Assemblée législative de l'Ontario

ORGANIZATION

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT ACT, 1991 / LOI DE 1991 MODIFIANT LE CODE DE LA ROUTE

OPTIMIST CLUBS OF MID-WESTERN ONTARIO

MINISTRY OF THE SOLICITOR GENERAL

ONTARIO FEDERATION OF HOME AND SCHOOL ASSOCIATIONS

CONTENTS

Monday 16 December 1991

Organization

Highway Traffic Amendment Act, 1991, Bill 124 / Loi de 1991 modifiant le Code de la route, projet de loi 124

Optimist Club of Mid-western Ontario

Ministry of the Solicitor General

Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations

Adjournment

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

Chair: Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold NDP)

Vice-Chair: Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay NDP)

Arnott, Ted (Wellington PC)

Cleary, John C. (Cornwall L)

Dadamo, George (Windsor-Sandwich NDP)

Huget, Bob (Sarnia NDP)

Jordan, Leo (Lanark-Renfrew PC)

Klopp, Paul (Huron NDP)

McGuinty, Dalton (Ottawa South L)

Murdock, Sharon (Sudbury NDP)

Ramsay, David (Timiskaming L)

Wood, Len (Cochrane North NDP)

Substitutions:

Cunningham, Dianne E. (London North PC) for Mr Jordan

Fawcett, Joan M. (Northumberland L) for Mr Ramsay

Miclash, Frank (Kenora L) for Mr McGuinty

Phillips, Gerry (Scarborough-Agincourt L) for Mr Cleary

Clerk pro tem: Manikel, Tannis

Staff: Luski, Lorraine, Research Officer, Legislative Research Service

The committee met at 1537 in committee room 1.

ORGANIZATION

The Chair: We are commencing this afternoon's meeting. The first item on the agenda is the discussion of agenda re Bill 118. Mr Waters, what do you have to say to that matter?

Mr Waters: We have five hours of hearings and nine and a quarter hours of people presenting. In one case we have five hours of hearings and 13 1/2 hours of presenters. We have a problem. We went from famine to feast in this particular case. We are going to have to look at how we are going to deal with the fact that we have only limited hours and we have this great influx of people who are going to come before us. I would be open to some discussion as to how we are going to deal with that. Obviously, we have a choice. I think Ottawa was probably the worst one, where we have five hours of hearings and 13 1/2 hours of presenters. As an example, there is no way you can cut the time allotments back enough to cover it. Even with 15-minute time allotments you are not going to make it.

Interjection: How about sitting longer?

Mr Waters: The problem is that you are going to almost a three to one ratio and I do not know how we are going to do that. The only other way is to try to create a balance about people who are coming and cut people off the list, if you can do that. There are a couple. I think Chatham looks good. We have four and a half hours of people coming before us and five hours to hear, so we are in good shape there. When we go to St Catharines, we might be able to do it, because there is only an hour and a quarter difference. Sioux Lookout is the opposite. We have five groups coming before us in Sioux Lookout. Thunder Bay is right on, five for five. I think we have to sit down as a committee and decide what we are going to do. I have never been in a situation where we have had to come up with this before.

The Chair: I am hoping somebody will perhaps suggest spending two days in Ottawa.

Mr Huget: Perhaps it would be a good subject for the subcommittee to deal with in terms of reviewing a list and the requirements, the additional witnesses on the list, the additional time that will be required and all those related issues, and report back to the full committee on Wednesday. I think it is the habit and traditionally the responsibility of the subcommittee to not only determine the witness locations but the witness list. I think it would be expedient if they were to go away, do that and report on Wednesday.

The Chair: You might want to make a motion to that effect after Mr Klopp has spoken.

Mr Klopp: I agree with Bob to have us all try to please each other. I am willing to live with what the subcommittee does. There are three representatives, one from each group, on that committee. They can make these tough decisions on whether it is two days here or cut one day out and move some people around. I will live with that.

Mr Jordan: In reviewing the numbers, certainly in Ottawa, as Dan has indicated, if you want to take that for an example along with other places relative to the time, but in any of them, just glancing at them, there seems to be repetition. I am sure the material that is going to be presented is going to be basically something we have already heard. When we are reviewing it, would we be free to weed it out that way and cut down on the presentations?

Ms S. Murdock: Actually, following along with what Leo was saying, the subcommittee is a smaller group and a more workable group and can sit down and figure out whether we are listening to the same groups in different communities. If it is the same groups, I imagine that much of what would be said, considering that northern Ontario is different than southern Ontario, would be the same. Therefore, I say the subcommittee would be a more workable arrangement than 12 of us.

Mr Huget: I would move a motion that the subcommittee report back on Wednesday around the deliberations regarding the witness list and determining the witness list and resolve those issues that remain outstanding with the witness list and time allocated for hearings.

The Chair: As part of your motion, are you indicating when the subcommittee is going to meet to consider this?

Mr Huget: I would ask that the subcommittee report on Wednesday, so it is whatever is logistically required for it to be able to do so. They could meet prior to our meeting on Wednesday.

Ms S. Murdock: I suggest we arrange that we meet at 4 pm, with the subcommittee meeting at 3:30 pm, if I can amend that, or whenever orders of the day start.

The Chair: I am bound by the agenda that has been set by the clerk for Wednesday.

Ms S. Murdock: We are not bound.

The Chair: There being no further discussion of that motion, all in favour of the motion, please indicate. Opposed?

Motion agreed to.

The Chair: We have an embarrassment of riches. We will resume at 4 o'clock.

Mr Klopp: Mr Chair, I notice that our committee from Wingham is here. Can we not start at 3:45 pm? Is that against the regulations and rules?

The Chair: Probably, but far be it for me to feel obliged to follow the regulations and rules of the Legislature.

Mr Klopp: They come from the great county of Huron and I understand it is awfully snowy at the north end of my great county, so if they could get in here a few minutes earlier, I am sure they would find a few minutes to get home sooner, if it is all right with the rest of the group that is here.

The Chair: Pleased to do it.

Mr Klopp: My colleagues, I am at your wishes.

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT ACT, 1991 / LOI DE 1991 MODIFIANT LE CODE DE LA ROUTE

Resuming consideration of Bill 124, An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act / Projet de loi 124, Loi portant modification du Code de la route.

The Chair: Come on up and seat yourselves at the table. There is coffee, juice and Pepsi available for people who want to make themselves a coffee, juice or Pepsi.

OPTIMIST CLUBS OF MID-WESTERN ONTARIO

The Chair: This is the Optimist Club of Wingham. We have with us John Jamieson, past president, and Constable Ed Daer from the Wingham police. Welcome. You have some written material. Everybody has a copy of that. I think people will be very interested in asking you questions and engaging in some dialogue. Please commence your presentation and try to leave us the second 15 minutes for discussion.

Mr Jamieson: My name is John Jamieson. This is my friend and colleague Ed Daer.

One of the mottoes of the Optimist Club is "Friend of Youth." Every year in our town and some others we run a bike rodeo. The main objective is to make children aware of the rules of the road. We hand out some helpful hints on safe riding.

To be specific, we would like to explain some of the events that take place. We contact the local newspaper and through the paper we put out hints about safe bike and safe automobile operation when bikes are on the road. We have a ticket printed in two parts. We give them to the police department and our police officers then can hand out tickets when a person does something right on his bike instead of doing something wrong. That helps the police get to be friends with the people they are dealing with. Our local radio station, CKNX, has a draw every morning before the kids go to school. The numbers drawn can pick up their prizes at the bike rodeo at the end of the week. During this week we show a video at the schools. One of the schools in our area took a great interest in it this year and as a result all the winners of our bike rodeo came from that school, because of the teachers' special effort.

The Optimist Club licenses the bikes and each particular bike is given a plate, and at that time we engrave a number on the bike and it makes it one of a kind. The bike rodeo, the grand finale of the week, is held in the local arena. That is when Constable Ed Daer comes into play. We set up a bike driving course on the arena floor and each person must go through the course. Eventually he is evaluated by an Optimist and a score given. At this time, Constable Daer checks the bikes for safety. If any equipment is missing, he speaks to the young person. At the end of the situation, they get a Coke, a bag of chips and a T-shirt for participating. Some of them win trophies from the public school.

At last spring's meet, Constable Daer brought to my attention a number of new bicycles that were not fit to be on the roads. They did not have the equipment for the rules of the Highway Traffic Act. I am in the car business -- not very lucrative, by the way -- and cars come from all over the world, but they have to meet some stringent standards set down by the federal government and each vehicle must be equipped properly or we cannot sell it. The manufacturers know that, so when they come to sell cars in Ontario they fit the rules.

These bikes that came to our attention had nothing on them. There were no reflectors, no lights, no sound system. They were terrible. Some of these requirements are set out in the Highway Traffic Act and it was suggested in some of the letters I got that our police officers should enforce these rules.

In Wingham, we try to encourage our young people to be friends of the police officers. Through this ticket situation we try to encourage that. We do not want our policemen to be the heavy, telling this young fellow or girl that the new bicycle his or her parents just got him or her is not fit to be on the road. If we got safe bikes for the kids, we would do our best to try to teach them to ride the things. Our police officers have more serious crimes to look after. I think this should be put in place at the manufacturer's level. If you are changing the Highway Traffic Act, I suppose that will be the place for it to be.

It was also suggested that there is a variety of lights and sound systems available to the public. Should we let the manufacturer decide what is needed? There seems to be a large variety of automobiles to choose from when you go to buy one of them, too.

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Our Optimist Club, along with other Optimists, is in favour of helmets. That is a good idea. If you have read the medical statistics, everybody would believe in them. At the bottom I have a couple of suggestions you can read for yourselves. I think they have to wear a helmet to play hockey, so maybe that would be a way to sway people to think, "Am I going to send my child out in that traffic without a helmet?" It takes time for these helmets to come in. Motorcycles took quite a while. Those are just suggestions that might be of interest when it comes time to advertise that helmets are necessary. That is about all for me. Ed, have you anything to add?

Mr Daer: I do not think I have a whole lot to say at this time, other than you watch some young kids who get racing on 10-speed, 12-speed or even 15-speed bicycles. They come down the hill and I have clocked them on radar doing 50 miles an hour. If anybody here has an idea of what happens when two cars meet at 50 miles an hour, you can imagine what a car and a bicycle would do at 50 miles an hour. Male or female, whichever it may be riding it, does not have a chance to live without a helmet and maybe would not have a chance to live with the helmet. I would like the chances of not having as much in the head injury category with the helmet on better than I would without one.

As far as bicycles in the bicycle rodeo are concerned, like Mr Jamieson has said, I just could not believe the amount of new bikes coming through. I do all the bicycle safety checks and to give you some idea we have categories from 1 to 10 and every test the kid goes through he gets X number of marks, depending on what category. There are so many marks for the exam, so many marks for going through the safety check and then marks for doing the actual safe riding portion of our program.

It hurts when a child -- boy or girl -- brings a brand-new bicycle to you and then you maybe give them a 7. First of all, they do not have a light which, for the main part, maybe is not such a serious violation because a lot of kids when they are younger do not ride their bicycles at night anyway. But the Highway Traffic Act states you must have reflective tape, reflectors front and rear and a bell or horn. These bicycles are equipped with none of these. They have reflective tape on the fenders, but they do not have their basic red reflector at the rear and the white reflector at the front and they have no bell or horn. So when you mark the kid down, they are upset because they thought they were going to get full marks for having a brand-new bicycle, and you are not able to do that.

There were so many coming through. This is what has actually started it. I had just casually said to John, "You know, it's a shame the bicycles aren't equipped or forced to be equipped like a car is, because you sure can't put a car on the road without having a horn, signal lights and night lights for driving and one thing and another." Now there are new automobiles coming out and the headlights come on automatically as soon as the engine in the car starts. John and I talked a couple of times after that about it and then, unknown to me, John decided to see if he could not do something about it. All his letter-writing, I guess, has eventually wound up bringing us here in front of you people.

I do not know whether you are able to do anything to offset this problem, but I certainly back John up on the fact that I think the manufacturer should be forced to go so far as to have full reflectors, full reflective tape and some kind of safety horn, whether a good bell or horn. Some of the stuff they sell are little plastic things. If you go into a store, you pay $4 or $5 for it and you blow the thing about three times and it is finished. Most of you probably are parents and you have likely already done that, so I do not think I need to expand on that one. But there should be some decent bell or horn brought out that will last for more than two or three weeks. I think something should be put in. If you are going to redo the Highway Traffic Act or you are empowered to make a new law on bicycles before the spring rush starts, I honestly feel that to protect the children, the manufacturers should have to have these bikes fully equipped when they are put up for sale.

