Social Housing Reform
Act, 2000, Bill 128, Mr Clement / Loi
de 2000 sur la réforme du logement social, projet
de loi 128, M. Clement
STANDING COMMITTEE ON
JUSTICE AND SOCIAL POLICY
Chair /
Présidente
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre / -Centre
PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East / -Est PC)
Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex PC)
Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul's L)
Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East / -Est PC)
Mrs Brenda Elliott (Guelph-Wellington PC)
Mr Garry J. Guzzo (Ottawa West-Nepean / Ottawa-Ouest-Nepean
PC)
Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre / -Centre ND)
Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan L)
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre / -Centre
PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant PC)
Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East / -Est L)
Mr Brad Clark (Stoney Creek PC)
Mr Brian Coburn (Ottawa-Orléans)
Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East / -Est PC)
Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North / -Nord PC)
Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands / Kingston et les
îles L)
Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-East York ND)
Mr John O'Toole (Durham PC)
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre / -Centre PC)
Also taking part / Autres participants et
participantes
Mr Tony Clement (Brampton West-Mississauga /
Brampton-Ouest-Mississauga PC)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Tom Prins
Staff / Personnel
Ms Joanne Gottheil, legislative counsel, Ministry of the Attorney
General
The committee met at 1535 in room 151.
SOCIAL HOUSING REFORM ACT, 2000 / LOI DE 2000 SUR LA
RÉFORME DU LOGEMENT SOCIAL
Consideration of Bill 128, An
Act respecting social housing / Projet de loi 128, Loi
concernant le logement social.
The Chair (Ms Marilyn
Mushinski): I call the meeting to order. Good afternoon,
ladies and gentlemen. This is a standing committee on justice and
social policy meeting to discuss clause-by-clause consideration
of Bill 128, An Act respecting social housing.
Mr Brian Coburn
(Ottawa-Orléans): I believe we have unanimous
consent to stand down sections 1 to 124 to deal with the motion
on subsection 125(4), (4.1) and (5) and then return to section
1.
The Chair:
Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.
Then we'll go to section 125.
There is an amendment. The amendment needs to be read into the
record.
Hon Tony Clement
(Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Madam
Chair, if I could have the floor, with your indulgence.
The Chair:
Minister Clement.
Hon Mr
Clement: I believe I'm moving at committee that
subsections 125(4) and (5) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Same
"(4) The minister shall pay
to the DSSAB service manager, in accordance with the
regulations.
"(a) the amount apportioned
to the territory without municipal organization under subsection
(1), and
"(b) the amounts prescribed
for the purposes of subsection 122(2) that are incurred or to be
incurred by the DSSAB service manager in respect of housing
programs prescribed for the purposes of subsection 117(1) with
respect to a municipality that is deemed to be territory without
municipal organization under a regulation made under subsection
(6).
"Same
"(4.1) If an amount paid
under subsection (4) includes estimates of costs still to be
incurred.
"(a) the DSSAB service
manager shall pay to the minister, in accordance with the
regulations, the amount by which the estimates of costs still to
be incurred exceed the actual costs, and
"(b) the minister shall pay
to the DSSAB service manager, in accordance with the regulations,
the amount by which the estimates of costs still to be incurred
are less than the actual costs.
"Recovery of amount
"(5) The amount apportioned
to the territory without municipal organization under subsection
(1) may be recovered by the crown from persons living in the
territory, except those living in a municipality deemed to be a
territory without municipal organization under a regulation made
under subsection (6), in the same manner as taxes imposed on
property under the Provincial Land Tax Act."
The Chair:
Any debate?
Mr John Gerretsen
(Kingston and the Islands): Can we have an explanation
of that? What's the purpose of it?
The Chair:
Who wishes to speak to that? Mr Coburn.
Mr Coburn:
Actually, this is the correct provision regarding territory
without municipal organization and refers particularly to
Moosonee so they can in fact get paid in a timely fashion.
Mr
Gerretsen: Thank you.
The Chair:
Any discussion? All in favour of the amendment? Opposed? That
carries.
We'll deal with section 125.
Shall section 125, as amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Now we go back to section
1.
1540
Mr David Caplan (Don
Valley East): Just a question. Some of the amendments
that have been introduced are duplicated, and I wonder if there's
an appropriate time to advise you that we'll withdraw them.
Should we do that now or should we do that when we come to
them?
The Chair:
We should do it when we get to it.
Section 1, a Liberal
motion.
Mr Caplan: I
move that the act be amended by striking out "tenant" wherever it
appears and substituting, in each case, "tenant or member."
The Chair:
Any discussion? All in favour of the amendment? Opposed? It does
not carry.
Mr
Gerretsen: Just a point of clarification: is the
minister a voting member of this-
The Chair:
My understanding is that he is a voting member. We have received
a sub slip.
Mr
Gerretsen: He's been subbed in?
The Chair:
He's been subbed in.
Liberal motion, number 2.
Mr Gerretsen: If he didn't vote, it
means it was three to three, Madam Chair.
Interjections.
Mr
Gerretsen: Oh, he voted late.
The Chair:
Liberal motion number 2.
Mr Caplan: I
move that section 1 of the bill be struck out and the following
substituted:
"Purpose
"1. The purpose of this act
is to provide for the efficient and effective administration of
housing programs by service managers and the efficient and
effective operation and management of housing projects by
self-governing community-based housing providers."
The Chair:
Shall the section carry? All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
NDP motion number 3.
Ms Frances Lankin
(Beaches-East York): I move that section 1 of the bill
be struck out and the following substituted:
"Purpose
"1. The purpose of this act
is to provide for the efficient and effective administration of
housing programs by service managers and the efficient and
effective operation of housing projects by self-governing
community-based housing providers."
I believe this is verbatim
and therefore should be withdrawn.
The Chair:
That's withdrawn.
Government motion number
4.
Interjection.
The Chair:
Sorry. We need to vote on section 1. So many amendments.
Interjection.
The Chair:
Committee members, could you give me a moment, please. We just
need to figure out these various sub slips as to who's voting and
who isn't.
Mr
Gerretsen: So the minister was subbed in-
The Chair:
He was subbed in.
Mr
Gerretsen: -for about two minutes and-
The Chair:
Actually, he's been subbed in until 4 o'clock is my
understanding.
Mr
Gerretsen: Well, then, who is not eligible to vote till
4 o'clock?
The Chair:
Hang on. We're trying to figure that out.
Mr
Gerretsen: Thank you.
Mr John O'Toole
(Durham): Am I correctly subbed on?
Clerk of the
Committee (Mr Tom Prins): For only two minutes.
Mr O'Toole:
For two minutes? No, I've been subbed on for the afternoon. I
could be wrong.
Interjections.
The Chair:
Sorry, committee members. We're going to take a two-minute recess
to sort this out. There is some confusion as to exactly who has
been subbed on. The clerk needs to know that.
The committee recessed
from 1544 to 1547.
The Chair:
Mr O'Toole, Mr Coburn, Mr Barrett and Mr Clark are the committee
members. So we will go back to section 1.
Interjection.
The Chair:
We have to do section 1 before we can move to section 2. We need
to vote on section 1.
Shall section 1 carry? All in
favour of section 1? Opposed?
Mr
Gerretsen: That's lost. There was only one who
voted.
Mr O'Toole:
Madam Chair, I did not hear the question being called. Was it "as
amended" or was it-because we have amended section 1.
The Chair:
No.
Interjections.
Mr O'Toole:
There was a government amendment that was adopted in section 1,
if I'm not-
The Chair:
No.
