L176L - Sun 6 Apr 1997 / Dim 6 avr 1997

CITY OF TORONTO ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LA CITÉ DE TORONTO


Report continued from volume K.

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CITY OF TORONTO ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LA CITÉ DE TORONTO

Continuing consideration of Bill 103, An Act to replace the seven existing municipal governments of Metropolitan Toronto by incorporating a new municipality to be known as the City of Toronto / Projet de loi 103, Loi visant à remplacer les sept administrations municipales existantes de la communauté urbaine de Toronto en constituant une nouvelle municipalité appelée la cité de Toronto.

The Acting Chair (Mr Tony Martin): NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalecliff Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalecliff Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended" --

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): Point of order, Mr Chair: I would like to draw to your attention that this amendment and in fact every amendment we've dealt with in this sequence is quite contrary to the precepts of Beauchesne's and Erskine May, given that the most important principle to this amendment being introduced is that in fact correspondence should be sent out to what this amendment calls "residents," and then, of a particular street. The problem, Mr Chair, is that both under Erskine May and under Beauchesne's, it is absolutely impossible to introduce amendments which are vague.

The problem with the use of the word "resident" is that it is not defined in this bill, it is not used anywhere else in this bill. Also, it is not used in the Municipal Act itself. The term `resident' obviously could be applied any number of ways. You and I may have in our minds that it means voters or it means adults voters or it means voters that own property. It could be any possible number of definitions.

Interestingly enough, under the Education Act there have been needs over the years to redefine what a resident is for the purposes of the tax assessment. The problem you face here, Mr Chair, is that there is no similar definition in this bill. Because the word was not used earlier in this bill, and we have passed the stage in the legislation where definitions may be inserted, we cannot now go back and rethink what resident might be.

I would respectfully suggest that this amendment is out of order because it is vague, it does not say who those residents are that would be entitled, and more than that, you cannot even assume that it means electors who would normally be entitled to receive any notice from a municipality consistent with the sort of notice being sent out here. Electors in municipalities need not be resident; they only need to own property within the jurisdiction.

Because it neglects to define it, this bill is inconsistent with the standard which is currently in place in the Municipal Elections Act. It is defined in the municipal election act and it is undefined in this statute, and Mr Chair, we have no choice: Under Beauchesne and under Erskine May, since no two of us in this room probably have the same idea of what the word "resident" means, and who would be entitled to receive that notice legally if these amendments were subsequently passed, I must respectfully ask you to rule this amendment out of order.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): On a point of order: although I doubt very much that this is a point of order. The member opposite seems to want to introduce great mystery into the meaning of a word. Now, after this is passed into legislation, someone may want to go hire a lawyer to argue that resident has a particular meaning or that resident has an extraordinary meaning or that resident has an unusual meaning. I expect, no matter how we might try to define the word resident here and now, those arguments are going to take place in any case.

What the member is talking about is a legal issue which might arise after this passes into law or might not arise after this passes into law. What this member wants to talk about are what if's, maybe's, possibilities; that has nothing to do with whether or not this is in order. That has nothing to do with whether or not this amendment is relevant to the bill. This member wants to be a lawyer in practice. We are not in practice here. We are not applying this law.

The matter he wants to deal with may happen in a courtroom someday and it may happen in a courtroom someday, whether we try to define the term "resident" or whether we do not define the term resident, as he seems to want to do here. What he has, is the possibility of a legal problem somewhere, sometime. That is not at all an issue before the House now, nor will it ever be. I don't think the member has a point of order. He has a legal fantasy.

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Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): Mr Chair, I just want to add to this point before you rule that the member opposite is trying to make a lot out of the word "resident," in this motion, as if this is a notion that is somehow strange to people in trying to understand what is meant by "resident."

Perhaps I could make the point this way: If you were to ask people like Peter and Mary Jansen what the word "resident" means, if you were to ask Joe Di Donato what the word resident means, if you were to ask people like Elio Pagliei what the word "resident" means, they will tell you, because they are four residents of Cafon Court, people that I actually talked to last night and who have no qualms and no hesitation about being residents now of a street in Metropolitan Toronto that, if this bill passes, will have an incredible responsibility not just on their own behalf, but in fact on behalf of the rest of the residents of Metropolitan Toronto.

With the amendment that was passed last night that has this concept of residents in it, we know that those individuals will have to be consulted before the government proceeded with any regulations under this act. Now, of course, we still don't know what is going to happen to this piece of legislation before we're finished with it here, but we have to work on the assumption that if this does pass, then there will be an issue of interpreting the word "resident."

Let me just say that there is enough precedent, both in the courts of this land and this province and throughout the practice, to leave no doubt in anybody's mind that when we are talking about residents, we are talking about people that in fact live on those streets. Whether they rent, whether they own, that is irrelevant. If there is an issue that's outstanding that somebody wants to question, that's up to the courts to determine and that's up to anybody that wants to question. The test here is not whether there is a definition for every word or every term in the legislation. There is no such requirement. There is no such requirement: that every term be defined.

Good common sense comes into play, something which of course the members opposite seem to conveniently forget from time to time. There is no issue about this amendment being vague. This amendment is very clear. It sets out a process whereby the government would have to inform residents who live on the various streets set out in the amendments before they could proceed with putting in place any regulations under this act the would affect them as residents. It's quite clear. It's quite straightforward. There is nothing vague about it except for, perhaps, in the member's mind.

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): I wonder, over the course of the next many days, how many new ways government members will attempt to find in order to challenge the order of amendments which the Speaker has clearly and repeatedly found to be in order. Mr Chair, I think the intent of this is absolutely clear. This amendment seeks to give to the residents, those who live on Dalecrest Drive, exactly the same rights and privileges that the government has seen fit to extend to those who live on Cafon Court.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): I want to address this point of order seriously, although I see it as a series of attempts by the government to get themselves out of dealing with the very many important amendments that have been put forward.

I want to tell you that I believe there is a very, very high test that must be met for an amendment in fact to be found to be vague. In fact, in this Legislature, while we are looking up the exact precedent, it appears that 1904 was the last time that an amendment was ruled out of order for its vagueness. I state to you first of all that the test is a very high test.

Secondly, I would point out to you that in virtually every piece of legislation that has passed through the Legislature, you will find at the beginning of that a list of definitions. I would assert that not all words that are referred to in the legislation will be set out and defined. So there are many words of common usage that you will find in legislation in which intelligent people would in fact look to the common- sense application of that word and the common usage of that word.

I would suggest that for the definition, if not spelled out, you might revert to other sources of definitions, like the dictionary, and I happen to have the Oxford Dictionary here. The definition for "resident" is "a permanent inhabitant," and it gives you some examples, "of a town or neighbourhood" and of course, in this case, we're talking of a street.

The second argument that I would like to put to you is that there must in fact be an element of timeliness as well with respect to arguments that are raised. This member has, on a number of occasions, raised points of order with respect to the orderliness of the amendments. He has raised the argument of vagueness before and may I say that I think in fact his argument may be untimely at this point, given that the majority government in this House, by not stating any objection to the residents of Cafon Court being consulted -- and the passage of the amendment yesterday, when they did not state any objection to the passage of that amendment -- have passed into this bill which will then be considered on third reading and, I would assume, would pass on third and final reading. They have passed already an amendment into this bill containing "residents," so for that reason as well, I would believe that it would be inappropriate for you to rule that the point of order is indeed in order.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): Just on whether this is in order or not, I think we all recognize that we have been dealing with this amendment for some time. It is clear that we have set out in this amendment a process for consultation. I think the public that are watching this now recognize what the government is trying to do, for what it is: to now raise that somehow or other this is out of order when, in one case, they actually supported this resolution.

Secondly, I think it clearly spells out a process for consultation, and what the government is attempting to do is to once again deny people in Metropolitan Toronto an opportunity to have a say and an input into their future.

I remind people of the importance of this amendment: Mike Harris, when he was in opposition, promised that he would keep the city of Scarborough. He's getting rid of it. And 75% of the people said they don't want the megacity and now he's proceeding with it. What this amendment now proposes is a way of consultation.

Interjections.

Mr Phillips: The public probably hears some noise now. It is the government members angry that there is now going to be a process in place for some consultation on the final bill.

Mr Chair, as I say, we've been dealing with this amendment for some time. It is clear now that the government is attempting to find some straw to slow the process down and I would remind the public: The government itself supported one of these amendments yesterday.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I find that this is a very desperate but pitiful attempt to thwart and slow down the democratic process in fact. He argues that somehow the word "resident" is either vague and or it needs to be defined. I know the residents of Montrose Street have no problem understanding who they are. I know that the residents of Shaw Street and Crawford Street and Grace and Clinton and Manning and Palmerston and Markham and Bathurst, they all understand who they are.

It's people who live in those homes or people who rent those homes. It includes people who are citizens and non-citizens alike. It includes people who own property, who do not own property. It includes them all; it is a very inclusive term, and they know who they are. By the way, they will all be affected by the outcome of this particular bill that you are trying to force down our throats here in Metro. There is a great deal of clarity by the residents, and I see this attempt again to slow you down, Mr Chair, and to prolong this quite unnecessarily. This in order, and I hope you would rule that out of order as immediately as you can.

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Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I have great sympathy for the member bringing this plea to you to rule this amendment, and I presume every subsequent amendment, as being irregular or somehow out of order because of the failure of any amendment to define "resident." I understand that. I understand the difficulty that he has as a member of his caucus who has aspirations, no two ways about it. I understand, he has aspirations. He's an eager, capable person, in his own mind, and I understand why he would want to bring forward this plea to the Chair.

His concern, as I understand it, is that the amendment doesn't define "resident." Chair, I'm going to tell you something: I confess, I have not read all 12,000, and far be it for me to suggest that there isn't an amendment, perhaps 12,499, that indeed does define "residents" and any objection would be premature, but that's not the point.

I've got to caution people sitting here that you can't respond to me nor can you gesture, but if you remember that Dalton Trumbo book where you blink twice, okay. Up there in the back -- Don, don't nod your head or don't raise your arm, but blink twice if you're a resident of Toronto. He did, Chair. Marilyn, blink twice if you're a resident. She's a resident. Blink twice -- they're a resident of Toronto. These are people who are property owners --

Interjection: Where is the dignity in this place?

