Wednesday 20 August 1997

Tartan Act, 1997, Bill 132, Mrs Ross/ Loi de 1997 sur le tartan, projet de loi 132, Mme.Ross

Mrs Lillian Ross

Mr Jim MacNeil


Chair / Président

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre / -Centre PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /

Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean PC)

Mr Tony Clement (Brampton South / -Sud PC)

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North / -Nord L)

Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /

Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford PC)

Mr Ron Johnson (Brantford PC)

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South / -Sud PC)

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East / -Est PC)

Mr Gilles E. Morin (Carleton East / -Est L)

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich L)

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt ND)

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre / -Centre PC)

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel PC)

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma ND)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mrs Lillian Ross (Hamilton West / -Ouest PC)

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie ND)

Clerk / Greffier

Mr Peter Sibenik

Staff / Personnel

Mr Michael Wood, legislative counsel

The committee met at 1555 in room 228.


Consideration of Bill 132, An Act to adopt an official tartan for Ontario / Projet de loi 132, Loi visant à adopter un tartan officiel pour l'Ontario.

The Chair (Mr Joseph N. Tascona): I'll bring the committee to order. We're here today to deal with Bill 132, which is a private member's bill of Mrs Ross. The proceedings today will commence with a statement by Lillian Ross, the MPP. The one person who was going to make a submission has cancelled, so we will then move to discussion and clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. Sorry, I stand corrected. We have one submission by Mr Jim MacNeil. There was one other presenter.

At this point in time, I'll ask Ms Ross if she wishes to make her statement.

Mrs Lillian Ross (Hamilton West): Thank you, Mr Chair and committee members. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss Bill 132, An Act to adopt an official tartan for Ontario. This bill, if passed, will establish an official tartan for the province and will bring forward another symbol to the people of Ontario, similar to the amethyst and the trillium that we adopted many years ago.

The Tartan Act recognizes Scottish heritage in this province, leaders who brought significant contributions in history, culture, law and government. As a matter of fact, many communities in Ontario have been named after Scottish leaders, communities such as Fergus, Wallaceburg, Glengarry county and Cambridge, to name just a few.

We have many leaders in education: The U of T, formerly King's College, was established by a Scot as was the Agricultural College of Ontario in Guelph, by Sir Fergus. Queen's University, founded in 1841, was established by a Scot. Many other leaders -- Alexander Graham Bell, the inventor of the telephone, which I'm sure we're all familiar with, was a Scot. Colonel John McCrae, the author of In Flanders Fields, was a Scot. Many of our political leaders, the first Premier of the province, Sir John Sandfield Macdonald, was a Scot, and I'm told that the first five Premiers of the province were all Scots. So there's a tremendous history of the contribution that Scots have made to this province.

The member for Grey-Owen Sound, Bill Murdoch, brought forward a private member's bill that recognized April 6 as Tartan Day, so it only seems commonsensical that we should bring forward a tartan to go along with the Tartan Day of April 6.

Ontario is one of only three provinces that does not currently have a tartan, the other two being Newfoundland and Quebec.

Personally, for me in Hamilton, we have many Scottish connections. Sir Allan MacNab had a home which we call Dundurn Castle, which is a landmark in Hamilton. Whitehern castle and many of our streets -- Aberdeen, Dundurn -- are all named for Scots. I happen to be married to a Scot, so I have some history.

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): There's a conflict there.

Mrs Ross: Yes. I have some relationship that way as well.

Just to give you a little bit of the history of the tartans, they are an ancient form of dress used by the Scottish Highlanders. There are many different forms of tartans: There's a mourning tartan, a hunting tartan, a clan tartan and a district tartan.

This tartan that we hope to adopt for the province is in fact a district tartan. A district tartan is one that identifies a person's residence in a certain district, whether that person is a member of the dominant clan or not. So anyone can adopt a district tartan. That is what this tartan is; it's a district tartan.

The reason I brought it forward was because many people in my community are of Scottish heritage and thought it strange that we didn't have a tartan when the other provinces did. I investigated it further and found that in fact they were correct. There are, however, eight tartans in the province and many people think there is an official tartan, but there really is not. This tartan is based on the first Premier of Ontario, Sir John Sandfield Macdonald, his Macdonald of Clanranald tartan. I think that it's a tartan that we can all adopt and say that it is part of our heritage and part of our culture.

There's a gentleman making a presentation after me, Mr MacNeil, and he's going to bring forward some points that I probably would, but I'll leave them up to him.

