33e législature, 1re session

L111 - Thu 6 Feb 1986 / Jeu 6 fév 1986

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES (CONTINUED)


The House resumed at 8 p.m.

House in committee of supply.

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES (CONTINUED)

On vote 801, ministry administration program; item 1, main office:

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: First I will give my response to the member for Kenora (Mr. Bernier). The cabinet committee on northern development will consider a wide range of northern issues and proposals. This cabinet committee is not intended to be the forum for reviewing northern Ontario regional development applications. As I said before, this committee will be meeting with the regional development councils that will be forming starting in a few weeks. At the same time, it will listen to proposals from them and try to implement new initiatives for the north.

When reviewing the Nordev program, we will look at the Northern Ontario Development Corp. and the funds that are needed to support our northern programs. I have been assured of the support of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. O'Neil) on this point. After consultation with the people of the north, my ministry will probably recommend changes on NODC to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, because we feel there should be a new direction there too.

In response to the member for Kenora on winter roads, the northern Ontario resources transportation committee will continue to fund the road system. The NORT committee, as he knows, has assumed funding responsibility for the Pehtabun network, and I am prepared to consider proposals for that system's expansion. The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines and the Ministry of Transportation and Communications are studying routing alternatives for Big Trout Lake and Wunnummin Lake. NORT will continue to look to the federal government to provide financial assistance for initial construction activities.

Yesterday I discussed with my friend Mr. Crombie putting up more money for those roads, in the sense they put money up for the works program. My ministry will be prepared to continue the administration and maintenance of those roads, because we are having problems getting that together this year. As the member knows, sometimes Ottawa wants to cut everything. That is one of the reasons I met with Mr. Crombie yesterday to have an hour's discussion with him on native issues, and that was one we discussed.

That is my response to the member for Kenora. I will now respond to the member for Algoma (Mr. Wildman), who made a number of comments about the problems of northern Ontario. Many of those are similar to my view of things in our region. For example, on the unemployment statistics, I know that the unemployment numbers in the official federal statistics understate the problem. They do not include a lot of native unemployment. They do not take into account the rise in the welfare cases in many northern communities. Northerners know the real figures, and I will be working with them to improve them.

Perhaps the main difference between the member and myself is that I am more optimistic about our ability to do something about the challenges, with his help and the help of other northerners.

Another difference between the member and myself is that he is perhaps too quick to criticize the private sector for the current difficulties in the north. As a businessman, I know only too well the pressures that world competition has imposed on the north's primary industry.

Every industry, including the one I was in, made mistakes. So did governments. We were all caught in the squeeze of world competition. Now, the challenge is to respond quickly and co-operatively to these pressures. It will do no good to look for scapegoats, either in the corporations, in the labour movement, in the previous provincial government or in the federal government.

The member is correct in saying that many of the resource companies did well during the commodity boom; so did governments. Taxes paid by the mining industry rose dramatically in the mid-1970s. The government of the day could have used some of that windfall to make provision for a rainy day. The fact is, it did not. Now we are playing catch-up ball with the help of northerners, including the member.

Northerners -- companies, unions, communities -- will have to pull together if we are to succeed. It is tempting to look at the creation of new crown corporations to deal with northern economic development, but the experience elsewhere is not encouraging.

The answer lies in co-operation, and I have started a process of real consultation on this basis.

The member raised a number of specific points. He asked what ideas we have to improve the situation. This government has many ideas, but we want to develop these in direct consultation with northerners and not impose them without discussion.

In the near future, a few weeks or a month, I will be presenting to the cabinet committee on northern development a document on how we see the north in the future. It will be a 10-year priority. This will be the basis on which the committee can begin its work.

This document is already in the hands of my deputy minister. He is already talking with other deputy ministers to try to see where we are going. I want to remind the member, however, that this document will be only a start for the committee. We could add to it or delete some things in it if the member does not like it. This study of what we feel are the problems in the north and where we should go was begun in September. We are prepared to make that public in a few weeks.

That is why we are forming regional development councils and that is why a responsive cabinet committee on northern development has been created.

The member for Algoma is a northerner himself, and is a member of the committee on resource-dependent communities, which I recently announced.

He has a unique opportunity to put forward realistic ideas for consideration, and I hope he does. I encourage him to table with the committee some of the suggestions he has made in these estimates debates for critical review. If the committee agrees with his suggestions, they will be passed to me for consideration and I will welcome this.

8:10 p.m.

The member has other comments and suggestions. One of these relates to the Fahlgren commission. He worries that nothing has happened. On the contrary, lots is happening. The member for Algoma has suggested a comprehensive response be prepared.

Rather than wait another eight years, this government is acting. Many of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Northern Environment have already been dealt with, and those others that fall within the mandate of line ministries are being dealt with by them as quickly as possible.

While we still have work to do to address issues raised by the royal commission, it is important to know what has already been done:

We have pushed successfully for the Grassy Narrows and Islington settlement, an issue that started long ago;

The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines has been created;

Government is committed to a meaningful two-way form of public participation. Regional development councils in the north are currently being established by my ministry;

A new cabinet committee on northern development and a $100 million northern development fund have been created;

The Ministry of Citizenship and Culture has established a native economic support program of $3 million;

The Ministry of Natural Resources has announced an independent audit of forest resources by Dr. Baskerville. I invite the member to talk to him. I understand he believes he has ample scope to do his job;

The Ministry of Natural Resources has announced a new approach to the provision of land for new reserves and expansions to existing reserves in the Nishnawbe-Aski nation;

A memorandum of understanding with the Nishnawbe-Aski nation is currently being negotiated and will serve to initiate negotiation of self-government covering many of the issues raised by Fahlgren;

A new $3-million native economic support program, through the Ministry of Citizenship and Culture, has been announced;

Current forest management practices of the Ministry of Natural Resources are based on a sustained yield concept, including forest management agreements;

The Ministry of Natural Resources uses the best seedlings available for regeneration; Forest management agreements are continuing to be signed as funding allocations permit. It is expected that 75 per cent of licences will be covered by 1988;

The Mining Tax Act is being reviewed. We are reviewing it with the people of the north and have initiated some presentations with the native people first because, by the end of a few months, the native problem with respect to mining will be part of the Mining Tax Act;

Research into rock bursts is part of the federal-provincial mining agreement signed recently;

The latest pollution abatement technology and techniques are currently used;

Support for the mining industry has been generous, including such programs as the Kirkland Lake initiatives program, the Black River-Matheson multi-year geological survey and Northern Ontario geological survey and exploration assistance in the Opapamiskan area;

The importance of tourism to the north has been recognized by the government and efforts for co-ordinated activities are currently being addressed by officials of the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation, the Ministry of Natural Resources and my ministry. Those three ministries are part of this northern development committee;

A new investigation and enforcement branch of my ministry has been established and is operational through regional offices;

Passage of the spills bill and establishment of the Environmental Compensation Corp. provide for prompt compensation of pollution victims in cases of sudden, accidental pollution events;

New environmental assessment pre-submission consultation guidelines were published;

Bump-up provision is currently part of the class environmental assessment process;

Much has been done to build and improve transportation facilities, some of which were started by the previous government, such as remote airstrips and Northern Ontario resources transportation committee roads, health facilities, 24-hour ambulance and services to the elderly. We intend to do more in these areas;

We are establishing a mechanism for ongoing consultation with native groups on such matters as the new Mining Act. We have been very encouraged by discussions on native issues with mining companies, but we know there is more to do. We will be working with other ministries, with northerners, including natives, and with the federal government, to address issues that Mr. Fahlgren identified.

One thing we are going to look at in the next month with the federal government and the Minister of Education (Mr. Conway) is what Mr. Fahlgren discussed about a school in the north. We are looking at the Sioux Lookout radar base, like the one at Sudbury and the one at Lowther, that will be closed down in the next year. We are going to look at that area for a trade school and other schooling for the natives of that area in the northwest.

The member for Algoma has suggested that only the name of the ministry was changed. I can assure him this is a new ministry with new thrusts. I suggest he watch us carefully and he will see the results. If he had been with me in the last few months, I have met probably more than 200 politicians from the area and they --

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Sometimes they do not care about the north. Let them talk and we will talk together here.

In my consultations with the chamber of commerce and the mayors and reeves, they tell me they are very satisfied with what is going on. especially with what we are doing in the field of tourism and development, and the consultation on top of that. That is what they want, and we are going to continue this process.

The use of an order in council to assign duties to a minister is not a "strange administrative tactic" as the member for Algoma suggested. It is specifically provided for under the Executive Council Act and has been used in the past. The member wanted to know why we changed the name through order in council.

Amending the Ministry of Northern Affairs Act quickly was not practical. We could change the name but many new provisions would have to have been drafted and introduced to reflect the new development thrust of the ministry and to distinguish between the mining activities that continued to be administered by the Ministry of Natural Resources and those administered by my ministry. Our intention is to have a Ministry of Northern Development and Mines Act for introduction in the early hart of 1986. This will provide an opportunity for further debate.

The member also had a question about what we are going to do with Minaki Lodge. There is nothing to be gained and much to be lost in dwelling further on Minaki Lodge's past. Now that it is completed and operating, all parties should look to ways of maximizing the benefits of Minaki Lodge for all Ontarians. There is both a domestic and international tourist demand for the outdoors experience the north can offer, if it is provided through a quality full-service facility.

Overall seasonal occupancy rates are approaching 75 per cent and July and August occupancy rates are close to 90 per cent. August 1985 occupancy rates were slightly lower than in 1984, but this is attributable to poor weather. and in addition the lodge had almost 20 per cent more rooms. Occupancy rates are high considering Minaki Lodge cannot overbook because of a shortage of alternative accommodation in the area.

If members opposite look at the figures, overall occupancy from June to October in 1983 was 59.9 per cent, from May to October in 1984 73.6 per cent and from April to November in 1985 72.5 per cent. July 1985 was as high as 87.9 per cent and August 1985 was a little bit lower than the year before at 88.6 per cent.