Ms Lankin:
Only one government member has voted.
The Chair: I
think we will take the vote again.
Ms Lankin:
Madam Chair, to be reasonable here, I understand that it's
unfortunate if committee members are not paying attention. But I
have sat on bills at other occasions when key clauses that the
government wanted were defeated because members weren't paying
attention. I don't understand why at this point in time we would
afford an opportunity for a revote.
The question was clearly
asked. You specifically indicated that there were no amendments
to section 1 and, "Shall section 1 pass?" Unfortunately for the
government at this point in time, only the parliamentary
assistant voted; in the opposition, three members of committee
voted. The vote is three to one opposed. So I don't understand
how we can revisit the vote.
The Chair:
OK. We'll move to section 2, government motion number 4.
Mr Coburn: I
move that the definition of "non-profit housing co-operative" in
section 2 of the bill be struck out and the following
substituted:
"`non-profit housing
co-operative' means a non-profit housing co-operative under the
Co-operative Corporations Act."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion number 5 on
section 2.
Mr Caplan: I
move that the definition of "non-profit housing co-operative" in
section 2 of the bill be struck out and the following
substituted:
"`non-profit housing
co-operative' means a non-profit"-I'm sorry. That is verbatim of
the last one; I withdraw that one. My apologies.
The Chair:
Withdrawn.
Government motion number 6 on
section 2.
Mr Coburn:
I move that the definition of "special-needs housing" in section
2 of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:
"`special-needs housing'
means a unit that is occupied by or is made available for
occupancy by a household having one or more individuals who
require accessibility modifications or provincially funded support
services in order to live independently in the community."
The Chair:
All in favour of that? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion number
7.
Mr Caplan:
I withdraw, Madam Chair.
The Chair:
Liberal motion number 7 is withdrawn.
Government motion number
8.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 2 of the bill be amended by adding the
following definition:
"`supportive housing
provider' means a housing provider providing special-needs
housing in a housing project operated by it."
The Chair:
All in favour of that? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion number
9.
This is a new section, 2.1.
So we'll actually vote on section 2.
Shall section 2, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
New section 2.1, Liberal
motion number 9.
Mr Caplan:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
after section 2:
"Non-application
"2.1 This act ceases to
apply to a housing project when it is no longer subject to a
mortgage guaranteed by the province of Ontario or the Ontario
Housing Corporation or a mortgage guaranteed or held by the
government of Canada or the Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Moving to section 3. There
are no amendments for section 3. Shall section 3 carry? All in
favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Section 4. Shall section 4
carry? All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Subsections 5(4) and (5),
Liberal motion number 10.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 5 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsections:
"Duty to consult
"(4) Before exercising any
power or performing any duty under this act that would have a
material effect on the operating practices of a housing provider
or the duties of a housing provider under this act, a service
manager shall consult with the housing provider.
"Same
"(5) Without limiting the
generality of subsection (4), a service manager shall consult
with each affected housing provider before the service
manager,
"(a) submits a transfer
plan to the minister under section 1;
"(b) establishes a local
eligibility rule under section 71;
"(c) establishes a local
occupancy standard under section 72;
"(d) establishes a local
priority rule under section 73, or
"(c) establishes a local
standard under section 89."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion number
11.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 5 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsections after subsection 5(5)-I guess that should
be renumbered because the last one fell:
"Consultation with housing
providers
"(6) Before exercising a
power under this act or the regulations that would affect in a
material or substantial way a housing provider's operating
practices or a housing provider's obligations under this act or
the regulations, a service manager shall consult with the housing
provider.
"Same
"(7) Without limiting the
generality of" the previous subsection "before establishing a
local eligibility rule under section 71, a local occupancy
standard under section 72, a local priority rule under section 73
or a local standard under section 89, a service manager shall
consult with every housing provider who may be affected by the
rule or standard."
It seems pretty
reasonable.
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Shall section 5 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Moving to section 6,
government motion number 12.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 6 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Additional powers,
municipal service manager
"(1) The provision of
residential accommodation by a municipal service manager under
this act shall be deemed to be a municipal purpose of that
service manager, and a municipal service manager may exercise for
the purposes of this act the powers that it has as a municipality
under the Municipal Act, the Regional Municipalities Act or any
other general or special act."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 6, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 7 carry? All
in favour?
Mr Caplan:
Could we do 7 through 11?
The Chair:
Yes, if that's how you want to deal with it. Shall sections 7
through 11 carry? All in favour of sections 7 through 11?
Opposed? Those sections carry.
Shall section 12 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Members of committee, if
you don't put your hands up it is very difficult for me to see
whether you're voting or not. I would ask you, please, to make
sure you do.
Section 12.1, a Liberal
motion.
Mr Caplan:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
after section 12 and before the heading "Performance of
Duties":
"Responsibilities of housing provider
"12.1 Despite anything in
this part or in part V, a housing provider operating a housing
project is responsible,
"(a) for all rent
collection matters in respect of the housing project; and
"(b) for entering into an
agreement with a household occupying a unit in the housing
project for the repayment of rental arrears if a service manager
has determined that the household has paid an amount of
geared-to-income rent that is less than the amount of
geared-to-income rent payable by the household."
Mr Coburn:
For (b), I have, "for entering into an arrangement".
Mr Caplan:
Oh, I'm sorry. I'll reread that.
"(b) for entering into an
arrangement with a household occupying a unit in the housing
project for the repayment of rental arrears if a service manager
has determined that the household has paid an amount of
geared-to-income rent that is less than the amount of
geared-to-income rent payable by the household."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? Do you agree? All
agreed? That carries. Section 12.1 has carried.
Section 13. Liberal motion
number 14.
Mr Caplan:
Are you going to do section 13 first and then 13.1?
The Chair:
This is part of 13. Subsection 13(1.1).
Mr Caplan:
OK. I move that section 13 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Consultation
"(3.1) Before approving the
plan, the service manager shall consult with all affected housing
providers in its service area."
The Chair:
Just for clarification, after "Consultation" you said "(3.1)."
I'm assuming you mean (1.1)?
Mr Caplan:
No.
The Chair:
You said, "Before approving" rather than "Before submitting."
Mr Caplan:
It's actually (3.1). I had asked the clerk if we needed to have
any kind of unanimous consent. It's slightly different from what
appears here. It was just a minor technical amendment. Do I need
to seek unanimous consent to do that?
Interjection.
Mr Caplan:
OK. Why don't I do it this way? We had agreement to make a change
to this amendment, so I seek unanimous consent.
Mr Coburn:
This is 13(3.1)?
Mr Caplan:
Yes.
Mr Coburn:
Not 13(1.1)?
Mr Caplan:
It just changes-
The Chair:
This is Liberal motion 14.
Mr
Gerretsen: Yes. It comes right after.
Mr Coburn:
I don't have number 14. It's subsection 13(3.1).
Mr Caplan:
It was (1.1). It got changed in the-
Mr Coburn:
You streamlined it.
Mr Caplan:
We agreed on a streamlined approach.
Sorry about that. I talked
to the clerk about it before. I didn't think I had to change
that. I'll seek unanimous consent to change the number-
The Chair:
Legislative counsel actually has a question on it, so I think
we'll-
Ms Joanne
Gottheil: I just need a few minutes.
The Chair:
We'll take a recess and get it copied.
The committee recessed
from 1603 to 1611.
The Chair:
We're back in session. We are at Liberal motion number 14, which
will now be read by Mr Caplan.
Mr Caplan:
We'll try this again, Madam Chair, and I apologize for the
confusion.