I would love to see helmets made mandatory, but again I think it would be something like the motorcycles. I remember it took a long time to get the motorcycle helmets through and now we very rarely see anybody without one. I think it could be done, but it would all depend on you people whether you could bring that one off or not. I think I have said all I can say on the matter.

The Chair: You may want to stay for the next presentation by the Deputy Solicitor General of Ontario who is going to talk about some of the law enforcement aspects of the legislation.

We have 16 minutes, a good healthy chunk of time for people to ask questions and engage in dialogue.

Mr Arnott: Thank you very much for coming in and making a presentation this afternoon. I always appreciate the rural Ontario point of view when it comes forward. So often provincial governments tend to look at things through the urban model and it is great that you came in. My colleague Dianne Cunningham sponsored this bill. She is unfortunately unable to be here at the moment, but I understand she is coming in later. I think we would like to reserve a bit of our time for Dianne if she does come in.

The Chair: We will make sure Ms Cunningham has time, one way or another.

Mr Jordan: I also appreciate your taking the time to come in, especially to bring this type of information in front of the committee. I have not been in here on all occasions but this is the first time, I believe, I have heard someone come forward and point out the lack of equipment with the bike when it is being sold. We could easily have a regulation the same as for other means of transportation for minimum requirements similar to the ones you pointed out. My point of interest is, could you include in that an adjustable helmet? Could one be devised that was adjustable for ages, say, 6 to 12 or something that would be mandatory to be sold with that bike?

Mr Jamieson: I think it would be a good idea if it was mandatory and sold with the bike. As I say, there is variety when you go to buy a car. Give us variety to buy a bike and equip the thing properly. Our Optimist Club worked very hard to try and teach kids to ride bikes, so I think it probably has to be drawn out in several areas. I think the manufacturer has a responsibility to the people to equip the bike properly to start with.

Mr Jordan: You would agree to consider the helmet part of that.

Mr Jamieson: That would be a great idea.

Mr Jordan: The other thing was, what lead time would you suggest? Supposing we were to pass legislation tomorrow making it mandatory to wear the helmet, what lead time would you say we need before we actually start making it an offence not to do it, if you know what I mean? Do we need two years of education? Do we need one year?

Mr Jamieson: I know what you mean, but I am not in the advertising business. How well are you going to advertise it?

Mr Jordan: I think it is more education than anything else.

Mr Daer: I think that could be taken on TV and radio stations. We could do a little thing there. Before I continue with that, I would like to back up one second on your first point about the age bracket. I do not know whether you would ever get through to anybody 16 years of age or over. If we are going to do something like this, I think our big goal would be to concentrate on the ones just getting on to their first two-wheeler. They are off the tricycle on to their first two-wheeler; they have gone from this bike to their next bike. Before they ever get to the adult bike we have got them into a helmet. In most cases, kids with their first bikes are not out on the road at night. If you are going to make a law, I would like to see a light included, but there are so many kids who do not ride a bike at night.

Mr Jordan: But someone else may pick it up.

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Mr Daer: It is funny, because I pay more attention when we are doing the program with the tickets. I am looking for kids to give these tickets away to, because we usually have about 50 every day we try to get rid of. Once the first day is in and the kids get to know these tickets are up for grabs, you would not believe how they will stop for stop signs and make hand signals. I also do bicycle safety work in all the schools, so I get to see good points and bad points. Sometimes I think I am banging my head against the wall, but that is usually with the grade 7 or grade 8 kids, 13 and 14 years old. The younger ones will listen to you and you can watch them.

Mr Jordan: You are saying it is more incentive and education than coming down hard with the law?

Mr Daer: Yes, but as far as the helmet goes, if you are going to make a law on it, make it up to maybe 16 years of age. Do not try to force us to catch somebody on a 12-speed who is 16 or 17 years old because he has no helmet on. He is going to go through back alleys and across lawns. They are like the Ski-Doos right now. They just play chicken with us. If they do not have a helmet or they do something wrong, then forget about it.

Mr Jordan: They make a farce of the law.

Mr Daer: Yes. I would say stay at 16 and under on your helmets because I think we can work the lead time. I think we can saturate our area. I have a video. I do not know whether you would be equipped to watch it or not if you have not seen it. The video I show in the schools has come from Petro-Canada and is called RITE Riders. Everybody in it has a helmet on. I have shown this one to the schools now, so they have all seen the kids participating in the video wearing helmets.

I can reinforce that back on there, but it would be like putting a new stop sign in a bad area. You do not charge right off the bat. You usually give a warning. We could work in some lead time. We can use our newspaper for advertising, or maybe through the government's assistance you could have some posters with the helmet campaign on them sent to all the police departments.

Mr Jordan: That is the law. It would be up to each municipality to say when it was going to actually --

Mr Daer: Yes, but bearing in mind we are dealing with kids, whatever you make for a fine, do not make it $78.75, because it is going to come out of the parents' pockets. Keep it about a $10 fine for a first offence, something that will hurt the kid. They can take his newspaper money, his pop bottle gathering money, or his allowance away from him and then make the second one maybe a little higher. That is the only way I think you can handle it. Then use some lead time to send us some posters. Any time we get posters from the government -- I am getting enough through the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, so I get all the posters to distribute. They can certainly send in enough of them, so I think maybe we can use a poster campaign the same as we are doing for our RITE Riders program right now.

The lead time would be no problem. Suggest a lead time of maybe two to three months. Get the kids convinced the helmets are necessary. I would sooner take the bike away from the kid for a day in punishment than give him a $10 fine, if you want my own opinion.

I do not know how many departments have them, but we have little violation tickets. If we see a kid running stop signs, we issue one and then he has to take his copy home and have it brought back to us with the parents' signatures so the parents know he has committed an offence. If he gets real bad, we take the bike away and then take it home.

Mr Jamieson: We had a little problem with the ticket we issued to the police when we first started it. Every kid in town, when he got a ticket from a policeman, whether for doing something right or not, threw it away because he did not want mom and dad to know he got stopped by the police. We went through two or three years with very few coming to get their gifts at the bike rodeo, but last year we had a little more advertising through our local radio station and pushed it a little harder. We gave out a lot more gifts, which made us happy. Now they are aware of it.

The helmet thing, I think, has to have a little lead time, but we can get some advertising from our local station. They are very co-operative about the Optimists Club and the police department.

Mr Klopp: Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today. Wingham is in my riding and it is nice that we have some people from rural Ontario here, especially from the great county of Huron.

You brought up some interesting facts and points. I know we met one day in Wingham on outreach and talked about your concern, and I realized bikes are actually being manufactured here without a few safety standards, which ironically we already have in some of our rules the police are asked to enforce, but as pointed out, if the manufacturer is sending them out like that brand-new, why do they have to be the heavy?

I hope that today, if nothing else, there has been some more knowledge. This itch has been scratched a little more. We have people here from MTO who maybe know some people in the federal jurisdiction. I understand the standards that are put on manufacturers is a federal jurisdiction. It has been brought up again. It is in this committee. The MTO is here and the parliamentary assistant is here. My hope today is that if nothing else, we can continue to get at that itch, because it is very important to get these bikes to have a few standards on them when they leave the manufacturers.

I think one of their arguments was that the bike would cost too much. I have not bought a brand-new bike yet. My son is six and my daughter is three, but any old bike at all is $100. Really, for another $10 or $15 more, on their massive production lines, they could get some standards made.

Mr Jamieson: I guess it is like any other business. If they want to sell the bike, they will keep the price down.

Mr Klopp: That is right. With regard to your point, I want to bring out that this particular bill is directed more for the older people and hopefully to educate the young people through peer pressure to buy helmets. As you pointed out, Constable Daer, you are basically telling us: "Don't have this bill. It goes after older people, 16 and over." You are actually telling us, "If you're going to pass it, pass it, but just forget about them because we're not going to change their minds." I am almost thinking this is exactly opposite to what we are hoping this bill will do.

Mr Daer: My concern is that you can lead a horse to water, but you can never make the sucker drink. It is the same with seatbelts. The other night I did the RIDE program. I thought we were getting seatbelts under control, but out of 235 vehicles, we had, I think, 41 warnings for not having a seatbelt on. That is high.

My concern is the youngsters. Of course I am a safety officer, so I am doing all the school work and I see the kids day in and day out and generally at the arena or at the golf course or on the ball diamond or something. I see these kids all the time. Maybe I am too concerned about trying to do something for them more than for the adults, but I have seen some of our local clowns -- pardon my expression, but that is after 23 years of police work; you get to know some of these guys you run into every night after the hotel closes -- and there is no way. You would go blue in the face. You will never get them to wear a helmet. First of all, generally they take any bike they get their hands on and as soon as they see us they drop it and run anyway.

I am not against going for the full-blown thing like we do on motorcycles, but then again, you cannot be on a motorcycle and have a licence to drive one and pass the qualifying test until you are 16, but a passenger must wear it. You are only allowed one person on a bicycle and you do not have to be 16 to ride a bicycle.

I am not against doing it; I am just saying I think I could have a better chance of enforcing the helmet to get the young kids convinced to wear it by staying -- maybe you could leave the law wide open and just leave it as if it were a seatbelt. Anybody is subject to being charged for a seatbelt unless you get a letter from your doctor. That is the only option out that you have. Maybe we could just leave it a carte blanche opening.

But what are you going to do with the fine? You cannot have a $78 fine for a kid. I would love to do it to some of our adults, but is it going to be like our liquor laws? Do you have a fine for a minor who is consuming as compared to an adult who is consuming? Do you hit the adult harder because he should know better, where the minor gets off a little lighter? Are you going to do that with the bicycles, have a $53 fine for an adult for not wearing a helmet where a kid gets a $10 fine or something like that? That can be worked out.

I would not mind seeing it for the adults, but my concern is, how you are going to enforce it for an adult? You can get the kids. They will stop to talk to you. They see the cruiser and they wave at you -- most of them, anyway. You can talk to them and tell them, "Get your helmet on," type of thing.

Mr Jamieson: Also, the hockey helmet, I think, took a while to come in. One of the reasons it is in now is that some years back they educated the young kids going on the ice to wear a helmet. Now look at the hockey game. Everybody is wearing a helmet.

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Mr Klopp: I think they also legislated a little bit. I know our league itself said, "You can't start tykes unless you wear a helmet," so there is a bit of legislation, but education should be first. I think that is what we are going to try to do. We have to do that and we recognize it. You brought up some good points.

Ms S. Murdock: I want to compliment you, the Optimist Club and the police department, for working together. I think it was a great idea to have positive reinforcement in terms of giving tickets for doing things right instead of doing things wrong. I really like that idea, and I think it probably could be implemented in all our ridings just on a local level. I am going to go home now and see if I have an Optimist Club in my riding.

Mr Jamieson: I hope you have.

Ms S. Murdock: Then I will tell them to call you.

Mr Jamieson: I will get that patented before you call.

Ms S. Murdock: I got the impression -- I do not know whether it is an incorrect one, so I want you to correct me if I am wrong; I think it was on page 2 in the middle of the page somewhere -- that with the police having to look after more serious crimes, I wondered whether or not Constable Daer believes that if you are a good bicycle driver, you would eventually become a good automobile driver. Would you hold that to be true?

Mr Daer: Yes, I would have to agree with that, because every time I do bicycle safety they have to write an exam, and I use the rules of the road, which apply to bicycle drivers the same as they do a car driver. They all know the signs. Most of them are coming up with close to 100% on the exam anyway, and I have different levels for the kids. For the smaller ones I have an easy exam and then I get a little harder and then I go to an intermediate exam for the grade 7 and grade 8 students and I make it a little tougher.

I would have to agree with that in some cases, although I have finished a lesson in the afternoon and started work at 6 o'clock and had kids run the stop sign right in front of the cruiser. Two hours or so after I finished a bicycle safety lesson, they totally forgot everything that was told them. As a matter of fact, this did happen right to me. Three of them who were in my class on the Friday afternoon blew a stop sign as I started work at 6 o'clock on my first pass on the street.

Ms S. Murdock: As a former teacher, I can say that repetition is often the name of the game.

Mr Daer: I will be honest with you. It is really funny. The last couple of years especially, since Mr Jamieson has come up with the idea of these tickets, this is what we have done. This will be about our fourth or fifth year?