Mr Kormos: The dignity in this place escaped in June 1995.

My colleague from Beaches-Woodbine -- and here we are 21 minutes and 37 seconds into this debate, but it's an important debate.

Mrs McLeod: It's not a debate. You can't debate.

Mr Kormos: It's a quasi-debate, Mrs McLeod, because we're on a point of order. It's a point of order.

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener): Then speak to the point of order.

Mr Kormos: Here we are 21 minutes and 58 seconds -- 22 minutes into the debate on this point of order --

Mr Gilchrist: Mr Chair, how about getting him to speak to the point of order?

Mr Kormos: -- about the issue of whether or not the failure to define "resident" somehow renders these amendments incapable of being considered by this assembly.

One of the considerations you ought to take into mind, Chair, is the timeliness of this. Here we go. He's waited until we get to the d-a's -- well, the d, sub a. Granted, that's only the third letter of the alphabet and the beginning of that list. Where are we now? Are we at one sixth-plus through the number of amendments, the member for Beaches-Woodbine?

Ms Lankin: One sixth, I think.

Mr Kormos: The people from Dalecrest Drive watching this and listening to this now, the residents of Dalecrest Drive -- that doesn't confuse you, Chair. I understand that you understand when I refer to the residents of Dalecrest Drive, know what residents are, and the member for Beaches-Woodbine has referred to that useful tool. When somebody has difficulty with plain language, they can refer to a dictionary. They're available in most libraries; not for long, because those are the libraries that this government is shutting down in towns across Ontario in places like Welland, Thorold and Pelham. Those are the libraries that this government is shutting down. They're available in most schools but not for long, because libraries and schools are among the first things that are going to go as this government de-funds education across the province of Ontario and Bill 104 is going to be part and parcel of that de-funding. But I tell you, at the moment, dictionaries are available, and the Oxford English Dictionary, along with Webster and countless others, will permit this member and anybody else considering this legislation to know what the word "resident" means.

Having said that, I should refer you, Chair, to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms. The member with his point of order speaks to the failure of this amendment by virtue of its vagueness. That's the thrust of his objection. That's the body of it. Well, I refer you to Beauchesne to tell you what it says about the standard that an amendment has to meet. I refer you to what is section 570 in Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 6th edition, published by Carswell Co Ltd, 1989 and that's on page 175, Chair. I know you have it with you. The annotation number 570: "An amendment cannot be ruled out because of its vagueness."

Again, Chair: "An amendment cannot be ruled out because of its vagueness."

Chair, there's no vagueness here. A resident is a resident is a resident. Residents of the six cities of Metropolitan Toronto are eagerly awaiting the passage in each and every one of these amendments so that they can have a little bit of democracy in the process too. We know that the residents of Cafon Court --

The Acting Chair: I think the member has made his point.

Mr Kormos: -- we know that they have had access to democracy. Let's give some same access to residents of others.

Chair, I would urge this on you: I would urge you to rule against this point of order and do it in a way that is so dismissive, so scathing, with such disregard for the argument of the author of the point of order -- you might even take a strip off his hide in the course of doing it -- so that he feels compelled to call upon the Speaker by way of challenging the Chair. Chair, I want you to reject this point of order with such venom and vigour that the member compels you to call upon the Speaker by way of a challenge. Thank you, Chair.

The Acting Chair: I found that exchange interesting and in keeping with the nature of this place. As Chair, I believe I cannot rule on a legal issue or potential legal issue; that is for the courts. Nor is it for the Chair to determine the legal meaning of the word "resident" or if there are residents on the street mentioned in this motion, so I find the motion in order.

Mr Gilchrist: Mr Chair, with the greatest of respect, I appreciate your ruling but I must respectfully challenge it and ask you to summon the Speaker. Thank you.

The committee rose and requested a ruling of the Speaker.

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The Acting Chair: Mr Speaker, the committee of the whole has risen to report that a ruling of the Chair has been appealed.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Please be seated.

The member for Scarborough East.

Mr Gilchrist: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate your helping us out on this issue.

The point on which I rose was to suggest that, in reading the amendment, one of the most pivotal points on which the entire script revolves is in fact the word "residents." As you're aware, the -- whatever -- 1,500 amendments we have processed so far and the thousands yet to come each are delineated by street within the boundaries of Metropolitan Toronto, and outside, for that matter. In every case, it talks about the residents of that street.

The problem arises that the word "resident" is not defined anywhere in the bill. It is not used in the body of the bill itself. It is also not defined in the Municipal Act, which this act seeks to open up, nor is it mentioned in any of the other subsidiary acts: the City of Toronto Act, the City of Scarborough Act etc.

The fact of the matter, Mr Speaker, is that under a variety of authorities, starting with Erskine May, amendments to bills being put in committee are out of order if they are vague. The same is said in Beauchesne, and I'll quote. Section 698 -- and the member for Welland-Thorold might want to refer to that section because he quoted earlier from an incorrect section -- is about the admissibility of amendments in committee. It says, "(3) An amendment is out of order if it is offered at the wrong place...if it is tendered to the committee in a spirit of mockery or if it is vague...."

Mr Speaker, I would draw your attention to a ruling by Speaker Bosley in the federal Parliament on April 30, 1985, during the processing of C-15. The Speaker was called upon to make a ruling on a number of amendments quite similar to this one. In particular, the Speaker suggested that motions 42 through 49 standing in the name of Mr Axworthy introduced into the bill two definitions which were not in the original bill and were not foreseen when the bill was given second reading. Mr Axworthy argued that "cultural heritage" and "national identity" were not defined in the clause but, notwithstanding that, they were commonly known idioms, speech, and as such, there was no need to put a definition in the bill. Clearly, something like "cultural heritage" means very different things to different people, as would "national identity."

In his ruling, the Speaker disallowed those amendments. He ruled that they were out of order. He ruled that since they were not foreseen when the bill was adopted by the House at second reading, these motions could not be accepted in committee.

In earlier conversations we have had, various challenges, you yourself have said there are only two authorities to which you can refer: Beauchesne and Erskine May. You said Perly's was not an authority. With the greatest of respect, I would suggest that also allows us to infer that the Oxford Dictionary or Webster's or anything else is not an authority to which you could refer.

Let me go further, because this is a very earnest and a very serious challenge. In fact, in the arguments made by members opposite against my original point of order, we had two different members in a row stand up and give two totally different definitions of what their understanding of "residents" was. One member stood up and recited the names of the adults living in certain homes. Another member stood up and cited a definition that said everyone that lives there. Clearly, in the absence of any definition in the original act, in this new bill or, quite frankly, provided for in the amendments themselves, "residents" could mean adults, it could be adults eligible to vote, it could be anyone living there, but more importantly, Mr Speaker, it adds another element of confusion.

As you are well aware, in municipalities the case right now is that to be an elector, and so I make the point that you can't infer that "resident" means "elector," anyone who owns property is eligible to vote and to receive any official notices relating to the sort of regulation that this amendment proposes to communicate. So you don't have to live on a particular street; you need to own property on a particular street. The suggestion here again is that only some people who currently receive notices, who are currently treated as a group within the context of all municipal correspondence or all correspondence from this government related to property matters and voting matters, will in fact be differentiated. It does not speak to all of those people.

My final point I will leave for your consideration is that in their amendment, they themselves have improperly or perhaps imprudently put in their own qualification, which adds to the confusion. It says "the residents of" -- fill in the street -- "living in the urban area." Now, Mr Speaker, the only inference is somehow you could have residents who aren't living in the urban area who would not be entitled to receive the correspondence, who would not be allowed to comment. How can you, on the one hand, say you are a resident of a street and still have to define that it is in the urban area, as opposed to saying "any resident"?

The bottom line, Mr Speaker, in all of this is that both the authorities, which you quite correctly told us earlier in these proceedings are the only authorities which can be cited, in both cases make a very clear point. I don't want to belabour the point here now, but I could cite literally another half dozen previous rulings on exactly this point where concepts, where words which were not part of the original bill cannot be introduced at a later stage if there is any vagueness, if there is any confusion.

Mr Speaker, my submission to you is, a word like "resident" is burdened with a variety of possible interpretations. It is vague. It does undermine the specificness that amendments must have when they are brought forward and considered in this House. I would ask you to rule this amendment and any similar amendment out of order for that reason. Thank you.

Mr Hampton: Speaker, the member opposite is trying to create legal confusion which might be of interest to a court. In fact, what he's talking to you about, what he's addressing here is not a point of order; it's a point lawyers might argue about, might argue about in a court of law someday.

Speaker, we might choose here to give the term "resident" a particular definition. We might choose to give it a narrow definition; we might choose to give it a broad definition. Whatever choice we make, it's very likely that someday a lawyer or lawyers may go to court and argue for a host of different meanings for the word "resident." I expect lawyers will do that. That's what lawyers get paid to do, to argue for a narrow interpretation, a broad interpretation. That might happen some day down the line.

The possibility that a lawyer might choose to take that issue to court or any one of 100 other issues to court and argue about the meaning of those words is not, I would submit, the matter for a point of order here. The fact of the matter is the word "resident" has a fairly common and accepted meaning. The fact of the matter is that, as has been pointed out by one of my colleagues, someone could resort to the Oxford Dictionary to discern what that fairly common meaning is.

There's nothing vague about the word "resident." There's absolutely nothing vague abut it. The fact of the matter is the meaning of the word "resident" is not vague at all. And the use of the word "resident" in this section of the bill does not lead to vagueness either.

Now I want to take issue with this member's point that amendments can and should be ruled out for vagueness. I don't concede, as I've already argued, that there's any vagueness here. I don't in fact believe that there's any vagueness at all. I think there's a fairly good understanding of this word and a fairly good understanding of what it means in this section of the bill. But if you should find that there is vagueness, I would also point out to you that there is authority in Beauchesne that amendments should not be ruled out for vagueness.

So, in my humble opinion, the member is not only wrong in asserting that there's something vague about the word "resident" as employed in this section of the bill, he's also wrong about the precedent. I would refer you to page 175 in Beauchesne, section 570: "an amendment cannot be ruled out because of its vagueness." I would point that out to you. I think that is just as sufficient precedent as anything the member opposite may think he has discovered.

