DS003 - Wed 6 Nov 2013 / Mer 6 nov 2013



Wednesday 6 November 2013 Mercredi 6 novembre 2013


The committee met at 1604 in committee room 1.


The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Good afternoon. I call to order the Select Committee on Developmental Services. As most members know, we will not be able to hear from any ministries today, although we have made every effort in our power to get a ministry here before us. We do have ministries confirmed for next Wednesday, but we were not able to—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): As well as the groups.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): —as well as the groups that we had asked for. So Wednesday is looking good, but for today, we do not have any ministries before us.

We had decided to still have a meeting and go forward with some organizational issues.

I would also like to point out that we did send a request to the three House leaders in regard to our travel, so that has been submitted. You should have before you the written submission. We have received our first written submission. We have a draft budget that the Clerk has prepared and we can go over it during today’s meeting. We can start if everyone is in agreement.

Yes, Ms. Wong.

Ms. Soo Wong: I just want to get a clarification on next week. Is it a whole day meeting for the select committee?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, it is.

Ms. Soo Wong: I just wanted to make sure because it’s a constit week, so for the members travelling from afar, we can properly plan. So it’s all day, starting at 9? Am I correct, then?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, my understanding is it’s from 9 to 12 and then from 1 to 4.

Interjection: Five.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Excuse me. Correct, 1 to 5.

Ms. Soo Wong: Okay. That’s all I wanted, a clarification. Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, Ms. Jones.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Since we’re all going to be here, and we’re not going anywhere, is there any reason why we can’t do stuff through lunch and—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I can’t. It’s in the order.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): The motion is specific as to when we can sit. I guess the question is—usually when I sit—


The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes. Usually when committees sit all day, lunch is provided. Am I correct? That’s the best we can do. Informal chats are always a possibility.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: So you cannot prevent me from talking about developmental disabilities during lunch?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): No, we cannot. We can still talk about that.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Are we—yes?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: I just have one question, Chair. Could you please just remind us of who’s going to be presenting? I remember the organizations, but which ministries will be presenting next week?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, we do have a list here.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): So far, we have confirmed education, and we’re waiting on health, I think. Community safety and corrections has confirmed; municipal affairs and housing; training, colleges and universities. We are waiting to hear back from, if I’m not mistaken, aboriginal affairs, and then the three groups that we had: CUPE, OPSEU and Community Living Ontario. It will come down to who we get in touch with first. There will be a couple of ministries that won’t be able to fit in and that’ll have to be the week—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): The following week.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): —if that’s what the committee decides.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, Ms. Jones?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Which were the two ministries that were supposed to appear today and did not?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We had asked, after last meeting, health and long-term care and community safety and correctional services to appear. Health and long-term care informed us on Monday that they would most likely be before estimates today and, for that reason, they couldn’t.

From that, we moved to their spot municipal affairs and housing on Monday, who said they just felt it was too little time to be able to appear.

Community safety and correction services got back to us yesterday and said that they would not be able to appear today.

We did send out an email to the remaining ministries that we hadn’t contacted yet. Two out of the three got back to us saying that they were unable to, and one we have not heard from yet.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Should we proceed to speak about the budget?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Just one other question, Madam Chair.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: We had asked for some extra information from the ministries that did appear. I’m just wondering, is there an indication when that’s forthcoming?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We haven’t heard anything as of yet, but we’d be happy to follow up on anything.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Could you please? The sooner, the better. Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): That’s a good point.

I guess everybody has received a copy of the draft budget?

Miss Monique Taylor: Sorry, Chair. I’m not sure I see one, and I apologize for being late.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): We will give you an extra copy.

I think I would welcome the Clerk speaking to this a little bit, since he’s the one that prepared it and would have some background.


The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Basically, what we’re looking at is an eight-month period that the committee will be working over. Some of the items, like telecommunications, mail and courier service, are just an estimation of what we’ll spend in a month over the eight-month period.