Mr Jamieson: Fourth year.

Mr Daer: But last year especially with the tickets it was amazing, as soon as they knew they were out, what good bike riders these kids were. They deliberately look for the cruiser and then do something right so they get a chance at the draw. That is a positive outlook as far as I am concerned, because now they are starting to do something right, and if they see a cruiser, before they get to a stop sign they will stop and make their right-hand signals or their left-hand signals or whatever they have to make. I have also seen them when I have been in my own car.

Ms S. Murdock: Yes, that is true. In terms of the comments you made about how you thought seatbelts were working and then when you stopped the cars the other night the charges were high, it is probably true that the education -- our plan is to have a long phase-in period with education, without necessarily getting charged right away. They would get warned a number of times before you would do that.

Mr Daer: I would definitely be against charges going out, at least for the first six months or so, until we get these kids convinced that helmets are a must. The more we get to wear them, the easier it is going to be. "I'm not going to wear the thing," but if they see some of their friends wearing it -- that is something where maybe the parents could be worked on too.

Ms S. Murdock: The other thing is that seatbelts are less visible than helmets, let's face it. You know the Highway Traffic Act goes for the 16 and ups because a bicycle is considered a vehicle under the Highway Traffic Act, but this would apply to all bicycles, tricycles, etc. It is just a thought. It is going to be very difficult to enforce, but I think we can do it, as you say, with education. I want to thank you again for coming in. It has been a pleasure.

Mr Jamieson: When you go to Ottawa, I hope you hear from the medical association. They have some terrific statistics that will scare the life out of you. You will want to get this bill done right away when you hear them.

Ms S. Murdock: We have had about two weeks of hearings here. Many have been doctors, rehabilitation specialists, the Sick Kids emergency room doctors and so on, and yes, the stats are frightening.

Mrs Fawcett: I am really happy that you have come and certainly happy that you are a supporter of helmets for children. I am one who believes it has to start right at the very earliest age possible, along with the education.

The bicycle safety and so on that you do has intrigued me. Is this all brands of bikes you are finding that are not fully equipped when the children bring them in or is it certain brands or --

Mr Daer: It never seems to matter whether they are small ones or big ones, the little 10- or 11-year-old right up through to the adult bringing in a brand-new bike. Some of the adults brought in a bike just to put on a licence plate. We do it at our office as well, but we make a point of advertising, "If you need a licence, come to the rodeo." We put it on and then we engrave a number up underneath. It is for our purposes too, because we get a lot of bikes that are taken and the guy rips off the licence plate. You cannot rip off the number because it is put in with a marking pencil. All we have to do is look underneath. Then we go to the files and we can get that bike back to whoever owns it and put another licence plate on it and stick another number on it. The adults bring bikes in just to get the plates and then they bring them over for me to engrave. There would be nothing on it, other than reflective tape that comes with the fenders. In the case of the 10- or 12-speeds, they do not even have fenders.

Mrs Fawcett: That is right. Is this a program all Optimist clubs do, or is this your program?

Mr Jamieson: Optimist clubs run bike rodeos all across North America. Some do not, but most Optimist clubs run a bike rodeo. It is a national program.

Mrs Fawcett: You do not feel it will be a problem to include a helmet as well, stressing that?

Mr Jamieson: No. I wrote to our local governor who looks after our whole area, and yes, he was in favour of our coming down and talking to you people.

Mrs Fawcett: Have the Optimists ever thought of a campaign to get the manufacturers attuned to the proper safety regulations you would like to see? Have you ever done anything in that regard?

Mr Jamieson: No. I do not see any point in talking to the manufacturer. I think it has to be legislated. The ruling on automobiles had to come through the federal government quite a few years back, and it has been changed many times to accommodate other things that are added. I do not think there would be any point in talking to the manufacturer. He is having a great time.

Mrs Cunningham: I would like to thank both of you for coming before the committee today. We are looking for the best advice we can get on this. I think one of the great concerns and one of the complaints might be that there are laws out there now. To be specific, there is the law about having a light on your bicycle and the law about having a bell -- I am probably not using the right words -- and they are not being enforced now. That is going to be one of the criticisms we get. If we add the helmet, what would your response be to that?

Mr Jamieson: The rules are there, but what I am trying to point out is that when a young girl or a young fellow gets a new bike that mom and dad bought, we do not want our friend the policeman to be the heavy to tell him that bike is not fit to be on the road; we want it right when it comes from the manufacturer. As I say, the police have a lot of other jobs to do. I think from time to time they will speak to people about reflectors, lights, etc. If you are doing this thing, the section about a light on the front of the bike does not even have a candle power. It is a little bit limp at the start. Maybe it could be looked at too during your investigation into the Highway Traffic Act.

Mrs Cunningham: That is a good point. While we are looking at this we can probably look at parts of the regulations or parts of the legislation right now that need to be updated. That is a very good point. That is section 43 and that is why you had it printed for us. Would you say the same about section 57?

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Mr Daer: I do not think you were here when I was speaking about that.

Mrs Cunningham: No, I missed the first part. I am sorry.

Mr Daer: I had made the comment that right now there are a couple of decent bells out there, but there is stuff that is a lot cheaper. I think if you have been into a bicycle shop or even a hardware store, which generally sells them, or K mart or Zellers, if you look at the bicycle section, they have these little plastic things that are probably about $3.95 or something like that. A lot of those are coming through. About half a dozen squeaks and that pretty well does it; it does not work any more. The parents never replace that.

I would like to see some kinds of rules or regulations for a CSA-approved horn. If we are going to do it, let's make sure the manufacturer or somebody comes up with a horn that will last more than two or three weeks. There is no sense having a kid buy a bike with a horn on it and then the thing is gone a week or two weeks or a month after he gets it. If we are going to do it, let's do it right.

I will be honest with you. I enforce it, but I do not enforce it with a ticket. I just cannot bring myself to give a 10-year-old kid a ticket. We have tickets, but there are no fines on them. If I catch somebody doing something I really think is out of the ordinary, if they are not riding properly, I do one of two things: I take the bicycle and take him home, or I give him a ticket and he has to bring it back with his parents' signatures. There is no fine stated on that. It is just something we have done ourselves.

Mrs Cunningham: Within your own department.

Mr Daer: Yes. It is something the chief has come up with. You very well know now that anybody under the age of 15 we have to take to youthful offenders court, and our court goes to Goderich, which is 35 miles away. It is just too costly for us to take a kid over to Goderich for youthful offenders court because he failed to stop at a stop sign type of thing, so we have designed our own punishment. Whether it is right or wrong I do not know, but so far we are getting away with it.

Mrs Cunningham: But police forces do sit down from time to time to try to decide how they will implement certain pieces of legislation. Is that the norm?

Mr Daer: I would not say other police forces. The norm is in the Highway Traffic Act. A bicycle is no different than a car. The kid can receive a $78.75 ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign. That is the fine for not stopping at a stop sign, whether you are a motorist or a bicyclist.

Mrs Cunningham: I think one of the recommendations the government got from its bicycle safety committee -- I may be wrong, but we can be corrected here -- is that the fine for not having the light be increased to $78 as well, to make it consistent. It seems to me that was one of the recommendations. From your point of view, I do not think that for a young child that would be appropriate, but perhaps you could send them away and make them get the proper light.

Mr Daer: Yes. I had made the comment, I guess before you came in, that I would like to see -- maybe it is a double standard -- two sets of fines, one for 16 and over and one for under 16, and a $10 first-offence fine for any one of our bicycle violations, whether it be a stop sign violation, riding at night without a light or what have you. The 16-and-overs have already had all the bicycle safety stuff and they know the rules of the road and one thing and another, so hit them harder. Maybe make it $53 instead of $78. It is hurting, but it is maybe not going to hurt as much as it would the car driver. Obviously, it is a little more serious for a car driver to run a stop sign than a bicyclist.

Mrs Cunningham: I have been quoting the legislation from Howard county, Maryland, where they have legislation which goes so far -- I wanted to tell you this -- that "a first-offence violation of any of the provisions of this subtitle" -- I will not go into this, but it is $25 to $50, and the second offence is $50 to $100. That is the law for everybody. But it says that "the court may waive any fine" for which a person found guilty would be liable if between the date of the violation and the court appearance that person purchases a helmet.

What would that mean to you? Does that mean somebody is already given the ticket and then they get a court appearance? That would still be too expensive from your point of view, would it not? Will you tell me what you think about that?

Mr Daer: I like that idea because you go right back to what some of the departments ran a few years ago. If I am not mistaken, I think it was shortly after it was mandatory to have a seatbelt. They were issued the ticket, but then they had to attend a film session. If they attended the film session, the ticket was cancelled, but if they failed to show up, the ticket went through and they paid the fine.

Mrs Cunningham: So there have been precedents even in Ontario law for these commonsense solutions?

Mr Daer: Yes.

Mrs Cunningham: In this instance, I think there are probably two things. Perhaps maybe the person did not know about it and so did not buy a helmet, or perhaps he did not have the money. I do not know.

Mr Daer: There are times right now when maybe the parents would say: "We haven't got $15 or $20 to spend on a helmet. We need it for food." Right at the present time, that is possible. I still come back and say that the fine is there for now, but when you send out all the material and the new brochure stating what, under the new act, the sections and fines are going to be, you stipulate that there is a six-month leniency period.

Mrs Cunningham: Yes. We were thinking of maybe even longer than that.

Mr Daer: We are fortunate in Wingham because we have a radio and a TV station we can utilize to get this message across. Some of the other areas probably have too, but there will be a lot of small departments that maybe do not have that luxury.

Coming back to government programs generally, such as the seatbelt or the RIDE campaign, they are always sending out posters. You can get every department equipped with a few posters to put around town and in the schools where the kids have to see it. I think most departments have some type of safety program. I do not know whether some of them are quite as industrious at it as our department is, but that comes back through the chief. That is something he wants, so we are probably a little more active than some of the departments. But it would not be hard to get the message across.

Mrs Cunningham: Also in Maryland, they talk about children under the age of seven. When they see a child under the age of seven in violation of the law, they say that "the member" -- that would be yourself -- "will make immediate notification to a parent and inform him of the unsafe circumstances." Then they give them a flyer they have to read. It seems to me that the warnings will be given to the parents of first and second violators of this law -- the children under seven -- in the form of a letter. It seems there is a lot of public education for young children in the implementation of this legislation in Maryland. We are looking for sensible ways to implement it. What do you think about that?

Mr Daer: You do not want to punish the young kids because you are not going to achieve anything. You have to get the message across to them without coming down and what I want to call "playing a heavy" on them. Get them convinced to wear them. I personally think that can be done if we concentrate on the younger group. Make the law mandatory for 16 and over, but I think, as I reiterated earlier, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. I would concentrate on the young people and get them convinced to wear it. By the time they become 16, they do it automatically.

Mrs Cunningham: What are we going to say when some of your colleagues come before the committee and say: "We are too busy now. We can't enforce the laws we've got"? What are we going to say to them?

Mr Daer: You cannot enforce it if you do not have a law to start with. If it is there, it would be enforced, although maybe not to the degree it should be. I also know there is a provision in the Highway Traffic Act that says if you are $78.75 for not signing your driver's licence in ink -- I know some police officers have time to lay a ticket for that one, and I will not tell you what my feelings on that one are. If the law is there, it can be used.

Mrs Cunningham: You sound like a terribly sensible person. You must be very much appreciated in your community.

Mr Waters: Mrs Cunningham covered most of what I was going to ask.

Mrs Cunningham: You have your typical question.

Mr Waters: You mean I have to remember on Monday?

One of the things I would like to get into is what Mrs Cunningham was saying about the type of ticket and the things you could do with that. As you were already saying, you could have a negative effect or a positive one from a ticket. What you have been doing has a positive effect. If you were to have the discretion, maybe, of whether you ticketed a child or said to him, "Upon the purchase of a helmet" -- or a light; I do not see why it has to end with a helmet -- "there is no ticket" -- I would not mind going into that a bit more. I never thought of it, but people now, adults, are spending $3,000 for a bicycle that does not meet the safety standards. This is a ridiculous situation to be in, but that is what we are in here in this province. I would not mind some more conversation on that for a moment.

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Mr Daer: It all depends on whether you are going to bring out legislation that ensures a bicycle will be equipped from the start with a light for the purpose of riding at night or are going to leave it up to the purchaser to decide whether he is going to put a light on it or not. If you are going to force a light to be put on by the manufacturer, that eliminates that problem.