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Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): Mr Speaker, just consider one thing. If you were to accept the member from Scarborough East's interpretation of how amendments can be instituted on the vagueness qualifier, this government was arguing that they had the ability to be vague in the argument they had about their amendments on the community councils. They said, basically, we'll set them up in a vague form so a new council can set up whatever they think is appropriate.

Also, another amendment they had in terms of the creation of neighbourhood committees is they are another example that essentially what the government is doing is putting forth somewhat of a vague concept: a neighbourhood committee, to be defined either by regulation or by performance of the act, the carrying out of the act. So if you were to restrict a piece of legislation on the grounds of vagueness, you can see how impossible it would be for any government to pass any detailed type of legislation. I think what really refutes this point of order by the government is their own amendments that they put forth just the other day on community councils, which are purposely vague, and they've admitted that. Even in their own legislation they referred to neighbourhood councils, and nobody really knows exactly what they're going to do. They're going to be defined by the community at large, going to be defined later in the bill.

Mr Phillips: Mr Speaker, I think we have to remember the intent of this motion, and it's under the heading of "public consultation." What are we trying to achieve with the amendment? It's not to limit the public consultation just to the electors or just to those people who may vote in a provincial election but to the residents of an area, and the residents may or may not include electors. I think that the definition "the residents" is exactly what's implied, and that is the people that live there. It's consistent with public consultation. As I say, if the mover of the amendment had wanted to limit it to just people who were eligible to vote, we could have said that. But no, with significant regulations that are going to impact on a neighbourhood, we should not limit ourselves to people being able to comment on them and be aware of them. As it says here, the intent of this is so that those residents will be able to get a copy of the proposed regulations; the intent is to tell the members of the public where and how to obtain without charge a copy of the act; advise members of the public of their rights under the paragraphs; and advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for public hearings should be sent.

Mr Speaker, in your ruling I'm sure you'll take into consideration the intent of the motion, which is broad public consultation involving all of the residents of a community. Whether they are or not on the voter's list is in many respects irrelevant to their ability and their right to comment on regulations affecting their neighbourhood. I would find it very strange if we were not able to include in the public consultation process all the residents. Therefore, Mr Speaker, I would respectfully suggest that the motion very much is in order.

Mr Silipo: Speaker, the issue that's before you in terms of whether this amendment should be ruled out of order because it's vague as Mr Gilchrist would argue I think you need to look at in the context of the amendment as it's presented and the approach that's obviously been taken traditionally to this. That is, that it's not your role to determine the legality of terms. That's the role of the courts. It is your role to establish in determining whether this is vague or not, whether it presents a framework, a proposal that on its face makes sense. I suggest to you that the amendment as it is structured, on its face, makes ample sense because you yourself have found it to be in order when it was challenged earlier on the allegation that it was trifling. In fact I think we even heard some arguments at that point from government members that it was vague and I think you dealt in your ruling in part with that, although perhaps not directly on the question of vagueness at that stage. But the amendment as presented sets out a structure, a scheme whereby before regulations under this act are enacted, there has to be a process of notice and a process of consultation with residents of various streets.

The term "residents" is a broadly used term, it's a common term that people understand. There's nothing in precedent or in the rules of this House that every term used in a piece of legislation has to be defined. And when the terms are not defined, again, the courts refer to common usage when they are called upon to interpret. But the question is, if they are called upon to interpret them, it is not the role of the legislation to necessarily define every term, nor is it the role of the Speaker to ensure that every piece of legislation has every term defined. I think it would be really stretching this, Mr Speaker, for you to be asked to find that that would have to happen. To find that this is vague you would have to find at the end of the day that the term "resident" needs to be defined and because it's not defined this is vague. It isn't required that it be defined, it isn't vague, because it's a commonly used term which is another basic reference point in the way that legislation is structured and eventually interpreted when challenged in the courts.

And just to conclude on one point with respect to why the reference to the urban areas, if somehow that makes the point for the member opposite; I'm sure he would have been equally arguing if that wasn't included that a street like Yonge Street for example, which runs inside the urban area as defined in this legislation, and outside, that there might be some confusion if we didn't have the term "in the urban area" in here. Or, equally a street like Queen Street, which is commonly found not just in Toronto but indeed in a number of municipalities across the province, that somehow that might relate to that. The term "in the urban area" which is defined in this act, clearly confines the application of this particular amendment.

But I just want to conclude by reiterating again the broader point that you cannot find this amendment to be vague because for you to find so you would have to be stretching your role to in effect put yourself in a position of playing a role of a judge, which is not your job.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham East): Mr Speaker, it's my pleasure to get up and support briefly the member from Scarborough East's argument with respect to the term "resident." I'd ask everyone here to think about what that terms means. When I looked at the proposed NDP amendments, and I re-read and it said "no regulation that may effect the residents of a particular street," in thinking of it I thought of my days when I lived in Toronto while attending the University of Toronto, and I was a resident; I was a resident of a fraternity or whatever kind of arrangement it was. Think about the term. Is there an age appropriateness to this? Is it all teenagers? Is it boarders within the residence, people residing in campgrounds? You could also go on add nauseam on the thing and I think it is vague enough that it really needs to be completely defined. It's important to recognize that indeed the importance to clearly define in the definitions sections all the words that are specifically directing the ministry or the staff to take ceratin actions. They have to be defined, as they are in the Planning Act, which you know a lot of this is defined in the Planning Act where people have to be notified of certain changes.

But I suggest respectfully to you, Speaker, that the term "resident" is vague, and in conclusion I would ask every member here and every person watching and listening here today to think about what would be the appropriate age in your mind. Would it be 12 years old or eight years old or six years old? The residents.

I think it's important to dwell on. The "residents" is so broad that it is vague. It needs to be defined, and if it does, then I conclude that the amendment itself is vague enough that it is out of order.

0110

Mrs McLeod: I'll be very brief, but I do feel as though I should rise and make some measure of apology to the member for Scarborough East, because I had suggested earlier that he was looking simply for novel ways of challenging a ruling which you have repeatedly made that the amendments before us are indeed in order, and that, given the lateness of the date and the lateness of the hour, his point of order could hardly be taken seriously. But I accept the fact that he has said to you that it is a serious point of order that he raises.

Given that I believe the member for Scarborough East is parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, if that's correct, if he has serious concerns about the definition of "residents" as it applies to the residents of Dalecrest Drive named in this particular amendment, then he would have similar concerns about the definition of "residents" as they apply to the residents of Cafon Court, who are of course named in the government-approved amendment which will be accompanying this bill.

Since I accept the seriousness of his proposal and therefore of his concern, I would respectfully suggest that the parliamentary assistant seek to withdraw this bill until there can be the clarification that he seeks.

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): I'm rising to support the member for Scarborough East with respect to his point of order that this amendment is vague, and he is basing that on authority from the 6th edition of Beauchesne's, page 207, which talks about an amendment being out of order "if it is offered at the wrong place in the bill, if it's tendered to the committee in a spirit of mockery or" -- and I think this is the point that he's relying on -- "if it is vague or trifling." I think the issue that's he's emphasizing with respect to his submissions to you is that it is vague.

The whole purpose of this amendment, as I understand it, is to give notice to the residents of the various streets in these series of amendments. It's important who one gives notice to, and that is the design of the amendment.

If you look at the different wordings that are used with respect to subsection (4), it talks initially of the residents of the particular street living in the urban area, and that carries on on the first subpoint.

Then in the second subpoint, it refers to members of the public. It doesn't even refer to residents living in the urban area. It says that the following conditions must be satisfied, and the first has to do with residents living in the urban area.

Then it says, "The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public." I quite frankly don't know what that means. Does that mean members of the public living on the particular street? Does it mean members of the public in the urban area? Does it mean members of the public living anywhere in the province? It doesn't say that. It simply says "members of the public."

Then in subsection (3) it reverts to yet another description. It talks about "10 or more persons" requesting a public hearing within 30 days. We've now moved to another description. We've moved from residents living in the urban area to members of the public to 10 or more persons.

With due respect to the members of the New Democratic Party who drafted this amendment, it is a very poorly drafted amendment. I would suggest that it is vague. There are other pieces of legislation both in the province and in the federal government that talk very specifically of what a resident is. Why do they do that?

For example, the income tax, who are we going to tax? When do you become a resident to be specifically taxed with respect to living in our country? There's a section in the Income Tax Act that says how long you have to live there to be a resident. There are other sections. To qualify for health coverage, you have to live in the province of Ontario -- the health minister's not here -- I don't know how many number of days it is, but you have to be a resident in the province for a certain number of days, and if you don't, you don't get health coverage.

There are other qualifications. The Minister of Education is here and we talked earlier of --

Mr Kormos: That is going to help us.

Mr Hampton: Careful, this is not his forte.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Tilson: We talked about the qualification of a residency for attending certain schools, and that is defined in the Education Act. So every piece of legislation talks about that qualification. This piece of legislation, the amendments that have been put forward by the members of the third party, does not do that. Yes, the member for Durham East is quite correct, there are all kinds of possibilities as to who are residents. He talked about students residing in an area for a particular period of time. He talked about infants. Infants are residents. I know that sounds silly, but --

Ms Lankin: I guess if they ask to appear at the public hearings you would have --

The Speaker: The member for Beaches-Woodbine.

Mr Tilson: The member says, yes, if they ask to appear, but is that the intent? Is everyone from all ages given the right to attend? You haven't said that.

The description as to who are residents clearly is not in this piece of legislation. People from other countries who may be visiting as tourists, may be coming for a short period of time --

Interjection: There you are.

Mr Tilson: The member says, "There you are." But I'll tell you, it's very important as to who qualifies for this specific amendment. I would submit that that has not been done, and I think the members in the New Democratic caucus say, "Well, these are matters for our courts," that these matters should be dealt in a court of law. Surely, when we're creating legislation in this place, we try to be a little bit specific to provide guidance as to who you're going to give notice to, who is a certain individual, who qualifies for this specific piece of legislation. Do we allow everyone around the world to qualify? That's absolutely silly.