I move that section 13 of
the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:
"Consultation
"(3.1) Before approving the
plan, the service manager shall consult with all affected housing
providers in its service area."
Interjection.
Mr Caplan:
Oh, should we have done the other one first?
The Chair:
If you could just confirm that you've withdrawn the other
one.
Mr Caplan:
I've withdrawn (1.1).
The Chair:
That was previously 13(1.1).
Mr Caplan:
Yes. That's withdrawn.
Mr Brad Clark
(Stoney Creek): Subsection 13(2.2)? Are we out of order
now?
The Chair:
No. This is an amendment. We'll vote on the amendment and then
we'll go back to the clause as amended.
Mr Clark:
So 13(3.1). Thank you.
The Chair:
Does everybody understand what they're voting on?
Mr Coburn:
The amendment.
The Chair:
The amendment. All in favour? That carries.
We also have number 15,
which is a Liberal motion. That's in your original package.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 13 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same
"(2.2) The plan must
provide for a consultation process, to take place before the
effective date of the transfer of responsibility to the service
manager under section 10, among the service manager and all of
the housing providers in its service area who are affected by the
transfer of responsibility regarding the allocation of the
responsibilities set out in part V."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That does not
carry.
That's section 13. Shall
section 13, as amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Section 14. Shall section
14 carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 15, Liberal motion
number 16.
Mr Caplan: I move that subsection
15(1) of the bill be amended by inserting after "any person" in
the second line "including a housing provider."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Shall section 15 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 16. Shall section
16 carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 17, Liberal motion
number 17. Just a moment now.
Mr Caplan:
I'll withdraw the one that's in the package and I'll substitute
the one that has been provided.
I move that section 17 of
the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:
"Notice to housing
provider
"(2.1) When the service
manager gives the minister written notice that a housing project
is in difficulty as a result of a situation described in clauses
(2)(a), (b), (c) or (d), the service manager shall also give the
housing provider operating the housing project written notice
that the housing project is in difficulty, unless there are
circumstances contributing to the situation that have been
referred to a law enforcement agency."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 17, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Can we deal with sections
18 to 21? Oh, did somebody say 19?
Mr Coburn:
Sections 18, 19 and 20.
The Chair:
We'll deal with sections 18 to 20. Shall those sections carry?
All in favour? Opposed? Sections 18 through to 20 carry.
Section 21, Liberal motion
number 18.
Just a moment, that falls
after 21, so we need to do 21. Sorry.
Shall section 21 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Now we'll deal with 21.1.
Liberal motion.
Mr Caplan:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
after section 21 and before part III:
"Indemnity to housing
provider
"21.1. A service manager
shall indemnify each housing provider operating a housing project
in its service area for any loss incurred by the housing provider
as a result of the decision made or actions taken by the service
manager negligently or in breach of this act or the regulations
in performing its duties or exercising its powers under this
part."
Perfectly reasonable.
The Chair:
Shall section 21.1 carry? All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Sections 22 and 23. Shall
sections 22 and 23 carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 24. That's a
government motion.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subclause 24(1)(a)(iv) of the bill be struck out and
the following substituted:
"(iv) a non-profit housing
corporation that is incorporated under section 13 of the Housing
Development Act and that is controlled by the related service
manager or a related municipality; and"
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? There's no one opposed? That
carries.
Government motion number
20.
1620
Mr Coburn:
I move that subclause 24(2)(a)(iv) of the bill be struck out and
the following substituted:
"(iv) a non-profit housing
corporation that is incorporated under section 13 of the Housing
Development Act and that is controlled by the related service
manager or a related municipality; and"
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed, if any? Carried.
Shall section 24, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 25. Government
motion number 21.
Mr Coburn:
I move that clause 25(b) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"(b) a non-profit housing
corporation that is incorporated under section 13 of the Housing
Development Act and that is controlled by the related service
manager or a related municipality."
The Chair:
All in favour? Opposed? It carries.
Government motion number
22.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 25 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Arrangement
"(2) Despite clause 2(3)(a)
of the Business Corporations Act, a local housing corporation may
amalgamate with a corporation described in clauses (1)(a) or (b)
by way of an arrangement described in clause 182(1)(d) of the
Business Corporations Act."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? Carried.
Shall section 25, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 26. Government
motion number 23.
Mr Coburn:
I move that paragraph 4 of section 26 of the bill be struck out
and the following substituted:
"4. A non-profit housing
corporation that is incorporated under section 13 of the Housing
Development and that is controlled by the related service manager
or a related municipality."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Carried.
Shall section 26, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? It carries.
The Chair:
Do you want to consider sections 27 through 30 as one? All in
favour? Opposed? They carry.
Subsection 31(7).
Government motion number 24.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 31 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Extended application
"(7) If a local housing
corporation to which a housing project was transferred by a
transfer order transfers the housing project to an entity
mentioned in paragraph 3 of subsection 49(2), this section
applies as between the related service manager and the entity with
respect to that housing project."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? Carried.
Shall section 31, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
The next amendment is to
section 36, so we'll go from 32 to 35. Shall sections 32 to 35
carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 36. Liberal motion
number 25.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 36 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Exception, employees
"(2.1) Despite subsection
(2), when a transfer order specifies the date on which a transfer
of employees takes effect, it shall specify a date that is later
than the date the transfer order is made."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
NDP motion number 26.
Ms Lankin:
I move that section 36 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same, employees
"(2.1) For the purposes of
the transfer of an employee, the effective date of the transfer
order is the employee's last date of work for the local housing
authority."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It does not carry.
Shall section 36 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? It carries.
Shall section 37 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? It carries.
Section 38. Government
motion number 27.
Mr Coburn:
I move that clause 38(1)(b) of the bill be amended by striking
out "section 35" at the end and substituting "this act."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? OK.
Section 38. Government
motion number 28.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 38(3) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Exception, personal
property
"(3) Despite subsection
(1), the Lieutenant Governor in Council shall not make an order
rescinding a transfer order that transferred personal property
that is subject to a security interest or amending those
provisions of a transfer order that relate to a transfer of such
personal property, on or after the date on which the secured
party,
"(a) registers a financing
change statement or financing statement in respect of the
transferred personal property under the Personal Property
Security Act that makes the transferee the debtor of record under
that act; or
"(b) takes possession of
the transferred personal property."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? That carries.
Shall section 38, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall sections 39 to 41
inclusive carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
We're now at section 42,
and we have government motion number 29.
Mr Coburn:
I move that paragraph 2 of subsection 42(1) of the bill be
amended by adding the following subparagraph:
"iii.1 specifying the date
on which the transfer took effect, as set out in the transfer
order."
The Chair:
All in favour of that? Opposed, if any? That carries.
Government motion number
30.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 42 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Purpose of form 1
"(4.1) The purpose of the
registration or deposit of a form 1 under subsection (1) is
solely to give notice to the public of the transfer by transfer
order of the real property identify in the form."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? That carries.
Government motion 31.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 42 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Deeming re Planning
Act
"(4.2) If the document
required by subsection (1) is registered or deposited under the
Registry Act or registered under the Land Titles Act, the
document shall be deemed, for the purposes of the Planning Act,
to be a deed or a transfer, as the case may be, containing the
statements described in clauses 50(22)(a), (b) and (c) of the
Planning Act."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Carried.
Shall section 42, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 43. Government
motion 32.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 43 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Re-perfecting security
interest
"(2.1) A security interest
that becomes unperfected under subsection (1) may be perfected
again by registering a financing change statement under the
Personal Property Security Act at any time during the remainder
of the unexpired registration period of the financing statement
or any renewal thereof."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? It carries.