My problem is not with the light. I tell you right now that it would be nice for you to come up with some law that forces it on. We have a lot of kids not only in Wingham, but I imagine every one of you has kids who ride bicycles at night without lights, and as parents you likely see them all the time. I am more concerned that there are reflectors and a bell and the horn type of thing. It is not an offence to ride your bicycle without a light if you do not ride it at night. It is only if you are on the road at night that you require a light; then the offence takes place. A lot of our younger kids ride them in the daytime.

Mr Waters: Maybe this is the question Mrs Cunningham would like me to talk about, the children. Actually, my children do not ride bikes. I do not even know where their bikes are any more. I am somewhat older. My children are grown up, but I do recall going through the era when they made me quit smoking and made me wear my seatbelt. Whether we like it or not, the best way to train adults, sometimes, is through their children. I would not mind some comments on your feelings towards the education system and the role it could play here, because the teachers, through talking to our children, forced us to wear our seatbelts and to quit smoking, in masses, 10 to 15 years ago. I think our children could also play a key role in this.

Mr Daer: We already have a bit of legwork started on that. I do not know whether you were here or not, but Petro-Canada already has a video called RITE Riders out where they have some kids going over the rules of the road. They are all wearing helmets. They are all using arm signals. I have another video where they are doing everything wrong. It is funny because there are 52 offences in about a two-minute ride. I think it was on a street in Toronto.

You ought see the fun when you watch these kids trying to guess the number of offences. These guys are all over the place. They are just doing everything wrong. Those things are out there. You could always keep coming back with the videos because that is the greatest thing for us to teach in school. I can get more out of putting a video on and then stopping it and letting them -- it is a stop-and-go session. I can get more out of a video than just standing up there and putting something on the bulletin board or giving them a piece of paper, because they will pay attention to it. Their brains are geared to watching movies.

Mr Waters: I would not mind your opinion as a police officer on this. In my community, we are policed through the OPP, and we have the OPP now riding bicycles in the summer.

Mr Daer: Do not ask me that one.

Mr Waters: I would like your opinion. How do you feel about police on bikes in the communities?

Mr Daer: Boy, talk about wanting to go on the hot seat.

Mr Jamieson: They tried to bring that back when I was on the police department.

Mr Daer: I have heard that in a couple of spots they brought them back. I think Grand Bend got them and, if I am not mistaken, maybe Sauble Beach for the summer. For the simple fact that you can get from point A to point B on a call when the traffic on a Sunday afternoon in the beach areas is just tremendous, they are probably great.

Mr Waters: That is right. This is not police on bicycles to police the cyclists.

Mr Daer: Just for traffic problems.

Mr Waters: Yes, they check out the bicycles as well as everything else.

Mr Daer: I know where you are coming from. That would be a great role model for a kid, to see a police officer wearing his bicycle helmet and having a bicycle fully equipped with lights and all that stuff. I spent a lot of years riding a bicycle, but oh brother, I hate the thought of having to go back to do it now.

Ms S. Murdock: They say once you have learned how --

Mr Daer: I can recall when they forced me to put on a helmet on the ice to referee. I bucked that. I said I would quit refereeing before I would wear a helmet, because I always played hockey, all through the years growing up and never had a helmet. But I eventually put a helmet on. Now they are coming out with visors. As of the fall of 1992, all referees have to have visors on for eye protection. I guess it is like anything else, if the law is there.

Mr Waters: As with hockey, I can remember as a child a nice friendly game of shinny with my uncles and my cousins. We were having a good time out on the road. One of us slipped and the other one was blinded because he got the butt end of a stick, and it was strictly an accident. If he had had to have a helmet or a visor it might have helped him.

The Chair: I want to thank you for your time here this afternoon. You have taken the effort and the energy to come in from Wingham. I know I speak on behalf of the whole committee when we commend the Optimist clubs across this province. I think all of us are familiar with the work they do with young people and adolescents in a variety of areas: drug abuse and young persons' safety.

When you report back, and I trust you will, to the Optimist Club of Wingham, Mr Jamieson, please tell them that the committee was extremely grateful for their interest and your attendance here, and your comments underscore my criticism of the $1000 a day consultants. We would be spending the money far better if we just had people like you come and talk to us rather than some of that high-priced help we get from the towers in downtown Toronto. We thank you and you prove it. You have made my argument for me today.

Constable Daer, once again we are pleased and impressed. Your obvious interest in young people and young persons' safety and welfare should be an example for a whole lot of others across the province. As Mr Jamieson will report to his own executive our regard, I hope you tell the chief of police back in Wingham --

Mr Daer: I cannot. He is away on vacation in Arizona.

The Chair: They always are, are they not?

Mr Jamieson: That is how I got him here.

The Chair: When he gets back, please tell your colleague that we were impressed with the fact that the Wingham police department takes time to participate in the types of programs you are involved in in the community, but also that it took the time to come here and talk to us today.

Mr Daer: If you get Mr Klopp to send a letter, it would do far more good than my trying to tell them.

The Chair: I think we had better.

Mrs Cunningham: We will send the Hansard.

The Chair: We had better do that then.

Mr Daer: It looks better.

Mr Jamieson: Next time you need a consultant, Ed and I will do it for half price.

The Chair: You have got it. Thank you gentlemen for your time and attention. Have a good trip back. Take care.

MINISTRY OF THE SOLICITOR GENERAL

The Chair: We now have the Deputy Solicitor General for Ontario, Donald Obonsawin. How are you, sir?

Mr Obonsawin: Fine, Mr Chairman, thank you.

The Chair: We have darn near a whole hour, so make yourself comfortable. As you well know, there is coffee and imported orange juice over there and soft drinks. If you want to preface with comments, please go ahead. There of course will be questions and dialogue. Otherwise we will just embark on a process of conversation.

Mr Obonsawin: Why do I not just, with that invitation, launch into some of our interests and concerns. It might provide another basis for discussion.

The Chair: Please identify your colleague for us.

Mr Obonsawin: I have Sergeant Bob Scott with me today.Sergeant Scott is with our traffic and marine branch of the OPP. In fact, chances are you will probably be speaking or dialoguing more with Sergeant Scott than with me during the rest of the hour. Sergeant Scott is a gentleman who has spent a lot of time thinking about this area, and on a technical basis certainly knows much more about the specifics than I do, so I will certainly be encouraging the sergeant to be an active member of this dialogue.

I just want to make two or three chief points, as I indicated to the Chair, that might serve as a basis for some discussion. There is no doubt, as I suppose we even reflected in the brief response we sent to the clerk, that the ministry is fully supportive of the principle that is being enunciated before us today, ie, the wearing of helmets for bicycling purposes. However, I think the key issue is one of implementation, how legislation like that would be implemented and what would be the elements of that implementation.

It is just not enough to bring in a piece of legislation of this type overnight and expect there would be a capacity to enforce it, and probably even a capacity for people to observe it, if it was done very quickly. We need to look at the best ways of doing it. In my brief review of the material in preparing to come here today and Sergeant Scott's more in-depth review of initiatives like this, we have all been impressed by the fact that education plays a great part, if not a greater part, in implementing the wearing of bicycle helmets than might even legislation.

I want to go over with the committee members the six phases I would see in implementing something like this, and again, it would be a basis for discussion. In the first phase, there needs to be some sort of research and development of helmet standards. I know I am not the first person to come here to speak to you and I am sure you have learned by now that there are no national standards for helmets, so consequently you need to have some time or capacity to do some research. A number of companies, for example, have identified their own in-house standards, but there never has been within the province or within the nation an acceptable or a government-recognized standard. Even the companies themselves, I am told, do not have standards for bicycle helmets for five years and younger, which I think would be a very key clientele that legislation like this would be looking to. So that is probably phase 1.

Phase 2 is that there need to be some criteria that would be given out to the helmet manufacturers so that they would be able to gear up to manufacture the objects. Then there needs to be a public education campaign, as I talked about earlier. I have divided that campaign in two or three phases itself.

First of all there needs to be a very general education campaign to the general public so that we can convince the general public of the need and benefit of wearing helmets. The next phase is a more concentrated education campaign, probably with some key target client groups we would like to see use the helmets, and that more concentrated campaign could be held in bicycle clubs and schools. It should be geared towards helmet selection, helmet use, the advantages of using helmets and also maintenance, because it is just not enough to get an old helmet and put it on; it can be more detrimental to your health than anything else. This phase would help to solidify the manufacturing standards and criteria the manufacturers would then be able to use to supply the helmets.

Then, and only after all that, do we feel there could be phased-in mandatory helmet legislation, because it is probably very difficult to expect that this could happen overnight. I am not an expert on what happened in Australia, but I understand from the limited reading I have done that in Australia they started education campaigns in 1983 and the legislation came into effect in 1990. So you see there was this gradual public acceptance of it to avoid some of the backlash that might arrive or occur.

Also, if we look at what happened in Maryland, there was a county there, and I cannot remember which one, where they had a grace period of about three months, which I still do not think is enough. Anyway, they also recognized that you could not start laying charges immediately and that you had to have some implementation phase.

Those are six of the points I want to make. Other items I am sure you have thought about are the resources that would be required. Some of you have heard me talk at other forums about resources, but certainly if there is going to be some research done, if the government wants to encourage research, if there are going to be educational campaigns, if we are going to decide there is going to be a very strict enforcement of this type of legislation, then there is a resource issue that will have to be addressed to make it realistic.

There are also a number of legal questions that need to be dealt with, as simple maybe as what is a "bicycle." I notice the other legislation dealt with the definition of a "bicycle." What do you do if you use the current Highway Traffic Act? What do you do with children under the age of 12 who currently cannot be convicted of a provincial offence? What do you do with exemptions for religious grounds of people of some cultures who might not be predisposed to wear a helmet? Those are some of the other issues I am sure people have already shared with you, but I just want to let you know that those are the types of things we think about that may explain our initial lack of enthusiasm for the proposal before us now.

Mr Waters: One of the things that has come up so many times in this discussion, and I guess you are the appropriate people to ask this of, is that everyone claims the cyclists are out there doing whatever they want and nobody ever touches them. I cannot argue with them. As I came here today I almost got run down by an adult, not a child -- most are adults on the sidewalk with their 10-speed or 20-speed or whatever they are these days -- roaring down full tilt because he wanted to beat the traffic.

When are the police going to start enforcing the law that exists now, because what they are saying is, why are we creating another law when the police refuse to enforce what is already there? I would like to know when and why they are not at this point in time?

Mr Obonsawin: This is an excellent occasion for me to introduce Bob Scott and let him do a bit of talking now.

Mr Scott: I do not have an honest answer for you. That is not to suggest the answer I am going to give you is dishonest, but you enforce what you can as you can. I suppose if someone wants to come along and say, "For the next three months you will do nothing but bicycle enforcement," then obviously you would see an increase in enforcement. I do not have an answer for you.

Mr Waters: In the instance today, there happened to be a cruiser sitting right there. This individual is on the sidewalk beside the cruiser. He looks at him and sits there. He was not going anywhere, and that is the attitude. Police seem to have an attitude of, "Oh, well," almost as if these people are outside the law.

They run red lights constantly. They virtually use the pedestrians as -- if it was horses, you would call it barrel racing. "This is an obstacle course and let's see how fast we can go through it." Even when the police are there -- I could see it if they were on a call or something like that; they have priorities and we do not know where they are going or why. But I see it time and time again, and I once again state that it is adults, not children who are breaking these laws. Why are they not charged the same as a person on a motorcycle or in a car?

If a person on a motorcycle ran a red light or drove down a sidewalk and that officer was there, he would charge the person. Because it is a bicycle, they seem to feel these people are somehow exempted. It is an attitude that I think we have within our police forces, and how do we answer the people who come before us?

Mr Scott: The frustration you feel is probably the same frustration I feel when I drive down Highway 401 in a blue and gold and I am travelling at 110 or 120 kilometres per hour and I have the majority of traffic going past me. At work, where do I start? I am not suggesting it is the same situation, but there is a frustration and I really do not know how you deal with that. I do not have an answer for you.

Mr Waters: I do not know how long I have, so cut me off whenever you feel free, but not too soon.

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The Chair: You can have as long as you want. It all depends whether you want to let Ms Murdock ask some questions too.

Mr Waters: Anything for Ms Murdock. I will try to sneak a quick one in first. When I read this I had mixed feelings about your letter because your letter has mixed feelings in it. One minute it says yes; the next minute it says no. I wondered if we could go into the yes and no.