Some of the other items are a little more specific. To date, the advertising plan that the committee has put together is in the $34,000 range. We’ve buffered in another $6,000 for any future advertising that might take place over that time period. Some of our ads have not gone out yet only because some of them are contingent, location-wise, on whether we get that time to travel through the House leaders. So we’re holding those back as far as the Ontario-wide.

What we can say is that the Toronto ads, both French and English, will be out next week in the Star, in the Saturday paper, and in L’Express, the French paper. Our Internet Legislative Assembly channel and Ont.Parl are already up and running and we have had responses to that so far.

Based on the committee’s indication of five locations, we were able to look at things like space rental away from Queen’s Park. It’s an approximation. I hope it not to be that much, but the idea is we’ve put aside about $2,000 per location based on the five. Some of the northern spots are going to cost a little more to get there but it might be a lot less once we’re there type of thing.

Equipment rental away from Queen’s Park—when we can and in certain instances where we aren’t able to get an outside group, there’s a group called ISTS which we rent a lot of our broadcast stuff from in certain locations. Again, the northern locations, we’re going to have to take in our own. You’ll see that later, there’s a charter charge down below as part of that. So that’s the rental away from Queen’s Park.

Office supplies, photocopy, translation and printing should be good for the interim and the final report. It’s an estimation as to sort of what we normally pay in procedural services for those two services.

When it comes to travel, we’ve looked at a travel plan to take in the five locations that the committee has looked at. Again, this is an estimation as to what that will cost. We have added on a second plane for certain locations where we will have to fly in our own equipment. We’re looking at approximately, throughout this nine-member committee—sorry, seven-member staff—it takes in 16 members to travel throughout the province when we do this.

Based on that, five nights for 16 people, it’s about 80 people-nights that we look at in terms of accommodation and meal estimations there. That’s where the final totals come from.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Any discussion? Any comments? Ms. Elliott?

Ms. Laurie Scott: It certainly looks in line based on what the previous Select Committee on Mental Health and Addictions did. I think we came in at about $170,000 or something like that. So this certainly looks in line, as long as we can move items within the budget lines. If we come in more or less over or under on certain things, if we can do that, that would be good.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We’d be looking to—in this, just asking the board for the bottom line in terms of additional funding too. There is also money within the committees branch or procedural services branch global budget for certain items should we go over. That’s all open to moving it around. That’s not a problem.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Okay. My only other question just relates to telecommunications, in the $800 that’s budgeted for that. Would that include people who want to participate by teleconference?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Yes. One portion of that is things like when we go out to a location, sometimes there’s additional set-up. Locations might need another line through Bell or something like that, when we get to a location, in order to make that happen. That’s what we’re talking about. Teleconferencing in is definitely what the committee can do and this allows for any additional equipment that we might need.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Very good. Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Any further comments? Yes, Ms. Wong?

Ms. Soo Wong: Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to witnesses with special needs—interpreters and what have you—is there any allocation within the budget? Like, if someone who was hearing impaired, with dual diagnosis, where is it on the budget line that accommodates a family or individual with that special need?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): You know what, Ms. Wong? Excellent question, and I’m embarrassed to say I have neglected to factor it into the budget.

Ms. Soo Wong: So if staff can take this away, just so that we don’t turn away any witnesses or organizations—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): No, I think it’s important.

Ms. Soo Wong: —because this committee needs to be accessible, and I do not want us not being accessible and not able to accommodate that piece. I just wanted to put that on record.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): And the point is very well taken. One, it can be difficult to calculate in advance, and two, let me please make the point that it would never be the case. We do have money within the greater procedural services budget to make hearings as accessible as possible.

Ms. Soo Wong: And, just for notation, to make sure the facilities that we are going to have to be accommodating. I want to make sure. Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, Ms. Elliott?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: I’m just wondering—that’s an excellent point, Soo, that you just raised—how we would deal with it, because the cost of having a sign language interpreter at every meeting would be very expensive. Is there a way that we can ask people if they require special assistance, so that we can just have that assistance available for people who need it, just to keep the costs down?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We’ve actually already received indication from someone who has contacted us and does have special needs, should they be chosen. We’d be looking into that on a case-by-case basis as it happens.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. Wong?