Shall section 43, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 44 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 45. Government
motion number 33.
1630
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 45 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same
"(6.1) No order of the
court is necessary for an action or other proceeding to be
continued under subsection (6).
"Same
"(6.2) The title of an
action or other proceeding that is continued under subsection (6)
shall be amended in accordance with the written notice of the
minister in all documents issued, served or filed in the action
or proceeding after the effective date of the transfer."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? It carries.
Shall section 45, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 46, government
motion number 34.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 46(1) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Representation, etc, by
transferor
"(1) Despite any other act,
a transferor does not make any covenant, representation or
warranty, and no covenant, representation or warranty on the part
of the transferor shall be implied or deemed to have been made,
in respect of any asset, liability, right, obligation or employee
transferred from the transferor by the transfer order."
Ms Lankin:
I just wanted to indicate on this amendment that the
interpretation I've received indicates it would strengthen the
provincial government's defence if municipalities sued because
housing assets were in poor condition, despite any other act. For
that reason, I'll be voting against it.
The Chair:
OK. All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 46, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Ms Lankin:
It was a tie vote, Madam Chair.
The Chair:
I had assumed that it carried. So we'll take the vote again.
Ms Lankin:
The clerk saw, Madam Chair.
The Chair:
Shall section 46 carry?
Ms Lankin:
Madam Chair, the clerk saw and reported to you that only three
government members voted and three opposition members voted.
Mr
O'Toole: I did vote.
Ms Lankin:
You did. Mr Barrett didn't vote. Mr Barrett can confirm that he
didn't vote on that motion.
The Chair:
OK. Section 46 loses.
Ms Lankin:
In a tie you've got to vote, Madam Chair.
Mr
Gerretsen: You have to vote on it, Madam Chair.
The Chair:
Oh, I have to vote.
Ms Lankin:
Then there's the precedent in terms of how the Chair must
vote.
The Chair:
I voted against the amendment, so it loses.
Mr Coburn:
Madam Chair, if that's the case, then the first one that was
deemed not to have been lost-with respect, the Chair should have
voted on that one. It was tied 3-3.
Mr
Gerretsen: It's too late now.
Mr Coburn:
No, it isn't. We want to be consistent with the regs here.
Mr
Gerretsen: Consistent? Your government consistent?
Ms Lankin:
I thought that was 3-2.
Mr Coburn:
It was 3-3.
The Chair:
It wasn't a tie.
Ms Lankin:
That was 3-2. The first one wasn't a tie.
Mr Caplan:
You didn't have everybody here.
The Chair:
OK. There is a little confusion here. If you will permit me one
minute to consult with the clerk, please.
Members of committee, we
have to go back to section 46.
Interjection.
The Chair:
OK. I need another minute.
1640
Members of the committee, I
do beg your indulgence. There was some confusion, and because of
that I would ask that we take the vote over again.
Ms Lankin:
I would understand if you were asking for unanimous consent for
the Chair's vote to be reconsidered, given your confusion as to
whether it was an amendment or a section. But I would not give
unanimous consent to revert to a vote of the whole committee.
The Chair:
OK. Do I have unanimous consent for the Chair to take the vote
again?
Mr Caplan:
For the Chair to vote again?
The Chair:
Yes.
Mr Caplan:
Agreed.
The Chair:
On the section.
Ms Lankin:
As amended.
The Chair:
As amended. I will be voting in favour of the section, as
amended.
Ms Lankin:
Just for the understanding of people observing the process, it is
parliamentary tradition that the Chair votes to keep a section
alive that the House has voted on in second reading. The matter
will go back to the House. If the House is of a different
opinion, it can correct it by taking it into committee of the
whole. That is the reason the Chair is doing this, and not out of
her own opinion with respect to the section. Am I correct?
The Chair:
You're absolutely correct, Ms Lankin, and I do appreciate that
clarification.
Mr
Gerretsen: That's not the way I understood it.
The Chair:
You can make all your decisions when you chair a committee in
camera.
Mr
Gerretsen: Thank you very much.
Mr Clark:
Madam Chair, I seek unanimous consent for Garfield Dunlop to be
subbed in for Carl DeFaria at 5 pm for the remainder of the day.
Currently, Mr O'Toole is here.
The Chair:
Is there unanimous consent? Do I have unanimous consent?
Agreed.
Ms Lankin:
That's the only one you get today.
Interjections.
The Chair:
I should also get unanimous consent from members to pay
attention, especially the government side.
Mr Clark:
On a point of order, Madam Chair: Going back to section 1, when I
first came in and was subbed on, the normal protocol I have
experienced in committees as the question is called is, "Does the
section carry?" I stated, "Carried." You were taking a hand vote,
and you stated that it was declined. That's what happened when I
first came in.
Interjections.
Mr Clark: With respect to the
opposition, at the moment, I'm talking. That's what happened at
the very beginning, Madam Chair, and I'm just asking what the
process is, in terms of looking at exactly what happened in
Hansard, so we can clarify this section and how the vote
transpired. With the votes I've experienced, normally it starts
with a voice vote and then they take the other vote.
The Chair:
No, not on clause-by-clause consideration.
Ms Lankin:
I just want to indicate to Mr Clark that when he reviews Hansard
his memory may be refreshed that as he came in and was about to
sit down, he did actually raise his hand. Because at that time I
commented to him: did he know what he was voting on? That was not
the exact section that was defeated.
Mr Clark:
Madam Chair, she is absolutely correct. It was the next section
and the next vote. The question was, "Does it carry?" I stated,
"Carried." I didn't raise my hand to vote. I stated, "Carried,"
and that's why I'm asking for clarification and that we look at
Hansard.
The Chair:
For clarification, I did ask that you all raise your hands so I
could clearly see if you were voting.
Mr Clark:
You may have done it at the beginning of the meeting. I wasn't
here at the beginning of the meeting.
The Chair:
No, I didn't do that at the beginning. I assumed you knew what
the rules were in terms of voting.
Mr Clark:
I follow the rules as they are followed in other committees.
That's why I'm raising this point, Madam Chair.
Ms Lankin:
It's OK, Brad, you weren't the only one who didn't raise your
hand. It's a moot point.
The Chair:
The motion lost because you didn't put your hand up. You did not
vote on it.
Mr
O'Toole: I agree there was a significant amount of
confusion. It's clear that the government was going to support
its own purpose clause. That's clearly understood. This is a
government committee.
My question is: is it
mandatory that we have to have a raised hand vote? I am
questioning the clerk, not you. Like Mr Clark said, I believe a
voice vote is normally how I have voted in committees-"Agreed,"
and that's the end of it. If there is some dispute, there's a
recorded vote or something like that. So I question not you but
the clerk, and I want a ruling on that from the clerk, not from
the Chair.
Ms Lankin:
It's already been ruled on.
Mr Caplan:
The Chair ruled.
Mr
O'Toole: I want the clerk's interpretation of that.
Through the Chair, to the clerk: is it the custom that it's
usually a voice vote?
Clerk of the
Committee: The Chair has made a ruling.
Mr
O'Toole: And the Chair is ruling that it must be a hand
vote.
The Chair:
Mr O'Toole, please don't get into an argument with the clerk. Go
through the Chair.
Mr
O'Toole: I have.
The Chair:
I have made a ruling on this matter.
Mr
O'Toole: Who did?
The Chair:
I have made a ruling on this matter-
Mr
O'Toole: I just want that for the record too. That's
important.