8:20 p.m.

I agree the previous government's response to a problem was to study it to death without any action ever being taken. However, if we are not going to impose solutions on northerners, they must be consulted to ensure that they will be appropriate made-in-the-north solutions.

That is why, when the committee on resource-dependent communities, of which the member for Algoma is a member, was established, it was given a short three-month mandate to recommend realistic policies and programs to the government for consideration.

I have given Ed Thompson, too, a very short time in which to report back to me on the junior mine financing issue.

There was some discussion of economic cycles by my friend the member for Algoma. The exposure of northern Ontario communities to the cycles of the global economy and world commodity prices is a concern of all the members of this House. Surely the member for Algoma does not expect the government of Ontario to control international commodity prices. What this government can do is develop policies and programs to cushion the impact on resource-dependent communities.

Mr. Martel: I have been hearing that gobbledegook for years.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: Attendez un peu. Ça ne presse pas, là.

That is why the committee on resource-dependent communities was established with broad northern representation, including the member for Algoma, to recommend realistic made-in-the-north policies and programs for the government to implement.

One cannot change the world in one day, the member knows that. Most of the time, just giving money is not a solution either. We must try some other place.

I am looking forward to the committee's recommendations on how to make the resource industries more competitive and how to diversify the economy of these communities.

I was a business man in the north. I know what has to be done.

Mr. Martel: That is a southern boy's philosophy.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: That is my philosophy because I owned a business in the north. I spoke to the Americans too. When recession arrived, I worked through that dilemma. We lost $3 million in one year and paid $1 million of interest at the bank.

The possibility of mines closing is something this government has recognized and has already taken some action on. Last December I announced the creation of an advisory committee on resource-dependent communities to find ways to help northern communities that depend upon a single resource for their livelihood. The member for Algoma is a member of this committee, and I am confident that through his efforts and those of the other members of the committee specific and realistic policies and programs will be recommended for consideration by this government.

I am looking forward to receiving the recommendations of this committee in the next few months.

There was some discussion about a roving northern affairs officer by the member for Kenora and the member for Algoma. First, I have met here and in the north with many native groups, with at least 30. I am encouraged by these meetings and I believe the natives are too.

I have appointed Frank Beardy, deputy chief of the Muskrat Dam Band, as my special assistant, with an office here and in Thunder Bay, to help me and my ministry in native issues. I will use this office myself at least once a month to meet with the people of that area.

The member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel) refers to southern-oriented policies. One of the reasons I entered provincial politics was my concern that the north was not getting its fair share of economic activity and northerners were not getting their viewpoints listened to at Queen's Park. This government has already demonstrated its commitment to giving northerners access to decision-making by establishing a cabinet committee on northern development; regional development councils; a $100-million northern development fund; and by putting the Minister of Northern Development and Mines on the important cabinet committees on economic policy, social policy, justice, native affairs, race relations and the policy and priorities board.

Members of the cabinet committee on northern development have already been to Thunder Bay and Englehart. They also met after the Timmins cabinet meeting with local groups from that area. We intend to make more trips to northern centres. Concerning regional development councils, my friend the member for Algoma said he thought they would not have enough clout, but I am telling him they will have clout. They will be a key sounding board for development strategies and programs in the north. I will be asking them for ideas on a range of issues from tourism to agriculture. Their recommendations will be closely considered by me and by the cabinet committee on northern development.

I will be seeking nominees for this council, from whom a broadly representative council of nine to 12 members will be selected. This process has been started for the Atikokan, Thunder Bay and Armstrong area council in the northwest and for the Hearst, Iroquois Falls and Highway 11 corridor area in the northeast.

When I became minister I found that too little money had been put aside for the northern Ontario regional development program. My first job was to find the dollars to keep it going while we decided what best served northern business needs.

I did this. There is now ample money available for Nordev for the foreseeable future. I have now asked for a review of Nordev, and this is under way. I also intend to ask the regional development councils for their view on Nordev and possible successor programs.

The member for Algoma asked a question about the pulp and paper industry modernization. Many communities in northern Ontario are dependent upon the forest products industry for their livelihood. It is important that this industry remain healthy and internationally competitive. The sluggishness of the international pulp and paper markets has caused the industry to struggle. More efforts are needed by industry as well as by government to maintain our internationally competitive position.

I believe it is appropriate to have a cooperative effort between the public and private sectors to ensure the stability of major industries in northern Ontario. Members can be assured that any public funding will be provided only after very careful consideration and after we are sure the funds are being spent in the public's long-term interests.

The member for Algoma asked what progress the government had made towards implementing the Liberal Party platform. I do not know why he asked that, because what we have passed during the last three months was all according to the Liberal Party platform.

Mr. Martel: Baloney. The minister cannot even say that with a straight face.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It is 99.9 per cent. We may have established a different philosophy, but they are the same words.

While it is still early in our mandate, significant steps have already been taken to outline the direction I want this ministry to take. Priority platform items have already been initiated. The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines was established, an independent forest audit was commissioned, a northern development fund was established to strengthen resource industries and to diversify the northern economy, a study of north-south gasoline price differentials is under way and the northern medical travel program is in full swing.

The ultimate judges of how well we have worked with northerners to develop the economy in the north will be the people of northern Ontario. I am confident of a positive verdict. I am hearing from northerners that they are pleased with what we have done so far. They especially like the fact that they are being consulted.

There was another concern about there not being enough time for the forest audit. The responsibility for the independent forest audit rests with my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Kerrio). I am sure he is confident that sufficient time has been provided.

8:30 p.m.

This task is being undertaken by Dr. Baskerville, who has an international reputation in his profession. I do not believe he would have taken on the assignment if he had not been comfortable with the time he had been given. My deputy minister and I will meet with him next week or the week after to see where he is going.

I heard a few comments from the member for Algoma and the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren). I want to make sure this audit is done with the Liberal ideas we have put into the program. We will try to follow them as closely as possible.

Mr. Bernier: The minister is taking over from the Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I am not taking over.

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: We will do it together, will we not?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The minister is right.

Mr. Bernier: They are so confused. They do not know who is in charge over there.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The member should not worry about the confusion. Ask the people in the north what they are saying about us.

Mr. Bernier: They are so busy patting themselves on the back they cannot do anything.

Mr. Martel: Confusion is no novelty to the member for Kenora.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I will let them discuss it a little bit. They are fighting all the time too.

Mr. Martel: The former minister saw nothing wrong with northern development.

Mr. Pierce: They are not going to support the minister for too long, so he should not get too close to them.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: We will see.

Mr. Pierce: They have only been friends for a short time.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: They were friends with the Liberal Party in the 1930s and up to 1948. Do not worry. There were lots of Liberal members before 1948 and federally there were lots too. It is only a matter of time. Look how the polls go. The member should not feel too secure.

The member for Algoma believes the government should use a heavy hand to force industry to reinvest its profits in northern Ontario. This government does not believe in industrial development by edict and it does not believe in imposing solutions on northerners. We believe in consultation and co-operation. That is why we have established broadly based committees of northerners to develop made-in-the-north solutions.

For example, the committee on resource-dependent communities has opposition members, business people, academics and unionists. One of their tasks is to recommend realistic policies to strengthen the northern economy.

Mr. Martel: What kind of baloney is this?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Northern industry will reinvest in the north if it is seen as a region providing a competitive environment for investment.

Mr. Martel: It has never invested.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Does the member know what he is talking about?

Mr. Martel: Yes, I know what I am talking about; I know the record of the whole resource-extraction industry.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: Voyons donc. In the lumber industry and pulp and paper we always get our money back. The member knows himself. He is talking about one company. How much money do they spend in Sudbury on mining?

Mr. Martel: That is primary extraction. There is nothing beyond extraction in the north. That is the problem.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: There is not just mining in the north. There is lumber and pulp and paper. The member knows that. We do everything there.

Mr. Martel: They extract and take out more than they process there. The minister sounds just like the Tories.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. D. R. Cooke): Order. The members will allow the minister to finish.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Sounds like the Tories.

Mr. Martel: That is the speech the member for Kenora used to make.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: C'est correct. Prenez-le comme ça. That is the member's problem. If that is the way he takes it, it is okay. What can I do? I cannot change him. How can I change him? I will tell somebody else.

Mr. Martel: There was never any secondary industry in the north.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: Vous ne parlez que de mines, soit Falconbridge ou l'autre. Talk about other things in the north. There is not only mining in the north. Come on.

Mr. Martel: I will. If the minister sits down, I will.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: On voit qu'on n'a pas d'argent en banque, des compagnies.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: No, I am not going to change.

Mr. Pierce: It is hard to tell who your friends are nowadays.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: There was some discussion about multinational corporations. I am concerned that large multinational corporations in northern Ontario be good corporate citizens. These companies are facing severe competitive pressures, and it does no good to place unrealistic burdens on them at a time when profits are low or nonexistent.

They have their part to play in stabilizing and improving the northern economic base, as do communities in which they operate and also the federal and provincial governments. The members can be sure this government will play its part.

A question was asked about how regional development councils will respond. They do need proposals to respond to, and this will be done. The RDCs will be expected to be more than reactive; they will equally be expected to develop new ideas and to forward proposals to the government that address particular issues and opportunities in their respective regions.

A question was asked about the strengthening of the resource industries. The member for Algoma expressed a concern that we all share in this House, which is to ensure that the backbone of the northern Ontario economy, the resource industries, remain strong and internationally competitive. The way the province can best help these industries to remain strong is to provide an investment climate that encourages reinvestment in these industries. Vous avez compris?

Mr. Martel: I understand. It is not going to change a thing.

Interjection.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: On va voir. Attendez un peu. Ça fait trois mois qu'on est ici.

The Acting Chairman: Order. The member will please address his remarks to the chair.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Mr. Chairman, I was just saying that for those estimates, there were eight years for my friend and only four months for me. I told him to wait. There will be another budget and there will be another throne speech in the next few weeks.