Ms. Soo Wong: So maybe when the Clerk gets written submissions for requests before the committee, or when they get a call, that information needs to be asked: “Will you be providing your own translator or services?” We can certainly accommodate in terms of a facility, but I think that question needs to be asked of each witness, so that we know. They may bring their own translator; they’re more comfortable with their own translator, instead of us providing the translator. I think that question needs to be asked.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, and that would help keep the costs down as well.

Ms. Soo Wong: Yes, absolutely.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Any other questions? Any further questions on the budget? Okay. One other item that—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): I just want to check—sorry.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Would you like me to attempt to calculate, through previous committees, what the additional cost might be to add to this, for the request for next week?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. Jones?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Based on your description of how you can accommodate either within the existing budget, I don’t think that is necessary, as long as we have an understanding that we want the accommodation to be made.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Excellent. Is the committee in a position to approve what we have here now? I guess that would be the question.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes. I am.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Maybe we should put a notation at the bottom.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Keeping in mind that—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: “There may be a possibility of additional expenses for this reason.”

Ms. Sylvia Jones: As the Clerk made reference to, the budget is the bottom line that is being submitted. It is not a detailed budget, so I’m not sure you need the notation. If it makes people more comfortable to know that that would happen, so be it.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: At least so people know we discussed it.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Well, we’re on Hansard.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Is everybody okay with putting a notation on it? Okay. Do we need to vote on this?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Just the budget itself.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): The budget itself—so the bottom line. Okay.

Shall the budget carry? Carried.

Another item that we wanted to discuss was potential witnesses, groups and organizations that we wanted to submit. I see two hands up: Ms. Wong and Ms. Jones—and Ms. DiNovo.

Ms. Soo Wong: Thank you, Madam Chair. There was an article yesterday—it’s in my mess here; I’ll find it. There was a beautiful article, Madam Chair, yesterday—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): I read it as well.

Ms. Soo Wong: —I think all of us may have read it—about autism and employment. They are going to be based here in Ontario and providing employment—because part of the concern of this committee is about employment for the intellectually disabled and older adults, in terms of employability. There was an article—I have it here; I’ll give it to the Clerk, so that everybody can see it, because I think the CEO is bringing that branch here in Ontario. I think it would be really good for us to consider him as a witness for the committee.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): I have Ms. Jones in line, and then I’ll go to Ms. DiNovo.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Okay. I have one general comment, and then a comment relating to when and if we are able to tour. My general comment is, I have very serious concerns that we start making requests for people to appear, and then we don’t leave enough room or opportunity for individuals and families and caregivers. I mean, I could bring forward a list of 20 organizations that I think would be very valuable for the committee to hear, but I am gravely concerned that we’re going to make a list of the “please appear; we’d love to hear from you” and the “if you want to come, contact the Clerk.”

Having said that, how many requests for people to appear have we already received?


The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Twenty-two.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Twenty-two, which sort of reinforces my point. It has been up for less than a week, and we already have a lot of days’ worth, if we’re trying to fit in all these people.

In principle, I have no issue with organizations that are doing excellent work, and I would want to hear from them. I have big concerns about “let’s not invite some,” because that, by extension, makes the others feel they are second-class.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): And that’s a very good point.

Ms. DiNovo.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Yes. Knowing that there are 22, I guess my question would be, can you tell us who those 22 are?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Not at the moment.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: You don’t have them?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): No, I’m sorry. We can get that information, but—

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: But are they 22 individuals, families, organizations or a mix of—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): It’s a mix.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: It’s a mix. I hear Ms. Jones’s comment, and I ring with it. We do want to hear from families and individuals, but there are a couple of key people I would want to invite, so I just want to put that on the record: two organizations, which are AODA, and the spokesperson, David Lepofsky—I think everybody here knows David Lepofsky; I think that we would want to hear from him—and ODSP Action, the other group. I think we would want to hear from somebody from that group.

