Thursday 6 December 1990




Chair: Mancini, Remo (Essex South L)

Vice-Chair: Brown, Michael A. (Algoma-Manitoulin L)

Abel, Donald (Wentworth North NDP)

Bisson, Gilles (Cochrane South NDP)

Drainville, Dennis (Victoria-Haliburton NDP)

Duignan, Noel (Halton North NDP)

Harrington, Margaret H. (Niagara Falls NDP)

Mammoliti, George (Yorkview NDP)

Murdoch, Bill (Grey PC)

O'Neill, Yvonne (Ottawa Rideau L)

Scott, Ian G. (St George-St. David L)

Turnbull, David (York Mills PC)

Clerk: Deller, Deborah

Staff: Yeager, Lewis, Research Officer, Legislative Research Service

The committee met at 1005 in room 151.


Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members, it is my duty to call upon you to elect a Chair.

Mr Bisson: I would like to nominate Mr Mancini.

Clerk of the Committee: Are there any further nominations? There being none, I declare nominations closed and Mr Mancini elected Chair of the committee.

The Chair: Members of the standing committee on general government, I wish to welcome each and every one of you to our first meeting. We have a number of items to go through this morning and I will make some remarks, probably after that is done, as it would be a more appropriate time.

Our first job and responsibility now is to elect a Vice-Chair and I would like to ask the honourable members for a name for the election of Vice-Chair.

Mr B. Murdoch: I nominate Mr Brown.

The Chair: Bill Murdoch nominates Mike Brown. Are there any further nominations? There being no further nominations, I declare that the nominations are closed and Mike Brown is elected Vice-Chair.

We need a motion to appoint a subcommittee.

Mr Drainville: I move that a subcommittee on committee business be appointed to meet from time to time at the call of the Chair or at the request of any member thereof to consider and report to the committee on the business of the committee, that substitution be permitted on the subcommittee and that the presence of all members of the subcommittee is necessary to constitute a meeting and that the subcommittee be composed of the following members: Mr Mancini, Chair, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Abel and Mr Murdoch.

Mr B. Murdoch: I would like Mr Turnbull's name put there, please, instead of mine.

The Chair: Mr Murdoch has asked that the name of David Turnbull be substituted. All in favour of the motion? Carried.

Members of the committee, I have had a chance to speak with our clerk and I have also had a chance to think over the responsibilities that we have. I have concluded that our committee is going to be very busy and I have also concluded that probably a lot of major legislation will be sent to this committee for review. We will have more details on that as we go along. So the subcommittee is going to be very important. We are going to have to work very closely together.

My responsibility as Chairman is going to be to help set the agenda, help set the tone and help guide the committee members. The Chairman's responsibility is not to do all of the work. That is the responsibility of each and every member and each and every party that is represented here.

I promise you that I will try to be a fair Chairperson. I will try to ensure that everyone is heard to the best of the rules of the committee. I do not want in any way to be autocratic, and if we can make agreements which will accommodate ourselves and our colleagues as we go along, as long as we can come up with the unanimous decision on these individual instances as they come up, I see no reason why we cannot show some flexibility. Having sat on committees before, I firmly believe that is the best way to get at whatever subject matter the committee is dealing with.


I would like in the near future to present to you a schedule that I would ask you to consider, probably for the months of January, February and March. We may have some in-province travel, depending on the work that is sent to us. It is going to be impossible to accommodate every single member's needs and wishes as far as the schedule is concerned. I would like to have something put forward as soon as possible so that if there are certain weeks when you want to be away in your constituency, or if you have to be away for family and holiday time, which is very important, you will know well enough in advance that you will be able to get a voting substitute and schedule your time accordingly. That is basically -- welcome, Mr Scott.

Mr Scott: Have you been elected yet?

The Chair: Yes, I have been elected unanimously, and I have also been given a gavel.

I will just conclude my remarks with those few short comments. I am looking forward to working with each and every member on the committee. I believe the work we will be doing is not only vital to the public interest, but will also be personally very rewarding and interesting to each and every one of us.

Is there any other business for discussion this morning?

Mr Turnbull: For the purpose of standing order 123, I would like to request that the subcommittee on committee business meet to consider a report to the committee on the following matter to be designated for consideration by the committee:

"A review of the methods employed by the Ministry of Treasury and Economics in generating its fiscal plan and economic projections, and of the relationship between economic and fiscal plan projections and an examination of the factors which contributed to the variance between the 1990 Ontario budget fiscal plan and economic projections and current projections and of how that variance compares to any variances experienced in prior fiscal years in Ontario and in other Canadian provinces.