The Chair:
-and I have already specifically stated to every member of
committee to please make sure you raise your hand so I can see
that you are voting.
Mr
O'Toole: Chair, I am not disagreeing with you and I am
not being belligerent, but I have not heard that instruction
until now. I have heard, "Raise your hand," but I have not heard
it as an instruction to the committee. So there was confusion at
the beginning, as Mr Clark has pointed out and as I have pointed
out. I was subbed on, and I am not used to voting by raising my
hand. Normally it's a voice vote and that's the way it goes,
unless it's a recorded vote.
Mr
Gerretsen: For the record, Madam Chair, it was not the
first item we voted on in this committee. The very first item we
voted on was the Liberal amendment dealing with the definition of
a tenant or member. That was the very first section, and then we
started with number one.
Ms Lankin:
In the interest of being accurate, we actually voted on section
125 first.
Mr
Gerretsen: Yes.
Mr
O'Toole: I think the point has been made that really the
best intentions here were that members of the government would
have supported the government purpose clause. Would you agree to
that?
Mr
Gerretsen: I don't know. You're all individual members
here. Maybe you had some reason for not supporting it. I don't
know.
The Chair:
If we have unanimous consent, you could go back and do the vote
again.
Ms Lankin:
Perhaps when we get to the end of this, we might have a
discussion, as long as Mr O'Toole stays to the very end of
this.
Mr
Gerretsen: He's not going to be here to the end.
Ms Lankin:
I know. I just wanted to ruin the rest of his day. If John stays
right to the very end, I'll give unanimous consent to go back to
that section.
The Chair:
Members of committee, you all seem to be co-operating quite
nicely. I suggest we go back to section 47.
Mr Caplan:
Sections 47 and 48?
The Chair:
Can we do a vote on 47 and 48 inclusive? Shall they carry? All in
favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 49. We have
government motion number 35.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subparagraph 3 iv of subsection 49(2) of the bill be
struck out and the following substituted:
"iv. a non-profit housing
corporation that is incorporated under section 13 of the Housing
Developing Act and that is controlled by the related service
manager or a related municipality."
The Chair:
All in favour of that?
Interjections: Carried.
The Chair: All in favour of
that?
Mr Toby Barrett
(Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): We said, "Carried." Did you
want a hand vote?
The Chair:
I want a hand vote for everything, please. Opposed? That
carries.
Section 49. Government
motion number 36.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 49(5) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Evidence
"(5) A statement described
in subsection (3) that is included in a document registered or
deposited as described in that subsection shall be deemed to be
conclusive evidence of the facts stated in it."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 49, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? Carried.
Shall section 50 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 51. NDP motion
number 37.
Ms Lankin:
I move that paragraph 1 of subsection 51(8) of the bill be
amended by striking out "the employee shall be deemed to have
resigned from employment" in the second and third lines and
substituting "the employment of the employee shall be deemed to
have been terminated."
1650
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Liberal motion number 38;
Mr Caplan.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 51(8) of the bill be amended by:
"(a) striking out paragraph
1; and
"(b) amending paragraph 2
by striking out `For the purposes of the Employment Standards
Act, the employment of the employee shall be deemed to have been
terminated by the local housing authority' at the beginning and
substituting `For the purposes of the Employment Standards Act,
an employment contract or a collective agreement, the employment
of the employee shall be deemed to have been terminated by the
local housing authority.'"
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry. Is it
a lot of effort for you to raise your hand, Mr O'Toole?
Interjection.
The Chair:
NDP motion number 39; Ms Lankin. This is on subsection 51.
Ms Lankin:
It's a government motion number 39 first.
The Chair:
No, not according to my-I have NDP motion number 39, dealing with
51(9), paragraph 2.
Ms Lankin:
OK, I have them in reverse order. Mr Coburn, just to understand
the next motion that the Chair has, which is government motion
number 40, as I understand it, deals with paragraphs 2 and 3 of
subsection 51(9) of the bill. Is that correct?
Mr Coburn:
Yes.
Ms Lankin:
And it's your intent to pass that?
Mr Coburn:
Right.
Ms Lankin:
OK. Can I indicate then that NDP motion 39, which has the same
effect as the government's motion dealing with employee benefits,
will be withdrawn on the word that the government's motion will
be carried.
The Chair:
That's fine.
Then we'll move to
government motion number 40, Mr Coburn.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 51(9) of the bill be amended by:
"(a) striking out paragraph
2; and
"(b) amending paragraph 3
by striking out `except those mentioned in paragraph 2.'"
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Then we have NDP motion
number 41, subsection 51(9).
Ms Lankin:
I move that paragraph 3 of subsection 51(9) of the bill be
amended by adding the following sentence at the end:
"However, each transferred
employee is entitled to receive a severance payment in an amount
that is not less than the amount to which he or she is otherwise
entitled under the collective agreement, if any, that applies
with respect to the employee at the time of the transfer."
The Chair:
OK, all in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't
carry.
We have Liberal motion
number 42, Mr Caplan.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 51(9) of the bill be amended by adding the
following paragraph:
"13.1 Subparagraphs 13 i,
ii and iii also apply if a grievance is filed by or on behalf of
a transferred employee after the effective date of the transfer
and concerns the employee's rights or entitlements against the
transferor."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Ms Lankin:
Madam Chair?
The Chair:
Sorry, Mr Prins was whispering in my ear.
Ms Lankin:
I just wanted to understand that maybe there's a couple of these
that seem to be in reverse order in my package. I had that as
Liberal motion 43 and that we missed government motion 42.
Perhaps, Madam Chair, you could just clarify for me. I realize
I'm looking at that as well.
The Chair:
The package that's on your desk I am told is actually in order,
Ms Lankin. Is that the one-
Ms Lankin:
I'm working from two at this point in time.
The Chair:
OK, it's the one that was placed on your desk.
Mr Caplan:
Yes, Frances, look at 45.
The Chair:
That's the one that I'm going from.
Ms Lankin:
Thank you. That clarifies it.
The Chair:
So 42: we took the vote and it lost.
Number 43 is a Liberal
motion.
Mr Caplan:
I move that paragraph 14 of subsection 51(9) of the bill be
amended by adding at the beginning "Except as set out in paragraph 13.1 or in
subsection (10.1)."
The Chair:
I'm ruling this one out of order because it is dependent on the
one that just lost.
Mr Caplan:
No, it also references subsection (10.1), which is live.
Ms
Gottheil: Section 13.1 is out of order.
Mr Caplan:
Section 13.1, but subsection (10.1) is still in order.
The Chair:
So you're amending the amendment, then?
Mr Caplan:
It's only this way because the last one failed. But yes, it would
be-
The Chair:
We'll take a vote on it, then. All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? It doesn't carry.
Mr Caplan:
It may in a minute, though.
The Chair:
I'm sorry. I'm not laughing that it doesn't carry.
NDP motion number 44. Ms
Lankin, do you have that in front of you? That deals with
paragraph 14 of 51(9).
Ms Lankin:
I move that paragraph 14 of subsection 51(9) of the bill be
struck out and the following substituted:
"14. A transferred employee
and a trade union that represents a transferred employee
immediately before the effective date of the transfer has the
right to file a grievance on or after the effective date of the
transfer with respect to any matter that arose before the
effective date of the transfer."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Government motion numbers
45 and 46.