The only person other than that, that we want to put forward—so I’m not doing a huge list, to Ms. Jones’s point—is Marilyn Dolmage. Again, people know her. She’s an individual—she’s not an organization—but she was the one who spearheaded the Huronia Regional Centre survivor lawsuit.

Those are just the three that I would want to have depute before us. Sure, there will be many, many others who will come forward, but, again, maybe, in light of what Ms. Jones said, we can keep our list to just the critical players here. There, it would help to hear who has already responded from those 22 before we suggest any more, because, again, those are just three off the top of my head. We could keep going if we needed to.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Miss Taylor.

Miss Monique Taylor: Do we have any idea of how many speakers we’re going to be able to hear? Because I came with—I mean, children’s aid societies, and what they’re facing. They have major difficulties when it’s with children—you know what I mean?—and the whole transition period. To me, that’s a key piece—to me. And I’m sure we all have these, right? And then Autism Ontario—so I don’t know. I completely understand, so that’s why I’m like, “How many can we see?” Maybe we should make a plan here so that it doesn’t get out of control and—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): My suggestion would be, at this point—and I also turn to Ms. Elliott and to Mr. Balkissoon, to the ones who were on the previous committee. Can we come up with maybe some sort of a process here?

I feel, for example, that certainly we don’t want to turn away anyone who’s requesting to come and speak at the committee. At the same time, we may have, among those, groups that could make a submission, compared to someone else who perhaps has a family and we would really benefit from hearing.

I don’t know if there was a process, and I know there was a longer time frame with the previous committee. Any suggestions in regard to this?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: It was a longer time frame, and there was more travel that was involved. My recollection is we didn’t turn anybody away who wanted to make a presentation—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: But we had a full year.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: We had a lot longer time. But I do think we should probably make sure that we fulfill the mandate of the committee and make sure that we have representation from the various sectors: housing, educational opportunities, employment opportunities and so on. I don’t want to turn anybody away, but if we have to suggest to people that maybe they could make a written presentation instead of appearing, I would at least like to hear in person from the people from the various sectors that we want to have covered in order to have a full report at the end.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We’d be happy to let you know how many people you can accommodate if you tell us how long we’ll be giving different groups. We know how long the ministries have been invited for. Some of the initial groups had a certain amount of time. If you let us know how long different people will get, we’d be happy to get you the amount of numbers you can fit in over the coming—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Okay. So you’re talking about the length of the presentation and the Q and A that follows.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Chair?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, Mr. Bas Balkissoon.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I would suggest what we do—the Clerk already has 22—is that everybody who has a special request, maybe we should just send that in to Trevor. Let him compile a whole list. Just like we’re sitting today and doing organization, we know the dates we’re meeting, we know the exact hours we’re meeting. We start to program the thing in, and that will also change the advertisement, to put a deadline that you have to submit your name to get on a deputation list.

But on the other hand too, we should make it clear from day one that those who don’t have an opportunity to appear in front of us can also submit in writing. If we do that early enough, we should be able to accommodate everybody. If we can’t, then we’ll have to develop a method where we screen and pick and choose, because we have a deadline.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. Wong, did you want to add to that?

Ms. Soo Wong: I just want to further suggest that maybe the subcommittee—because we have a subcommittee—look at this 22 list. Maybe we do have it today or we don’t; maybe the subcommittee can vet it and put in order what time they’re coming, because we’re here all day. The witnesses need to know, are they coming in the morning session or are they coming in the afternoon session? That’s the first thing.

But I think before we leave today, we should find out the length of the presentations—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, and on that, we should establish the length.

Ms. Soo Wong: Yes, exactly, because I’m just thinking, that’s what the subcommittee is for. They can provide direction for the bigger committee and then decide what is called the “must” list. Ms. Jones talked about the “must” list from different groups. Autism and CAS, those are on the “must” list, versus the “nice to do,” because we’re going to see some patterns coming.