Mr. Martel: The member for Kenora did not do anything either; that is what the problem is. The minister is right that he did nothing.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The way the province can best help these industries remain strong is to provide an investment climate that encourages reinvestment in these industries.

Government is working co-operatively with industry and labour to ensure an adequate wood fibre supply, a network of resource access roads, a highly trained labour force, labour-management peace, adoption of new technology, access to capital, supportive regulatory environment and a fair and competitive tax system.

Government's role is to ensure that the north is an attractive place to invest. We must also ensure that the mining industry has adequate access to capital. For example, cabinet just gave me authority to ask Ed Thompson, a former president of the Prospectors and Developers Association, to review the investment climate for Ontario's junior mines and to report back by the end of March.

There was a question about use of wood waste to produce energy. The production of methanol or wood alcohol, as suggested by the member for Algoma, is just not economical. With the current price of natural gas, it is cheaper to use it as the feedstock. On a more positive note, Foster Wheeler Ltd. now is constructing an $11-million, 7.5 megawatt thermal power station in Chapleau that will consume 110,000 tons per annum of wood waste and provide 10 to 12 new permanent jobs. The power will be sold to Ontario Hydro.

While this plant will not be operational until later this year, the government is already working with Foster Wheeler towards the construction of a second plant in another northern Ontario location. They are looking at Hearst, Cochrane, Timmins and Wawa to use the residue.

With respect to the response to an editorial in the Northern Times, Kapuskasing, the member for Algoma was scared that those councils would favour only large centres.

The appointment of members to individual RDCs will be done with sensitivity to achieve a balance between the larger and smaller centres. RDCs will not be deciding which member municipalities will get a new manufacturing plant. Individual companies will continue to decide where they wish to locate. It is up to the individual municipalities and their economic development organization to promote themselves to prospective employers.

The purpose of the RDCs is to provide a forum for giving feedback on area or regional issues and opportunities. Their mandate will not be to provide a forum for the promotion of parochial interests by individual municipalities. RDCs will be an important vehicle to achieve greater co-operation among all municipalities and interest groups in each region.

Those are my responses to the member for Algoma.

8:40 p.m.

Mr. Brandt: Is it possible for us to hear from the member for Sudbury East? We all look forward to that.

The Acting Chairman: That may be possible.

Mr. Bernier: I have heard this speech 20 times.

Mr. Martel: It did not get through to the member because he did not do anything of any value in 20 years in government.

I have attempted to watch some development in the north these many years. It has primarily been resource extraction; taking those resources out of the north and sending them to the south, primarily to the United States. Along with the resources, we have sent our kids out because we have not had jobs.

Mr. Bernier: That is all the member has ever said.

Mr. Martel: The former minister who just interjected has four kids and to my knowledge not one of them is in northern Ontario, because they could not find a job in northern Ontario. There are no jobs for young people. If one goes across northern Ontario, wherever one wants to go, the kids from northern Ontario are here in southern Ontario or they went west when jobs were prevalent. One has only to look in Sudbury --

Mr. Bernier: The member should not generalize. He sent his kids overseas to get an education.

Mr. Martel: If they want an education to get a job, I am prepared to provide that for them, but there are no job opportunities in the north beyond extraction. One might work in a mill, in the mines or in the pulp industry, but beyond that --

Mr. Knight: What about Doran's Beverages?

Mr. Martel: Doran's? There is a handful of jobs.

What do we do with our resources? Those people who continue to convince government that resource extraction, whether it be from the forests or the mines, is the solution to the problems of northern Ontario are crazy. Until we keep some of those resources in the north, start to manufacture them -- first, totally refine them and not send them to other countries to be refined -- and start to utilize some of them here, the potential for development in the north is no greater now than it was five years ago.

In 50 years or 60 years, one can look at Sudbury or any mining community -- let us forget Sudbury for a moment and look at Sault Ste. Marie. In the iron and steel industry in Hamilton, there is one job in the manufacturing sector for one job in the steel industry. If one looks at Sault Ste. Marie, for about 8,000 or 9,000 steel jobs, there are about 500 jobs at the most in manufacturing. Why is it that we can have so many manufacturing jobs related to steel in Hamilton but we cannot have any jobs related to steel in the north?

Mr. Bernier: The member should be the president of Inco.

Mr. Martel: The member for Kenora might kid, but he had his chance to have a planning role when we created the Ministry of Northern Affairs and he voted against any charges. I moved the amendments, but the member's government refused to accept them. They would have given him a planning capacity to have economic development.

The new minister falls in the same trap. I listened to the speech and I heard that rerun over and over again. Resource extraction will never develop the north economically.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I did not say it would.

Mr. Martel: It will not. Yes, that is what the minister said.

If we are talking about manufacturing something, then the minister is on the right track. It has not developed on its own in 100 years. Manufacturing will never develop on its own in the north, partly because of distance and partly because the bigger markets are down here. That is where the government infusion of capital is going to have to come in the form of loans and so on, or even in direct government involvement in developing some industries we want.

We have talked on a number of possibilities until we are blue in the face. One cannot get an answer. One never gets an answer. One could not get an answer from the former Minister of Northern Affairs and that whole group on a number of possibilities.

We had a company coming to Sudbury recently which was going to produce mining equipment. I say to my friend down at the end of the line, because they needed jobs in Glace Bay people from Nova Scotia came up here and offered $8 million under the table. Instead of that company coming to Sudbury, the bloody federal Tories offered it $8 million, and 85 per cent of what it is going to produce is going to be sold in northern Ontario. We are going to have to provide the rail transport, the subsidy to transport that mining equipment to northern Ontario.

The federal Tories say: "We do not believe in interference in the marketplace. It has to develop on its own." Does it develop under the table? They offered the company $8 million when it would have come to Sudbury for less than a million; they bought it. That is Tory economic policy. They say, "We do not believe in interference," but they offer a company $8 million to go to Glace Bay because the Tories closed down the heavy water plant.

Kelleher in Sault Ste. Marie has his finger in one ear and his brain in neutral because he could not overcome Sinclair Stevens, who said it had to go to Glace Bay. He has not said it publicly but he has done it.

So development along the lines we have talked about and I have talked about never takes place. In 1973, we got a select committee to put in a report. My friend the previous Minister of Correctional Services was on that committee. We agreed that we had to encourage the production of mining equipment in northern Ontario.

This company was coming to northern Ontario. The federal Tories took it away, just like that. Kelleher could not do a thing to stop it, and the member for Sudbury (Mr. Gordon) is a Tory. Or did the member forget?

Mr. Bernier: The member for Sudbury East scared them away.

Mr. Martel: Oh, I scared them away. In fact, I was trying to help them get there. We met with the minister and his staff. The company was on the way until Sinclair Stevens sent somebody from Nova Scotia to put up $8 million under the table.

The natural type of development for the north is to utilize the resources there to the maximum.

Mr. Bernier: What about the goats the member was promoting in Sudbury for angora wool? He was a director on that.

Mr. Martel: I promoted the sale of goats. Your friend Ernest Schaffernicht -- I will not be distracted by Ernest Schaffernicht. It is too painful.

I say to my friend, though, regarding economic development, we were on the track with that mining equipment company. That is the type of development we need. My friend the previous Minister of Correctional Services knows full well that we recommended it. He was on the committee that in 1973 said we had to start to produce mining equipment in northern Ontario.

Can the members imagine: Canada, the third largest producer of mineral wealth in the world, imports more mining equipment than any other country in the world.

We are crazy. We have a market for mining equipment. Why should we not be producing it where we have such a large resource? We are the third largest market in the world for mining equipment and we import from the United States, Germany and Sweden. We produce virtually nothing.

Mr. Bernier: Why does the member not start manufacturing in Sudbury?

Mr. Martel: The member says to me: "One of the things I want to see developed is mining equipment. There is a future in it, and the production of equipment for logging, and so on." Where is much of it produced?

8:50 p.m.

My friend says he was in business. Where did he buy his equipment? Not in northern Ontario. All we ever do is tear resources out of the ground and send them somewhere else. As I listened to the speech tonight, I heard about more extraction. I get insulted when I hear of more extraction. Every time a community is built based on extraction, one knows that from the first shovelful there is an end to it somewhere down the road. The only solution is to start to utilize some of the resources in the north. Until we have a government that is prepared to do that, there is no hope.

Let me give my friend the minister another example. I wrote to him about all of this after he became minister. I got an answer from him, and I said, "Look, the same bureaucrat who wrote that for the member for Kenora is now writing it for you." That is right. The deputy was with the minister. I was there at a meeting with the Premier (Mr. Peterson), and I said:

"Let us not get hung up on the problem of pollution emissions alone because we cannot win. Instead, let us ask for the first time that the provincial government, with the Premier there and several authorities, the two mining companies and the two unions, sit down and look at the long-term development of the Sudbury basin.

"Let us find out if we need a new smelter because we should not deal with pollution control just in a vacuum. If we do that, we are dead; we must look at pollution control in relationship to a new refinery, a new smelter and the capacity to take some of the Cargill township phosphates and in that refining capacity draw off more sulphuric acid and combine sulphuric acid with phosphates to make fertilizer in the north -- that is one sideline; take the refining capacity to refine all of the precious metals, all of which are processed in Europe, in England for International Nickel and in Norway for Falconbridge, and include in that a whole package of the total refining of all of the nickel in Canada."

We do not do that. We have excess capacity. One of the finest reports ever done was by Tom Mohide in a document called, Towards a Nickel Policy for Ontario. He said we had excess capacity to refine in Canada now. What do we do? We continue to let them ship the resources out of the country, partly processed, semi-processed. We do not manufacture any of it.

It is the same with wood. We do not manufacture furniture. What the hell do we have? We have ghost towns and massive unemployment.

My friend talks about gloom and doom. We have lost 15,000 people in Sudbury in the last six years. We have an unemployment rate of 14 per cent. It is the richest part of the province and it has created more wealth than any other area has in terms of profit, and we have virtually nothing.