There is a certain responsibility on all of us, whatever government it is, in preparing legislation to be very specific as to who we're talking about. This amendment doesn't do that. I submit it is vague, and for the reasons given by the member for Scarborough East, I would submit that it be ruled that all of these and this amendment, the succeeding amendments dealing with the same subsection and the previous amendments dealing with this same section, are all vague and should be struck out as being vague.

The Speaker: Again, I don't want to cut anyone off. Points of order are very important. I will hear them. Again, I've heard a very broad cross-section from each caucus. If you could just be succinct and to the point, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Ms Lankin: Mr Speaker, there are three basic points that I want to address. You've heard the arguments already about the fact that once the legislation is passed there may well be differences of interpretation that are resolved through a legal process. I won't go over that.

I would say what I've heard from a number of members in this debate about whether or not they think the amendment is a good amendment or not, and had there been time for debating those amendments, there may well have been further amendments that come from that, but under the time allocation process, as you know, we were unable to pursue that. Whether or not it is wise to have definitions of many more terms that may be found in this legislation or other legislation does not make the term vague or does not make that a point of order. It speaks to the appropriateness of the debate and whether members support particular amendments and/or bills that come before the Legislature.

The two main points that I do want to address with you are that the member for Scarborough East himself referred to a ruling in the Parliament of Canada by Speaker Bosley in which Speaker Bosley himself talked about certain terms that have common usage. I would think that "residents" would fall very, very nicely into that description of a term that has common usage. In fact, if you look to a dictionary definition of "resident," it is not a complicated term, it is not one that is open to a lot of interpretation. It's simply in the Oxford Dictionary referred to as "a permanent inhabitant" and it gives examples, "of a town or of a neighbourhood." In this case, we've been actually more specific as opposed to being vague by saying it is a resident of a particular street in the urban area. So we have actually given it greater definition. We're talking about permanent residents on a particular street in the urban area.

The second point I want to raise with you is one of timeliness. I pointed out earlier that the government majority in fact, by not objecting to the term "residents" in an amendment with respect to the residents of Cafon Court, have passed an amendment to this bill already which contains the exact same wording. I believe that is a second argument for you to look at.

0120

Mr John L. Parker (York East): I will endeavour to keep my remarks brief. I just have a few points to make, drawing in some respect on points that have been made already. I think it's important to bear in mind that the term in question, "residents," is pivotal to this entire suggested amendment. It's not an incidental term to the amendment; it is the key term to the thrust of the entire amendment.

If there's any vagueness to that term, then the entire provision falls. If we can't pin down with some certainty, with some clarity what is meant by the term "residents" in this case, then the entire effect of the amendment is of no effect. So it is absolutely certain that we be clear as to what we mean by this term. It is therefore hard to understand why it is not given a definition within the amendment or why a definition of some authority in the act or elsewhere is not referred to. We are left to surmise what is to be understood by the term "residents."

We're told that this is for the courts to decide. An element that is so central to the effect and the meaning of the provision is not something that this Legislature should leave to the courts to decide. The courts look to this House for some guidance as to what is to be meant by the term. The courts must take their guidance from this House, and it is the responsibility of this House to provide that guidance. What we have here is something that entirely fails to provide that guidance.

Apart from the points that have been made already, I note that the term is referred to in the plural in this suggested amendment. We're not clear on how many residents are to be included. Is it all the residents of the street? Is it some of the residents of the street? One thing we do know is that it's not a single resident of the street. If only one resident of the street is affected and the other residents of the street are not affected, then this provision does not apply, because this provision does not apply to any resident of the street; it applies to residents, plural, of the street.

After having done that, it is then qualified, having opened the category up to residents, there is then a qualifying provision that says "residents...living in the urban area." The point has been made, well, Queen Street, there are Queen Streets in various places around the province. Yonge Street extends beyond the urban area, but the qualifying term "living in the urban area" does not qualify the street; it qualifies residents.

In this particular case, Dalecrest Drive is entirely within the urban area. So the expression "residents of Dalecrest Drive living in the urban area" is either a redundancy or it's a qualifier that confuses the term "residents." Again, I emphasize that the term "residents" is the pivotal term in the entire provision, and for that to be so seriously vague undermines the effect of the entire provision.

The point has also been made that there are terms in the bill that are left for greater definition in due course. The term "community council" was used as an example. It's not the same thing. It is one thing for a bill to use a general term for which greater particularity is to be developed in the fullness of time, either by regulation or, as is suggested in this bill, by the municipal council itself after incorporation in 1998. That is a general term, not a vague term. This is not a general term. This is simply a vague term that we are talking about here, not the same thing at all.

For all of those reasons, and for the other reasons that have been put forward already by my friend from Scarborough East and my friend from Dufferin-Peel, I recommend that you rule in favour of the submission.

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training):Mr Speaker, I too would like to stand in support of this point of order from the member for Scarborough East, although I want to point out very clearly to the Chair that I am in no way supporting his choice of shirts this morning.

But I do think this is a serious matter. I think it has been pointed out by the member for Dufferin-Peel that there are a number of interpretations of "resident" in a number of different acts, that there has been a lot of litigation in the past about residency, and there have been a variety of different challenges.

I cannot find the logic in the argument made by some of our colleagues on the other side that somehow this should be left to the direction of the courts. I certainly agree that the courts can make whatever ruling on legislation that they deem, but this amendment does not charge the courts with doing anything.

This amendment is very specific: It charges the minister of the crown responsible to make certain contacts, and it makes those contacts so vague as to leave it unclear whether the minister has kept up with the amendment, has in fact stayed within the limits of the legislation or not. The minister in question can make contact with some of the public and it could be said that he has not upheld this particular amendment. So it is a critical point because a minister of the crown could not know whether he was complying or not complying, and surely that should be contained in the legislation.

Mr Gilchrist: On a final point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: It may be your final point, member for Scarborough East.

Mr Gilchrist: Just to respond to some of the comments that have been made earlier. I really think what you have heard here is proof positive of the different definitions that people have, the different interpretations that can be made of this. This is not something that is subject to some legal challenge in the future. We are being asked to make a judgement on this right now.

Let me give you just one other ruling. I know it's an awesome responsibility for the table and for the Chair to try and maintain a knowledge of all these previous rulings. You had mentioned precedent -- again, in Ottawa in July 1977 the Honourable James Jerome ruled on certain amendments put forward by Mr Mazankowski, which sought to make certain operations of Air Canada subject to public hearings and, again, because the motion introduced elements and terms that were foreign to the original bill, and for only those reasons, the Honourable Mr Jerome ruled that those amendments were out of order.

We have an absolute inability to rationalize what exactly is meant by "residents." Again, the point was made earlier, we can't use dictionaries. We can't use other things. In fact, I find it incredibly interesting that the member opposite read from the Concise Oxford Dictionary, and its definition of "resident" and "residence" is almost completely different. It speaks of just "to dwell in" or "dwelling at a specified place, especially for the performance of duties," so presumably we are residents of this building.

I remember when the squatters took over certain vacant buildings on Toronto Island. Would they have been considered residents to whom legal notice would have had to be sent? Would the residents of a motel and a hotel, the people in there, would they be required -- but, again, we have precedent. We have Beauchesne. We have the conversations you have heard in this House in the course of speaking to this point of order.

With the greatest of respect, Mr Speaker, this is an extraordinarily vague word. It introduced a new concept and, therefore, as specified in Beauchesne and Erskine May, is completely out of order.

The Speaker: I appreciate your submissions. If I could just take a 10-minute recess to review and I'll report back.

The House recessed from 0128 to 0145.

The Speaker: I'd like to thank the members again for their submissions. Let me start by saying, and I've said this on a number of occasions in the past: A Speaker cannot rule on a legal issue or potential legal issue; that is, simply put, for the courts to decide. Nor is it for the Speaker to determine the legal meaning of the word "resident," or if there are residents on the street mentioned in the motion.

From a procedural point of view, a committee encounters vagueness when it is presented with a proposition the meaning of which it cannot reasonably determine. I do not believe the motion at hand falls into that category.

The effect and impact of the motion, if it is passed, is, I think, straightforward and easy to determine. It has a link to the framework of the bill and is, therefore, not vague from the view of the ability of the committee to ascertain its essential meaning. It is my view that an informed reader of this motion can reasonably understand what is meant and what a "resident" is. For these reasons, I find the motion in order and uphold the ruling of the Chair.

House in committee of the whole.

Mr Colle: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: A constituent of mine, Anita Kragnc, is here celebrating her 30th birthday, and she's here on this historic occasion to support the fight.

Mr Garry J. Guzzo (Ottawa-Rideau): She may well be here on her 35th too.

The Acting Chair (Tony Martin): A New Democratic Party motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalecrest Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalecrest Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mr Wettlaufer: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: In the many years leading up to my election I always felt that the dignity of this place was something to be respected and preserved forever. Mr Chair, prior to the ruling and during discussion on the last point of order, the member for Welland-Thorold got up and imputed motive to the member for Scarborough East. In addition to that, he said, and I believe I'm quoting word for word, that the member for Scarborough East is very talented in his own mind.

I think this reflects very negatively on the dignity of this place, that one member would say such about another member. You know, Mr Chair, that the member for Welland-Thorold has been called to order a number of times in this legislative day, which is still Wednesday, and I wonder how many times he is going to be called to order before he will finally be named because of the fact that he is calling the dignity of this place into question.

The Second Deputy Chair (Mr Bert Johnson): That is not a point of order, but I see several demonstrations in this chamber. I'll give the members a couple of minutes, if they're close by, to stop them. I'll have the security check the button on the man in the gallery in the second row, left lapel, and if it's fine, it's fine; if it's a political statement, it's not fine.

Mr Phillips: It's a rotary pin.

The Second Deputy Chair: That's good; it's just that I can't see it from down here.

Mr Kormos, I'll give you another minute. There was a ruling earlier that there are no demonstrations in this chamber.

Mr Kormos: Chair, if I may, I watched on television the ruling regarding wearing insignia of a partisan nature or reflected a particular political position and I was very careful, and am very careful, not to do so. I'll be pleased to accept direction from the Chair, and I say that with all due respect. I'm wearing a pin that reflects my moral position and moral beliefs, which has no partisan quality and does not speak to any matter currently before the House.