The other piece is, I’m sure everybody in this committee wants to hear what we call best practices out there, both from the academics, in terms of a research base, but also the evidence out there. Very clearly, the goal of our committee is to provide some recommendation to the ministry, the minister and hopefully the budget process. So I think the work of the subcommittee can help to facilitate the list of the speakers and witnesses. Those are my comments.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. DiNovo.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Yes, I agree with Ms. Wong that we can beat this to death here, but we should really relegate this to a subcommittee meeting. I also agree that we need to decide on the time because otherwise, Trevor and others can’t do their jobs.

I’m just looking for past wisdom on the other select committee. I’m thinking of half an hour each in my head, but how did you run the last—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I think we did half an hour of the organizations and we had 20 minutes for individuals.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, we were trying to rack our memories, too. I thought it was 20 minutes.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: We did give individuals less—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, but it was more than your standard—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: —because the organizations that deliver service were more important.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): So when you say half an hour, is half an hour the presentation or half an hour includes 15 minutes of presentation and five minutes or—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Yes.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Or 10, 10 and the balance, right?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes. So let’s do the breakdown.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: In the interests of expediting, why don’t we do 20 minutes all around, organization or individual. It’s going to be hard for these families to share information in a very short period of time, and I don’t want to shortchange them. They’re the point of this committee, so let’s be consistent and say 20 minutes whether you’re an organization or—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Inclusive of questions?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes. So a 10-minute presentation.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Okay. Then we have to clarify that to the deputant.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Okay. So 10 minutes—sorry, Ms. DiNovo.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I’d like to suggest half an hour. Twenty minutes, that’s really—if people are presenting in 10 minutes, that gives us, what, three minutes each per caucus.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Three minutes each.


Ms. Cheri DiNovo: That’s hardly time to get a question out, never mind a response. I think a lot of the wisdom often comes through in the questioning. That’s all.

I mean, half an hour—but I agree; I think if it’s one, it should be for all. It just gives people a little bit more time and us a little bit more time to engage with them. That would be my only suggestion.

Again, coming back to Trevor’s point or others that you can still make a submission. There are still submissions that can be made; it’s not cutting anybody off. But if we are going to bring people in, especially people who are wrestling with children or others with a disability, that’s asking a lot to come in and to present to us. At least half an hour is reasonable.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: But I think what you have to be aware of as you go through this process, which we did—and this is why, if I remember correctly, we set 30 minutes for the organizations, because there were more questions from committee. When you get to the individuals, you’re going to get an individual’s story, and you’re going to hear story after story after story. The line of questioning is not there anymore; it’s more to hear an individual person’s personal problem with the system.

This is why it’s better to deal with the organizations where we will have more questions because we’re interested in where the gap is in the delivery of service. Then we hear from the individuals and families. Personally, I think the 30 and 20 that we used the last time would be ideal for this again.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Any more comments? Ms. Jones.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I’d like to keep it consistent. I’m happy to go for the 30 minutes, but I would like it to be consistent for organizations, individuals, caregivers, across the board. Again, we’re differentiating, and we don’t want to be doing that.

Miss Monique Taylor: But there is—sorry, Chair.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Sorry, Miss Taylor?

Miss Monique Taylor: There is a difference, though, for our line of questioning, between the service and the people who are getting the service. Because I’m thinking in my head, I want to hear from families more than anything, but how much questioning do we want to do to those families compared to how much questioning do we want over the services, because that’s where our pull is and that’s where our changes are made. We’re feeling the families’ struggles; we’re not going to question them on their struggles. But we need to question those services and how can we make the difference there. So that’s my only—thank you, Chair.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): So how about we agree—my suggestion—oh, sorry, Ms. Wong.

Ms. Soo Wong: I hear the concern Ms. Jones raised about making sure it’s consistent, whether it’s an organization or individual. I also hear Miss Taylor’s about being empathetic, being compassionate with our witnesses, especially with families.