Overnight, those fellows over there closed down the fourth largest employer, the Correctional Services centre in Burwash. They just wiped it out and built a new jail in Milton, in the riding of Oakville; that was Snow's riding. They wiped it out. It did not matter. It was the fourth largest employer. That is how much they thought about the north.

As I listen to these speeches, this is the same sort of attitude, the same sort of philosophy: southern boys writing nice speeches about how we can extract some more. Extraction is not the answer.

Mr. Bernier: There is nothing in the accord. They put nothing in the accord about that. They slipped up.

Mr. Martel: We got more out of the accord than the member did for northern Ontario. I at least can stand here --

Mr. McClellan: We got rid of you, Leo.

Mr. Bernier: A tax increase is what we got.

Interjections.

Mr. Martel: We might be hypocrites. Mr. Chairman might remind my friend that the Speaker has ruled over and over again that sort of language out of order in this House. I will not even ask the member to withdraw it because I know where it comes from. I will just let it ride. If the Speaker were in his chair, he would tell the member for Kenora he has to withdraw that comment. I will not insist because I know where it comes from and I will just let it go.

Mr. McClellan: Consider the source.

Mr. Martel: Yes, I would just consider the source.

Let me get back. If we want to talk about what we can do in northern Ontario, there are all kinds of things we could do with import replacement. If one looks at the list of products produced from nickel and finds out where those products are manufactured one will find none of them made in Ontario. If one looks at mining equipment, the potential for sulphur or the possibility of reducing acid emissions by making fertilizer, the silly part of it is I do not know whether it will work, but what is so irritating is never to have the possibility of sitting down and talking seriously about it.

For three years we sent documents to that government and to the federal Liberals. Both of them having been in power so long, they did not think anybody else had an idea but themselves and they did not have to listen to anybody. I hope this government decides it has to listen about some potential for economic development along a number of avenues.

I used to tell my friends over on that side of the House that one of the problems facing northerners is freight rates. One can ship raw material out of the north so easily at tremendously reduced rates, but to ship anything that is manufactured is sky-high. No dispute; one can ship stuff from Toronto to Saskatoon more cheaply than one can ship it from here to Hearst because of the silliness of the freight rate system in this country.

None of that is ever dealt with; it is just ignored. The Tories ignored it because they were running this province by the divine right of kings. They did not have to do a thing but put the odd fire truck in a community and that was it.

For example, they were going to fix up the hospital in Sudbury. Three cabinet ministers, including the former Premier (Mr. F. S. Miller), came to Sudbury over a four-year period about the cancer centre.

Mr. McClellan: How many Tories does it take?

Mr. Martel: Three. The member for Cochrane South (Mr. Pope) came, the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) came and the former Premier came; and they all had a big clambake and a big announcement over a four-year period. All said the same thing. I am questioning the minister to find out whether we are going to have the money to do the building, but we have not even got to that yet.

The list of things that we could do in the north with some sound economic planning is endless, but we have always taken the cheap route out, as we have in Canada as a whole, which is to sell off raw materials -- to the US primarily, about 80 per cent of it -- and end up buying all the finished goods back from the US, where they are manufactured.

Manufacturing has about five jobs for every man in the mining sector, so when my friend's ministry prepares material and talks about more extraction, I blow my cool because the jobs are not in mining; the jobs are in manufacturing.

My God, look at Inco. In 1972 it had 19,000 men and women. They are down to 6,500. Their production is almost the same, and we have not been able to make up for the loss of jobs. Look at Falconbridge: everybody is out at Falconbridge. It is the same, and again we have no jobs and we have no replacements. Yet the value of those resources is endless. They are tremendous resources and we do not do anything with them.

One could talk about agriculture. I was in Flin Flon a couple of years ago and I was quite amazed at how much further north Flin Flon is than the Sudbury basin, for example; much further north, several hundred miles. Agriculture abounds. We have the flats down through Kirkland Lake and that area right down as far as Cobalt. There is tremendous potential. It has never been developed.

9 p.m.

It is like everything else in northern Ontario. If one is 100 miles away from the American border one is considered in the hinterland in Canada; anything beyond 100 miles, except for southern Ontario, where our geographic situation is somewhat different from that of the rest of Canada. If one were to cut straight across the 39th parallel one would find it is the same; beyond 100 to 150 miles it is like wasteland and all we do is extract.

That is why the minister is barking up the wrong tree when he talks about relying on more resource extraction as the future for the north. One has only to look at the number of industries with more than 200 workers that are not involved in mining or the pulp and paper industry. How many are there? There are four or five at most in northern Ontario. There are very few. It is because we have never had the courage to sit down, plan and think about where we are going and how we can utilize those resources in the north.

I am not silly enough to suggest that one can take all the nickel from Inco or the copper and manufacture it in the north or in Ontario. I am not suggesting that for a moment. This country is so rich. One can imagine what the Japanese could do with our resources. There is a country without any resources. It imports everything, including power, and it leads the world economically. We have it all and we cannot give it away fast enough; dirt cheap.

The federal Tories want to get into free trade. Tell me what is in free trade for us. Eighty per cent of what we now trade with the United States is in resources. That is primarily what we send to them. Where are the jobs? They say: "Oh, it is those big markets. The potential is in the big markets. You have to look at the big picture." However, we do not have any Canadian industry to compete with them.

I recall in 1976 and 1977, when they were talking about the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Commerce was looking at 2,000 companies shutting their doors and going back to the US. In the second GATT agreement, the tariff went down to nine per cent. One can imagine what it will be like if there is no tariff whatsoever, not even nine per cent. My God, they will just shut the doors in Canada, put another shift on in the plants in the United States and send it all in. That is the Canadian legacy.

We have never had in this country and in this province, the desire, the drive, to plan the economy in a sound way. Every time one talks about it, people say, "Oh you are a socialist, you want to nationalize everything." That was the glib answer. One can look at West Germany, Sweden and Japan and one can see any number of types of economies, all of them mixed economies with heavy government involvement. In Japan, the government is heavily involved; it finances a lot. In West Germany and Sweden, it is the same thing. They are involved in planning the economy.

We have the one ingredient most of them do not have: resources. We have been so rich, but we have squandered our resources. Rather than plan economically, we have taken the shortcut. Sell them off in a hurry for a fast buck and then we can afford to bring in the imports. It is costing us now.

This country spent $12 billion in unemployment insurance and welfare last year, and yet it is the third largest producer of mineral wealth in the world. We should be ashamed of ourselves that we have not maximized the use of those resources for the benefit of the people of Canada and of Ontario. We are a disgrace and the legacy we are leaving for our kids is unbelievable. If one looks to the jobs we are creating in Canada now, they are service industry jobs which are low-paying, part-time and are going to drag us down, or we will continue to pay unemployment insurance and welfare. In Sudbury, with as many problems as it has, the stores are working women three days a week. No fringe benefits, no nothing. Minimum wage. Whoop-de-do! Yet Sudbury produces tremendous amounts of wealth.

One can go beyond Sudbury and talk about the Timmins area, an area that has produced vast amounts of wealth. If it were not for Texasgulf, it would be a ghost town. One can look at Kirkland Lake that produced tremendous amounts of wealth for Ontario. Going through Kirkland Lake one sees head-frames and mines that are shut down. What are we all about as a society? Tell me why we cannot take our resources rather than sending them to Japan, Norway or England. Why can we not take those resources and turn them into something which would provide jobs for our young people. There is not a government in this country -- I do not want to take that too far.

I was going to say there was not a government in this country that has not tried to do something about it. There have been several governments that have successful. By the time Grant Devine, the Premier of Saskatchewan, finishes selling all the crown assets, there will be nothing left. At the time former premier Allan Blakeney was defeated, they did not have a provincial debt, and they had almost 20 years of continuously balanced budgets. They now have had three deficits in a row. They are not doing badly under Mr. Devine. He has sold off all kinds of real estate and crown corporations to try to return the government to power for a second term.

I say to the minister he has an opportunity. It is going to take tremendous effort to change the economic structure, the economic direction of this province. I am not sure those people have the will to do it. The old methods of doing some of these things are not going to work. They are going to have to get directly involved through consortiums of public and private money to make it work.

Nothing has developed in the north beyond extraction save a few small industries. It is not going to happen on its own. They are going to have to look at things. I mentioned a few, whether they be mining equipment or not getting caught in a game of emissions. Look at the total package for Sudbury which would be beneficial, if one recaptured more sulphuric acid and mixed it with phosphates. That sort of development would have to be planned. Once government has the plan, it has to bring in people to help develop it.

That does not mean to say government ownership. I know some members go hairy when we talk about government ownership. Without direct government involvement, it is not going to happen. It is not going to happen because we have had 100 years of it in the north, and it has not happened. The Tories did not do a thing to help it. They had a philosophy of "a little dab will do you." They dropped a little cash around election time, a little cash there and a little dab here and there.

When they finished with all their dabs, we had nothing. The kids still stream out of the north. The tax rates in northern Ontario are higher than anywhere else. Municipal taxes in the north are much higher. Sudbury is the highest-taxed city because there is no industrial base. Until we get an industrial base, we cannot reduce taxes, we cannot have our kids working in the north, and we pay high bucks for education so they can leave.

9:10 p.m.

Until we get involved in economic planning in a sound, sensible way using the resources to our advantage and no longer sending them out of Canada, this province and this country are not going anywhere. The shame of it: we are the third largest producer of mineral wealth in the world and we have 1.5 million people or thereabouts unemployed. We ought to be ashamed that is occurring in this day and age. I am not sure why the jobs need to go to the west coast. They open up a mine and they bring in the equipment for the mine from France and Japan. What the hell do we get for it?

Mr. Pierce: Where would you get the money? Off the backs of their labour in Japan?

Mr. Martel: We have money. I am glad my friend interjected. When the select committee was looking into this, we invited the people from Bay Street. The member's friend, the former Minister of Correctional Services, will tell him that they told us there was all kinds of money to develop this country. If one looks at the amount of money that is flowing out to develop places in New York and Dallas and so on, and if one looks at the amount of money that flows out in royalties or patent fees, etc., we are talking about billions. The member does not understand that. He asks where the money comes from. We have money on Bay Street. There are Canadians with lots of money.