I think what we are after here is some direction. We are not saying that by next April we want to have this law in place. We want to give everybody some lead time. I am wondering about the complete flip-flop between the two paragraphs, if you would go into that a bit.

Mr Obonsawin: First of all, what I had to respond to, from my perspective, was the draft bill that had been tabled and was relatively short and concise in its own way. We simply wanted to make two points there.

One was that as I said earlier in my opening statement we definitely do support a program that would encourage, either through enforcement or education, ultimately enforcement, the wearing of bicycle helmets. We cannot argue with that. We needed to make a strong statement, maybe too strong, about the fact that in light of all the other pressures that are on the government at the current time -- certainly on ourselves -- there had to be a recognition of the resources, a recognition of the educational campaign, a recognition that if all these things are going to happen -- because again the draft bill is not very specific with respect to a time frame -- there had to be a phased-in approach or there had to be a number of elements to this initiative that would take time.

Mr Waters: I was hoping you were going to say "more officers," because I am still in need of those nine I asked you for.

Ms S. Murdock: He always has to get his dig in.

Mr Waters: That is okay. I will get my dig in in Muskoka. I will turn it over to Ms Murdock.

Ms S. Murdock: I have two areas I want to explore with you. One is, and I have mentioned this before although obviously you would have not heard about it, that when I was growing up bicycle safety was a big issue in the elementary school system. It was long before regional government ever came into play. We had a police officer, Sergeant Archie Stewart, who was designated -- I am sure, Don, you will remember it because you are from Sudbury -- to do nothing but go to schools. I know that the OPP in Sudbury has community liaison officers but they are not designated just for schools. Dennis Tappenden there -- he is part-time now -- includes schools in his capacity of community liaison officer, but he is not designated to do that.

I know it is a resource allocation issue again, but in truth, with the statistics we have been hearing throughout the hearings at this committee on bicycle accidents and the cost to the medical system in this province just on bicycle accidents alone, and in particular head injuries, it would be worth it in the long run to designate within every office in the OPP -- I realize that you do not have control over the others specifically -- a school community officer strictly designated to the elementary school system. I am wondering if you have given any thought to that. That is my first question.

The second question is, could you live with a phase-in period, in terms of research and development and criteria to helmet manufacturers, say, of six months or along that line, with public education obviously going hand in glove with that for a longer period of time, with the legislation coming into effect where it would be enforceable anywhere from 15 months to 18 months later from date of passage?

I will let you answer both of those.

Mr Obonsawin: Starting with the second question first, a phase-in period of, let's say, six months with respect to developing the criteria and all that, to be honest with you, I do not know. I will let Bob speak in a few moments. We know so little about where the manufacturing sector is right now with respect to developing standards and how prepared it is --

Ms S. Murdock: If I might interrupt, we do have Canadian Standards Association standards in this country right now for helmets, as we have been told. I would suggest that your staff get their hands on the Hansards of these committee hearings and the presentations that have been made by some very educated, well-informed groups.

Mr Obonsawin: We know we have CSA, Snell and American National Standards Institite standards, I believe, but those are not standards that have been recognized, to my knowledge -- I may be wrong -- by the government authorities that would need to recognize those. They are manufacturing standards or industry standards, I guess you would refer to them. I am not quite sure, and I really do not know, to what extent we could use them. But you are right that there are at least three standards out there. Which one would we use? Would we use CSA? Would we use Snell? Would we use ANSI? Someone would have to decide that.

We also know, however, that we do not have standards for below five years of age. That may not be one of the main client groups that is targeted, but I think it eventually will be an important client group.

I will not even attempt to answer the question as to whether six or seven months is adequate, because I think it will depend where the industry is at, and I have no sense. Maybe Bob does.

With respect to a public information campaign lasting anywhere from 12 to 18 months, I am sure that period would be better than nothing. When we were informally talking about an education campaign around our table, we were thinking of three or four years rather than one or one and a half years. If you look at Australia, they have been doing it since 1983, which may be too long.

Ms S. Murdock: That is too long.

Mr Obonsawin: I guess a lot of it also would depend on the intensity of that campaign. I think you have to have the co-operation, let's say, of the bicycling community, and of the local community. An important element of our philosophy is that when we do, if we ever do, get involved in helmet legislation this way, which has a very important educational campaign component to it, it really has to be a campaign developed with a number of partnerships because it is not just enough for a ministry or a level of government to say, "This is what it's going to be." You really have to work with a number of the communities that are closer to the bicycling community -- the schools, for example -- to get them on board, and maybe a lot of time can be saved there.

Ms S. Murdock: Actually, with the interministerial grouping I have already thought of the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of the Solicitor General and the Ministry of Transportation. There are all kinds.

Mr Obonsawin: We have to go beyond that.

Ms S. Murdock: All of them can chip in.

Mr Obonsawin: Yes, that is right. There certainly would be a lot of partnerships within the government and within the ministries. One of our basic philosophies in the OPP, but also now in the municipal policing area, is community policing. It is involving the community and the local members in developing whatever campaign, especially on the preventive side. I would see this as being very important.

With respect to dedicating an officer to the schools, we are touching on the issue of resources. I am not denying it is a good idea. Over the past few years in the OPP, we have probably been rededicating the dedicated officers who are involved in the schools to the drug prevention program. We have developed a series of curricula there. To do something very specifically oriented towards bicycling and wearing of helmets would require updating the information that might have been there before, but it would be a resource issue.

Ms S. Murdock: Nothing has changed since the Archie Stewart days.

Mr Obonsawin: Maybe not. Maybe we could just borrow Archie's slides. I think it has got a little more complicated, especially if it would be done in tandem with a piece of legislation that was going to be implemented, so that people would understand that. It is not just a question of telling them they have to wear a helmet, but also what type of helmet. That is why the education campaign has to be geared with the research and standards the industry will have to develop.

The other thing is, could the industry gear up in a 15- or 18-month period to manufacture? Maybe so, but we have to consult with them. Is that enough lead time for them after they have done their research to manufacture the numbers of helmets that might be required?

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Mrs Fawcett: I was interested when you were talking about the standards. Does the ministry not have a specific idea right now of what standards it would follow?

Mr Obonsawin: We have our own standards. Our police officers who are driving bicycles wear helmets and we have developed our own standards.

Mrs Fawcett: Do you feel those are adequate?

Mr Obonsawin: I will pass that on to Bob.

Mr Scott: We have identified, within the OPP for our officers who ride bicycles, a standard --

Mrs Fawcett: To me they would or should be the top standards.

Mr Scott: -- but those are standards designed for adults and I do not know if those standards would suit the children and so on. There is a cost attached to that standard and I am not sure if the average family is going to be able to afford three or four helmets at $80 or $100 apiece. Who puts a price on safety --

Mrs Fawcett: Exactly.

Mr Scott: -- but who can afford that, or do they just stop riding bicycles?

Mrs Fawcett: It would certainly be an excellent place to start.

Mr Scott: Forcing everybody point-blank to start wearing helmets may go against encouraging people to use bicycles over other means of transportation.

Mrs Fawcett: I do not mean to come in with a heavy hand, but to me it would be an excellent place to start.

Mr Scott: My understanding is that there are various standards within the industry, but I am not sure the government has recognized the standard it is prepared to support.

Mrs Fawcett: Has anyone ever done a comparison, let's say, of what you use as standards and the CSA or any of those others?

Mr Scott: Our policy and planning branch did a fair amount of research when we identified ours, but I do not know enough about that research to answer your question.

Mr Miclash: I would like to say this is an issue that has actually gained a lot of recognition throughout the north, and I think the most common question I hear is cost. "What is this going to cost for me to put my four kids into helmets?" It can all be related to safety but I am sure these helmets are probably good for a good number of years, and I really have not been able to give them an answer in terms of when they have asked about cost. You are saying $60 to $100. Is this what you are finding for CSA-approved?

Mr Scott: The three helmets I am aware of that we were prepared to accept I think ranged between $70 and some $80, and I know they looked at helmets that were in the $150 range. As far as cost, well, I think back to the child restraints and the requirement for people suddenly to put their hands on a child restraint or a child seat. Not enough people really understood how to select a proper child seat, and I am not sure everybody was getting a good child seat. I do not know.

Mr Miclash: Dianne, how do you answer that question in terms of cost?

Mrs Cunningham: I first of all give the answers of the experts who came before the committee. The expert we have given the most credibility to is a Mr Coffman of the Bicycle Helmets Standards Committee. He has been involved in the development and production of hockey helmets during all that discussion and ultimately decision-making and now he is involved with bicycle helmets, so he was an extremely credible witness. To really get the answer you will have to read the Hansards because I am only paraphrasing him. He appeared on November 27. Were you able to get hold of that and read it? I would suggest strongly that you do, because he certainly is an expert.

He advised the committee that in a period of a year or two, and certainly within the year, American companies could produce and sell in Ontario probably as many helmets as we would need to phase in legislation. We in this committee has not got together on this, but all of us are asking the same kinds of questions. The phase-in is much longer than what you could even believe. We are talking probably two years. We are trying to take the advice of witnesses. We knew we could probably, for the helmet and the cost, do it in a year if that is all we cared about, but that it is not all we care about. We care about the other issue you have raised, and that is public education.

He told us that when we really get the market, if we give enough lead time we can probably get these manufactured in Ontario by Canadian companies, and that is what we are trying to do because that is our goal. The cost would be probably around $25 to $30. I think I am being very fair. I think he actually said that with the coupons provided you could get them for $17.95.

I know that when you go into the stores -- obviously I am not going to come to this committee without having done my homework. Over the last year or so I have bought helmets from time to time. I am not going to mention the names of stores, but if you are organized you can go to your paediatrician or any hospital or trauma unit and get a little form to fill in and send away and get a helmet for $20 to $30. If you want Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, you pay $5 more for the stickers. However, if you buy the stickers in the local store, it is cheaper.

But you can now, if you are organized, get yourself a helmet for between $20 and $30. If you just walk into one of the popular sporting goods stores, you can pick yourself up a helmet for -- I am now talking of children over the age of five. I agree with you that even though they sell them for under-fives, they are not approved to what this committee has been advised would be useful. You can buy them for anywhere from $32 or $33 in a good sporting goods store. When I chose the helmets for our family, because of the salesmanship of the person, as I was advised by Mr Coffman at the committee, they were able to sell me helmets for $59.95. But I have bought $35 helmets and I have bought $27 helmets. That is the range I buy.

Interestingly enough, I asked the police cyclists in Victoria, British Columbia, because I happened to be there this year. There are two things in Victoria that are really in: bicycle helmets and braces on your teeth. The braces were very expensive and they also had to be coloured. The police department there was paying $59 for its helmets. But I was even in a store where if you go in and buy them for a school, they will give you a tremendous discount in any sporting goods store. They will buy them right from the supplier. In London, I am aware of a class that went in recently and got $59 helmets for $35 because it went in and bought them in bulk.

I think the marketplace is trying to respond to the needs, and obviously bike helmet sales are up. If you phone around this Christmas, you will find that a lot of stores do not have them. I do not know whether it has been this committee having these public hearings. I would like to think it is the home and school associations, the Kiwanis clubs and the safety committees throughout the province that have done a wonderful job.

Anyway, that was a long answer but it was not simply the price we should look at. It is a good thing Kormos is not here. He would have had me by now.

Mr Scott: I was not aware you could get a good-quality helmet that would do the job for that price. If that is available, that is a bonus. I agree with what you are saying, that there seems to be an increase in the number of people who are wearing helmets, even people I see in my own neighbourhood. Part of the job we are trying to accomplish here, to ensure there is phase-in period, is already starting to happen. I suspect the child restraint and the understanding of the value of that goes right along with the helmet.

Mrs Cunningham: What do you mean "child restraint"?

Mr Scott: People are becoming more aware of safety for their children in terms of motor vehicles. My feeling is that they appreciate child restraint and have taken that one step further as well, into their helmets.

Mrs Cunningham: Interestingly enough, I think this committee, through its questions, has not really been promoting bicycles for kids under five, so it does not talk a lot about that and has given no discussion to seat carriers. Without my saying anything, most of the members of this committee just do not think they are safe. We are looking towards what we believe is safe and trying to promote that.