Mr Coburn:
I move that paragraphs 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 of subsection 51(9)
of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:
"10. Subject to paragraph
11, a trade union that has bargaining rights in respect of any of
the transferred employees immediately before the effective date
of the transfer ceases, as of the effective date of the transfer,
to have any rights, interests, registrations, duties or
liabilities under the Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act,
1993 or under any collective agreement between the transferor and
the trade union.
"11. A trade union that has
bargaining rights in respect of any of the transferred employees
immediately before the effective date of the transfer continues
to represent the transferred employees for the purpose of
proceedings before the Ontario Labour Relations Board and
grievances, as described in paragraph 12.
"12. If a grievance is
filed by or on behalf of a transferred employee against the
transferor, or a grievance is filed by or on behalf of the
transferor, or a proceeding before the Ontario Labour Relations
Board is commenced by or on behalf of a transferred employee
against the transferor, or a proceeding before the Ontario Labour
Relations Board is commenced by or on behalf of the transferor,
before the effective date of the transfer, and the grievance or
proceeding is not resolved before that date,
"i. the grievance or
proceeding is continued by or against the transferee,
"ii. all rights,
obligations and liabilities of the employer as a result of the
grievance or proceeding vest in or bind the transferee and not
the transferor, except as otherwise specified by paragraph 6,
"iii. upon the resolution
of the grievance or proceeding, the transferee does not have any
obligations to a trade union or to the transferred employees
under the Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act, 1993 or
under a collective agreement between the transferor and a trade
union, and
"iv. upon the resolution of
all grievances and proceedings under this paragraph, a trade
union that had the right under paragraph 11 to continue to
represent transferred employees for the purpose of such
grievances and proceedings ceases to have any such right.
"13. No transferred
employee, and no trade union that represents a transferred
employee immediately before the effective date of the transfer,
has the right on or after the effective date of the transfer to
file a grievance under the collective agreement that is in force
immediately before the effective date of the transfer with
respect to any matter, regardless of whether the matter arose
before or arises on or after the effective date of the
transfer.
"14. Paragraph 13 does not
limit the rights or duties of a trade union that acquires
bargaining rights in respect of any of the transferred employees
on or after the effective date of the transfer, as contemplated
by clause (10)(c), to represent its members."
1700
Mr
Gerretsen: How many government members does it take to
vote on an amendment here? I saw six bodies moving around
there.
The Chair:
They're entitled.
Mr
Gerretsen: Are they all constitutionally subbed in?
The Chair:
They have notified the clerk and they are constitutionally subbed
in. I would remind those who are constitutionally subbed in, as I
have reminded existing members, to please, when you vote, raise
your hand. I won't say it again.
Government amendment, pages
45 and 46. All in favour? Opposed? It carries.
Liberal motion number
47.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 51 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"All union rights apply
"(10.1) A trade union that
acquires bargaining rights as contemplated by clause (10)(c) has
all of the rights, duties and obligations of a trade union under
the Labour Relations Act."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
NDP motion number 48.
Ms Lankin:
This motion is verbatim to the Liberal motion that was just
defeated. Therefore, I'll withdraw it.
The Chair:
Government motion 48.5. Mr Coburn, do you have that in front of
you?
Mr Coburn: That says "Subsection
51(11) of the bill"?
The Chair:
Yes.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 51(11) of the bill be amended by striking
out "the earlier of the date the local housing corporation was
incorporated and" near the end.
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
NDP motion number 49,
package two.
Ms Lankin:
I move that section 51 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same
"(12) For the purposes of
the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System, the
transferred employees are entitled to immediate credit under the
system for their service with the transferor as if it had been
service with the transferee."
The Chair:
All in favour of that? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Shall section 51, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 52, government
motion number 50.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsections 52(1),(2) and (3) of the bill be amended
by striking out "local housing authority" wherever it occurs and
substituting in each case "transferor."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Government motion number
51.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 52(5) of the bill be amended by striking
out "from a transferor other than a local housing authority or
transfers it."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 52, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 53.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 53(1) of the bill be amended by striking
out "local housing authority" wherever it occurs and substituting
"transferor."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? Carried.
Shall section 53, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 54 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion-this is a
new section, so we'll deal with section 55 first.
Shall section 55 carry?
All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Now we move to section
55.1, Liberal motion 53.
Mr Caplan:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
after section 55:
"Employee records
"55.1 If a provincial
document or any other record in the custody or under the control
of the minister, the Ontario Housing Corp or a local housing
authority concerns an employee who has been transferred by a
transfer order, the provincial document or the record shall not
be transferred or disclosed in any manner to a service manager, a
local housing corporation or any other transferee, without the
consent of the transferred employee."
The Chair:
All in favour? Opposed? That does not carry-although I think some
members of the government are getting carried away.
On section 56, NDP motion
54.
Ms Lankin:
I move that section 56 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Restriction
"(2) A document under the
control of the province concerning an employee of the transferor
shall not be transferred to a service manager, transferee or
local housing corporation unless the prior written consent of the
employee to the transfer has been obtained."
The Chair:
All in favour? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Shall section 56 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall sections 57 and 58,
inclusive, carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 59, government
motion 55.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subparagraph 2 iv of subsection 59(2) of the bill be
struck out and the following substituted:
"iv. a non-profit housing
corporation that is incorporated under section 13 of the Housing
Development Act and that is controlled by the related service
manager or a related municipality."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It carries.
Shall section 59, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 60, government
motion 56. Mr Coburn?
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 60 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsections:
"Same
"(2) If a local housing
corporation transfers to an entity mentioned in subparagraph 2 of
subsection 59(2) pursuant to an agreement of all the assets,
liabilities, rights and obligations that were transferred to the
local housing corporation by a transfer order.
"(a) all of the
restrictions and conditions that applied to the transfer to the
local housing corporation by the transfer order apply to the
transfer by the local housing corporation, and
"(b) subsection 33(3),
section 35, subsections 45(2), (3), (4) and (7), section 47,
subsection 49(1) and paragraphs 1, 2 and 4 of subsection 49(2)
apply, with necessary modifications, to the transfer by the local
housing corporation.
"Same
"(3) Subsection 33(3),
section 35, subsections 45(2), (3), (4) and (7), section 47,
subsection 49(1) and paragraphs 1, 2 and 4 of subsection 49(2)
apply, with necessary modifications, to a transfer by an entity
mentioned in subparagraph 2 iii or iv of subsection 59(2)
pursuant to an agreement of all of its assets, liabilities,
rights and obligations
to a local housing corporation in the same service area."
The Chair:
I think he deserves a round of applause for that.
All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Shall section 60, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
All in favour of section
61? Opposed? That carries.
On section 61.1 we have
government motion 57.
1710
Mr Coburn:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following
section:
"Supportive housing
provider
"61.1 A provision of this
part that applies to a supportive housing provider applies to the
supportive housing provider only with respect to the units that
are special needs housing in the housing projects operated by
it."
The Chair:
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
I understand that we need
to deal with Liberal motion 59 before we deal with government
motion 58. Mr Caplan.
Mr Caplan:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
after section 61:
"Authorized delegation of
functions
"61.1 For greater
certainty, any of the functions of a service manager under this
part may be performed by another person or housing provider who
is authorized to do so under section 14 or 15."
The Chair:
All in favour? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
On section 61.2, government
motion 58. Mr Coburn?
Mr Coburn:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following
section:
"Service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency
"61.2 Where subsections
68(1) or (2), 69(1), (2), (4) or (5), 69.1(1), (2) (3) or (4),
70(1), (2), (3), (4) or (5), 77(2) or 85(1.1) or (4) refers to a
service manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency, it
shall be interpreted in accordance with the following rules:
"1. If a lead agency is
designated for the service area, the provision shall be deemed to
apply only to the lead agency, and not to the service manager or
a supportive housing provider.