"This matter to be considered for a period of 12 hours."

The Chair: Since this is our first day and our first motion, I want to make sure that we are all aware of what we are doing, so I will take an extra moment and re-read the motion, as there is only one copy available.

Mr Turnbull: Sorry; I do have other copies.

The Chair: As the copies are being distributed, it has been moved by Mr Turnbull that for the purposes of standing order 123, Mr Turnbull requests that the subcommittee on committee business meet to consider a report to the committee on the following matter, to be designated for consideration by the committee:

"A review of the methods employed by the Ministry of Treasury and Economics in generating its fiscal plan and economic projections and of the relationship between economic and fiscal plan projections and an examination of the factors which contributed to the variance between the 1990 Ontario budget fiscal plan and economic projections and current projections and of how that variance compares to any variances experienced in prior fiscal years in Ontario and in other Canadian provinces.

"This matter to be considered for a period of 12 hours."

My understanding is that under standing order 123, any party represented at the committee has the privilege to put forward once in each calendar year a subject matter to be considered for a maximum of 12 hours, to be considered by the full committee. Mr Turnbull, you are doing this on behalf of the Conservative Party?

Mr Turnbull: I am indeed.

Mr Drainville: Could I ask for maybe a five- or six-minute break for us to caucus and speak about this particular thing, because there are a couple of issues that I think we need to raise in the group.

The Chair: Okay, we can do that; no problem.

The other thing I was going to suggest is that the subcommittee also meet this morning. Maybe while we are meeting we will adjourn the committee and then we can reconvene the whole committee. I would like to accomplish all of our work this morning, if it is okay. I have already been told that some members, including myself, need to get away this afternoon for riding activities, so with everyone's indulgence we can accomplish all our work this morning.

Before we accept your motion, if you do not mind, Mrs O'Neill also has a motion.

Mrs Y. O'Neill: The matter I would like to bring for consideration is a matter that is of very high profile in many areas of this province. I certainly think many lives are affected by it and I think it is something that most of us can understand.

"I would like to propose, for the purposes of standing order 123, that the subcommittee on business meet to consider a report to the committee on the following matter to be designated for consideration by the committee:

"The current status of the interministerial review of the impacts of cross-border shopping, particularly with regard to the effect on job losses, on decreased sales and tax avoidance and that the committee consult with the following people."

I have a suggested list of witnesses from the four ministries that are most involved, from the Ministry of Treasury and Economics, from the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Technology, from the Ministry of Revenue and from the Ministry of Labour and I would humbly suggest that we also open this, by way of advertisement, to those along the border who are most affected.

The Chair: Do we have any further copies, Miss O'Neill?

Mrs Y. O'Neill: I am sorry. I do not, Mr Chairman.

The Chair: For the benefit of the committee, Miss O'Neill has moved that for the purpose --

Mrs Y. O'Neill: Just for your information, I would prefer to be called Mrs O'Neill. I have worked at it for 30 years.

The Chair: Okay, my apologies, Mrs O'Neill. For the benefit of the committee, for the purposes of standing order 123, Mrs O'Neill requests that the subcommittee on business meet to consider a report to the committee on the following matter to be designated for consideration by the committee:

"The current status of the interministerial review of the impacts of cross-border shopping, particularly with regard to the effect of job losses, decreased sales, and tax avoidance and that the committee consult with the following people" -- from the Ministry of Treasury and Economics: Treasurer, Deputy Treasurer, assistant deputy treasurer/economics, director/tax policy; from the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Technology: minister, deputy minister, assistant deputy minister/policy; from the Ministry of Revenue: minister, deputy minister, director/retail sales tax branch; from the Ministry of Labour: minister. deputy minister, director/policy, for up to 12 hours.

It has been requested by Mr Drainville that we have a 5- to 10-minute recess. I will reconvene the committee at approximately 10:32.

Mr Turnbull: Just before you recess, I would just point out that we will have a list of witnesses ready before the subcommittee meets because I failed to say that at the time.

The Chair: That is fine. Thank you for the information, Mr Turnbull.