The helmet decision by Consumer and Corporate Affairs Canada to make a new Canadian standard for bicycle helmets voluntary rather than mandatory is probably what you are talking about when you say we do not have the mandatory requirement. In spite of that, given what we have heard before the committee, I do not think that is particularly important at all. This province is looking to be the leader, and if we have to tell the federal government what to do, that is exactly what we would like to be able to do.

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In this instance, the bicycle helmets sold in Canada meet at least one of the three existing standards: the Canadian Standards Association, the Snel Memorial Foundation or the American National Standards Institute. As you know, these helmets are tested in three different ways. They are tested with a drop test, where the CSA is the best; they are tested in impact absorption, where the jury is out as to which is the best, and they are tested on retention systems, where the CSA is the best, given the research that has been done. If we say CSA on at least two out of three, we are probably ahead of the game.

What do we want in the way of bicycle helmets? The research on helmets will go on for ever. Five years ago I would not have had the confidence I have now, and 10 years ago not at all. Look at the way hockey helmets have progressed. I was on a school board where we had to change all the hockey helmets twice in the time I was on that board because new helmets came out. I think we are facing the same thing here. I would like you to respond to the readiness of helmets.

Mr Scott: I do not know enough about the research. We may very well have a helmet that meets what we would like to see. If that is the case, then the research period is shortened to the time it takes to state that this is what we are going to accept.

Mrs Cunningham: My view is that the government ought to take a deep breath and a sigh of relief on that one, because if I had to put the taxpayers' money into that research, I would not do it. The private sector is doing it. They are in competition. We have free ways of moving in on that. What we are concerned about is the education. We think a lot of good education has been going on for 10 years. By the way, when I say "we," it is because the committee has been told this. We agree we have to zero in on -- on phase 1, we say you should not worry.

Mr Obonsawin: Could we just talk about that phase 1?

Mrs Cunningham: I am talking about your phase 1.

The Vice-Chair: Would you like to respond to phase 1, that we should not worry? Is that what you are saying?

Mr Obonsawin: I just want to ask a question about it.

Mrs Cunningham: I think we agree pretty well. There are none up to five years old. We agree with that.

Mr Obonsawin: I was just wondering with respect to the standards. You are comfortable that the industry has a standard, so what would government be saying? Would government be saying that we go with CSA standards?

Mrs Cunningham: All three. It is the person's choice. If we could ever get our own Ontario standards and ask a manufacturer to meet them, a combination of that, in the next couple of years that we are phasing it in, all the more power to industry in Ontario. I think there is room. I think if we had to do it tomorrow, we would have that. The criteria to the manufacturer would maybe be part of a committee that might come out of this. I hate committees, by the way, but somebody recommended it.

Mr Obonsawin: A task force.

Mrs Cunningham: We agree with the public education part. I think the committee will probably be spending a lot of time on that. The phase-in we agree with. I think your letter was premature.

Mr Obonsawin: Rightly or wrongly, the only information I had to go on was the draft legislation. It was relatively short in itself.

Mrs Cunningham: On that one point, when we got the letter I was personally disappointed. I think we should all wait until the experts come before the committee before we make up our minds. Even in presenting this bill I was not convinced that I could make a strong case for the government. Until we get together, I still have some questions I cannot answer. But I will tell you that the public coming before this committee has been extremely strong. They have been the ones who have persuaded us to look seriously. I thank you for your advice today.

Mr Obonsawin: What I would like the committee to remember, if the committee decides to proceed and the bill is passed, is that these things do have to happen, that there have to be some resources dedicated to implementing this. This cannot become another flash in the pan, as we have seen happen with a lot of these initiatives in the past, where for the first year or two there is very high public visibility, and there seems to be public support for it and the system is somewhat geared up to support it, but then two, three, four or five years later it all fizzles out. That is our main concern. Our concern is that it not be something that is done very quickly where, be it through enforcement or education, the campaign is not adequately supported, so it literally becomes unenforceable. That was our concern. Simply to say, "Have something in a piece of legislation which says helmets must be worn," is very difficult to enforce.

Mrs Cunningham: I personally share your concern on that. That is why we have taken the approach we have. I will tell you that if children and adults do not wear these helmets just because we pass a law, the whole thing has been a wasted exercise and what I do not believe in: a political statement. I think this committee has been particularly non-partisan. We want to see something happen and that is why we are happy to have your good advice.

The Vice-Chair: I am going to take another shot, being the Chair. We have time. One of the things I would like to see come from not only your ministry but the ministry I represent as well -- you want to ask a question too, George? Okay, I am going to sneak mine in first -- is some assistance with the regs and the policies we are going to have to work with. When we change the act, we will be changing one word if we go ahead with this. But as we all know there are a lot of things that go along with that change of one word, the fact that -- I think you mentioned it -- children under 12 are exempted now.

Mrs Cunningham: The definition of a "bicycle."

The Vice-Chair: What is the definition of a "bicycle?" I hope the ministries would be able to assist us with that type of thing and I would not mind some comment on it. Is that what you mean by the fact you are going to need time before it is enacted?

Mr Obonsawin: There are different times we need. We need preparatory time to ensure the appropriate campaigns, standards, legislation and all the regulations are developed, which means it also has to be deemed to be a government priority. If I have only two people -- speaking very parochially now as a ministry -- and the two people in the policy shop are supposed to be gearing up and working on something very specific because that is what I understand to be the government's priority right now, it is very difficult for me to say to some other forum within the government that I cannot deliver on this because we have to be working on that.

That is the additional type of time I need. It is also, I suppose, the message I need to get from the government, that this is somewhere it does want relatively limited resources to be spent on over the next two months, three months, four months, six months, a year, depending on how long it is going to take for us to implement this. That is part of the resources I was speaking about.

I was also speaking about the implementation resources. Once we do all this stuff internally, the associations, clubs, schools or police services, whatever, are going to have to identify some resources like the Archies of the world to do this type of thing. The government can come back and say, "We expect all municipal police forces to have a dedicated officer who is going to work in the schools." The government will again be criticized for dumping something else on municipalities without providing additional resources. That is the other type of resources I am also talking about. You want to make sure the program does not lose support because of some of the costing elements that become sources of friction between a provincial government and another level of government, be it a school board, a municipal government or another jurisdiction.

Mr Dadamo: Among the many presenters to this committee was a Mark Buckner, a member of the Windsor Bicycling Committee. I was not here when he was. I was in Windsor when he was here. He wrote a guest column in the Windsor Star on the weekend and I brought it to the attention of Mrs Cunningham. She brought it back to my attention. I am just trying to solicit a response from authority, if you will. I want to read a couple of paragraphs. He says:

"The police do very little to enforce the existing bicycle laws, lacking both the resources and the will. If, for example, they were to enforce the law requiring lights on bikes, it could go a long way toward preventing the 19% of bike accidents that happen in the dark.

"Police officers have indicated they do not think that a helmet law will be or can be properly enforced. Police budgets are already strained by rising crime rates and the huge Ontario deficit."

I am trying to solicit from Sergeant Scott if he knows what the mood of authority is out there. If we were to legislate in the next couple of years, what are the officers saying at this point?

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Mr Scott: I do not know what they are saying. I have some perceptions that have followed other things that could follow into this situation. You have a person who has a child killed in a motor vehicle accident and then there is a perception that the officer is reluctant to charge the parent with failing to ensure the child was properly secured. I see the same mentality, either voluntary or involuntary, coming into play with bicycles in the enforcement we have experienced in the past and the enforcement you might see in the future.

Mr Dadamo: If police officers in cities and the OPP that covers the rural parts of the province are not out there actively enforcing, what good is the legislation? Do they have the time? Do they have the will to want to do this?

Mr Scott: You take it like any other situation. It becomes a piece of legislation, and if the officer in his mind feels it is an important thing, he as an individual or she as an individual may enforce it, but unless there is some push or support overall, some incentive to follow along that way, you probably are not going to see the individual enforcement, ie, the tendency for one officer to enforce seatbelt legislation and the next officer not to wear his own seatbelt. There is an education component there. When you understand the value of it, then you start to understand the need to enforce it.

Mr Dadamo: Do you agree that it would obviously take a little bit of time for the public to consume the education process?

Mr Scott: Education of the public, but education of the enforcement community as well to the value of helmets and the need to wear them.

Mr Obonsawin: If I could also comment, because it is a good question, it is very difficult for one person to feel that he or she can speak on behalf of the policing community, but certainly as I have gone around and spoken to the representatives of the various police services in this province, they are telling me that they are now looking at what services they are going to stop doing rather than the new services they are going to be doing. All of them are getting overwhelmed by the increase in crime, the drugs, the guns, with the B and Es, the break and enterings. It is causing strain on their preventive type of programs. It means that at a certain point in time, even though there may have been an officer sitting in his car while an infraction was occurring, he may just have been watching time go by or he may have been filling in a report on something else or he may have been working on another incident.

There is going to have to be some very special incentive, I think, for enforcement. I do not want to belabour the fact that it is going to have to be tied into an educational campaign. We talk a lot about that. But if we are strictly hoping to get adherence through enforcement, as we said earlier, it may happen for six months or eight months and then it may follow the fate of the broken headlight that we all know is an offence but we all see them running around now. We know the Ontario population does not wear seatbelts as often as they should and there is an enforcement crunch with respect to a number of our laws. We will have to ensure that we do something different in this piece of legislation.

Mr Dadamo: I was not expecting you to answer for all police enforcement. I was just trying to solicit what maybe a personal response would be, or what you are hearing.

Mr Obonsawin: What I am hearing is police coming to me and saying: "What do you want us to do? Do you want us to do these little things" -- I do not want to argue if this is a little thing -- "or do you want us to bust some of these crime waves that are all around us, either in cigarette smuggling or break and entering?"

This goes back again to Bob's point about also needing to sensitize the police services to the importance of this as a public safety issue. But when the men and the women are out there on the street, their attention is being sought by a number of issues, and I would think that if the development of this law is not done appropriately, it would compete with a number of others and might not receive the attention I think this committee would want it to receive.

Ms S. Murdock: Just a quick comment: The group that appeared before you was from the town of Wingham, a police constable from the town and the president of the Optimist club. It has a bicycle safety program going.

Mr Obonsawin: They do have one?

Ms S. Murdock: Yes. They give tickets to the kids on bicycles for doing the right things for a period of a week, with contests and so on and so forth. If you are doing something right you get a ticket instead of if you are doing something wrong. The more tickets you get, obviously the better off you are and so on. That kind of perception, that kind of change of thinking, and making the police officer a friend rather than someone to be afraid of, I think is really an important concept that we have to foster. That is just a comment, not a question.

Mr Obonsawin: It is part of the community philosophy I think you would see in the OPP. We are continuously trying to do that. Again, though, what is feasible in Wingham will be very different to what is feasible in Ottawa, Toronto or even Sudbury.

Ms S. Murdock: Yes.

Mr Scott: On this comment about the officer who was dedicated to going into schools and doing it full-time, we had a number of community officers, by a different name perhaps at the time, who went into schools and did safety campaigns and bike rodeos and so on. It becomes a priority thing as well. "I have other safety things or education things I should be presenting," so that program starts to slide back. If you are going to introduce that, either something else gives or the resources have to be increased.

Coming from Kincardine, I am familiar with Wingham and its campaign. It is nice to see. Enforcement, whether it is warning or a positive reinforcement or negative, is still enforcement.

Ms S. Murdock: I know when Dennis was in my classroom he used up every roll of my masking tape to make roads on my floor. I supplied all the tape.

The Chair: On that bit of nostalgia, we have to thank both these people for spending the time here this afternoon. We appreciate your attendance and trust we will be able to call upon you in the weeks to come should we require your input again.

ONTARIO FEDERATION OF HOME AND SCHOOL ASSOCIATIONS

The Chair: We are graced now with participation by the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations. Come on up, and note that there is coffee, some soft drinks and some orange juice over here on the side table for you. We want you to be reasonably comfortable here, notwithstanding that you are among so many politicians. We have a package of written material that is being given to each member and will form a part of the record. This will be identified as an exhibit in these hearings. Please identify yourselves with your name and whatever title might accompany you and then commence with your presentation. Try to leave us the second 15 minutes at least for questioning, because usually that is the far more productive part of the program.

Mrs McGuire: I appreciate your providing time for the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations to make a presentation to this committee. We feel this is an important issue for us and for the children and young people of Ontario.

I am Norma McGuire, president of the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations. On my right is Sandy Hill, past president of the Dalewood Home and School Association in Hamilton, and Marlene Gibson, also a past president of the Dalewood Home and School Association in Hamilton.