Are we better off paying unemployment insurance and welfare or are we better off utilizing the stuff that is here to create work? That is what it boils down to. We can play silly games about where the money is going to come from. Where does the money come from to support the 1.5 million people who want jobs? We have to find the money because they cannot live in abject poverty, although they are pretty close to it.

We have the resources, but we have never had the will to change it. Until we have a government that does, it will not change. As long as we get speeches that talk about more extraction out of the north, we are never going to change the north. Government is going to have to get involved in a very strong and forthright fashion. It might mean government putting money in. Anything less, not only in northern Ontario but also in this country, continues to spell disaster for us with l .5 million unemployed and a $12-billion bill annually to support people who do not have jobs.

We have a choice. We have the resources and the capacity to do it if we only have the will.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I cannot answer all the points made by my friend the member for Sudbury East. Let me say, however, that I am asking many of the same questions he asks about mining machinery, diversification and labour-management communication. I invite him and other northerners to work with us on these issues. I will be listening. I assure the member that my ministry is open to suggestions. We will make an effort to try to lead the economy of northern Ontario on that kind of route.

Let me mention a couple of specific issues that are of special concern to me. First, labour-management communication: there was a meeting of Inco and the union. The staff of my ministry arranged a meeting on Tuesday between Inco and its union. I am told, and I see in the Sudbury paper, that the union felt it was a useful and informative meeting. At our suggestion, the company and the union have agreed this will be the start of a real dialogue addressing common challenges. We will soon arrange a similar meeting with Falconbridge. Some of the information exchanged was confidential and all groups agreed that these meetings should be restricted. I did not go. I think this is the right route to take.

On the youth unemployment problem, I am very concerned about the unemployment problem among northern youth. We have inherited a very bad situation. As some members know, many of the companies that used to hire youth in the summer no longer do so and some companies such as Inco have long summer shutdowns nowadays.

This hurts all northern young people. It will hurt the prospect of students who need a good job to earn enough to stay in the colleges and universities or to get enough money for their first year.

That is one of the reasons I decided to enter politics at my age. I looked at the figures the night the member for Muskoka (Mr. F. S. Miller) announced the election. It was a Friday. A few minutes before on Global they were talking about youth unemployment in Ontario, and I discussed it with my daughter. She worked for the federal government and she told me about youth unemployment in the north. At that time in the northeast it was 28 per cent; that was before May. In the northwest it was 24 or 25 per cent. Today they tell us it is 14 per cent or nine per cent for youth. Nothing has changed. Why is it 14 per cent today? It is impossible.

I am sure that if one takes the welfare roll and the unemployment insurance figures for youth, it is a disaster. I cannot see how our young people can go on this way. They are leaving the north. I was reading that 16.2 per cent have left the Sault Ste. Marie area in the last five years. Where are they? They are probably here on Yonge Street with their hair all yellow or green. I am sure we must do something pretty soon, within the next two years. We cannot afford to have a full generation on unemployment insurance, because the youth are losing their dignity. When one loses one's dignity, one loses le goût de vivre. That is why we have so many suicides in the north.

During my election campaign, in one month there were six suicides in my area between Hearst and Smoothrock Falls. Out of those there were three who had been laid off at Spruce Falls. There were some who were older -- 49 or 50 years of age -- and the rest were youths. If we continue, we will have the same problem with our youth as we have with our native people, two or three generations without seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

As a government and together we have to make a new direction in the north, because otherwise the clock is ticking. If we cannot, in the next two or three years, try to give hope to those young people or those young women in the north, then we will be in trouble. As I have said lots of times, when I go to meet my Creator he is going to ask me, "What did you do for the youth in the north between 1980 or 1990?" That is why I am here. I will at least be able to answer that I went into politics to try to do something; that is one of the reasons.

I did not come here to see my name with the Honourable René in front; I did not come here to have a car driven by a chauffeur. I came here to try to give the rest of my life, if I can, and with my energy to try to give a ray of light to those young people who are suffering.

In the north we are encountering two problems, the problem my friend the member for Sudbury East mentioned about the people who were laid off in mines or in pulp and paper, the ones around 48, 49 and 50; and then at the bottom we have our youth who are unemployed. In the middle we are not too bad yet. We will have to make a real effort to try to keep them going, but we will have to find a solution for the older and the younger ones.

This is probably going to be by trying to get new industry. My honourable friend from Sudbury is right in what he was saying about the company that was supposed to go to Sudbury and another one that was supposed to go to North Bay. Those guys in Ottawa say, "You were yelling about Trudeau." At least with Trudeau you knew where you were going. He had the Department of Regional Economic Expansion program. It was the same application in the north of Ontario as in Val-d'Or or in Prince Edward Island, but today we do not know where we are going.

The economy is really dry; there is nothing left. Then they go around and give money under the table to Quebec or to the other provinces, and we in Ontario are left flat. There is no direction in the economy. I do not think we are going to get any in the next budget, either.

So we will have to take the lead and try with the amount of money we have in Ontario to make the best of it. However, without the feds it is going to be hard. I wish my friends in the Conservative Party would put pressure on their friends in Ottawa about northern Ontario and Ontario.

9:20 p.m.

They signed deals with Quebec a few months ago about another sector, mining. They were told not to open that mine at Cyprus Anvil. Everybody went to see them, all the ministers and myself, but they opened that mine. There are two pulp mills in Ontario that are having big problems. There is a surplus of paper and pulp. They opened a mill that was already closed, then another one in Matane. Who is going to suffer again? Ontario; because there are already two mills or maybe three that are in deep financial trouble. Maybe these two mills are going to fall by the wayside, like the mine that was supposed to open at Wilson Lake.

I got a letter today from Falconbridge. The only reason the other mine was open was that we spent money on it. I decided when I arrived there to give money for roads to the mine. It is a new direction that I gave to the northern roads. There was one in Kirkland Lake but that was under the federal agreement. This is for the north road, with the supposition the mine will be in production. They spent $10 million on the mine site and shaft, $1.5 million on the road, and then they opened this mine over there. Now, in Quebec, they have all kinds of grants from Hydro Québec and the provincial and federal governments. They are going to open another little zinc mine between the two other companies.

Who was suffering at that time? Northern Ontario. I had a long meeting with the Premier on this issue of unemployment. We are in a real recession in the north. It is not only in mining, it is all over. When one looks at it, it is very scary. We have to try to convince my friend the Minister of Energy (Mr. Kerrio), if we want to compete with other provinces Ontario Hydro is going to have to be a part of this economic tool for northern Ontario. If Hydro is not an integral part, we will be facing a lot of trouble because Quebec is using hydro as an economic tool.

As the member for Sudbury East has said, we have to look at transportation. I asked the people in the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission to look at it again. They had a price increase last year of about six or seven per cent. I want to know why, because everything was supposed to be at three per cent. This should not happen again.

Other companies were operating in the north and were told by the government at that time they would get a good price to haul wood from north of Cochrane. The ONTC raised its prices. Finally one company, Cochrane Enterprises, was caught in a bind and may have to close down if there is no solution. They are now starting to haul with trucks. That is 125 miles. They cannot make it.

We are going to look for some direction, probably with Via Rail, and perhaps take the line up to Hearst and look at the lines that go to Sault Ste. Marie to try to get a loop and work together, or get this province to invest money in that loop and try at least to control the transportation around that area.

We are looking at a few things such as that. I mentioned to the unions that perhaps we should look at the Quebec situation where there is a fonds de solidarité arrangement. The unions buy in with their employees in small, profitable companies. I was sorry when I saw Mr. White did not go along with the deal to let the employees buy in with other companies in the Urban Transportation Development Corp. Still, those are his ideas and I have discussed that with other union presidents in this province. They tell me they are not yet prepared.

I will not stop there. I am going to try to meet with Mr. Pilkey and then perhaps make my way to Mr. White again. I would like to meet with them personally, because if we are going to make a move in the north on secondary industry, we need labour peace. Labour should participate in the development of northern Ontario in the same style of program as in Quebec. In Quebec, the province put some money into that fund and the federal government put in $10 million. That $10 million probably is there for Ontario if we want it, if the unions in Ontario want to work together.

I am going to try again when I come back. I am going to take a week's holiday, or 10 days, then will try to meet with labour in this province. With the help of my friends from the third party, I will try to convince them to look at Quebec's solidarity fund for the future of small companies in this province.

If we want to give youth a bit more stimulus, we have to change the system of education in northern Ontario. That will not be done overnight. We are producing too many mechanics who are not mechanics, because the shops in northern Ontario today were built during the last years of Jean Marchand, the federal minister. He gave money to schools in northern Ontario, but most of the shops for learning trades are obsolete because they were built in 1967 and 1968.

We have to make new inroads. Children who have to come and work in this area should at least have training in a trade school with machinery or computers for the jobs they are going to be offered. Right now they do not even know what robots are all about. We will have to show them what robots are for.

This is one thing my deputy ministry and I are talking about with the Minister of Education and with the Minister of Colleges and Universities (Mr. Sorbara). We have to take a new direction in the colleges and universities so they are northern universities, and some of the schools should be up in northern Ontario. That is lagging behind at this point.

For example, they are closing down the faculty of architecture at the University of Toronto. They should leave that open and close the forestry school and bring it to Thunder Bay. They should be able to produce mining engineers in Sudbury. We have to rationalize the system.

I assure the members that my ministry is looking at other areas. I agree with the members from the north that we have to diversify along different lines. We are going to discuss that in the next year or so with other ministries. The north and east of this province have to have a share of the pie. Toronto is okay, but we have to start to push for a few, not all the departments but some, in the north if we are going to survive.

As my friend the member for Sudbury East said, it is hard to attract new industry to the north. I asked the member for Kenora when he was joking with me about the Toyota plant: "Why did we not get plants in 1948 and 1950? Why did they not push the southern industry towards the north when it was time?" Today we have to fight Quebec and other provinces. It will be a big chore to make them jump towards Sudbury and North Bay, but we have to try.