Mrs Y. O'Neill: Mr Chairman, you mentioned the subcommittee meeting. Do you have any idea of the timing on that subcommittee meeting?

The Chair: As soon as we return from our recess, I believe we will discuss whatever matters committee members wish to bring forward. Upon completion of those discussions, we will immediately go to the subcommittee. I think our work is fairly clear-cut. Standing order 123 allows for these matters to be debated for up to 12 hours. We have our list of witnesses from yourself, Mrs O'Neill. Mr Turnbull will be giving us his list of witnesses. There are one or two other items that we may want to consider. The report of the subcommittee is not debatable. It is to be accepted by the standing committee and I believe we will be able to complete all of our work by noon this morning.

Mr Mammoliti: Just a clarification: Mrs O'Neill stated as well that she would like that open to the public for those who are affected across the border. I am just curious as to what she meant by that.

The Chair: I am assuming she meant that we could have witnesses come forward. If you advertise, there may be people in the business associations, trade unions, individuals who may wish to make a presentation to the committee and that in itself would make the committee open to the public.

Mr Mammoliti: Strictly advertising to the people across the border or in the province as well?

The Chair: What has been the custom, and it does not necessarily mean it has to stay this way, is that the subcommittee would decide where and how to advertise. It could be just in the local newspapers. It could be in daily newspapers. It could be a combination of both. It could even be expanded. We have not really set a budget yet for the committee. That is something that the subcommittee is going to have to help us do so that we can submit it to the Board of Internal Economy. That is the normal course of business, but with the help of all committee members we can do things which are most appropriate for ourselves.

Mrs Y. O'Neill: If I can try to be helpful, I think the only 12-hour assignment -- because as you know, it is a relatively new rule -- that took place in this Legislature was the one on food banks which some of you may be familiar with. If you want to read that report and the kinds of witnesses and how they came from all over the province, I think it would give you an idea, a backdrop upon which to put this kind of a request. I feel that we have to have witnesses from beyond the confines of Queen's Park if this exercise is going to be meaningful on the issue I have presented to the committee.

The Chair: I think this rather short discussion we have had is very good for myself and all the members of the committee. As we get more comfortable with how we operate, we will all feel better about our day-to-day activities. Some of the matters, Mr Mammoliti, that you have brought up will be discussed and ironed out at the subcommittee level. One of the responsibilities of your representative on that committee will be to inform you of what is taking place, etc.

Without any further discussion, we are going to recess and reconvene at 1035.

The committee recessed at 1025.


The Chair: I would like to reconvene the committee and call the committee to order.

Mr Mammoliti: I just wanted you to notice how quickly I moved once you hit the desk.

The Chair: Very good, I appreciate that. Any discussion on matters that were brought up before the recess?

Mr Drainville: Because we are new on this side to many of the procedures of the committee, we just need to be filled in a little about some of the procedures around standing order 123. I want to know, in terms of when government legislation is passed on to this committee, what takes precedence.

The Chair: The orders of the House take precedence, but the House is going to be in recess as of 20 December and we will have the winter season to consider what our work should be and how we should schedule our work. It appears to me today that we will probably have time to accommodate whatever work is sent here plus the 123s, but that may change. I cannot say that with any certainty, because who knows how much government legislation is going to be sent here?

I have an idea that the rent review and rent control bill is going to be sent here, and the subcommittee will have to meet and decide how we are going to handle that. That is going to be a long and difficult task; there is going to be a lot of people who will want to make comments on that. We as committee members might as well realize that up front, that we are going to be spending some weeks over the winter break here at Queen's Park and maybe elsewhere across the province.

Mr Drainville: Again because of my lack of experience, which I acknowledge, I am interested in knowing a little further about that. You have indicated that the committee has the opportunity perhaps to travel. When we do that as a committee, how do we choose those places? Does the subcommittee choose those, talk that over and that is brought back here?

The Chair: It will be through complete consultation. I may make suggestions. It is going to be very difficult for all of us to agree what we should do on what day and where. What I may do as Chairman is make a broad suggestion as to when we should meet, how, what days and where. That may accommodate three quarters of the committee members, and then the other committee members who are not accommodated will have to get substitutions or do the best they can. There may even be instances where I will not be able to be accommodated by the committee and the Vice-Chairman will have to be in the chair with the assistance of the rest of the committee.