The Second Deputy Chair: Could you be a little more specific?

Mr Kormos: The button says, "Question authority." I would seek unanimous consent for permission to wear a button that questions authority. Is that appropriate, sir?

The Second Deputy Chair: Is there unanimous consent for him to continue with that? There is not?

Mr Kormos: So the Chair is compelling me to remove this to comply with the orders?

The Second Deputy Chair: Yes, I am. Would you like to challenge that?

Mr Kormos: No, but I'll challenge authority day after day after day, and I'll question it as well. Thank you kindly, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: Somehow or other I'm not surprised. Are we ready to proceed?

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daleena Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daleena Drive living in the urban area.

"`The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.'"

Mr Ted Chudleigh (Halton North): Dispense.

The Second Deputy Chair: Is there unanimous consent? No.

There is not unanimous consent.

"`If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing'" --

Mr Hampton: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: Is there some reason why you're not reading in the numbers? They are a part of the amendment.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'm sorry. The Chair recognizes the member for Rainy River on a point of order.

Mr Hampton: Yes. Is there some reason why you're not reading in the subsection numbers? They are a part of the amendment.

The Second Deputy Chair: Yes. Would you take your seat, please, and I'll explain. That is not a point of order because it has already been ruled on. I'd like to clear it up for you. That was ruled that they were not part, that they could be changed and they weren't. There were two members of your caucus whom I told that I would read as a courtesy to them. The members were from Dovercourt and London Centre. They made their request and I was particularly understanding or something at the time, so I did that as a courtesy to them. With all respect, sometimes I didn't know if they were really following, and in fact now I understand the member for Fort York is doing that following, so we seem to get along well without them. Is that okay? That's my ruling.

Ms Lankin: On a point of order, Mr Chair: Given that you ruled that was not a point of order, I would simply like to give you my request that you please read the number so that I can follow them.

The Second Deputy Chair: Out of courtesy, I do not mind doing that if you're using them. If you're following them, if they have some benefit to you, by all means I will extend that to you.

I left off at the word "hearing" in the third paragraph -- "has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalegrove Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalegrove Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Eastern Daylight Time begins.

0300

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalehurst Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalehurst Avenue living in the urban area."

Ms Lankin: On a point of order, Mr Chair: Would you please ascertain whether or not there's a quorum.

The Second Deputy Chair: I certainly will. Will the table check if there's a quorum.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): A quorum is not present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is now present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: Thank you. We'll proceed.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given."

Mr Hampton: On a point of order, Chair: A number of the members were not here when you started the reading. They've since joined. They were not here, so I think it would only be fair --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: It's a point of order. Order.

Mr Hampton: I think it's only fair to begin so they understand the full import of this amendment.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order. If that was your wish, you might ask for unanimous consent. But that is not a point of order. Are you challenging the Chair on your point of order?

Mr Hampton: No, Chair, a separate point of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: You're standing up on another point of order?

Mr Hampton: Yes.

The Second Deputy Chair: The Chair recognizes the member for Rainy River on a point of order.

Mr Hampton: My point is this, Chair: When you began to read this amendment there was not a quorum present in the House, and I believe the Clerk recorded that. There now is a quorum --

The Second Deputy Chair: Please take your seat. That is not a point of order. But I might explain it to you that it's not my duty to make sure that there is a quorum. At all times when I'm reading I have to read 249 words in this and 23 numbers. I have to deal with 50 punctuation marks. It's virtually impossible for me to also count the members at the same time as I'm reading to see if one or two go in or out. The way it has always been done, as I understand this House, is that some member if they notice that, they stand up and do it. We check and if it's not right, then I stop. But I don't go back. The real duty here is to read this into the record, not necessarily to make sure that there are at least 129 other people to hear it, that sort of thing.

Mr Phillips: On a point of order, Chair: I notice the clocks say 2:01 here and I do believe the rest of the province is now at 3:01. I'm wondering what your instructions were to the Hansard how this will be recorded.

The Second Deputy Chair: I think that is a point of order and I'm going to do everything I can to correct it, because as I understand it, it's supposed to be 2 o'clock that the clocks are put forward. So I'm going to do mine right now if I can have a moment.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Chairman, it is 2 o'clock on Sunday morning and it's Wednesday in the Legislative Assembly.

The Second Deputy Chair: Just give me minute, I'll deal with the rest of the problems. I want to get my own.

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Would you please give me a moment. Order.

Interjection: A point of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: No. I'm sorry, I'm on a point of order here. There are certain things I have control of as Second Deputy Chair; there are certain things I don't have. I can correct nearly everything that I have the ability to do, and I'll instruct that all of the other clocks be done. I have already done my own. Is there something else that you would like me to do, because I think that is a point of order.

Mr Phillips: No, Mr Chair. I'm not worried about the clock; I'm just worried about your instructions to Hansard about how this will be recorded. I guess my concern is, I don't want the public thinking that we simply adjourned for an hour there. I'd just like to make sure that you've instructed them to properly record that this wasn't a blank hour in the Legislature but it was the clocks moving ahead.

The Second Deputy Chair: Yes, I understand, and I think that it is a proper --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. Would the member for Fort York come to order, please.

Mr Marchese: On a point of order, Mr Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: No, I'm dealing on a point of order and I have another one even before you. I want to finish with this one. I'll do everything I can with it. I see that we have excellent help in this building and they've already corrected that clock. I think they've done the electronic one. Is there anything more I should say into the record to correct it on Hansard? You're completely satisfied now?

Mr Phillips: Thank you.

Mr Chudleigh: On a point of order, Chair: I'd just like to point out that the hour we've just moved ahead did not cost the Ontario taxpayers $10,000 as the other hours have.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order.

Interjection.

The Second Deputy Chair: Please take your seat. I realize that it is important; you wouldn't be up if it wasn't --

Mr Hampton: Actually it's a point of privilege, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: It'll have to wait because I have someone else from your caucus who has already indicated to me that they wanted the floor. The Chair recognizes the member for Fort York on a point of order.

Mr Marchese: Chair, I just wanted to congratulate you for acting so quickly in moving that clock. You did very well.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order and I had almost absolutely nothing to do with it. But thanks anyway.

Mr Hampton: On a point of privilege, Chair: The privilege is this: I would not want members of the public to garner the wrong impression from some of the comments that are sometimes made by government members. The fact of the matter is that this assembly has a budget of about $92 million or $93 million. The fact is -- and this goes to the impression the public creates and it's an impression they would have of all of us -- if we sit all night nothing is added to those costs --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. I want to address my comments to the member for Rainy River. Privilege of course is a very serious thing in this House and we don't either accept it or earn it easily. That is not a point of privilege. That is entering into debate and is out of order.

Hon Mr Snobelen: On a point of privilege, Chair: I want to take this moment, because I've been reflecting on the comments of the members present here, to point out that while there has been some criticism of this particular Chair for speaking faster than the opposition members can think, I want to say that both parties have now congratulated you on temporal matters and I wanted to make that a point of reference.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of privilege. That is entering into debate and that is out of order. We're ready to proceed.

I left off on paragraph 2, after the period after the last word in the sentence "given."

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Interjections.

0310

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:"

Mr Hampton: On a point of order, Mr Chair: I don't believe there's a quorum present.

The Second Deputy Chair: Okay, I don't either, or at least I don't know. Would you like me to check?

Mr Hampton: Please.

The Second Deputy Chair: Would you please check and see if there's a quorum present.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is not present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is now present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: Thank you. I left off after the colon --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. I'm hearing some noises that are interfering with the order of the House. I left off after the colon after "subsection" in the first sentence.

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalemount Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalemount Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalesford Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalesford Road living in the urban area.

"`The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

The member for Beaches-Woodbine, I'll include the numbers now that you're here.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daleside Crescent living in the" --

Ms Lankin: Is it in order to make reference to the presence or absence of a member?

The Second Deputy Chair: Are you addressing the Chair?

Ms Lankin: I appreciate your reading the numbers.

Mr Hampton: Chair, the point was this.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. The Chair recognizes the member for Rainy River on a point of order.

Mr Hampton: The point was this, Mr Chair: I believe it is improper under the rules of the House to make reference to whether or not a particular member is present.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is a point of order, and I think that I was entirely out of line in making that reference. I made it only for information, and I am sorry. I apologize. Is there anything else I can do to make this correct?

Ms Lankin: That is sufficient. Thank you very much. I accept.

The Second Deputy Chair: I would have included them as soon as you came in, except I can't look and see everything.

Ms Lankin: You did. You actually included it as soon as I walked by. I appreciate that.

The Second Deputy Chair: I left off after the word "have," the fourth-last word in the first full paragraph, just prior to paragraph 1.

" -- first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daleside Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalewood Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalewood Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalhousie Lake living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalhousie Lake living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of the committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This item is deferred.

The Chair recognizes the member for High Park-Swansea on a point of order.

Mr Derwyn Shea (High Park-Swansea): Chair, I only saw four members of the opposition stand in response to that. Did you see more?

The Second Deputy Chair: That is a point of order, and yes, there was one member who was tardy. It is not my wish to put anything over on him. He made it in time and I recognized that, and there were five standing to take that.

Mr Shea: Being very clear then, you are saying at least you are being reasonable with what might be interpreted as tardiness.

The Second Deputy Chair: I try.

Mr Shea: May I just repeat that one more time? You are being charitable and reasonable with what might be interpreted as tardiness.

Mr Marchese: Would you repeat that again? I want to hear it.

The Second Deputy Chair: That's all, yes.

Mr Shea: Thank you, Chair.

0320

The Second Deputy Chair: This is an NDP motion.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalhousie Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalhousie Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4" --

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): Point of order, Mr Chair: I understand that in the motion we're on now the amendment is for Dalhousie Street. I think the one before was also for Dalhousie Street and I wondered if we're --

The Second Deputy Chair: I thought the same thing. That is a point of order because I want to enunciate, pronunciate and make it clear to everybody what I'm saying, but I checked. The one before was Dalhousie Lake. This one is Dalhousie Street.

Mr Maves: -- in favour of the amendment that said "Dalhousie Lake"?

