement, que le vote sur la motion portant deuxième lecture du projet de loi 120, Loi visant à réduire les formalités administratives en modifiant la Loi sur les mines liés à la croissance soit différé jusqu'au mardi 9 décembre 1997.

Therefore the vote is accordingly deferred.

En conséquence, le vote est différé.

Mr Harnick moved, That the House do now adjourn.	M. Harnick propose que l'Assemblée ajourne les débats maintenant.
The question, having been put on the motion, was declared carried.	Cette motion, mise aux voix, est déclarée adoptée.

The House then adjourned

at 9:15 p.m.

À 21 h 15, la chambre a ensuite

ajourné ses travaux.

le président

Christopher M. Stockwell

Speaker