Mrs Y. O'Neill: I just add that from my limited experience, with the 12-hour designation on food banks, I really think it would be next to impossible for a committee to even contemplate doing any travelling on a 12-hour item. I do not think we should talk about that. People can be brought here; if they do not have the resources themselves, there are allowances within our budget and beyond to bring them here at our expense if they are needed as witnesses. But I think we should not contemplate travelling on a 12-hour item.

The Chair: I am sorry for not making myself clear. I was not referring to the travel for standing order 123. I was referring to the other legislation which I presume is going to be sent here, the rent review-rent control legislation.

Mr Duignan: That has raised a point on the budget. Is there a budget to be presented for the balance of this fiscal year?

The Chair: Yes. I will be meeting with the clerk. I did not have authority to meet with the clerk prior to this morning to discuss budgets. I believed it would have been improper to do so. But now that the formalities of this morning have been concluded. I intend to meet with the clerk very soon and present some budgets and maybe some options. I believe the budget year ends 30 March.

Mr Duignan: Will you be meeting with the subcommittee to discuss that today?

The Chair: As soon as this discussion is over, we will adjourn so the subcommittee can meet immediately and then I am going to reconvene the full committee to present this.

Mr Duignan: Today?

The Chair: I hope this is all going to be done and completed by noon today.

Mr Bisson: I have a question with regard to the 12-hour thing. Is it what you are suggesting on your motion, Mrs O'Neill, or was it on Mr Turnbull's motion with regard to the 12-hour rule?

The Chair: It is 12 hours for both. The standing orders allow up to a maximum of 12 hours each.

Mr Bisson: That is a relatively new process. Can somebody explain that? What is the process?

Mr Scott: I can explain.

Mr Bisson: I would love to have Mr Scott explain it. He is such a great orator.

Mr Scott: In the last session there were new rules devised to accommodate some governmental concerns and some opposition concerns and there were certain tradeoffs made. I think one of the tradeoffs made was that emergency debates were effectively terminated. They used to occupy a lot of time in the House. In exchange for that, the opposition request, advanced actually by the NDP, was that there should be this 12-hour rule that would permit an opposition issue to be canvassed in committee. That is how the rule developed.

Mr Bisson: So the 12 hours is not 12 hours straight. The 12 hours can be divided over a period of a day or two or three.

Mr Scott: Any way the committee wants, I think, within reason.

The Chair: A week, two weeks or whatever.

Mr Bisson: What kind of notice -- let's say, for example, that somebody from the opposition wanted to utilize that rule. What is the procedure? Is it that you bring it in, you pass your motion, you win your motion -- it comes in play when?

The Chair: I do not think it is a question of winning your motion. It is a privilege that each party has; even government members will have the opportunity.

Mr Bisson: Okay. I misunderstood that.

The Chair: I just wanted to remind everybody that in the packages you have received there is a document called Designation of Matters to be Considered by Standing Committees. On the bottom of page 1 there was a full explanation of the procedure in the subcommittee on committee business. It goes into what standing order 123 does. It provides that "in any calendar year, each member, other than the Chair, of a subcommittee on committee business established by the standing committee is entitled to designate a matter to be considered by the particular committee relating to the mandate, management, organization or operation of a ministry, office or agency, board or commission assigned to the committee. In this context the word `matter' does not refer to a bill which may have been referred to a committee by the House." Then there is a procedure that must be followed, and the clerk is here to ensure that we follow that procedure rigorously.

Mr Bisson: Okay. May we get on with the business of the committee?

The Chair: The committee is going to adjourn and the subcommittee is going to meet. I believe the subcommittee will need at least 45 minutes, so I will be reconvening the full committee at 11:30 am.

The committee recessed at 1045.


The Chair: This morning the subcommittee met and considered two items which the subcommittee unanimously agreed upon. The clerk has prepared report 1 and report 2 of the subcommittee. I would ask the committee that we deem that these two matters have been approved by the full committee of the standing committee on general government. I understand that there can be no debate. Is that correct?

Clerk of the Committee: That is correct.

Mr Duignan: On a point of information, I have the same copy on the second page.

The Chair: As we all know, the clerk prepared this information very quickly for us during our 15-minute recess and I believe has followed the instructions of the subcommittee.