We know from statistics that tourism and services will be high. If so, our government will have to direct some service industry towards the north. We will have to do much more to create short-term jobs for youth and also more permanent jobs. Through education and through new initiatives, I am sure that is the way to go.

9:30 p.m.

I would like to assure my friend, and I will repeat it to him, I did not come here at the age of 52 just to try to do the same things that have happened in the last 20 years. With the other ministries, I am going to try to give a new direction. Through the regional economic development councils, we are going to look first at tourism, and I am going to ask them to give me a tourist strategy. After that, we will work on other things.

What I want from the people who are going to be involved with us is an economic strategy, a new social strategy and a tourist strategy to see where we are going to go in the next 10 years. After that, we can target a region and work on target. This is my response to my friend the member for Sudbury East.

Mr. Bernier: I listened with a great deal of interest as the minister responded. In my opening remarks I asked something like 63 questions and I got answers for about 30. I will go through them one by one. I hope we can get some positive answers.

I admire the minister's determination and desire to do bigger and greater things for northern Ontario. I suppose that after eight or nine months we have to say the jury is still out. We will be watching with interest as these things unfold. He talks a great line; there is no question about it.

During the opening remarks, he referred to such things as, "We will listen," "We will study," "I am concerned," "We will review," "That is under consideration," "We will take a look at this," "It is a priority with us," "We will have a plan," "We will set up a strategy," "We will work together," "We will consult," and on and on.

That is great. Those are great words. I think he raises a lot of expectations when he talks about things happening that may never happen. I think we should be fair with the people of northern Ontario and say exactly what we are going to do.

Everything is going to flow so harmoniously, everything is going to roll out and it is going to be Utopia because the minister, at 52 years of age, has come to Queen's Park and is going to change the way of life for all of us in northern Ontario. I will be watching with interest and I will be helping at every turn of the wheel. However, when he moves around northern Ontario, he should not go around and leave promises with people and raise hopes that he knows he cannot fulfil. There is no question about that. I say that to him as we start questioning specifics of the estimates.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The member should tell me what I have not fulfilled yet.

Mr. Bernier: It is just straight talk. We need something positive, some positive proof.

As far as the member for Sudbury East is concerned, I have heard that speech about 20 times. It is his old gloom-and-doom speech. It was so bad that he emptied the public galleries. They walked out on him. He scared them out just as he has scared industry out of northern Ontario with his socialist claptrap, which is all it is.

Mr. Martel: The member did not develop one business when he was there.

Mr. Bernier: I am going to tell a story about a great developer of new business in northern Ontario. We did start a new business. We gave them money, and he was on the board of directors, him and his friend the member for Nickel Belt.

Do the members remember those goats? They went to Texas and bought some angora goats. They were going to develop angora goats in Sudbury.

Mr. Martel: He knows he is not telling the truth, so it does not matter.

Mr. Bernier: I am just trying to get his goat.

Mr. Martel: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: I must tell my honourable friend that is not quite the way it happened. It was his government that put $600,000 into a little operation called Sudbury 2001. Some of his best friends at Inco and Falconbridge were on the board of directors. My friend the member for Nickel Belt and I were here in Toronto. We finally got it straightened out.

Mr. Chairman: Order. That is not a point of order.

Mr. Bernier: The truth is that he --

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: Did the member get a sweater?

Mr. Bernier: Yes, I got a sweater. They were very expensive. I bought one for my wife.

Mr. Martel: The member when minister gave $100,000 without any strings.

Mr. Bernier: Here is one little effort, and we propped him up with money. We gave him all the direction he needed and he flopped; he failed. Now he stands in the Legislature and tries to tell the world how to correct all the problems of northern Ontario. He had an opportunity and he failed. The minister should not pay too much attention to that. The member is a little embarrassed about that.

Mr. Martel: The member can have all 100 of them if he can find them. They are on Manitoulin Island now.

Interjections.

Mr. Chairman: Order. This is not very easy for Hansard and it is not very orderly. The member for Kenora has the floor.

Mr. Bernier: Last time we met, we talked about morale in the ministry. I want to remind the minister that I am still concerned about that issue in particular in his ministry. I was a little disappointed to read the comments of the minister in an article in the Globe and Mail, dated January 25, 1986, after we discussed it in the Legislature. The minister has quite a large article about himself and all the things he has done.

However, he made a couple of references to his ministry about which I should like some clarification. First, he says he is not going to be briefed any more by his staff because they waste a lot of his time. Second, he said, "In my own department they have got to start to think like Liberals." I wonder if he would explain just what that is.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: First, this young woman came to see me one night. She interviewed me and asked me about my frustration. That week, I and my deputy minister were frustrated because we had to fight with other ministries because some of them were still thinking about the south. I am sorry, I was misquoted. I said my ministry has to fight all the time with other ministries, and I did say "ministries." I can assure you I am saying that as the truth. I did not mention it was my ministry.

I was saying the other ministries will have to start to think of a different, a liberal program. She put "Liberal." I never talk about "Tory." When I speak I always say "Conservative" and she put "Tory." When I meet those other ministries, I have to admit it, they will have to change their thinking too. The member for Kenora went with that himself when he was the Minister of Northern Affairs because there are still some people who think Barrie is the north, and that was my frustration. It had nothing to do with my ministry.

Mr. Bernier: I appreciate the minister's response and his clarification. I am sure his staff will appreciate reading his full explanation.

In going through Hansard, I noticed that on January 20, 1986, the minister stated, "Our government as a whole has introduced many programs that will benefit northern Ontario in the long run." Would he give us a breakdown of the programs he was referring to in that comment?

9:40 p.m.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: On occasion, I have provided some lists of the programs, but I was talking about the medical travel and the 24-hour service. When I talk about programs, it is not always specifically about the north; they deal with the south too. The members all know which one is being talked about.

Mr. Brandt: Which one?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I do not have to go through that. I will give the member a list tomorrow of all the programs we started and which direction we took on others.

Mr. Bernier: That will be fine. I just wanted to get it on the record because I am not really sure how many programs the minister is referring to or how many were brought in. We would like to know, but if the minister brings in the list tomorrow, that will be great.

On page 83 of the same Hansard report, the minister referred to the medical travel assistance program. He went to great lengths to explain how it worked, what it was going to do and everything else. He wound up by saying he did not understand what the honourable member was talking about. I want to repeat to him what the problem is in Kenora and ask for his help in leaning on the Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) to correct what I think is a real deficiency and discrimination in that program.

He should know the distance they will assist with is 300 kilometres. In other words, if a patient has to travel 300 kilometres to a major medical referral centre, he gets assisted financially. That is the criterion that is laid down. It is an arbitrary figure they have come up with.

I want to point out to the minister that the 20,000 people living in the Kenora area use the Manitoba medical facilities, the Health Sciences Centre, St. Boniface Hospital. They are constantly using those facilities which are 240 kilometres away, so they do not qualify. That is the point I was trying to make to the minister. They are short of the 300-kilometre limit and they are being discriminated against.

I brought it up to the Minister of Health. He shrugged his shoulders and said that was the program.

I would implore this minister, as the minister responsible for northern Ontario, to lean on the Minister of Health and ask him to review that criterion, because it is discriminatory; there is no question about it.

The member for Lake Nipigon (Mr. Pouliot) has a similar problem relating to that distance provision in the medical plan.

I explain to the minister again, I hope he understands the problem those 20,000 people have. It should appear to all of us as very discriminatory and I think the minister would like to correct it as much as I would.

I was interested in the minister's comments with respect to his discussions and ongoing dialogue with the Nishnawbe-Aski concerning land and other issues. Is it the government's intention to open those to public hearings or are they just going to be private discussions with his ministry and the Ministry of the Attorney General?

As he knows, this is a very interesting subject. I know there are a lot of people in northern Ontario who wish to get involved because the royal commissioner, Ed Fahlgren, has made certain recommendations. It may not sit well with all the people of northern Ontario. Is it this government's plan to take those discussions into the open, as he is doing with so many other consultative processes he has put in place?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: When I responded to the question on the Fahlgren report, I just listed what we were doing. These negotiations are being undertaken by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Kerrio). The member could ask that question of him later.

On the Kenora problem, I know what the member means; there are other areas in the riding of Rainy River. I discussed it with the Minister of Health, who told us to monitor it. He did not promise me, but if we put enough pressure, he will probably make some changes. The member could ask that question of the Minister of Natural Resources some time later.

I am a member of the committee on native affairs. I am working on the economic and social side, the Attorney General (Mr. Scott), the chairman, is working on the legal side and the Minister of Natural Resources is working on the resources.

Mr. Bernier: I will go back to my original comments and go through some of the questions that were not answered. On page 3, I made reference to the mines division of his ministry and I asked how he planned to cover the increased expenditures of this division. It does not show in these estimates and we have not heard anything from him as to how they will be funded, what amount will be in the mines division and what size of department he will have.

I ask him for a further explanation of this now. He is the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. I wonder if he could clarify this and bring us up to date as to what the expenditures would be, the number of people involved and some of his strategies and plans for that division.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: We are still working, trying to rearrange the mining side of the ministry with the Ministry of Natural Resources. That should be over by the end of this fiscal year and it will be incorporated in my next estimates. Does the member know what I mean? We are still making some arrangements that will be finished by the end of this fiscal year. Everything will be in the new estimates.

Mr. Bernier: I am trying to understand it. The Ministry of Natural Resources has all the funds until this fiscal year is completed and then they will be moved over?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It will transfer responsibility and the money with it too. That will be completed by the end of this fiscal year.

Mr. Bernier: Does he have any idea of the budget he will have?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Not at this time. I assure the member it will be adequate for the needs of the mining sector.

Mr. Bernier: I asked this question on page 5 of my opening statement: In view of the reduction in the expenditures of the ministry this year in comparison to the overall expenditures of the government, I wonder whether the minister will be bringing forward some supplementary estimates, and how he is going to look after this shortfall and still keep the government's commitments to northern Ontario.