Mr Marchese: It wasn't moved.

The Second Deputy Chair: The first time you were up, that was a point of order. This is not question period, so --

Mrs McLeod: Good point, Mr Chairman.

The Second Deputy Chair: I left off in paragraph 5, subparagraph iii, at the end of the numeral 4, and then I'm going to the Roman numeral iv.

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Order, please. Order, order.

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dallas Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dallas Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dallington Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dallington Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

The Chair recognizes the member for Fort York on a point of order.

Mr Marchese: I would like to withdraw the motion that we're about to deal with, the one that reads "the residents of Dallner." It is an incomplete designation of the street and it's for that reason we're withdrawing that.

The Second Deputy Chair: Thank you. It's done.

This is an NDP motion:

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dallner Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of" --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. There's no talking allowed. This is not debate. There's no exchange of words or anything. I am reading these into the record. I'm doing the very best I can. It's a very tedious, long, hard job and I'm just doing the best I can. So I would ask for order.

I left off after the word "of." The member for Kitchener, are you rising on a point of order or a point of privilege?

Mr Wettlaufer: On a point of order, Chair: I just want you to know that the government members do appreciate the amount of work that you are putting in here and how tedious it is, and we applaud you.

Applause.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order. I left off after the word "of," near the end of the sentence in paragraph 1.

"` -- of Dallner Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of the committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dallyn Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dallyn Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

0330

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalmation Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalmation Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

I just want to tell you why I'm watching the clock. I'm not usually a clock watcher, but that clock went awfully fast, if you remember, between 1:10 and 3:10, and my shift is 1:10 to 3:10, so my shift was over 20 minutes ago. The air is dry in here and my throat is getting a little sore, but I thought that rather than wait for the other person we'd just go on. Is that okay?

Mr Marchese: It's perfectly okay.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'll go on as long as I can, but I run out of steam every once in a while.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection" --

Mr Ron Johnson (Brantford): Dispense.

The Second Deputy Chair: Is there unanimous consent to dispense? No. There's not unanimous consent. I think it's unparliamentary for a person to ask to dispense while not being in their proper place. I'll check if you want me to.

I'm advised that it's the same as a voice vote, that it's not a violation, but I'm frowning on it. I'd just like to warn the member that we're trying to conduct things here as well as we can in a very parliamentary manner. I'm doing the best I can and I ask that everybody do the same, as long as we're trying to do the same thing.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalrymple Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalrymple Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalston Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalston Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

The First Deputy Chair (Ms Marilyn Churley): Good morning.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4).

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense?

Ms Lankin: Point of order, Madam Chair: Each Chair will have to rule on this, but the previous Chair who just vacated the chair ruled on the practice of members who were not in their seats calling "dispense," and I just point out to you that this is what happened. You may rule differently, but that is the ruling we just got.

The First Deputy Chair: Did he rule that it was in order?

Ms Lankin: He's sitting there beside you.

The First Deputy Chair: Good point. Generally when people are addressing the Chair and they're on their feet, under the rules they must be in their seats. We discussed this last night. However, on the voice vote, and I would consider this the same, I am not disturbed by it. So there you go -- inconsistency.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dalton Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dalton Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Vote deferred.

0340

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Damascus Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Damascus Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material'" --

Ms Lankin: Point of order, Madam Chair: Would you please ascertain if there is a quorm?

The First Deputy Chair: Clerk, is there a quorum?

Clerk at the Table (Ms Lisa Freedman): A quorum is not present, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: Chair, a quorum is now present.

The First Deputy Chair: Thank you.

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Damask Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Damask Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." All those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

Ms Lankin: Madam Chair, on a point of order: We've had a number of discussions in the chambers with respect to points of order on vagueness. As you know, it's been raised by the member for Scarborough East on a number of occasions with respect to amendments. I just want to point out the dictionary definition of the word "dispense." It could be either to "distribute; deal out...or administer" or it could to be to "grant a dispensation...from an obligation..."or "give exemption from (a rule)." I just say to the member that he is being very vague in his language.

The First Deputy Chair: A number of government members have already helped tell me that that is not a point of order, but thank you for your definition anyway.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dana Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dana Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danby Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danby Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

0350

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dancy Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dancy Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dane Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dane Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the amendment carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mr Ron Johnson: Tony Martin just spent another thousand bucks.

Ms Lankin: She's going to put you in the back row if you're not quiet.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please. To the member for Brantford, I just confirmed -- that's the first stage -- that you are indeed the member for Brantford on my sheet here. First step.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danesbury Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied -- '"

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: It's too loud in here. People have got to stop yelling. If you want to talk to each other --

Mr Guzzo: Want to keep interrupting? You're succeeding.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Ottawa-Rideau, come to order, please.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please. If people want to talk to each other, obviously people can get together and talk quietly. I will not tolerate any more of this yelling consistently across the floor. Now, member for Oakwood, point of order.

Mr Colle: I guess the point of order is, we were just wondering whether there's ever been a worse bill brought before this Legislature.

The First Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order.

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: The member for Brantford, come to order, please.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: I can tell it's the 3 o'clock shift --

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): The member from Brantford is provoking us.

Mr Ron Johnson: Provoking you? Quit spending money.

The First Deputy Chair: Okay, come to order.

Okay, I think that was in the middle of a sentence. Are we ready to go?

Interjection: Ready.

The First Deputy Chair: Okay, you'll be good. I'll believe that when I see it.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: "`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danesbury Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danesbury Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.'"

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: The member for Sault Ste Marie, come to order.

Ms Lankin: On a point of order, Madam Chair: Would you please ascertain whether or not there's a quorum.

The First Deputy Chair: Is there a quorum, Clerk?

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is not present, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is now present.

The First Deputy Chair: "`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.'"

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Brantford.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Sault Ste Marie, are you up on a point of order?

Interjection.

0400

The First Deputy Chair: Okay, sit down. I'm going to ask you to return to your seat. That is my request to you. Would you return to your seat? Actually, I'll give you one more chance and then I'm going to ask you to move or you can move to a seat further away. Member for Brantford, you have a choice of staying there and being quiet, going to your own seat or moving to a seat somewhere else. Those are your options.

NDP motion:

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: Defence? Okay, now you have to take one of your options.

Subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daneswood Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daneswood Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Okay, NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danforth Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danforth Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: The member for Beaches-Woodbine, you should come to order, too.

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: Yes, I realize you're trying to help me out, but that's okay.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danforth Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danforth Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

-- subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daniels Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daniels Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the amendment carry? All those in favour of the motion say "aye." Those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

-- subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danilack Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danilack Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

0410

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please. Member for Cochrane North and member for Brantford, come to order.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Oakwood, come to order.

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: I haven't started yet.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

-- subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danish Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danish Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4) --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danjohn Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danjohn Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1."

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Beaches-Woodbine, are you provoking the member for Brantford again?

Mr Ron Johnson: Yes, absolutely. It's terrible. I can't stand it. I'm going to leave.

The First Deputy Chair: "`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mr Colle: On a point of order, Madam Chair: I know the member for Brantford keeps on talking about the cost of democracy, but I notice he's quoted in his own Expositor, talking about "`Let's vote on the casino,' says MPP." He says, "I think it's an important enough issue that perhaps a referendum is necessary."

The First Deputy Chair: I don't think this is a point of order, member for Oakwood.

Mr Colle: He said the public should be --

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Oakwood, you don't have a point of order. It may be important information, but it is out of order.

Ms Lankin: On a point of order, Madam Chair: I need a ruling from you. The government actually doesn't have a quorum of awake members right now. Does that count?

The First Deputy Chair: Thank you. It is not my job to ascertain whether members of the Legislature are awake, asleep or alive or dead. I have to make sure that there are 20 bodies in this House and that is my job. So you are not calling quorum. You perhaps should not provoke me any more. I'm coming very close to being out of order myself, I believe.

Hon Mr Snobelen: On a point of order, Chair: If I could speak to that point of order --

The First Deputy Chair: I ruled it out of order.

Hon Mr Snobelen: I think the test is if you can fog a mirror, you're still alive.

The First Deputy Chair: Let's get dignified here again. After all, we do have members of the public sitting in the gallery watching, and I'm sure there are hundreds of people watching on TV. We must maintain the dignity of the chamber, so let's get back to our important amendments here.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

-- subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danmary Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danmary Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the amendment carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Brantford, come to order. Member for Oakwood, come to order.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4).

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danrose Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danrose Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

0420

NDP motion, subsection 24(4).

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection" --

Mr Ron Johnson: Mike Colle just spent a thousand bucks.

Mr Colle: How much will the referendum cost?

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Oakwood, come to order. Member for Brantford, come to order.

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): Three strikes and you're out, Ron.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Cochrane North, come to order. I thank you all very much for trying to help me do my job, but it actually causes more problems.

Mr Phillips: Yes, it does.

The First Deputy Chair: Thank you for helping me, member for Scarborough-Agincourt.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dansk Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dansk Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

I have trouble, member for Oakwood, when somebody is standing --

Mr Colle: My fault. I'm leaving.

The First Deputy Chair: Okay. NDP motion, subsection 24(4).

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dante Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dante Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4).

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danube Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danube Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mr Ron Johnson: Pay Hoy just spent a thousand bucks.

Mr Pat Hoy (Essex-Kent): On a point of order, Madam Chair: I believe it's correct in this House to refer to members by their riding and not by their name.

The First Deputy Chair: Absolutely.

Mr Hoy: The member opposite has not been doing that.

The First Deputy Chair: That is a point of order. It gives me an opportunity to remind all members, and you already know this, that you should refer to each other by your riding.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

Subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danville Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danville Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Interjections.

Mr Ron Johnson: A thousand bucks.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Brantford, come to order. Everybody come to order.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

Subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Danzig Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Danzig Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

0430

Mr Ron Johnson: Essex-Kent, a thousand bucks. Keep spending it.

The First Deputy Chair: This is very repetitious.

Mr Ron Johnson: You got that right.

The First Deputy Chair: Well, this is within the rules, and you are out of your seat. I'm not talking about "Dispense"; I'm talking about, after every vote, you yell across the floor each and every time. I'm going to ask you to contain yourself. Thank you.

NDP motion --

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

Subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daphne Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daphne Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Mr Ron Johnson: Essex-Kent, a thousand bucks.