I think for organizations, if we have need for more time, we can call those organizations back, right? Technically, we saw two ministries last week. After we hear some witnesses, I am sure we might generate more questions, so my thinking here is—and I’m just putting this out, so I’m open to suggestions—that if there are agencies that we believe need to be called back a second time to further help support our deliberations in terms of recommendations, there will hopefully be some time towards the end, Madam Chair. I don’t know, because this is the first time I’m in a select committee. But I hear very clearly that we want to be consistent, we want to be fair to everybody, whether it’s an individual versus an organization.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): How about we do a 10-minute presentation for everybody, families and organizations, and the extra time will go into questioning so that the organizations can be questioned longer. If we feel that it’s too much, let’s say, for a family to take, we will release them.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: But how would you schedule that if you didn’t have a set time frame—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): You’ll have a 10-minute break here and there whenever you have a family.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Sorry, I’m not clear on what you’re suggesting, so 10 minutes for?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Everybody’s presentation.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Everybody’s presentation would be 10—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: And then how much for the questions?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): It would be a total of 20 minutes.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): If it’s an individual, 10 minutes for the individual questioning. If it’s an organization, the questioning would be longer. The presentations would be the same time throughout for every group.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): No, that wasn’t what I was suggesting. Sorry, I thought—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Oh, sorry. I thought that the difference would be in the questioning.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, the difference is in the questioning, so everyone would get 20 minutes of questioning.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: The way it has worked in the past is, we have left it up to the individuals to take as long as they wanted within whatever the allotted time is, whether they wanted to take up the whole time and leave time for questions or not. It is an individual thing. Some people will come in with very well-prepared presentations. Other people come and tell the story of their own family, and then there will be questions that will naturally arise. I just think that we should give people the option to use the time as they see fit, and then we can always follow up with questions later on.

I do believe it should be even in time, only because I want to get a lot of people through. I want to hear from everyone. I would prefer 20 minutes, but I’m happy to say half an hour. But I do think it should be equally split for individuals and organizations. I think that the information that you get from the individuals will help inform decisions as much as what you get from organizations.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. DiNovo.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I would just ask that somebody make a motion, and let’s get on with it. Let’s vote and move on.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Okay. Would someone want to put forward a motion?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I would be pleased to put forward a motion that, once we are finished with the ministry submissions, each individual and organization that wishes to present has a 30-minute time slot.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Any discussion? Do you have a question? Sorry; the Clerk has a question.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Thirty minutes—the division would be—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: It’s up to the individual.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thirty minutes.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Not defined.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Whatever is left over after a presentation would be divided three ways for the questioning.

Miss Monique Taylor: That’s for services also?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, individuals and organizations, so all future submissions, once we have completed the ministry submissions—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): And the three other organizations? Or no?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Really?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): No, no; I’m asking.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Okay.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): The invitations have gone out, but do they know—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Have those asks been made?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Yes. As soon as the motion was passed, we sent out—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Okay, so they know that they’re getting an hour and 30 minutes?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): They’ve confirmed.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: All right.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Chair, before we vote on the motion, can I just ask a question of the Clerk?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Sure.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: When the deputants call in or we call them to ask them to appear in front of us, do you clarify to them that they have 30 minutes for a presentation, but if they choose to make a shorter presentation, the committee will question them for the rest? I want to make sure that they understand so that they either come prepared to answer questions or they don’t.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): It’s in the phone call, and we also have confirmation letters that go out to them that specify that remaining time will be used for questions by members of the committee if that is the format that the committee is following.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: But you’re clarifying to them that once the 30 minutes is up, we’re not allowed to ask any questions?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Yes.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Fine. I’ll support it.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Is it 20 minutes or 30 minutes? I’m sorry.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thirty.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Thirty minutes.

Miss Taylor.

Miss Monique Taylor: I would just like clarification. They’re being informed beforehand that they have a full 30 minutes and that they can use 20 minutes for their presentation and leave 10 for questioning or use the entire 30? So it’s up to them how they use their 30? Got it. Thank you.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: It’s only the ministries who burn the time. Everybody else wants to engage the committee.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: No, we had some agencies that came in and just filled it up.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Well, you know what? That sends a message too, quite frankly.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: They want to protect their territory. You’ll see this as we go along.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): We have a motion on the floor. Shall the motion carry? Carried.