One thing I wanted to say was that if you read the articles that I passed out, there's one from the Ottawa Citizen, and I think it states very clearly how a symbol such as a tartan can bring all of us together in this province. He very clearly stated in his article how when the second reading in the House took place, the chamber changed because it brought forward a community of interest that we all share as Ontarians. I'd just like to read you a couple of quotes from that article. It says:

"What was notable when second reading debate occurred was the tone of this normally testy place. Stories got personal. Members tried to explain something of themselves and their part of the province to colleagues from elsewhere. The search for what they had in common replaced the focus on what divides."

I think that is exactly what will happen if this proposal is adopted for the people of the province of Ontario. The debate for second reading brought forward, as the article states, many personal histories and it was quite interesting to find out in fact how many people had an attachment to some Scottish heritage and culture in their own families.

I would like to recommend to the committee that we adopt the tartan. I won't tell you what the colours and everything are because Mr MacNeil's going to do that and I don't want to repeat what he's going to say. However, in the Legislature the second reading received unanimous support. All members of the Legislature were in agreement with adopting this tartan, so I sincerely hope that the committee agrees with that support.

I just want to reiterate that this symbol is another symbol that we all have in common in this province and I think it can do nothing but unite us even more than it does now.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I have a letter here from a lady, Brenda Taylor, who had indicated in her letter to the clerk that, "We have a lovely Canadian tartan and I very rarely see it worn outside of government buildings." So we do have a Canadian tartan. Is it an official tartan?

Mrs Ross: No, Mr McLean, it is not. Unfortunately, it has never been registered, so it is not official.

Mr McLean: So it's only the provinces that have official tartans?

Mrs Ross: That's correct.

Mr McLean: We're one of three that do not have an official tartan?

Mrs Ross: That's right. Simply the passing of this bill does not make it official. It officially becomes a tartan when it's registered with the Lord Lyon King of Arms in Scotland. It has to be registered first before it can become an official tartan.

Mr McLean: There are some people who have said to me that they thought the Maple Leaf was our official tartan.

Mrs Ross: It's quite interesting, when this bill came out, how many people out there actually believe they have the official tartan. There are, as I stated earlier, eight tartans out there and many people believe that they have the official one, but there is no official tartan.

When Annamarie Castrilli commented in the House on that, she even mentioned that back in 1988 the Liberal government brought forward a tartan, but in fact they did not do anything further with it, so it never went to become official. It never was registered.

Mr McLean: Thank you. I just wanted the clarification.

Mrs Marland: Mrs Ross, when this was in private members' business, I was unable to be in the House so I'm sure you've already addressed the question, but I would like to know how you came to select this particular tartan to become our official tartan.

Mrs Ross: As I stated, there are many people out there who think they have a tartan that is official. Research was conducted by the chair of Scottish studies at the University of Guelph who did all the research for this tartan, and it was designed in fact by Mr Jim MacNeil, who'll be making a presentation in conjunction with the chair of Scottish studies. That is how the tartan was designed. It is, as I said, based loosely on the tartan of Sir John Sandfield Macdonald, the first Premier of the province and has the colours of green, blue, white and red in it to signify much of our heritage and culture in this province.

Mr McLean: What do they signify?

Mrs Ross: I'm stealing his thunder, but the green represents the forests and fields in the province; the blue is the sky above us; the red acknowledges the aboriginal communities, native Indians; and the white -- my mind's gone blank.


Mrs Ross: No, it's not. I'm sorry. My mind's gone completely blank here.

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): What is the sky?

Mrs Ross: The sky above us, yes, I'm sorry. The blue was the waters. Did I say the sky for the blue? That's where I got mixed up. Sorry. The blue was for the waters and the white was for the sky. I do have a small patch of it. I'm sorry I didn't bring my sash with me today, but I do have a small patch here that I can pass around. Oh, we have a big patch, which I'll pass around to you so you can see the actual colours of the tartan. As you see, it's predominantly blue and green to represent the forests and fields and the waters of the province, and the white line represents the sky whereas the red represents the aboriginal, native community.

The Chair: Is that going to be an exhibit?


Mrs Marland: So this tartan then is a brand-new design for the purpose of becoming our official tartan?

Mrs Ross: Absolutely, yes, it is.