What I would like to do to start is give you a little bit of information about Home and School in Ontario, what we are and who we are. We were founded in 1916 in the city of Toronto. The Canadian Home and School and Parent-Teacher Federation, of which we are a member, was founded in 1895, so we have been around for a long while. We are a non-profit volunteer organization and we are financed mainly by the sale of memberships to parents and other people in the community who are interested in the wellbeing of children and support our objectives.

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We are located in all parts of the province. We act as a direct link between the home and the school and act to promote the educational, social and emotional wellbeing of children and young people. We research, study, evaluate and then present proposals that serve the best interests of the children. We bring together parents and educators to work co-operatively and collaboratively to achieve "The Best For Each Child."

We differ from other community organizations in that our structure is geared to all levels of government. The local association deals mainly with the local school. The local council deals with the local school board and municipality, a region with a regional board of the ministries, and the Ontario federation with the Ministry of Education predominantly, but also groups such as yourselves at the provincial level. Because we are connected to the Canadian Home and School and Parent-Teacher Federation, we have a link with the federal government and on issues such as this one we can take a bicycle helmet issue to our Canadian federation, which would then proceed to promote our ideas to Canadian government or other Canadian officials. That is where our strength lies, in being able to relate at all levels with the various government officials.

We have resolutions, and this is what happened with the bicycle helmet. A resolution came forth, prepared by the two people on my right, and I am going to turn it over to them now and let you hear how we function and how they have functioned to bring this issue to you today.

Mrs Hill: My name is Sandy Hill. As Norma has mentioned, I am a past president of the Dalewood Home and School Association. It is a pleasure for us to be here today, although a little nerve-wracking. Marlene and I are just moms. Norma is the president of Home and School, and we are just moms. I want you to know we are each the mother of three kids, so we have nine kids we will speak for as we sit here.

I will speak personally for a minute and tell you that when I started with Home and School, I wanted to have a personal link with the school to know what my kids were doing in school. I wanted to have access to volunteer at the school level. I wanted to get to know the staff and the teachers at the school. I really did not know it could one day lead to all this, but as I became more involved with Home and School, I realized that the pyramid worked so that you came from your local home and school association and you could work your way up to this sort of activity.

Today we represent the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations, which has more than 17,000 members in Ontario. There are about 50,000 members in Canada. As Norma has already mentioned, the motto is "The Best for Each Child," and the missions statement is,

"The Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations, a province-wide network of dedicated members, is committed to informed and proactive involvement in our homes, our schools and our communities to obtain `The Best for Each Child.'"

I guess that is really what brings us here today, to be proactively involved.

Resolutions work when an individual association or an individual member comes up with an idea he or she thinks is a good idea, and any association can put a resolution together. It goes from that particular association through councils and all the way up the ladder until it is eventually presented at the annual general meeting of the Home and School. Those recommendations can then be forwarded on to various interest groups, government agencies or ministries, so here we are today.

Resolutions can deal with all kinds of things, not just the safety of our children, but they have dealt with many issues throughout the years.

We believe that bicycle helmets are important and that there are two aspects of bicycle helmets we would like to speak to you about today. One is the legislation of bicycle helmets for bicycle riders and the other is the unshelving of CSA testing.

Mrs Gibson: I will give you a little background on how we got here today. In the spring of 1990 our home and school association had a parent education night. Dr Venturelli, who is a paediatrician at McMaster University Medical Centre, spoke to our parents group about accidents and injuries in the home and how to prevent them. One of the concerns he expressed was that there was a lack of bicycle helmet use within the community of Hamilton, that it was not just the children, but the parents were also not wearing helmets and they would be good role models.

A number of the parents in our community went out and bought bicycle helmets thinking: "Okay, we know how to be good parents. We can do this." They got themselves the helmet and they could not get their kids to wear it. No matter what they did, they did not want to wear it, or they would go around the block and it would be off and dangling from the handlebars. At that point we discussed it and decided that if the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations mass-purchased bicycle helmets, they would all be delivered on the same day, everybody would have his helmet at the same time and it would be the in-thing to do to wear your bicycle helmet.

We contacted a list of manufacturers we got from CSA that had CSA approved helmets. We thought it was important to have CSA approved helmets, because we wanted the highest standard available, and we did not know whether there would be any legal action brought against us if somebody should be hurt with the helmet we sold them. We went with CSA approved helmets and we contacted a lady named Cathy McQueen, who was from Sears in Hamilton and who was really excited about the project and told us that she could give us a good price and that they had CSA approved helmets available. This solved a couple of our problems: the good price -- she was going to sell them to us for under $25 -- and it was going to be all size levels, from an infant helmet right up to an adult helmet, so that families could buy into the concept.

We also had George Fraser who is from the Hamilton Cycling Association. He mentioned to the kids that the Hamilton Cycling Association insists that all the cyclists who race wear helmets and that trick riders wear helmets. He had a display of helmets right from old-fashioned web leather caps all the way up to the ultra-modern things and was showing them to the children.

Then we sent order forms home, and by the time this was all done, within our community we had sold 300 helmets. We were all delighted. The next day there were all these helmets on the street at the same time. Everybody wanted to wear his helmet. It was the in thing to do at that point.

The schools we were involved with were from K4 up to grade 8, so we were talking up to about 13- and 14-year-olds.

Mrs Hill: We are going to ping-pong back and forth.

Our brief urges that shelving of the mandatory CSA approved testing of bicycle helmets be lifted. Initially we had great difficulty in finding helmets that were CSA approved. We went to different kinds of stores, and actually Marlene originally bought a helmet that was not approved. She ended up taking it back and shopping through more stores to find one that was approved. We believe it is important because we have been told by everyone that the CSA testing is the best testing you can get. We do not believe people should go out and buy a helmet and then find out it does not provide the optimum protection.

Now that we all know about CSA testing, and we have all bought bicycle helmets, you might wonder why we are here. The reason we are here is this bicycle helmet worn by a Burlington rider. It is an approved helmet, and he was in a car accident. When you take off the decorative shell, I will show you why we believe bicycle helmets are really important. It does not take a lot of imagination to figure out what would have happened to him had he not been wearing a helmet.

I am the mother of a teenage son. Marlene is the mother of a teenage daughter. Even though our household is informed of the dangers of riding bicycles without a helmet -- Marlene and I have sold bicycle helmets and we have been involved in the campaign to promote the use of bicycle helmets -- my teenage son will not wear it. He will wear it till he gets around the corner but then it is off, because it is not cool. None of his friends wear them. It is not the in thing to do. No matter whether I like it or not, peer pressure at that age overrides parental pressure every time.

My son also uses his bike as his method of transportation. He is 14. He does not have keys to the car and he is not taking the bus and he is not walking, so that is his principal form of transportation. He knows the rules of the road, but he has not been tested like a driver has, so I do not know just exactly how careful he is going to be.

He sometimes travels at the speeds equivalent to cars, and in traffic jams and stuff he travels faster than cars. He is seeking his independence, so he truly believes that at 14 he is immortal so he does not need a helmet. It was cute, actually. Marlene's daughter said, "You mean if we have to wear bicycle helmets, it will be your fault," when we told them that we were coming here today.

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Mrs Cunningham: They are going to remember you said that.

Mrs Hill: Because the inference is, "If we have to wear them, it will be your fault." My kid is not about to disobey the law, but he is not going to listen to mom, bottom line.

We believe that the safety of our children at present is in question, and because our children are at risk, we decided to take this resolution to the annual general meeting of the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations, asking parents across the province to endorse the idea of legislating bike helmets. As we see it, the mandatory route is the route to go.

Copies of our resolution have been distributed to many organizations and agencies and we have received letters of endorsements from several agencies.

Mrs Gibson: We believe that the idea of wearing a bicycle helmet is one of those motherhood statements. Of course everybody agrees with it, and I do not think very many people would be at odds with the concept of wearing a bicycle helmet. What would be opposition to legislation? We thought long and hard, and we came up with what we think are six reasons, the first being cost. At present helmets are available for under $25, and I think the Ontario Medical Association's helmets were around that same price. If you compare that to the cost of a long-term disability on a family, the financial costs, the emotional costs, the physical costs, the disruption of family life, we think it is a real bargain.

Buying a helmet is like buying an insurance policy: You hope you never have to use it, but it is certainly worth it if you have it when you need it. In the past people complained about the cost of infant car seats. How would you get everybody to get a car seat? How would people be able to afford it? What would happen if you were too poor to be able to afford one? What happened was the service clubs and auto clubs put up a rental program, and schemes were devised in order to enable people who are financially disadvantaged to be able to afford these things.

We think that if you provide a phase-in time and include the bicycle helmets with the purchase of new bikes, eventually there will be enough bicycle helmets on the marketplace. There will even be second-hand helmets, like there are in the hockey associations.

We also think that with the increased demand put on manufacturers with legislation, the cost would become more competitive. I have heard it said: "If you just include a bicycle helmet with the purchase of a new bike, that would basically solve your problem. Eventually everybody would have one." But first of all we can tell you that our children will not wear it, even in spite of all they know, in spite of everything that has been said and done; they are still not going to wear a helmet.

The second thing is, how many of you have bought an article with a coupon in it, and the coupon says "$10 off"? You do not use that coupon if it does not directly impact on you. The bicycle helmet would be the same thing. There it is dangling on the handlebars, but if it is something that is not important to you, you are still not going to wear it.

Mrs Hill: People oppose bike legislation and say it would be an infringement of individual rights. We believe that same tune has been sung before, and we believe a precedent has been set with seatbelt legislation, motorcycle helmet legislation and infant car seat legislation, for example. These were legislated because of the safety aspect, and they were done in spite of complaints and protests from special interest groups, manufacturers and groups concerned about their individual rights.

Perhaps we can parallel motorcycles and bicycles for just a second. Like motorcycles, bicycles are now a viable means of transportation. Just the comparative costs of getting a set of wheels makes bikes a viable alternative. The recession has impacted on that, as have advertising for Participaction, ecology buffs, and the improved technology that makes bikes great. In downtown Toronto, parking is a problem. So we believe there is a parallel between bicycles and motorcycles, but unlike motorcyclists, bicyclists have no protection and they are at risk of severe head injuries. Due to government legislation, motorcyclists are no longer at the same risk, and with no present legislation, we believe that cyclists are at risk.

Mrs Gibson: We will cover the next two topics together. They are the impact on the bicycle industry and the impact --

The Chair: If I could interrupt here, let me explain what is happening.

Mrs Gibson: Why is everybody looking at the monitor?

The Chair: Why everybody is looking at the monitor is that a vote was called for 5:45 this afternoon. It was a stupid thing, because we are sitting till midnight and I do not know why it could not be called for 6:15 so it would not inconvenience people like you.

Mrs Gibson: Do you want to go and vote and come back?

The Chair: I do not know the answer.

Mrs Gibson: Go vote.

The Chair: What we are going to do is adjourn for 10 minutes.

Mrs Cunningham: Four minutes.

The Chair: We are going to adjourn for 10 minutes. And if Mr Dadamo or Mrs Cunningham would take you and get you passes into the gallery, at least you will see some of the strange things that happen here. The committee apologizes.

The committee recessed at 1748.

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The Chair: Once again, our apologies for the interruption, and thank you for bearing with us while we went through this very sort of rudimentary democratic procedure of voting. The results of the votes were probably no great surprise, but we went through the exercise in any event. Please carry on with your comments.

Mrs Gibson: I think I will go back to dealing with items 3 and 4 on page 6, the impact on the bicycle industry and impact on cycling. We felt there might be groups that would complain that it might impact on them. The bicycling industry might think the cost of the helmet could curtail sales and cycling clubs could protest that if people had to wear a helmet it might decrease the number of people who would be interested in involving themselves in that sport.

However, we like to compare it to the minor hockey association, which from within decided it was going to protect the heads of children and enforce hockey helmets. A child cannot play hockey in a minor hockey league association without a helmet on. They have to be CSA approved helmets as well.

At the time they were coming up with this plan, I am certain the opponents would have said minor hockey was going to decline and die, that nobody was going to be able to afford the helmet and nobody was going to play ever again. As you know and I know, now there are helmets protecting children and adults alike from serious head injuries. The sport has certainly not died. It is as popular as it was at any time and every socioeconomic group is playing hockey. We feel that bicycle helmet legislation would protect our children in the same way and that certainly it would not detract from the number of bikes sold or the number of people cycling.