Do we have any other items?

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Did we pick the cities we’re going to go to?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Can you repeat what they were?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): The cities were Ottawa, London, Thunder Bay, Sandy Lake and Moosonee.

Miss Monique Taylor: Ottawa, London—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Sandy Lake and Moosonee.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Are we going to program that when we go to Thunder Bay, we’ll do Sandy Lake and Moosonee all in one block?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes, I think so.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I don’t want to go up there three times.


Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I’m a hot-blooded person.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. Jones.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Are we agreed that it will be three consecutive days of—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): The motion set out that the intention to travel would be in the week of January 13, if possible.


Ms. Soo Wong: Okay, but you’ll coordinate it so that we don’t go down, up, up, down.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Yes.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: The other thing is, did I hear a comment that our transportation to Thunder Bay may be a charter?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): In this case, some of the most economical flight we can do, if we do a loop, is to charter a plane for ourselves. It’s a smaller, 18-seater plane that we’d be taking.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): I have Ms. Jones waiting, and then Ms. Wong—

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Because I—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Mr. Balkissoon continues talking.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: The last time we were promised this, we went in a six-seater and I froze from Thunder Bay to Toronto, because there was no heat.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): I can’t promise anything on that. I’m sorry.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Bring a portable heater. Ms. Jones?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I’ll bring you an extra coat, Bas.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: What’s that? When you’re up there at 200 feet and there’s no washroom—or 2,000 feet—and you’ve got a three-and-a-half-hour flight or so from Thunder Bay to Toronto and there’s no heat in these small aircraft, it’s no fun.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): It’s going to be fine.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: The worst part is, I—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Get control, Chair. Get control.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Can we move along?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Yes. Ms. Jones?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I am cognizant that this may not work, because we have a fully loaded day, but my suggestion is that when we go to London, if there is some time, I would like to suggest that we do a tour of the CPRI. It was referenced in the children and youth presentation as the only MCYS-operated facility, and it also does a lot of research. If there is an opportunity to not bounce people off the deputation list but still incorporate a tour of that facility, I think that there would be some value.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Everybody in agreement? Yes. Okay. Ms. Wong?

Ms. Soo Wong: Madam Chair, I just want to check for clarification. I know that in the past, when committee travels—I’m not sure if this was raised at the subcommittee—each party had a staffer accompany them on their travels. I wasn’t sure if that was discussed and what have you. I know that in one of the other committees we had a staffer accompanying, so I wasn’t sure if that was—

Miss Monique Taylor: It’s not in the budget.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): No, not on any of the committees I travelled on.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Finance has done it.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Oh, finance has done it from time to time in pre-budget.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: But that’s different.

Ms. Soo Wong: Just checking. That’s all. Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Any other questions in regard to planes—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Trains and automobiles?

Mrs. Laura Albanese: —trains and automobiles?

Miss Monique Taylor: So really, how bad is this plane?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: It’s not bad. It’s not so bad.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I’ll tell you: I travelled once to Thunder Bay, and the staffers took Air Canada from Ottawa to Toronto and back to Thunder Bay. They sent us in a small plane. They got there before us, and we had the lousiest flight. I’m just making sure that this thing is done with equity and fairness.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: We’ve all done it before. It’s not that bad.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): We’ll make sure to have the Clerk on board.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Yes. I will travel with you everywhere.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Well, you’d better make sure we get a big plane. If we don’t get any—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Are we satisfied with the locations? Are there any other locations?

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Bearskin. It means “bare skin” when it says “Bearskin,” right?

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Is everything okay? Is there any other business that the committee wishes to discuss? Ms. Jones?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I guess it’s just a general comment, because I’ve never had this experience where requests to the ministries have said, “Yes, we’ll do it later, not now.” What are the repercussions that we, as a committee, can impose if we keep getting a “can’t do it this week”?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Normally, the course of action on any request—and this, at this point, was a request. At this point, there’s no reason to think that we won’t have people come. However, if the committee doesn’t, the steps would be to make another request at another date.