Mrs Marland: I just would say in comment that, although you make a heavy emphasis of our historical tie to Scotland, if you think about the other peoples of, for example, just the British Isles, and since I came from a part of the British Isles other than Scotland, there is such a strong tie as to who came from Scotland to Ireland and to Wales in fact where my ancestral roots are or to the rest of England, I think it's most appropriate that a tartan become officially registered on behalf of our province. I find it fascinating because I think everybody is very familiar with the Nova Scotia tartan and most of us can at least begin to describe it because they've done a very good job of promoting their own tartan as a provincial tartan.

Mrs Ross: Yes, they have.

Mrs Marland: I wasn't aware that other provinces had them, but I can picture the Nova Scotia tartan very well. I would like to congratulate you on your effort to bring in a private member's bill to make such a pleasant event happen in Ontario and to become part of our history and for whoever has designed this. Is Mr MacNeil the person who designed it?

Mrs Ross: Yes, he did.

Mrs Marland: We will be hearing from him so we can congratulate him a little later on in the meeting. Thank you very much.

Mrs Ross: You're welcome.

Mr Tony Clement (Brampton South): Mrs Ross, there must be a big register then, a worldwide register in which you check to see whether a new tartan is in -- it's almost like a patent.

Mrs Ross: That's correct.

Mr Clement: I'm trying to think of an analogy -- so that there's no confusion as to the origin or meaning of a particular tartan, I suppose. Is that how it works?


Mrs Ross: As I stated earlier, once the official tartan is recognized, it has to be registered by Lord Lyon King of Arms in Scotland. All tartans are registered there, so in fact there is a list you can check to ensure that the tartan is official and there is no other duplicate.

Mr Clement: Do you have any knowledge as to whether this tartan is unique in terms of its use of colours and design and there's no opportunity for someone to get confused as to whose tartan this is?

Mrs Ross: No. Perhaps Mr MacNeil can get into that. There is a specific way that it's woven that determines what the tartan is. I would prefer that he answer that question, because I'm not knowledgeable enough in that area.

But I can tell you that when Brenda Elliott, the member for Guelph, wore her tartan in -- Guelph has a tartan, and Mrs Marland is correct that Nova Scotia has a tartan, but there are many communities across the province that have their own tartans and Guelph is one of them -- her tartan is very similar to this tartan. The colours are very much the same, but there are distinct and unique differences in the way it's woven.

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): Mrs Ross, I too want to congratulate you and commend you for bringing this forward. My party is in strong support of this. Everybody's trying to identify, I notice, with this tartan and the Scottish background, and you know how diverse our party is with different ethnic backgrounds. I being the only black here, you must be wondering what identity I could have.

To begin with, I was very proud to know that they named the Scottish game of curling after me, and the fact is that there are quite a lot of Scots in Jamaica who have migrated here and we can identify with the tartan here now too. I too, as a Jamaican and a Canadian and a Scot, can identify with the tartan somehow, and I was pleased to see my colleague, my French connection here, was saying to me that there was also black inside the colouring of the tartan, which I was extremely pleased with. Here I am again having much more identification with this than quite a few of my colleagues. It was quite pleasant.

One of the things that really jumped out, as you said, is that Jim Coyle had written about things that can pull us together at times and some of the strangest things, of all things, and here we are identifying here, and here I am identifying with this. It's quite a momentous time, and I want to be on record that, as a Scot, I am proud that we are going to have an official tartan that we can identify with.

Mrs Ross: Thank you very much.

Mr Gilles E. Morin (Carleton East): I want to congratulate you also for bringing forward this bill. I only wish that all bills were as easy to debate and as pleasant also to discuss, one I rejoice in, and I'd like to quote you. "Since the Ontario tartan reflects territorial loyalties, it is as legitimate for an Ontarian of Scottish background to wear the tartan as it would be for an Ontarian of French, Polish, Hungarian or Italian background to wear it as well." Perhaps you will see me some day in a kilt. I want to congratulate you again. I support it 200%.

Mrs Ross: Thank you very much.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I think it's a good idea as well to have things that all of us can identify with as symbolizing our heritage, commitments that we make to each other, and the fact that we are a community of people. Sometimes it takes a vehicle such as a flag or a tartan to focus our attention and to do that, so I'm always supportive of efforts to do that. I think they're really, really important.

With that, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. Somebody had made the comment that we have a national tartan that you very seldom see outside of official functions, and that's unfortunate. If you're going to have a symbol, it's only as effective a symbol as people see it as their own and use it.