"2. If a lead agency is not
designated for the service area and a regulation is in force
specifying that the provision applies to a supportive housing
provider, the provision shall be deemed to apply only to a
supportive housing provider and not to the service manager or
lead agency.
"3. If a lead agency is not
designated for the service area and no regulation is in force
specifying that the provision applies to a supportive housing
provider the provision shall be deemed apply only to the service
manager, and not to a supportive housing provider or lead
agency."
The Chair:
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
On section 61.2, we have
Liberal motion 60.
Mr Caplan:
I move the bill be amended by adding the following section after
section 61:
"Administration of
rent-geared-to-income programs
"Role of housing
providers
"61.2 (1) Despite any other
provision of this act or of a transfer order made under this act,
each housing provider shall administer the rent-geared-to-income
program at each housing project of the housing provider except as
provided in this section.
"Duties of service
manager
"(2) If the administration
of a rent-geared-to-income program at a housing project is
transferred to a service manager by a transfer order, the service
manager must do the following things before the transfer takes
effect
"1. Prepare a business case
with respect to the program that takes into account the costs of
the program and client service under the program.
"2. Consult with the
housing providers affected by the program with respect to the
administration of the program.
"Transfer
"(3) After the service
manager does the things required by subsection (2), the transfer
order takes effect and the housing provider shall administer the
rent-geared-to-income program at each housing project of the
housing provider in accordance with the arrangements developed in
consultation with the service manager."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It doesn't carry.
OK, now where do we go
next? There's no amendments for 62, 63 and 64, so we'll deal with
those inclusive.
Shall those sections carry?
All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
The Chair:
Now we'll go to section 65. Liberal motion number 61.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 65 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Waiting lists for each
housing project
"(1.1) If a centralized
waiting list is established for all designated housing projects
in a service area, the service manager shall maintain a
subsidiary waiting list for each of the designated housing
projects."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It doesn't carry.
Mr Caplan:
It did carry.
The Chair:
I'm sorry. That carries.
Section 65, Liberal motion
number 62.
Mr Caplan:
In the spirit of co-operation-
The Chair:
That does carry, by the way, the last one.
Mr Caplan:
Thank you. I look forward to this one carrying, too.
I move that section 65 of
the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:
"Transition waiting
lists
"(1.2) If, before the
service manager establishes a waiting list, the housing provider
for a housing project has maintained a waiting list for the
project, the housing provider may continue to fill vacancies from the
housing provider's waiting list until the list is exhausted."
This was one of the
recommendations from Bethany Co-op, I believe, in Keswick.
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It doesn't carry.
Liberal motion number
63.
Mr Caplan:
Perhaps this one will get all the support.
I move that section 65 of
the bill be amended by adding the following subsections:
"Coordination
"(7) The service manager
shall establish a system to coordinate access to
rent-geared-to-income units in the designated housing projects in
the service manager's service area and the system must include
the following elements:
"1. A common application
form for rent-geared-to-income assistance.
"2. Information to be made
available to the public about social housing projects in the
specific area.
"3. A one-time-only check
of the eligibility of a household for rent-geared-to-income
assistance, other than the verification of the income of the
members of the household.
"Duty to consult
"(8) Before establishing
the system to coordinate access to rent-geared-to-income units,
the service manager shall consult with the designated housing
providers concerning the design of the system.
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Ms Lankin:
I wonder if I might request the consideration of the committee
for a brief five-minute recess and ask at that time, given that
we're likely to be here past 6 o'clock, that some hot coffee be
brought in.
The Chair:
OK. Can we just deal with section 65 and then do that?
Shall section 65, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
We have a request for a
five-minute recess.
The committee recessed
from 1719 to 1727.
The Chair:
Shall sections 66 and 67, inclusive, carry? All in favour?
Opposed? They carry.
Section 68, government
motion number 64.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 68 of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Application for special
needs housing
"68(1) A member of a
household who wishes to have special needs housing in a
designated housing project of a service manager may apply in
accordance with this section to the service manager, to a
supportive housing provider or, if a lead agency is designated
for the service area, to the lead agency.
"Same
"(2) The application must
contain such information and documents as may be prescribed or as
may be required by the service manager, supportive housing
provider or lead agency and must be submitted in a form approved
by the service manager, supportive housing provider or lead
agency."
The Chair:
I have a request for a comment.
Mr Caplan:
Very quickly, there are many sections of this bill which are
objectionable, but the whole special-needs housing to be placed
into this bill and the management of it is really madness. I hope
members of the government would understand that this is not
something they should do. It's really rife with peril and danger.
Enough said.
The Chair:
A further comment?
Ms Lankin:
Just to indicate that for the same reasons as stated, I'll be
voting against the section.
This particular amendment,
however, allows an applicant to apply to a supportive housing
provider, not just the lead agency or the service manager. In a
very bad section, this is a minimal improvement, so I'll vote in
favour of the amendment but against the section.
The Chair:
All in favour of the amendment? That carries.
Shall section 68, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 69, Liberal motion
number 65.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 69(4) of the bill be amended by adding at
the end "at the time that the housing is first allocated to the
household."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Liberal motion number
66.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 69(6) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Same
"(6) If a decision under
this section affects a housing provider or a designated housing
project or a client of a support service agency, the service
manager or lead agency shall also notify the housing provider or
client, as the case may be, about the decision."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Government motion
67-68.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 69 of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Eligibility for special
needs housing
"69(1) A service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency, as the case may be,
shall determine whether a household that applies for special
needs housing in a designated housing project of the service
manager is eligible for it.
"Same, continued
eligibility
"(2) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall periodically
determine whether each household occupying special needs housing
in a designated housing project of the service manager continues
to be eligible for it.
"Eligibility rules
"(3) The decisions required
by this section shall be made in accordance with such eligibility
rules as may be established under this act for special needs
housing.
"Duty
"(4) A service manager, supportive housing provider
or lead agency shall ensure that special needs housing is given
to only those households that are eligible for it.
"Notice
"(5) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall give written
notice to the household of its decisions under this section and
shall do so in accordance with such requirements as may be
prescribed.
"Same
"(6) If a decision by a
service manager or lead agency under this section affects a
housing provider operating a designated housing project, the
service manager or lead agency shall also notify the housing
provider about the decision."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 69, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 69.1, government
motion 69-70.
Mr Coburn:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following
section:
"Type of accommodation
"69.1(1) If a household
applies for special needs housing and rent-geared-to-income
assistance in a designated housing project of a service manager,
the service manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency,
as the case may be, shall determine what type of accommodation is
permissible for the household.
"Same
"(2) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall periodically
determine whether the accommodation occupied by a household
residing in special needs housing in a designated housing project
of the service manager and paying geared-to-income rent continues
to be permissible accommodation for the household.
"Criteria and
procedures
"(3) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall make the
decisions required by this section in accordance with such
occupancy standards as may be established under this act.
"Notice
"(4) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall give written
notice to the household of its decisions under this section, and
shall do so in accordance with such requirements as may be
prescribed.
"Same
"(5) If a decision by a
service manager or lead agency under this section affects a
housing provider operating a designated housing project, the
service manager or lead agency shall also notify the housing
provider about the decision.
"Non-application of
s.64
"(6) Section 64 does not
apply if this section applies."
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? It carries.