In fact, it might encourage more people too. This summer I decided that now I had my helmet, I would ride my bike to work. I sought out the best path that would not cause me great danger. I picked a bunch of side streets. Without the helmet, I would never have done that because I was always petrified that somebody would open his truck door and I would go tumbling over the door or something like that. But I did, and I would not have at any other time.

Mrs Hill: When we were sitting at the back here, there were questions with regard to the difficulties with enforcement. We would like to touch on that. Opponents of seatbelt legislation protested that enforcement would be too difficult, and indeed there are still many within the province who have never buckled up and have never been fined. The safety issue has always been there with seatbelts. I never used a seatbelt until it became legislation. Then it was against the law and I believe that many people living in Ontario abide by the laws of the province, not because they have to but because it is the law. There will always be those people who say they are not going to do so.

We do not believe the fact that some people do not wear helmets and will not be caught is the important thing. We believe the positive impact of legislation is the important thing. We believe that more people will wear helmets because it is legislated, not because of the penalty that might be enforced. The punitive aspect of catching offenders and punishment, we think, is not the issue. We think it is a red herring. The other thing we think is that with the concept of community-based policing gaining momentum, enforcement can be combined with education. We think that education and enforcement go hand in hand.

Mrs Gibson: The sixth opposition could be the legislators themselves might feel that this could be unpopular legislation. I think that right now the government is not looking for any unpopular legislation.

The Chair: It does not have to look for it.

Mrs Gibson: They are not looking for an increased financial burden on the public. When we undertook this campaign in the first place, we were right in the throes of the recession and our Home and School received nothing but positive feedback from this project. People purchased the helmets. There was nothing mandatory. Nobody said you had to buy one. The only pressure might have been the peer pressure that kids wanted to be the same as other kids, but there was no pressure on anybody. It was just a service to the community that we were looking at. We did not receive one negative response. This is probably the best campaign we have ever put through for positive feedback from members of the community, members of the Home and School and teachers. Everybody was commenting about how wonderful this is.

At the annual general meeting of the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations -- this was at a conference; you go to the conference and you go to workshops and everything and then they have an annual general meeting, and at that time they present the resolutions and they are voted on and debated and all that -- there was very little in any negative comment at all. Everybody thought these were good resolutions, and they were passed readily. They went to the Canadian federation and they were again passed readily. Most of the groups we have sent letters off to have also passed them readily, even though people will say you have to look at accessibility of them and things like that. They still have all thought this was a good resolution. We believe this would be good legislation and would be well received by the people of Ontario.

On behalf of the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations we would like to thank you for giving us this opportunity to speak today. We would like to thank Dianne Cunningham, MPP, for bringing forward her private member's bill, An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act. We feel that this is an extremely important issue and that it could ultimately affect many lives in this province. This is an opportunity for us all to assist in the prevention of head injuries and the resultant impact on individuals, families and their friends. We would be delighted to answer any questions at this time.

The Chair: I should ask you to note that this is the second time Mrs Cunningham has had to bring this bill into the Legislature. Obviously it is a reflection of the regard people have for her that it has reached this stage, which is a rarity for a private member's bill, especially an opposition member's bill.

Ms S. Murdock: I must commend you on being very well organized and well prepared. I notice your resolution 9, 1991: "Be it resolved that the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations adopt the policy that all cyclists, regardless of age, and passengers transported in bicycle-mounted child carriers be legislated to wear bicycle helmets."

We have had a number of presenters before this committee who have recommended strongly against bicycle carriers on bicycles at all in that it changes the centre of gravity and really causes the bicycle to be more tipsy. I wonder if you have given any thought to that -- you must have when you made the resolution -- and why have you included it?

Mrs Gibson: I would never let one of my children sit in one of those rear-mounted carriers, but the fact of the matter is they are available and lots of people use them. If they are going to use them, I would rather have that child on the back wearing a helmet than not wearing a helmet and that is why we included it. It is a fact that they are available and it is a fact that they are being used, and that was not our resolution, to make them no longer available. It was just to protect the heads of people riding bikes. I would have no problem if you made them unavailable.

Mrs Hill: We only wanted to change a little part of the world, not the whole world.

Ms S. Murdock: Yes, that is sort of our intent as well. You did this sale of helmets at a reduced price through the help of that retailer. Has the use of the bicycle helmets stayed steady over a period of time since?

Mrs Gibson: I would say yes.

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Ms S. Murdock: Has there been a continued deal on the helmets, or just the one time only?

Mrs Gibson: We did it as a one-time-only shot. We have had people at Home and School meetings say that in the future we probably should do it again for the people whose kids are coming up. We made them available to the community at large, so it was not just the children attending the schools. If they had a younger child, they could purchase them and they would still be wearing them, because they last. They are fitted so that you can grow with them. There are only the three sizes. This is the adult size. There was another size that fits females mostly.

Ms S. Murdock: You see, that is the problem too about the carriers. I do not think there is really a helmet that --

Mrs Gibson:: Yes, there is.

Ms S. Murdock: There is, but it is not CSA approved, right?

Mrs Gibson: That is right; it is not CSA approved.

Ms S. Murdock: Right, for under five years of age it is not approved.

Mrs Gibson: That is right.

Mr Waters: I have a couple of questions. One of the things is that when you talked about bicycle clubs and the fact that people would lose interest in cycling, I find that somewhat amazing, because it is usually that particular group that is spending $3,000 on a bicycle. For $20 they are going to quit cycling when they spend three grand on a bike? It sort of blew me away.

Mrs Gibson: We thought they might worry that it would decrease the interest of people in cycling, not just their group, but cycling across the board.

Mr Waters: This being Home and School, I have a pet question that I would like to ask, because my children, although they are adults now, drove me crazy. They made me quit smoking and they made me wear my seatbelt.

I agree; I think we need the law. I think that probably the best means of educating the adults is through their children in our schools, and I would not mind if you talked a bit about that. Give us your opinion on how. We have heard things like we should be spending $800,000 a year on educating people re helmet use. I think the Home and School and the school system could probably do it somewhat cheaper than that, at a great saving to the people of the province, and still have an effective means of educating the adults and the teenagers. A little brother and a little sister have a major effect on driving. They will come and squeal just as much as they would squeal on dad if he did not wear his seatbelt. I would not mind your comments on that.

Mrs Hill: I think you are probably absolutely right, and through this resolution I know that some home and school associations have gone back to their schools. Marlene has received many calls about how we instigated the bicycle helmet sales program and how they can go about doing that sort of thing. So I think there is some education going on through home and school associations.

From a provincial level, there has not been a resolution or recommendation from the board of directors or anything saying that we are going to go out and actively market the education of bicycle helmets. I am not speaking for Norma, but I would hope the Home and School would be willing to buy into that and say, "We are prepared to help anybody educate people to the safety aspects of things."

One thing I did not mention was the bicyclist from Burlington who rode the bike with this helmet.

Mr Waters: He rode the helmet too, I think.

Mrs Hill: He walked away from the accident with only minor scrapes and bruises and it could have been devastating. So we believe there is an element of education. Certainly the kids who were in the assemblies at the schools we were involved in when this helmet was used -- several of my kids and my friends' kids came home and said, "We cannot ride our bikes till we get a helmet." It had a very positive impact on them. So I think you are absolutely right. Younger kids can educate parents who may not have a significant influence on their teenage children as to what they may do. My 14-year-old still says, "It will not happen to me."

Mrs Gibson: "I look like a geek."

Mr Waters: It is amazing. In my area -- I come from central Ontario -- those very children who will not wear a bicycle helmet would not think of going on a motorcycle or a snowmobile without putting it on. They would never think of it.

Mrs Gibson: Now why is that, because there is legislation?

Mr Waters: It is partially because it is mandatory. The other thing is that most adults now recognize that you have to. I know in my son's case -- he took a flip off of his motorcycle into a rock -- he would not be here, quite seriously, because the rest of the injuries to him -- he hit on his head. He would have been dead for sure.

Mrs Gibson: On bicycles and on motorcycles that is often what happens, because unless they are hit from the side by a car, if they are hit and they impact on something, they always go over the handlebars and land on their head. So to my way of thinking I do not know what, short of legislation, I can do to make my daughter wear a helmet.

She could have her brother and sister squeal on her, but I will tell you, they do not have the same boundaries she does. She is a couple of years older and she can go further. She can go on Main Street to visit her friends. She has to cross Main Street in Hamilton and that is the busiest thoroughfare in Hamilton. That is where she has to go to visit her friends. I am scared if she is on a bicycle without a helmet and she is travelling that distance. I know that I can say, "Leeanne, you can't go over there unless you wear your helmet." So on it will go and she will get three blocks down the thing and it will dangle on the --

Mr Dadamo: Fluff up the hair.

Mrs Gibson: -- and she will fluff up the hair and away she will go. She will be fine. But the only time I will know about it is when Emergency phones and says: "Mrs Gibson, we have your daughter here. She fell off her bike and she's now unconscious in the trauma room." I do not want to hear that. I want to have her safe. I do not think I can force her to do it on my own.

Mrs McGuire: If I may add to what has been said, the federation is involved in many areas of the province in local bicycle helmet committees. There are a lot of them springing up. A lot of our members have been involved. There is one that is sitting in Toronto that has been sitting with the Hospital for Sick Children and some of those groups. We have people sitting on those committees. So we are doing that type of thing and promoting and then bringing the information back to our members and letting them know what is happening.

Mr Waters: I just got the high sign because there are other people who want to ask questions.

The Chair: We thank you for your questions and the insights you have provided this committee on the issues.

Mrs Fawcett: I just want to commend you for your excellent presentation. Certainly from my point of view I think you are right on with everything you have said, especially with the teenagers and that eternal problem. As I said once before, I think they maybe go brain-dead for a while there until they are back to being --

Interjection.

Mrs Fawcett: I just hope everything will continue on a positive note when the bill gets passed, hopefully, Mrs Cunningham. Interestingly enough, I noticed that on a cereal box the whole back of it was on bicycle safety. Number one on the list of recommendations was to always wear your helmet. That suddenly got me thinking that maybe we should be going after some corporate people too, once this bill passes, to help promote. I am sure they would, because it is already being done in a small way.

Mrs Cunningham: I have to say that all three of you should be very nervous because I think there are a few others sitting around this table who started our careers -- I know I personally did -- as the president of a home and school association. I never wanted to be the president of the home and school association, but I was one of four people at a meeting and my name was drawn out of the hat. That is how I got there. Then I got annoyed and got on the school board and then again got annoyed and came here. None of which I ever had any pre-plans for, but it all started in caring about my own family and my community.

I have to say that this is probably the most inclusive, well-put-together presentation we have had. It addressed every major issue. This is a major thing to get the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations to pass these resolutions. A lot of work goes into this. Myself, having put resolutions before the floor -- it seems like 100 years ago now -- however, I just want to thank you. If we had to have support from one group that meant a lot, I think to all of us it would be yourselves. Your time has really been well spent. The resolution about the CSA was the question of the deputy just before you. The Deputy Solicitor General did not know that the CSA would be -- I have not checked with my colleagues but I think we probably would have said CSA, given everything we have heard.

We have tried to get the experts. You are ahead of us on that one because some of us thought we knew, but we heard it. Then the fact you are prepared for the legislation means a lot to us because we have heard from other groups of parents, active groups as yourselves.

I do not have questions; I just wanted to thank you sincerely for being here and to let you know that this probably will not be the end of your work. We expect to see you again in many ways.

Mrs Hill: We would be delighted.

Mrs McGuire: Just keep having committees and we will come.

Mrs Cunningham: Great.

The Chair: I speak on behalf of the committee when I thank all of you. It is incredibly important that people from communities across the province get involved in the legislative process. I think all of us feel extremely strongly about that. You people have demonstrated how effective that participation can be.

Thanks to the Ontario Federation of Home and School Associations Inc. Thanks to each and every one of you. You have travelled, in the case of two of you, from Hamilton and from Etobicoke. At this time of night one might as well be the other because of the traffic you are going to encounter on your way back home. You have been very effective in your participation. I trust you will keep in touch with Mrs Cunningham or Mr Dadamo who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Transportation or your own MPP to be advised how this legislation progresses. If you have anything further to say about it, let us know. Have a safe trip home. Take care.

That completes the committee for this afternoon. We are coming back on Wednesday at 3:30 promptly. There is a brief subcommittee meeting following this meeting to which everybody is welcome.

The committee adjourned at 1825.