I'm wondering if part of the problem sometimes is you get excited about it, you bring it here, we get excited about it, and in our enthusiasm we go ahead and pass it, but we don't do much by way of fertilizing some of the interest in it. In choosing the tartan, one person comes forward and presents a possibility, and I have no quarrel with the rationale. The colours and what they represent certainly are part of our culture and our heritage, our reality today.

It seems to me that it might be even more helpful by way of the ultimate effect and importance of this tartan for somebody, and I don't know who, or some organization to go out and ask people what they think of this and what they would suggest by way of the tartan, the colours. As you know, we had a package that we were given today with a couple of letters from some people who I think supported the idea but have some further ideas about the colours, some of the material that's in it.

It seems to me that you would develop or engender in people a greater sense of ownership of this thing and probably the possibility that people might in fact wear it and see it as meaning something more readily if they were involved in some way, if their fingerprints were on it, in ultimately choosing whatever we choose as a province as our tartan.

It seems to me once you choose it, once we make the decision here today and we submit to Scotland for recognition by the organization that does that, it's set. That's it; that's our tartan. I think in light of the tremendous importance that this could have for all of us, in light of how helpful it could be, particularly to those of us of Gaelic ancestry, and the hope that it would become a useful symbol down the road and the need to include people, I would just ask you what effort you have made so far to include others in this and whether there is anything we could do to get more people involved, get their fingerprints on it so that at the end of the day they buy into it and they would know about it and on appropriate occasions would wear it, whether it be a kilt or a sash or a hat or some other expression.

Mrs Ross: As I stated earlier, Mr Martin, the tartan was developed with Mr MacNeil and with the chair of Scottish studies. I have spoken in my community with several people involved in Robbie Burns Day and other Scottish events about the tartan and taken it out and shown it to them, and every comment I've received has been very, very positive about it. I believe if you were to ask every Scot in the community, you would have as many different variations of a tartan as you have Scots and I believe that going to the experts is one of the best ways to come up with something that is indeed based on Scottish tradition in this country and in this province.

If you base the tartan on the first Premier of the province, I think that's a legitimate person to base the tartan on. You see, all tartans are based on -- usually a family develops the tartan. As a matter of fact, there was someone who was going to make a presentation. The tartan that he wanted to bring forward was based on his grandfather's tartan. I think the chair of Scottish studies is knowledgeable enough in developing and researching it to have come up with this design. I would hate to go back to the drawing board and redevelop another tartan, quite frankly.

Mr Martin: I will certainly at the end of the day support your effort here, but it seems to me we may be missing a wonderful opportunity to bring more people in to this process so the end result would be they feel some ownership and would be more ready to participate in wearing it and truly making it a symbol that has some meaning.


Mrs Ross: As I stated when I tried to describe what the makeup of the tartan was, it's really based on geography. It's not really based on the people, it's based on the geography of the province, so how anybody could object to the greenery and the blue waters, I don't know. But the tartan is based on the geography and not so much the people.

Mr Martin: I'm not so much concerned, to be honest with you, about what it's based on. I think you've presented a very legitimate case for the tartan that you've got there. It's not the geography that wears it, ultimately, or makes it important or makes it their own; it's the people.

Mrs Ross: But you know what? It's people like you and I who can promote the tartan and can help the people of the province to identify and relate to that tartan. It's the leaders in the community who get people to jump on the bandwagon and take part.

Mr Martin: I understand. I'll end my comments here by saying it seems to me it makes more sense to have people involved before than to try to get them involved after you've made the major decisions about why and how and what. Anyway, that's all.

Mr McLean: On a point of privilege, Mr Chairman: I see Wildman is speaking in the House and I think we have probably about 10 or 15 minutes left before we have another vote. I'm just curious how much longer you think we're going to be here.

The Chair: Mr Tilson would like to say something, and then we have Mr MacNeil, who is here to make a presentation.

Mr Tilson: I'll be very brief. I just want to congratulate you on bringing this bill forward. Anything we can do to unify the country or unify the province, I think we all support, although I'm interested of course in your placing the Scottish flavour in it. My ancestors I believe are from Ireland and I'm told that there is Irish tartan as well, although my family never had one. They probably couldn't afford it, I guess, but I don't think we ever had a tartan. My wife, who is of Scottish descent, would never forgive me if I didn't support this bill. She's even out taking bagpipe lessons and I don't know what all.

Aside from what country you tie it to, I think the way you've made your presentation, it's the type of presentation that shows that it tries to describe Ontario and not any one particular country and for that reason it's a unifying factor. I think all members of the committee have spoken in favour of it and I too will lend my support to it.