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Brantford, I am now going to ask you to please return to your own seat. Thank you.

Mr Phillips: On a point of order, Madam Chair: We are all trying to deal with these amendments. Mr Ron Johnson of Brantford is out of control, and I have no idea why, but I would really urge you to try and get him in some semblance of control. I don't think the people of Brantford appreciate his misbehaviour here.

Mr Ron Johnson: Point of order on the same point, Madam Chair: What I am saying, you'll notice, after each individual amendment is I'm indicating that $1000 is being spent by the Liberal member and by his colleagues in the New Democratic Party.

The First Deputy Chair: As I have said previously, all members -- or I should say almost all, if not all, members -- in this House indulge in heckling, sometimes very loud. I am fairly tolerant. I am not at all talking about the context; heckling is out of order, period. The context, in my view, from my position in my job, is not the issue unless you insult somebody. But, member for Brantford, when you are as repetitive as you are after each and every vote, it cannot be tolerated.

I would ask you to please contain yourselves and let's get back to the amendments at hand.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darby Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darby Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Mr Ron Johnson: On a point of order, Madam Chair: The member for Essex-Kent just spent $1,000.

The First Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order.

Mr Phillips: Madam Chair, I must --

The First Deputy Chair: Please take your seat. Member for Scarborough-Agincourt, if it's okay with you, I'm going to read to the member instead of coming to your point of order. You did have the floor, if you want to.

Mr Phillips: Just that I'm interested in the decorum in the House. For whatever reason, the member for Brantford is out of control and I just think it's important that you get him in control.

The First Deputy Chair: I have the standing order here and I'm going to read it specifically in relation to the member for Brantford. This will apply to anybody in the House when things get out of control. I'm going to read some of the sections to you. This is standing order 15(a):

"If a member on being called to order for an offence against any standing order persists in the offence, the Speaker may direct the member to discontinue his or her speech, and if such member refuses to resume his or her seat, the Speaker shall name the member to the House."

The next thing I am going to read to you is (b):

"When a member is named by the Speaker, if the offence is a minor one, the Speaker may order the member to withdraw for the balance of the sessional day; but if the matter appears to the Speaker to be of a more serious nature, the Speaker shall put the question on motion being made, no amendment, adjournment or debate being allowed, `that such member be suspended from the service of the House', such suspension being for any time stated in the motion not exceeding 14 calendar days."

Now (c), and very importantly:

"When a member has been named by the Chair when the House is meeting in committee, the Chair shall forthwith suspend the proceedings of the committee and report the circumstances to the House and the Speaker shall then proceed as in clause (b), as if the offence had been committed in the House itself."

I've read this because, member for Brantford, as I said earlier, I think I and the other two Chairs have been very tolerant around heckling. I will continue to be so. Although it's out of order, it is the standard practice of this House. However, member for Brantford, you have crossed the line. I'm not going to name you at this point but I want you to be aware that this is something I really do not wish to do but at a certain point I will have no alternative.

Mr Ron Johnson: On a point of personal privilege, Madam Chair: Is in fact asking for a dispense inappropriate?

The First Deputy Chair: No, that is well within the rule. Thank you.

0440

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darien Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darien Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4) --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darlingbrook Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darlingbrook Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darlingside Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darlingside Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darlington Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darlington Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darnborough Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darnborough Way living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darrell Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darrell Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Vote will be deferred.

0450

NDP motion:

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dartford Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dartford Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Vote will be deferred.

NDP motion:

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dartmoor Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dartmoor Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion:

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dartmouth Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dartmouth Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dartnell Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dartnell Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): Did you say Dartmoor Avenue?

The First Deputy Chair: No, I don't believe I did. It's Dartnell Avenue.

Mrs Boyd: Dartnell. Thank you very much.

The First Deputy Chair: "`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall'" --

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On a point of order, Madam Chair: I don't believe there's a quorum present.

The First Deputy Chair: Clerk, will you check and see if there is a quorum, please.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is not present, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is now present, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair: "Under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Darwin Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Darwin Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

0500

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dashwood Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dashwood Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Datchet Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Datchet Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dault Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dault Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Madam Chair: This next amendment has no street designation so I will withdraw it.

The First Deputy Chair: It will be withdrawn.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Mr Wettlaufer: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davand Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davand Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davean Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davean Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

0510

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Madam Chair: It's 10 after 5 in the morning and it is already very warm in this chamber. I understand that the temperature is supposed to reach about 19 degrees today. It's supposed to be a very warm day.

Mr Tilson: Is it going to rain?

Mrs Boyd: I don't know about that, but I wonder if we could do anything about getting air conditioning working in this building under these circumstances.

The First Deputy Chair: Thank you for that point of order. I will ask. I'm sure that it will be looked into.

Mr Wettlaufer: Anybody who knows anything about the heating system of old buildings like this should know that it takes a great deal of energy and a great deal of cost to turn the heat up and down, especially in the spring and the fall of the year. With the cold spell that is coming on in the next couple of days, I would say that it would be a waste of time and waste of money to do this, to turn the air conditioning on, and I think the people should grin and bear it.

Mr Len Wood: You're out of shape.

Mr Wettlaufer: Unfortunately, the member for Cochrane North doesn't understand the simple heat.

The First Deputy Chair: Thank you for that point of order. It is my understanding from talking to the Clerk that although the member for London Centre used the term "air conditioner," what they are doing in fact is opening and closing windows: the air conditioner. So as to your concerns about that, you can rest assured that is not what's happening.

By the way, it wasn't a point of order, but I'm glad that it was pointed out becasue it was getting very warm.

See you in a few hours, have fun.

The Acting Chair (Mr Michael Brown): I have an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davelayne Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davelayne Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? All in favour say "aye." All opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Chair: The next amendment has just Davenport with no street designation. I withdraw that motion.

The Acting Chair: That will be withdrawn.

NDP motion:

Mr Ron Johnson: Dispense.

The Acting Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davenport Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davenport Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour will say "aye." All opposed will say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Mr Phillips: Point of order, Mr Chair: You just joined the Chair. For whatever reason Mr Ron Johnson, the member for Brantford, has been out of control for the night. The previous Chair warned that she would name him and expel him from the House. Now he's running around the House. The public can't see him now that he's moved to another chair. I just urge you to get him under control.

I think the public expects some decorum in the House. We're dealing with a serious matter, and the previous Chair deliberately and carefully warned the member to get himself under control. I would just urge you to act quickly to save the embarrassment to the House. I suspect he'll get up slightly out of control again.

The Acting Chair: As members know, all members must act in accordance with the standing orders.

Mr Ron Johnson: On the same point of order, Mr Chair: I'm merely indicating to the public and to the House that the Liberal Party is spending $1,000 per amendment.

The Acting Chair: That's not a point of order.

Mr Phillips: Point of order, Mr Chair: The member for Brantford makes my point. He has no facts, he's in error and he is embarrassing himself and the House.

The Acting Chair: That's not a point of order either. Thank you.

Mr Parker: Point of order, Mr Chair: We've been at this charade for four days now and the Liberal Party has failed to make a contribution of any substance whatsoever in connection with this bill or this procedure.

The Acting Chair: That is not a point of order.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daventry Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daventry Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

0520

Hon Mr Snobelen: On a point of privilege, Mr Chair: If I could, a little while ago I rose in the committee and suggested that the Chair at the time had been accused by members of both opposition parties of speaking faster than they could think. It's been pointed out to me that that might have been an inference that somehow the thinking would be too slow by the opposition and that's not, of course, what I wanted to infer. I wanted to infer that the Chair was speaking faster than they could listen.

Some of my colleagues have pointed out that that whole statement presupposes that there is thought actually happening and that that might be inaccurate at any point in this chamber. So I'd like to make that very clear on the record today.

The Acting Chair: Thank you. That's not a point of privilege.

An NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Mrs Boyd: Just one smart-ass remark after another.

Hon William Saunderson (Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism): On a point of order, Mr Chair: The lady, the member for London, might want to withdraw her last remark about a "smart" something. It's not becoming to what's going on in the chamber.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of privilege, Mr Chair: I am a member; I am not whatever my gender -- a lady in this chamber, and it is not appropriate for the minister to be responding and naming people by a gender-related term. We are all equal in this chamber, if nowhere else. I would ask him to withdraw that. I am happy to withdraw my remark.

Hon Mr Saunderson: If my remark offends you I will withdraw it.

The Acting Chair: Thank you.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection -- "

Mr Wettlaufer: On a point of order, Mr Chair: I just want to add to what the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism said. I'm sure he meant nothing when he referred to the member for London as a lady.

The Acting Chair: The member has withdrawn it.

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davick Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davick Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of David Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of David Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All in favour, say "aye." Those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davidson Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davidson Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davies Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davies Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

0530

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davies Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davies Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davis Downs Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davis Downs Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davis Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davis Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Mr Parker: Point of order, Mr Chair: You were dealing with Davis Drive in the urban area. There is no Davis Drive in the urban area. The only Davis Drive in Ontario is in Newmarket. What does that have to do with Bill 103? I'm wondering why the NDP didn't withdraw this amendment as it's so clearly out of order.

The Acting Chair: The amendment is in order.

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour will say "aye." All those opposed will say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davisbrook Boulevard living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davisbrook Boulevard living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the pleasure of the committee that the motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Mr Wettlaufer: On a point of order, Mr Chair: The member for York East brought up on a point of order a street that is not in Toronto. I would like to know if we have certified that all the streets that have been mentioned in these amendments are actually located in Toronto. If they are not, then what was to prevent the third party from presenting in their amendments streets in the city Kitchener and naming them as Toronto? I think it's very important because it is frivolous if these streets are not located in the city of Toronto.

The Acting Chair: The Chair has ruled on this point of order on a number of occasions that it is in order.

Mr Wettlaufer: Mr Chair, not all the streets are in Toronto. Some of them are in Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough --

The Acting Chair: Thank you for your assistance.

I have an NDP motion --

Mr Wettlaufer: Point of order, Mr Chair: I'd like clarification, and if I can't have the clarification from you, I would like to appeal.

The Acting Chair: Are you challenging the Chair? The member for Kitchener, could you help me. Are you challenging the ruling?

Mr Wettlaufer: Yes, I am challenging the ruling.

The committee rose and requested a ruling of the Speaker.