9:50 p.m.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: There will probably be some shortfall, but if there is, it is not my fault. It was done by the member's government. I did change its budget, especially on the roads. There is $2 million left from the year before. That was done by the Tory administration, not mine. I assure the member we will have enough money to finish the fiscal year with Nordev, as I said before, and then we will be putting in a new demand for the new budget. I can assure the member I will get my share.

Mr. Bernier: On Nordev directly, another $10 million has been added to the budget. Where is that in the expenditures? I do not see it anywhere. I do not see any supplementary estimates. It was added after the fact, as we were going to do in our administration.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Be assured the money is there. I can assure the member of that. We will make a full report in the next estimates and the next budget. I am fulfilling all the commitments we are receiving.

Mr. Bernier: I fail to understand how the minister can flow funds in this fiscal year when they are not incorporated in his estimates and he has not asked for any supplementary estimates. Is that not contrary to the statutes? How can the minister spend money that is not voted?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I will give my friend a full report tomorrow.

Mr. Pierce: There are a couple of items I would like to address to the minister, in full recognition of what the Minister of Northern Development and Mines means to the people of northwestern and northern Ontario. That ministry, through friendly persuasion and consultation with other ministries, is able to acquire some funds to do different things in the north that we are not able to do in other places in Ontario. I recognize the minister's comments about the development needs for secondary industry and the attention his ministry wants to pay to assisting the tourism and manufacturing industries.

It is a known fact that in northwestern Ontario there are many areas not currently serviced by hydro. I realize hydro services are not a direct responsibility of the minister but, given the mandate of the ministry, I am sure he would accept looking at ways and means of promoting further development of the hydro corridors. I am talking about hydro corridors with respect to serviceable power to the buyers, not large transmission lines that go over the top of one's property but from which one cannot draw power because the transformation is not there.

We have many areas in northwestern Ontario that are competing with other parts of Ontario and are generating power by means of diesel plants, yet the transmission lines go right by their facilities.

I hope in the estimates of the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines the minister would look at being able to provide some source of revenue to assist the Minister of Energy (Mr. Kerrio), if that is the case, or to encourage Ontario Hydro to provide better access to hydro for the development of secondary industries and certainly that of the tourism industry. As well, there are a number of tourist operators whose lodges are almost directly under high transmission lines but at the same time they do not have access to hydro.

The minister made reference in his remarks to addressing freight rates as they reflect on the opportunities for secondary manufacturing in northwestern Ontario. During the debate on fuel tax, the minister and I had some words. My feeling at that time was that the increased taxes on diesel fuel would have an effect on the movement of products in and out of northern and northwestern Ontario.

Again, I would hope that the minister would have some influence on the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) in the promotion of secondary industry and manufacturing for northwestern Ontario and be able to promote the movement of tourists in northwestern Ontario. Somewhere along the line I hope he can influence the Treasurer to look at some form of subsidy or a reduction of taxes for those people in the north who would assist in those types of industries.

I want to assure the minister that all the members representing constituents in northwestern Ontario are here to better the life in the north. We are here to assist the minister wherever we can, but we also know that we have to rely on the minister to go with the heavy hand and carry the weighted mallet to the cabinet meetings to ensure that he gets his fair share to spread around the north and make the north -- not a better place to live, because we feel we have one of the best places in Ontario to live now, but a more equitable place to live and to raise our youth.

The minister referred to the lack of youth employment in the north. I do not think any member from northern Ontario can deny there is a lack of opportunity for the young people who stay in northern Ontario. Yet there is an interior, personal drive in the north by people who want to stay there. They are prepared to go out and get their education someplace else because all the educational facilities are not available to them, but then they want to go back and be able to take their income out of the north and raise their families there.

I hope that when the minister is looking at his estimates, presenting his budget and spending his money, he will look further into providing areas for our youth to use their skills and expertise to enable them to stay in the northern part of the province.

One thing we should make note of is that a lot of the young people in northern and northwestern Ontario are very much prepared to be entrepreneurs, to strike out on their own, to establish secondary manufacturing industries, to get involved in tourism and to put up some money, but at the same time they may require some assistance.

I hope the minister will look very favourably on continuing the programs that are already in existence to assist those opportunities and that he will look even a little beyond that and provide additional assistance to make sure that those young people in the north will have an opportunity to use their skills, expertise and personal commitment to develop those industries.

The minister made a number of comments in his opening remarks about being able to assist in the development and promotion of secondary industries. Again, we in the northwest region have had some experience with the closing of iron ore mines and the cutbacks that are taking place because of modernization in the paper mills and a number of other areas.

Some secondary manufacturing is going on in northwestern Ontario, contrary to comments by some other members, but there is a problem in developing those secondary industries in just being able to secure the necessary supplies to further develop a product to its finished state.

10 p.m.

I would refer to such manufacturing industries as aluminum boats and fibreglass products where a small manufacturer may order a full truckload of his product from eastern Ontario. He ends up getting a half truckload, pays for a full truckload and then has to get the other half truckload later on because he is not the supplier's biggest customer. It reflects on the end-line product the person is manufacturing.

Freight rates are one of the biggest deterrents to setting up manufacturing in northwestern Ontario. The member for Sudbury (Mr. Gordon) made very strong representation and strong reference to the cost of moving the product in and out of northwestern Ontario, and it works both ways. I hope the minister will go to cabinet with a very strong voice and a strong commitment to the secondary manufacturing industries of northwestern Ontario and let it be known that secondary industry cannot develop without government assistance. Certainly the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines is looked on as being the ministry of the north and the ministry that represents all the factors that are involved.

The minister knows that his ministry is responsible for such things as extended health care and extended health care beds. It also assists in making sure the hospitals and the hospital care units in northwestern Ontario have good representation and are able not necessarily to compete but to provide the services that are due those people in northwestern Ontario as well as anyplace else in the province. I hope the minister will continue to look at those facilities as being very necessary and as a very strong part of his commitment to the north, and that he will continue with the program of extended care hospitals beds in northwestern Ontario and other facilities that assist the hospitals in providing those very necessary services.

We and the minister have made reference to youth, what they represent to the north and what happens to them. We also must pay more attention to the fact that although we have excellent primary and secondary schools in northern Ontario and also an excellent university and excellent colleges in northern Ontario, we still do not have enough of them. We still have to transport our children in many directions for them to get their educations.

As much as the universities are not the direct responsibility of the ministry, this is certainly a flag the minister has to carry in cabinet. He has to represent all the people of the north, including the youth, and make sure those types of facilities are as available to the north as they are to the south, the east and the west.

I heard the minister make reference tonight to robots and say that our youth may not even know what robots are. However, the EduCap program that is in place through the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines is more than deserving of any credit that anybody wants to give it. It is exciting to go into the schools in northern Ontario and see large banks of computers, where the students are learning to operate computers that are supplied under an EduCap grant. It is exciting to go into schools with new gymnasiums, see the facilities provided under EduCap and talk to the students who come out and say, "Because of the EduCap grants to my high school, I now have taken a full course in photography and other projects."

I am sure the minister is prepared to respond. I hope he will keep that program a high-priority program within the ministry.

I am sorry I did not get to this other item before the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Kerrio) left, but we talk about tourism and what it represents to northern Ontario. I mention northern Ontario because it represents a very strong part of our economy.

Oh, the minister is in the gallery. I am sorry. I am glad to see that.

The biggest complaint I hear from the tourism operators is about how badly regulated or how heavily regulated the tourism industry is. The minister is in the gallery; I am glad to see that. In many cases, the tourism industry is gasping for breath and saying: "Give us a break. Get off the regulations and give us some room to operate."

There are many areas throughout northern and northwestern Ontario that are no longer being designated as growth areas. The lakes they are situated on are at their saturation point as far as development is concerned. No additional tourism operators are being allowed to go to them or move to them. The existing tourist operators are no longer allowed to expand their operations.

At the same time, we are allowing with no control whatsoever -- in fact, a group from British Columbia put something in the neighbourhood of 100 houseboats into Ontario, which will go on the lakes with no regulation whatsoever. They will not know the number of people they can carry. At some place, there is a crossover between three or four ministries, the Ministry of the Environment, the Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ministry of Health and Lord only knows what other ministries. Nobody is sure who has control. Those houseboats will be placed on the small inland waters and will take up a fair amount of what have already been classed as saturated lakes.

I hope the minister in conjunction with the Minister of Natural Resources will take a very serious look at what is happening to our lakes and how that reflects on tourism development in northwestern Ontario.

Because I am on the standing committee on resources development, I have had the opportunity to sit in on the estimates. Yesterday and the night before we talked about how concerned we were about the north. I know the minister is concerned about the north, as we are.

I look at the structure of the committee set up by the Minister of Housing (Mr. Curling), the Rent Review Advisory Committee. There is one representative from all of northern Ontario, from Ottawa west to the Manitoba border and from Toronto north to Hudson Bay. That is what we are to consider or call good representation and an opportunity for consultation.

I say to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines quite strongly that he has to be aware of what the other ministries are doing in northern Ontario. That is not good representation. He should pay attention to that kind of thing because it is happening and we are not being represented. As minister, he is our representative for northwestern and northern Ontario.

I ask him to take a very serious look at that. I have asked the Minister of Housing to look at including more representation from the north. I am sure the minister will want to do the same thing.

In travelling throughout the north, I have had an opportunity to sit with the chambers of commerce in northern Ontario and to study the responses to the recommendations of Mr. Fahlgren of the Royal Commission on the Northern Environment. The questions that are raised on numerous occasions in the areas I go through are: "When is the government of the day going to respond to the RCNE? Is it going to respond? Is the report going to be responded to in a piecemeal fashion just as occasion arises or as a question comes up? Is the government going to respond only to those specific questions?" I ask the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, is something being set up under his ministry to give an official response to the RCNE report?