I have one question which I had asked of you in advance of the committee -- it may have been raised in the House, which I wasn't able to be present at -- and that is clarifying, for historical purposes, when the tartan first came about and when it is worn today. Are there certain occasions? I know the member for Grey-Owen Sound will tell us to wear it on his particular day, but there may be other days and I'd like to know more about that.

Mrs Ross: The actual word "kilt," which is how you'll see most tartans worn, is a pun or play on the word "Celt." When listening to the member for Downsview when she talked about her Italian heritage, she went back to the days of Julius Caesar, which is when the tartan was first developed and was worn during battle. She claims, and I believe it's true, that the Italians in the mountainous areas used the bagpipes to shepherd their sheep, so there's a lot of relationship of Italians to Scots. The kilt was actually an ancient form of dress and was used in the times of Julius Caesar.

It has been adopted by the Scots, as you know, and currently, today, is worn for any type of ceremonial dress. Robbie Burns Day, as I mentioned. If you've ever attended a Robbie Burns dinner, you'll know that there are many different kilts worn by many different people. It's worn on all ceremonial occasions. However, some Scots wear them for everyday dress, so it can be worn for whatever you wish it to be worn for.

Mr Tilson: Again, I just offer my congratulations to you in bringing the bill forward.

Mrs Ross: Thank you very much.

Mrs Marland: One question I have for you, Mrs Ross, and it may not be one that you can answer today but one that I think we should look into further is the registration. You've mentioned it being registered by an organization in Scotland. Because I had the privilege of designing the coat of arms for the city of Mississauga with one other member of council there, Councillor Frank McKechnie, I learned a lot during a period of two years about the registration and how very important that is. It's not dissimilar from anything that is an official emblem of a city, a town, a village or a province, so when this becomes the official tartan, it also becomes an official emblem of the province.

I certainly found out when we went to register our coat of arms for the city of Mississauga that we did have to register it with the House of Heraldry, I think it was called. Anyway, very quickly through research we can find who that is in London. It may well be that this has to be registered outside of Scotland as well, so I would ask that we follow that up, just to make sure that it is protected.

I must say that it is exciting, the more you think about it. I really enjoyed the member for Scarborough North's comments because I think it's so true about who has ties to all of this wonderful ancestry. In fact we all do; I think that's why we all feel so positive about it. I certainly will look forward to seeing both Mr Curling and M. Morin in their kilts. I went to a public school in England where kilts were our uniform. We look forward to seeing you on Tartan Day in your Ontario tartan kilts.

The Chair: Mrs Ross, I thank you for your statement. We have Mr MacNeil, who is here to make a presentation. I'd like to thank you for coming out today, Mr MacNeil. You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

Mr Jim MacNeil: Thank you, Mr Chairman, it's a privilege to be with you today. I'm just going to read this, which will give everybody the story of the tartan.

Throughout the world, tartans are worn as a symbol of pride, be it in family or place of origin. Although we in Ontario have a great deal of pride in our province, we do not as yet have an official tartan. For this reason, the province of Ontario tartan has been created.

Based loosely on the Macdonald of Clanranald tartan, the design pays homage to Sir John S. Macdonald, Ontario's first Premier, while at the same time it reflects the diversity of our province. In the tartan, the shades of green represent the forests and agriculture of Ontario, the red represents the first nations of Ontario, the shades of blue represent the waters of Ontario and the white represents the sky over Ontario.

Ontarians may now proudly wear a tartan wherein all colours and stripes combine to create an atmosphere of harmony and prosperity, a tartan designed with a phrase in mind well known to Ontarians, "Keep it beautiful."

You've all seen the tartan and I know that everywhere it's been shown, everyone who has seen it has had very good comments on it. After the second reading, all the people who were around there wanted to place orders right away and I said, "No, not yet." But it was very well received by everyone I have spoken to about it.


The Chair: Thank you, Mr MacNeil. Are there any questions for Mr MacNeil?

Mr McLean: How soon will we be able to get a jacket made?

Mr MacNeil: As soon as I can register it in Ottawa.

Mrs Marland: Mr McLean is asking that question because he has got one he's been trying to replace for 12 years.

Mr Tilson: It has got holes in it.

Mr McLean: My wife made the one that I've got and I will certainly not ever part with that one. It's a beautiful jacket. The number of hours that went into making it, I know it's worthwhile keeping it.