I would just make note for all members of the committee that at the bottom of each report there is a notation that the dates we had discussed and approved among ourselves are subject to the approval of the House leaders. When this information is put to the House leaders, they may in fact agree with the dates or they may say that they have other work which will take precedence over what we decided this morning -- just so that there are no surprises when we convene again next Thursday morning.

Point of information?

Mrs Y. O'Neill: It is a question. I understand that both of these things then have been referred to the subcommittee. Will you be making a commitment now to meet the subcommittee before we recess, likely the week of 17 December, so that we can give to the clerk our final list of witnesses? By then we likely will have some indication from the House leaders.

I think that we are all very aware that these things could be overtaken, but I think we should have as much in line as possible before we leave here on the 20th. I would like to ensure that we are going to have one more subcommittee meeting to firm up our witnesses and that a number of minutes each will be allocated.

The Chair: How be if we meet Thursday morning at 9:15 or 9:30? Then we will just continue with the regular meeting of the standing committee on general government. Is that appropriate or is that too late?

Mr Scott: The only question I have is about the sentence, "These dates are subject to the approval of the House leaders." I understood that the function of the committee was to report to the House the dates that it proposes to sit if it can.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr Scott: It will be up to the House leaders and to a certain extent to the government, which controls the House, to decide if the agenda is going to be altered because of the submission of a government bill or it will be up to the government to decide whether an approval will be given to sitting between sessions, but it is not up to the House leaders. It is up to the House, so I do not understand why this sentence is there.

Clerk of the Committee: The practice is, Mr Scott, that the Chair on behalf of the committee will submit a letter to the House leaders requesting a block of time during the recess and the House leaders then give approval or not by way of motion in the House.

Mr Scott: So the House decides, not the House leaders.

Clerk of the Committee: That is right, but --

Mr Scott: Then why is this sentence there?

Clerk of the Committee: The usual wording is "subject to the approval of the House leaders," because in fact the letter goes to the House leaders. If you like, we could change it to "approval of the House."

Mrs Y. O'Neill: I think that is more accurate. So are you suggesting, to go back to the other point, Mr Chair, that you are going to have a meeting of the subcommittee next Thursday morning at 10 o'clock?

The Chair: At 9:30, because the full committee may want to meet at 10. We may have received information sent to us between now and next Thursday and we may have to convene a full meeting so as to guarantee that the subcommittee will have a chance to meet without any intrusion. I thought that maybe 9:30 -- is half an hour enough for the subcommittee? Okay, thank you.

Mr Duignan: I am just wondering in relation to the dates and times, did the committee not get an opportunity to discuss and also kind of approve the dates and times when committees can meet, etc?

The Chair: The dates and times were worked out in the subcommittee. Some members who were not on the subcommittee actually participated and the report of the subcommittee is deemed approved by the full committee.

As I said earlier on and as I have repeated on a couple of occasions in the subcommittee, there are 12 of us on this committee, including myself, and to try to accommodate all 12 of us is not going to be possible. Our job is to try to accommodate 75% or more of the committee members if we can, and we hammered these dates out. It took us well over 30 minutes to decide on some of these dates and how we are going to do it.

Mr Duignan: I appreciate that. However, there were only four members sitting on the subcommittee. There are 12 members on the committee. Just as a committee member -- I am not arguing with these dates but I feel that in the future the rest of the 75% of the committee should get an opportunity to see whether they agree with these dates and times.

The Chair: What I intend to do in the future is to have a global schedule prepared far the subcommittee and ask it to approve that. It is impossible to discuss these dates with 12 people. You are going to have to count on your subcommittee representative and you are going to have to approach whoever your subcommittee representative is. Right now it is Mr Abel, and he did speak up on a number of occasions during our meetings. It will have to work through our subcommittee members.

Mr Scott: The other reason, just as background, why it is really not useful to have the whole committee -- I understand your feeling, "Look, I'm on the committee and I'm going to be away that day," or some concern like that. The reason that the whole committee cannot address this question effectively is because the people you see here are not necessarily going to be the people who will be participating in the committee hearings. They may be. I intend to. But there will be lots of people who will seek substitutions under the rules that permit that, so why would you and I be consulted when we may not even be here to do this piece of business? That is why the subcommittee fixes the dates and our input is to our representatives on the subcommittee.

Mr B. Murdoch: I agree with what you are saying, but does this mean, though, that anything the subcommittee decides this committee does not have a chance to talk on? I think that is maybe what you are talking about.