If the committee is rebuffed a number of times, then it would be something we would report to the House, to say that the committee is not really receiving co-operation, and bring it to the attention of the House.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: And actually, Wednesday is not the greatest day to meet, because of public accounts. Ministries go to public accounts, they go to estimates. It was a bad choice, Wednesday.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): And cabinet.

Miss Monique Taylor: Do we have an agenda for next week yet? Since we are on constit week and we have a full day, right?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We should have an agenda out by the end of this week. You’ll know who we’re having.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Ms. Taylor, I don’t know if you missed it at the beginning, but we do have a number of confirmed ministries already—

Miss Monique Taylor: Oh, okay. I’m sorry.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): —and the organizations that we had discussed in the subcommittee. Would you please kindly repeat it or—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): I’m not sure who we can—

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): I believe you only had two ministries that still needed—

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): To get back to us.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): —to get back.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We’ll have it out by the end of the week for sure.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): —but there were three, at least, if not more.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): CUPE Ontario, OPSEU and Community Living Ontario have all confirmed. Those three will be here. We have not heard from aboriginal affairs as of yet. There might be something back at the office.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): And health.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Training, colleges and universities has confirmed. Municipal affairs and housing has confirmed. Education, I believe, shouldn’t be a problem. Community safety and correctional services, I believe, have confirmed for that date as well, and health is fine as well.

Miss Monique Taylor: They’re all confirmed for next week? Beautiful.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): There are a couple here that we won’t be able to fit, so we’ve got to work on who to take and who to—

Miss Monique Taylor: But we’ve got a full day. That’s all I was concerned about, making sure that our day was full.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): Yes. No, we’re good.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Our day will be full.

Miss Monique Taylor: Excellent. No time to waste in this committee.


The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Sorry. Can I have everyone’s attention, please? Research has a question.

Ms. Erica Simmons: The article that Ms. Wong mentioned about the employment firm looking to place autistic people in workplaces—there’s a link on the issue binder website. We’re trying to keep the issue binder up to date. Whatever comes up, day by day we add. So it’s current.

Ms. Soo Wong: Thank you.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Okay. That’s great. Ms. Taylor?

Miss Monique Taylor: The issue binder?

Ms. Erica Simmons: Trevor sent a link around.

Miss Monique Taylor: Oh, okay.

Ms. Erica Simmons: It’s a website with resources about development disabilities for the members of the committee, with links to organizations and resources.

Miss Monique Taylor: Okay. My staff might have—


The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Trevor Day): We’ll resend it out.

The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Okay. Any further questions? Any further business?

When will the subcommittee be meeting? Should we discuss that?


The Chair (Mrs. Laura Albanese): Okay. The Clerk will try to schedule through our offices. If nothing else, we shall adjourn and see you on November 13 at 9 o’clock.

Subcommittee, the Clerk will be in contact through your offices. Thank you.

The committee adjourned at 1648.


Wednesday 6 November 2013

Developmental services strategy DS-25


Chair / Présidente

Mrs. Laura Albanese (York South–Weston / York-Sud–Weston L)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente

Mrs. Christine Elliott (Whitby–Oshawa PC)

Mrs. Laura Albanese (York South–Weston / York-Sud–Weston L)

Mr. Bas Balkissoon (Scarborough–Rouge River L)

Ms. Cheri DiNovo (Parkdale–High Park ND)

Mrs. Christine Elliott (Whitby–Oshawa PC)

Ms. Mitzie Hunter (Scarborough–Guildwood L)

Mr. Rod Jackson (Barrie PC)

Ms. Sylvia Jones (Dufferin–Caledon PC)

Miss Monique Taylor (Hamilton Mountain ND)

Ms. Soo Wong (Scarborough–Agincourt L)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Grant Crack (Glengarry–Prescott–Russell L)

Mr. Jack MacLaren (Carleton–Mississippi Mills PC)

Clerk / Greffier

Mr. Trevor Day

Staff / Personnel

Ms. Erica Simmons, research officer,
Research Services