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): Just in follow-up to Mr McLean's question about how soon could you make a jacket, not being too much into tartan jackets, I wasn't thinking of ordering one, but you suggested that it would take until you could get it registered. Is there a regulation or a law that says you cannot make something out of that tartan if it's not someone's official tartan?

Mr MacNeil: Yes, it will be patented in Ottawa and registered there, and registered in Scotland and patented there with the Scottish tartans authority and the Lord Lyon King of Arms. MacNeil's Scottish Imports, in cooperation with the Scottish Studies Foundation, will have the authority to have different things made from it. Principally, it would be ties and scarves and things like that.

Mr Hardeman: Just going a little further on that, as it is presently not the official tartan of anyone, can that not be utilized by everyone presently, before it is registered?

Mr MacNeil: They would have to have the thread count.

Mr Clement: I'm just seeking from our guest here, Mr MacNeil, some concurrence with some of the discussion we've had. I apologize; I'm not trying to anticipate future votes, but it seems like there is a certain degree of consensus around the table that we will be proceeding with a positive recommendation. I know in my own community our military regiment is the Lorne Scots and we've got a very active Scottish club that around Robbie Burns and at other times does a lot of community work over and above the celebration of Scottish heritage. They do a lot of work for those who are afflicted with cancer, for instance, and so on. There's a whole level of interest in that area.

The other thing that I find, Mr MacNeil, very interesting about this is how Mrs Ross is trying to make this as inclusive as possible, that this is something that we can all celebrate as part of a wider heritage, not just those who happen to have some Scottish ancestry. I would hope that through your contacts and linkages with the Scottish organizations and through Mrs Ross's efforts, and indeed through all of our efforts as parliamentarians, if and when this is adopted as the official tartan, we really should do all that we can to get the word out that there is this thing called an official tartan, and it would be, I think, something we should celebrate. It's something we shouldn't hold close to our chests. We should get it out there and get the whole community involved in this very positive step. I hope you agree with me in that regard.

Mrs Marland: I have a question for Mr MacNeil, but just before, could I ask you, Mr Chair, if this passes the committee today, when does it become the official tartan of the province?

The Chair: The bill says it comes into force on the receiving of royal assent. The bill itself doesn't address that.

Mrs Margaret Marland: So we report back to the House --

The Chair: With respect to the bill.

Mrs Marland: -- and the third reading, normal procedure?

The Chair: Yes.

Mrs Marland: Mr MacNeil, first of all, on my own behalf and on behalf of my constituents, whom I'm privileged to represent, I would like to thank you very much indeed for your participation in this whole process, and particularly your work with the chair of Scottish studies at Guelph university in developing the design. I realize that one important aspect of this is that you've indicated that all profits that you might accrue from the tartan will go to maintain the chair of Scottish studies at the University of Guelph and its program. I'm wondering if you would like to talk about that.

Mr MacNeil: A portion of every yard sold will be going to the Scottish Studies Foundation to help fund the School of Scottish Studies, which is looking for $1 million to do this. We'll be doing as much as we can through this to accelerate that.

Mrs Marland: Are you going to be one of the manufacturers of the material?

Mr MacNeil: No.

Mrs Marland: I'm looking at some briefing notes that said that you had indicated that all profits from the tartan will go to maintain the chair of the Scottish studies program at Guelph university. Maybe the briefing notes are incorrect.

Mr MacNeil: I don't know where that came from.

Mrs Marland: The reason that I ask you was not to question it but rather to give you an opportunity to talk about it and enlarge upon it. I'm sorry that the briefing notes are incorrect.

Mr MacNeil: We'll be doing as much as we can. The cloth may be woven in Ontario. It's my opinion that the Ontario tartan should be made in Ontario, but it will depend on the quality of cloth and different other factors, how they can produce, in what quantity and so forth.

Mrs Marland: Thank you again for the work that you've contributed to this.

The Chair: I'd like to thank you very much, Mr MacNeil, for taking the time to come to us today.

Is the committee ready for clause-by-clause? Are there any amendments to any section of Bill 132? No.

Shall section 1 carry? Carried.

Shall section 2 carry? Carried.

Shall section 3 carry? Carried.

Shall the schedule carry? Carried.

Shall the title carry? Carried.

Shall the bill carry? Carried.

Shall I report the bill to the House? Carried.

I think that concludes our proceedings today. I would like to thank all the members and Mrs Ross for passage of her bill.

The committee adjourned at 1639.