The Chair: I believe it is only standing order 123s; the subcommittee's report will be deemed approved. I do want to caution all members that once the subcommittee does meet and once we, through some laborious activity, come up with suggestions and dates, if we bring it to the committee and it is sent back to us, we are not going to be able to accommodate everybody. When we accommodate you, then we are not going to be able to accommodate Mr Mammoliti. When we accommodate Mr Mammoliti, we are not going to be able to accommodate Mr Brown.

Mr B. Murdoch: I was not just concerned about the dates. I think that process is satisfactory, because I agree with what you are saying. You cannot accommodate everybody. I mean on other matters.

The Chair: Only the 123s. I said a number of times this morning that all members are invited to attend the subcommittee meetings, but you do not have the privilege of voting. So you have that privilege and you will be welcome if you attend.

Mr Mammoliti: I agree with the global -- I do not know how you phrased it. I think it is important for all of us to know what dates we are looking at. Getting to the point that Mr Scott raised about not being here is a good one. However, I am going to be here as much as possible, and I would like to know the dates ahead of time so that I can plan for it.

Mrs Y. O'Neill: If I may just try to be helpful, as Mr Scott has stated, you may think you are going to be here, but even within your own patty you may be assigned to do other things on that day. The idea of substitution on committees is a generally accepted principle around here. It certainly is that you may have things that overcome you in your riding. It just has to be understood that this may often be the case. We try not to have it that way, but that is why we, as individuals, do not have a lot of input. Somebody has to take the responsibility of deciding, the same as within your own caucus they decide when they are going to have the caucus retreat, conference or whatever you are going to have. You accommodate or you do not, but substitution is very, very well accepted in this chamber.

The Chair: What I could say is that we have already agreed to sit those two particular weeks in January. If, by chance, we are authorized and instructed by the House to do other work, then we will just substitute the work we have agreed to do on those two weeks with the work that is given to us by the House. We know we are not going to sit the first week of January. We know we are not going to sit the last week of January. We have made no decisions about February.

Mr Scott: It may be that a new member looking at this process, and particularly a government member, sort of says: "Look. We elected 74 members. Why are we being pushed around by a subcommittee in which we only have one representative?" I am sure he or she would not take that attitude, but the reason a 123 subcommittee report is deemed to be accepted without debate is precisely to give the opposition control of that process.

The opposition, I regret to tell you, will not have control of the other processes. What you may regard as the normal rule of democracy will be followed on government business and so on within the limits of the rules. The reason you are sort of not being consulted is that the subcommittee is precisely designed to give the opposition this opportunity.

I remember Ross McClellan and Bob Rae and everybody saying how important this was. I did not think so at the time, but we gave it to them.

Mr Duignan: I agree it is important and I would not change it. All I was asking were clarification points for my own information. I am new at the game and I just wanted some clarification.

Mr Scott: That is the way it is.

Mr Bisson: Can I just raise a point? In the last part of this, "Consideration of this designation shall take precedence over any designation by any other party," does that mean what I think it does in regard to the two matters brought before us to be dealt with before any government bill?

The Chair: No. Mr Turnbull's 123 is first, Mrs O'Neill is second. If the NDP has one, you will be third.

Mr Bisson: Thank you.

The Chair: There is no further work or suggestions for work this morning for the committee. We will adjourn. We have set next Thursday morning at 9:30 am for the subcommittee to meet. Maybe the full committee will meet at 10 am. You will be duly notified.

I see one hand going up before I adjourn.

Mr Duignan: I have a question about the budget for the remainder of the fiscal year. Is that going to come forward at the next committee meeting?

The Chair: I have not had a chance to see the budget myself. As soon as I get a chance to look at it, I will communicate with the committee.

Mr Duignan: We have an approval to hold two weeks of meetings in January and we do not have a budget approval yet from the Board of Internal Economy. I was just wondering when that process was going to take place.

The Chair: As soon as possible, I promise you.

Mrs Y. O'Neill: I wonder if I could ask for the meeting to start at 10:30 on Thursday instead and have the committee meeting at 11 o'clock. I have another commitment at 9:30 which I would like to attend.

The Chair: I am in the committee's hands. It has been suggested that the subcommittee meet at 10:30 am next Thursday and, if there is a meeting necessary of the full committee, that we commence at 11 am.

All in favour?


The committee adjourned at 1246.