As everybody in the House knows, and as the members who are no longer here know, there has been a lot of time and money, and particularly a lot of time, spent by a lot of northern people who put themselves out to make themselves available to provide input to the study. They now are awaiting anxiously the response of the government.

10:10 p.m.

Another item that has me between a rock and a hard place is the shoreline protection program that was announced by the Minister of Natural Resources in conjunction with the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Grandmaître). As the minister is aware, the areas we represent are not always part of municipalities, and yet we do have large areas with shorelines that require as much protection as those within municipalities.

I ask the minister whether it is within his ministry to either petition the other two ministers or at least look within the budget of the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines to provide some funds to assist the camp owners, the tourist operators and the other property owners on inland lakes, who are facing the same kinds of problems as those people on the Great Lakes waterways. High water is not restricted to the Great Lakes.

Before the Great Lakes suffer high-water levels, a number of inland lakes and waterways fill up. This is not the first time this topic has come up. The minister has inland lakes within his own area that are suffering from shoreline damage because of high waters. These areas do not come under the guidelines that were established by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Natural Resources.

I would like to address a number of other items, but I would also like the minister to respond to some of the items to which I have referred. Given the time, I will withhold my other comments and let the minister respond.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I thank my friend the member for Rainy River for his supportive remarks. He talked about EduCap and EldCap. These good programs were put in place by my friend the member for Kenora, and I give the former government full marks for them.

I am continuing them, and I approve at least five or six applications a month. Some areas were bypassed, and I do not know the reason. With regard to EldCap, Algoma riding was bypassed for many years. We approved three there and we will continue that support.

I was in Big Trout Lake a few months ago. We did not build an EldCap there, but a senior citizens' complex was approved by the federal government. They were ready to go ahead, but they had to cut $85,000. The chief was ready to cut the common room, and I told him, "Do not cut the common room because a senior citizens' complex without a common room -- you might as well not build it all." My ministry decided to pay for the common room there.

Those two programs the member was talking about, EldCap and EduCap, are up for review because they are at the end of their three years. We are now going to see how we can improve them, especially EduCap. Some small high schools now have better systems than the bigger ones.

I am now getting pressure from the bigger high schools. I was telling my friend the member for Sudbury East that an example in Hearst, Cochrane and in his area, is the equipment in the shops of those schools that was bought in 1967 or 1968. We will have to look into that and, through EduCap and the Minister of Education, try to make inroads with this.

As for the issue of houseboats, my ministry is discussing this with the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Eakins) and the Minister of Natural Resources. A few weeks ago I was telling the member for Kenora and the member for Sudbury East that my ministry is working on a ten-year strategy, but for this we have to work with other ministries. This sometimes frustrates me and my deputy minister, but we are going to keep on telling them of the need in the field of cottage lots.

I tell members sincerely that I do not see why a town like Ignace or Kapuskasing has no cottage lots. I did not do that; that is the previous minister or somebody. They put out a report in Kapuskasing that there were no lots for sale. Hearst was lucky. I do not why. Maybe somebody worked harder in the Ministry of Natural Resources office. This is an industry, and we have to keep our eyes on that.

We have to keep our eyes on that because, as I said to my honourable friend, working men in the north are not golfers and curlers. That group is a minority. So workers in the north and other people from the south who want to come north to have cottage lots should be allowed to do so. That is my personal thinking and the thinking of my ministry. I am going to suggest that some lots in the north should be up for sale to allow the people in the north to have their own lots, and other people in Ontario as well.

If they are Americans, I do not care. It is an industry, and it is the kind of industry we will have to capitalize on. As we were saying a few minutes ago, it is hard to move some industries, such as a Toyota plant, to the north, so we have to use other kinds of initiatives.

As for the northern representation for housing, I discussed that with the minister today and I will see what we can do. I want to remind my honourable friend that I have dealt with housing since 1972. Do members know how many civil servants worked for housing in the northeast? There was one. His name is Denis Desmeules. He lived in Sudbury and he had to cover Sault Ste. Marie, Parry Sound and all those ridings. One man. At least we can have more than one to work in the field as the representative on this committee. I have to admit I did not look at it. I heard that today from others. I will talk to the Minister of Housing who was here a few minutes ago.

Another way to get people involved -- like now we are here together but we must get the feedback from our grass roots. This is the way I wish the regional development would be planned, to help us. We are talking about representation on housing, and when we get feedback from the people it helps us to talk to the minister. We can say, "Here is what the people think and what they want." It is going to give them, and us too, a bigger voice at Queen's Park.

I received a letter yesterday from a municipal advisory committee member. He signed the letter because of the resolution, but he said he was a bit mad. I answered him today, saying that if one is going to supply nine or 10 development councils, with four or five members from the municipality, that is 50. Before they only had about 20.

We have to admit that some MACS were working well, but there were some that did not work well for many years. It all depends on the chairman. My friend the member for Kenora knows in the northeast the last one worked well, but the ones before did not work too well. Nobody went to the meetings. Then what happened? On the one that was working well this time, nobody was re-elected. Most of them lost the election; for example, Mr. Martin from Blind River or Elliot Lake. This way, by putting them on the other regional development councils, at least the people at large will not lose every three years or two years.

10:20 p.m.

We have the same problem with the native people. They have a chief and they have a good thing going. Then the chief loses the election and they have to start over again. With the natives in the north, we will have to establish a kind of development council, a culture committee. We will take not only the elected council but also outsiders as members.

I told municipal groups and others to form their own industrial co-operation council and take the people at large. If there is an election and one or two politicians lose. I tell the town to keep things going if possible, such as the nonprofit housing authority. I am prepared to help in that regard also. The ministry and the economic development corporation are prepared to help the smaller towns get organized in the nonprofit field.

Regarding the Royal Commission on the Northern Environment, I wonder whether Mr. Fahlgren thinks we are moving too slowly. We are moving as fast as we can, given the need to consult. A few moments ago I gave a list to the member for Algoma. I will not go through it again. I could give him a similar list of where we are and where we are going. The two groups that wish to make submissions on the royal commission should get them to me. We will review them carefully and talk to the groups involved.

It looks as though we are not doing anything, but members must remember some things were started before, such as the airport and the forest management agreements; they were part of all that.

Now we are negotiating with the natives and, as I say, we are working with them on the Mining Act and on the resources base. I met with David Crombie this week. I am suggesting to him some avenues with regard to forestry, fishing and mining. Now we are working on mining. I gave him some ideas on forestry to discuss with the Minister for Energy in the near future.

One area of the Fahlgren report we have not covered yet, and I mentioned it a bit tonight, is education. I am taking the Minister of Education up north in March. We are taking three days and maybe a week. We are going to the reserves. Sioux Lookout, Moosonee and the towns near the 50th parallel and north of the 51st. Mr. Fahlgren commented on northern high schools, but he did not say a large chunk of the funding and direction of education for natives comes from Ottawa.

I met with Mr. Crombie yesterday. We are going to form a working committee with my ministry and the Ministry of Education to figure out a plan of action for education for natives in the north. We are looking at using Sioux Lookout as a base. I have already discussed that with the Nishnawbe-Aski. They are going to their chief and we are looking at that. We do not believe there should only be one northern school for natives. There should be at least another one in the northwest.

The list is long of what we have done with the royal commission's report since we took over. I will give that to the member as a written response so he can see where we are going. He can add to it later. I cannot give a full response to that. I will make a checklist and the member can check it with what Mr. Fahlgren said, what the previous government did and where we are going. We are far advanced in some applications and very close to a breakthrough on others.

On the shoreline issue, I will bring that to the attention of my colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Natural Resources. We will examine the problem and I invite the member to bring it to their attention.

That was my response to the member for Rainy River.

Mr. Pierce: I thank the minister for his responses. Because we do have some time left, with the permission of the Chairman, I would like to address some other items.

The minister has not touched on some of the items I asked about: freight rates, fuel taxes, back-hauls, hydro along the main corridors, the highways on which people are required to run their own diesel generating plants at high cost and as a result are uncompetitive in the marketplace.

The minister knows how necessary roads are for providing an opportunity for secondary industries. I want to be sure the minister pays as much attention as previous governments have done to the development of roads in northern Ontario. He should also pay due attention to airport development and to assisting in the construction of helipads at hospitals, because there is certainly no advantage in extending 24-hour helicopter service in cases of emergency care if we have hospitals that have no landing areas. Perhaps the minister can respond to some of those items.

I am sure the minister found out when he was up north that education in the north in the native community is primarily a federal matter and that the bulk of the funds is provided by the federal government. In primary education, for example. the commitment to that education system by the federal government is much higher than that of the provincial government to schools serving other than native population. The per capita grants are much higher in the native community than they are in the organized communities.

So while he is in discussion with the Minister of Education on how they would best approach the native education program with the feds, I am sure he will also want to look at the other programs for the organized communities. I am sure he has been receiving petitions and letters from primary school teachers on the deficiency or the shortfall of funds, as have other members. If he would pay some attention to that and address it at the same time, I am sure it would be well received.

I specifically would like the minister to address the secondary industry situation and how it relates to communities in northwestern and northern Ontario, and to ensure that he will have input to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology in ensuring that the programs currently in place under that ministry, such as those that come under the Northern Ontario Development Corp., the Eastern Ontario Development Corp. and the Ontario Development Corp. will remain in place so that industry has an opportunity at least to get off the ground and get started. There is a great potential for secondary industry in northwestern Ontario if it is given a chance, and that chance, of course, has to have some assistance from the minister.

There have been some comments about Toyota plants. Every community in northwestern Ontario cannot expect to get a Toyota plant. but certainly the ministries can help the communities to develop in such a way that they may be able to provide some of the components that are required by such establishments as a Toyota plant. I know that the committee in the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines that is structured now to study single-resource communities will also be making some recommendations to the minister about those industries.

Maybe with that, the minister will have an opportunity to respond to some of those items and that will take the time of the committee.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I will answer those questions tomorrow.

On motion by Hon. Mr. Fontaine, the committee of supply reported progress.

The House adjourned at 10:30 p.m.