1606

The Acting Chair: Mr Speaker, the ruling of the Chair has been appealed by the member for Kitchener.

The Speaker: Thank you. The member for Kitchener.

Mr Wettlaufer: Mr Speaker, earlier this evening in one of your rulings you referred to common knowledge as being justification for ruling in the manner you did. I'm aware that you also ruled earlier on this legislative day about another street, but that was another amendment. This is a different amendment.

It's common knowledge that Davis Drive is located in Newmarket and is not located within the boundaries of Metropolitan Toronto, the boundaries which were used in Bill 103. This, to me, indicates that there are other streets which have been used in amendments which would indicate that we have frivolous action, perhaps vexatious action, on the part of the third party in its amendments. Without proof that these streets referred to in these amendments are located within the boundaries of Metropolitan Toronto, they could have also taken streets from Kitchener, Waterloo, Ottawa or any other city in this province and included them in these amendments. Mr Speaker, I submit to you that this amendment is out of order.

Mr Wildman: I won't prolong this, and I apologize for your being brought in here at this hour. You ruled earlier. With regard to the possibility of us having brought forward in a vexatious manner streets from other communities to be included among these amendments, I would just indicate to you that we are all honourable members in this House.

The Speaker: I've ruled on this before. Your amendment is still in order.

House in committee of the whole.

Mr Wettlaufer: On a point of order, Mr Chair: The Speaker has indicated that he has ruled on this before. I would suggest that every amendment and every vote is different. If the Speaker is using this ruling to apply to every amendment --

Interjection: Are you challenging the Speaker?

Mr Wettlaufer: No, I'm saying that if the ruling --

The Chair (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Order, please.

Mr Wettlaufer: I'm not challenging --

The Chair: No, no. Just take your seat, just for one second. Are you debating the Speaker's ruling?

Mr Wettlaufer: I'm requesting something.

The Chair: No, no. If you are debating the Speaker's ruling, it's a no, no.

Mr Wettlaufer: I'm requesting something from the Speaker's ruling.

The Chair: I'll listen to you again.

Mr Wettlaufer: If the Speaker has ruled that his ruling applies to all amendments, then I request that we have one vote to apply to all amendments.

The Chair: It was quite obvious that the Speaker made a ruling previously and made a ruling on this last amendment and that was it. I will continue on, and if you find again that there is something that you reject, then you can always appeal my ruling to the Speaker.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davistow Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davistow Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The next amendment just says "Davisville." It has no street designation and Davisville Avenue follows on, so I'm withdrawing Davisville without a street designation.

The Chair: It is withdrawn.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davisville Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I don't think we have a quorum.

The Chair: Would you please verify if we have a quorum.

Clerk Assistant (Ms Deborah Deller): A quorum is not present, Chair.

The Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant: A quorum is now present, Chair.

The Chair: "I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Davisville Avenue'" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

-- "`living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Davisville Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Chair: The next item has no street designation; it just says Dawes. The following one is Dawes Road, so we're withdrawing this one.

Interjections.

The Chair: Thank you. The member for Ottawa-Rideau, order. The member for Durham East, order. The member for Algoma and the member for Ottawa-Rideau.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dawes Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dawes Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

0620

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill'" --

Interjections.

The Chair: Order. This is a typical point, that if you just -- I can't hear. If you can't hear me and I ask for a decision and you talk louder than I do, don't blame anybody else than yourselves. That's why I'm asking you to be quiet.

Interjection.

The Chair: The member for Durham East, please, you like decorum. Apply it.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dawlish Avenue'" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

-- "`living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dawlish Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dawlish Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dawlish Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24'" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? Dispense.

Shall the amendment carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dawson Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dawson Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Day Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Day Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daybar Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daybar Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended'" -- if somebody has said "Dispense," I haven't heard. That's why I'm asking you that if everybody talks and if you say "Dispense" and I don't hear you, don't blame me; blame yourselves.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daysland Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daysland Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

0630

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Daystrom Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Daystrom Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dayton Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dayton Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Chair: The next two do not have street designations, De Haviland and De Quincy, and I'm withdrawing them.

The Chair: Withdrawn.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of De Quincy Boulevard living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of De Quincy Boulevard living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act'" --

Interjections.

The Chair: The noise is disturbing me.

Mr John Hastings (Etobicoke-Rexdale): That's too bad.

The Chair: If you don't stop, I'll ask you to leave the House. I'll name you, simple as that. If you want to challenge me, that's fine with me.

Mr Wildman: Show some respect for the Chair.

The Chair: I'll just warn you -- "`together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of De Savery Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of De Savery Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of De Vere Gardens living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of De Vere Gardens living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deaconwood Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deaconwood Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

0640

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deakin Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deakin Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deal Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deal Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Chair: The next one does not have a street designation. It's Dean Park. We'll be doing Dean Park Road, which is the one after, so that one's withdrawn.

The Chair: Withdrawn.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dean Park Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dean Park Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deane Field Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deane Field Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the amendment carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it.

Mr Gilchrist: Mr Chair.

The Chair: Just a minute. It's not over yet. The vote is deferred.

You have a point of order:

Mr Gilchrist: I'd just like to draw to your attention, Mr Chair, we have now passed 85 hours or $850,000 of the mega-waste.

The Chair: You're out of order -- completely, completely out of order.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanecourt Road --

Interjections.

The Chair: Order, order. I'll just repeat what I said a minute ago, that if you talk -- take your seat, please. If you talk louder than me, I won't be able to hear you if you say "dispense" or if you ask for a point of order. So I ask for your cooperation. It's you who decides; it's not me.

Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): They don't listen to anybody.

The Chair: And that applies to you too. Do you have a point of order?

Mr Sergio: No, I don't have a point of order.

The Chair: Thank you.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended --

Mr Parker: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanecourt Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanecourt Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

0650

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanecrest Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanecrest Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanewood Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanewood Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanfield Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanfield Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanlea Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanlea Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanscroft Square living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanscroft Square living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

0700

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the'" --

Interjections.

The Chair: Member for Scarborough East, order, order. I'd just like to remind you of what I said a minute ago, that if you speak louder than me and then if you ask for a point of order and I don't hear you or if you say "dispense" I don't hear you, blame it on yourselves, not on me. I hope that is clear. I'll give you all the cooperation that you want. I would expect the same thing from you, and to keep a bit of dignity in the House too. I think we're all in favour of that.

"I move that section 24 of the bill" --

Mr Parker: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

-- "be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanvar Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanvar Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deanecrest Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deanecrest Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dearbourne Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dearbourne Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended" --

Interjection: Dispense.

Interjection: No.

The Chair: Here's a typical example: Somebody said "dispense" and I didn't hear it. Why is that? It's because there's too much noise. Somebody said "dispense" and I didn't hear it, so if you say it and I don't hear it, don't blame me; blame yourselves.

NDP motion --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dearham Wood living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dearham Wood living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deauville Lane living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deauville Lane living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given."

I'll just repeat again for the sake of the members for Durham East and Nepean, I told your colleagues -- all my colleagues here -- that if you speak too loud and if somebody raises a point of order or somebody says "dispense," I won't be able to hear. After that, if you blame the Chair it won't be fair; you should blame yourselves. So I'm asking for your cooperation to keep it quiet so that you can hear what I'm reading and if you have a point of order, I'll hear it.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given'"--

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? Dispense.

All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Chair: The next one is a strange one because I think it's a duplicate of the last one. It's Deauville Ln, and I think it's a duplicate so I'm withdrawing it.

The Chair: That's withdrawn.

0710

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): On a point of order, Chair: Given the member for London Centre has described the last amendment that she withdrew as "strange," I would give unanimous consent for her to withdraw all of the amendments as being strange. The other thing that I would point out: Sandra Pupatello said, "I don't think any of us are here to say a majority government should withdraw a bill" --

The Acting Chair (Doug Galt): That's not a point of order. You're out of order. Please be seated.

I have an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Debby Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Debby Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote shall be deferred.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Debell Lane living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Debell Lane living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deblyn Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deblyn Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall this motion carry? Those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion will be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deborah Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deborah Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall this motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Decaire Circle living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Decaire Circle living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall this motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote shall be deferred.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Decarie Circle" -- this is the same one. Decarie Circle?

Mrs Boyd: They appear to be different streets. They're spelled differently.

The Acting Chair: You're right -- "living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Decarie Circle living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given."

Interjection: Dispense.

The Acting Chair: Should it be dispensed? No.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of the committee that this be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

0720

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Decimal Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Decimal Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dee Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dee Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote shall be deferred.

Another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dee Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dee Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deekshill Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deekshill Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is this committee in favour of this motion being carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deep Dene Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deep Dene Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deepdale Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deepdale Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deepglade Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deepglade Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deepwood Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deepwood Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

0730

Mrs Boyd: Mr Chair, on a point of order: There is no street designation on this amendment, so we're withdrawing it.

The Acting Chair: Mine says "Deer Bay."

Mrs Boyd: Deep Bay, yes.

The Acting Chair: Deer Bay.

Mrs Boyd: Sorry, I beg your pardon. There is no street designation.

The Acting Chair: No Deer Bay in Toronto.

Mrs Boyd: No, there's no street designation here, so we're withdrawing it.

The Acting Chair: Thank you very much.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deer Bay Reach Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deer Bay Reach Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deer Park Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deer Park Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote shall be deferred.

Another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerbrook Trail living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerbrook Trail living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. There shall be a deferral of the vote on this motion.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Chair: The next one is a duplicate of the one we've just passed: Deerbrook Trail. We're withdrawing that.

The Acting Chair: I have an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerfield Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerfield Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

An NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerfield Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerfield Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerfoot Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerfoot Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerford Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerford Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

0740

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerhide Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerhide Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. There shall be a deferred vote on this motion.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerhurst Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerhurst Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deering Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deering Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is everyone in favour that the motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deerpath Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deerpath Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deeside Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deeside Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deeth Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deeth Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deevale Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deevale Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Deforest Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Deforest Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

0750

An NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Defries Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Defries Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Should this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Degrassi Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Degrassi Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Degrey Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Degrey Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dehaviland Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dehaviland Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Dehrassi Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Dehrassi Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

I have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Del Ria Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Del Ria Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have an NDP motion here:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Delabra Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Delabra Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote on this motion shall be deferred.

We have another NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Delahaye Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Delahaye Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion shall be carried? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. There shall be a deferred vote on this motion.

Report continues in volume M.