Section 70, government
motion 71-72.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 70 of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Waiting list for special
needs housing
"70(1) A service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency, as the case may be,
shall establish and administer one or more waiting lists for
special-needs housing in the designated housing projects of the
service manager, and shall do so in accordance with such
requirements as may be prescribed.
"Eligibility
"(2) A household is
eligible to be included on a waiting list if the service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency has determined that
the household is eligible for special-needs housing in a
designated housing project of the service manager and if the
household is awaiting accommodation in, or a transfer to, such a
housing project.
"Category
"(3) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall determine what
category within a waiting list the household is to be included
in, and shall do so in accordance with such requirements as may
be prescribed for special-needs housing.
"Rank
"(4) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall rank the
households on the waiting list or lists, and shall do so in
accordance with such priority rules as may be established under
this act with respect to special-needs housing.
"Notice
"(5) The service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency shall give written
notice to a household about whether the household is included on
a waiting list and what category the household is listed in, and
shall do so in accordance with such requirements as may be
prescribed.
"Same
"(6) If a decision by a
service manager or lead agency under this section affects a
housing provider operating a designated housing project, the
service manager or lead agency shall also notify the housing
provider about the decision.
"Provision of
information
"(7) A service manager
shall, in accordance with such requirements as may be prescribed,
provide applicants for special needs housing with information
pertaining to the availability of special-needs housing in its
service area.
"Request for
information
"(8) A service manager may
request supportive housing providers and lead agencies in its
service area to provide it with such information as it considers
necessary to enable it to provide the information referred to in
subsection (7), and each supportive housing provider and lead
agency shall comply with such a request."
The Chair:
All in favour of those amendments? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 70, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 71. NDP motion
73.
Ms Lankin: I move that paragraph 8
of subsection 71(3) of the bill be amended by adding the
following sentence at the end:
"The rule must provide
that, when a household goes into arrears after its assistance is
removed or reduced or after charges are deferred, the service
manager shall pay to the housing provider an amount equal to the
assistance that has been removed or the full market housing
charge for the household's unit until the housing provider
regains possession of the unit. The rule must also provide that,
when a geared-to-income occupant vacates a unit or goes into
arrears, the assistance paid by the service manager to the
housing provider for that unit continues until the unit is
filled."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Shall section 71 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall sections 72 through
to 75 inclusive carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 75.1. Government
motion 74.
Mr Coburn:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
before section 76 and immediately after the heading "Decisions
and Internal Review":
"Opportunity to comment
"75.1 Before a service
manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency makes a
decision that is adverse to a household and that may be reviewed
under section 77, it shall, subject to such restrictions and
requirements as may be prescribed, give the members of the
household an opportunity to comment on any information that, in
the opinion of the decision-maker, may form a significant basis
for the decision."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Section 76: Ms Lankin, we
have to reverse the order of the two amendments. We need to hear
government amendment 76 first.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 76 of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Notice to household
"76 When giving a household
notice of a decision that may be reviewed under section 77, the
service manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency shall
tell the household that any member of the household is entitled
to request a review, and shall include information on how to make
such a request and the deadline for doing so."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It carries.
NDP motion 75.
Ms Lankin:
The intent of NDP motion 75 is the same as the motion the
government just put forward, so I will withdraw that.
The Chair:
That is withdrawn.
Shall section 76, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 77. Government
motions 77 and 78.
1740
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 77 of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Internal review
"77(1) A member of a
household may request an internal review of any of the following
decisions of a service manager, supportive housing provider or
lead agency:
"1. A decision that the
household is ineligible for rent-geared-to-income assistance.
"2. A decision that the
household is ineligible for special needs housing.
"3. A decision respecting
the type of accommodation in which the household may be
accommodated.
"4. A decision respecting
the category into which the household has been placed on a
waiting list.
"5. A decision respecting
the amount of geared-to-income rent payable by the household.
"6. A decision respecting a
deferral of geared-to-income rent payable by the household.
"Request for internal
review
"(2) The request for an
internal review must be made in accordance with such requirements
as may be prescribed or, if none are prescribed, in accordance
with such requirements as may be established by the service
manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 77, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 78 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 79. Government
amendment 79.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 79(1) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"When decision takes
effect
"(1) A decision by a
service manager under section 63, 64, 65, 66, 69, 69.1 or 70 or a
decision of a supportive housing provider or lead agency under
section 69, 69.1 or 70 is effective from the date specified by
the service manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency,
whether that date is before, on or after the date the decision
was made."
Ms Lankin:
I'm seeking clarification from the parliamentary assistant. It
appears to me, given that this leads back to sections that deal
with the hearings and process, that you're essentially allowing a
retroactive decision, irrespective of what goes on in those
hearings, whether or not there is a finding of an illegal act or
a finding of some kind of deceit or fraud that has taken place.
Could you clarify your intent with respect to that kind of
retroactive application of the decision?
Mr Coburn:
This is consequential to the motion to amend section 68, if you
would refer back to that.
Ms Lankin:
It does, however, provide retroactivity in the application of the
decision.
Mr Coburn:
If I could just take a moment, I want to make sure.
Ms Lankin: Thank you. I genuinely
am seeking clarification. That's what it appears.
Mr Coburn:
With your indulgence, Madam Chair, I'd like to get confirmation
on that.
Mr Clark:
Madam Chair, while they're doing that, I'd like to seek unanimous
consent for Wayne Wettlaufer to sub in for Garry Guzzo from 6 pm
until the end of the day.
Mr
Gerretsen: Mr Guzzo isn't here. How can Mr Wettlaufer
sub for Mr Guzzo?
Mr Clark:
He's a regular member.
The Chair:
Is there unanimous consent for Mr Wettlaufer to sit in for Mr
Guzzo from 6 pm? That's fine, Mr Clark.
Mr Coburn:
For clarification, there's the addition of "supportive housing
provider."
Ms Lankin:
I realize that. The entire section, however, does allow for
retroactivity of the application of the decision. Am I
correct?
Mr Coburn:
It's my understanding, yes.
Ms Lankin:
I am in agreement that it's a good idea to add "supportive
housing provider" to the language. The language is bad. I will be
voting against this amendment, because I think the principle of
retroactivity that the government is supporting is unfortunate
when there is nothing in the preceding sections referred to here
that requires a finding of guilt or an illegal act or problem;
it's simply finding an ineligibility. I think that application of
retroactivity is problematic as a concept in law.
The Chair:
Further comment? We will take amendment number 79. All in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 79 as amended
carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 80 and 81
inclusive. All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 82. Liberal
amendment number 80.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 82 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection as subsection (1):
"Agreement with housing
provider
"(1) Subject to subsections
15(2), (3), (5), (6), (9), (10) and (11), a service manager and a
housing provider may enter into an agreement providing for the
housing provider to perform all or some of the duties or exercise
all or some of the powers of the service manager under Part V as
they apply to a designated housing project."
The Chair:
All in favour of the amendment? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Shall section 82 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 83 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Ms Lankin?
Ms Lankin:
Before we move to the next amendment, I notice the bells are
ringing for a vote, and I believe we should be adjourning to go
to vote. I just want to ask the parliamentary assistant his
intentions. We as a committee have permission to sit beyond 6,
and I understand there is willingness to sit beyond 6. Is it your
intention to deal with all amendments tonight, or do we have some
time frame we're looking at tonight, for example, 9 or 9:30?
Mr Coburn:
We'd like to deal with all amendments tonight. Hopefully it will
be done before 9.
Ms Lankin:
Perhaps this is something that, when we come back-if we have
permission, we still need to have the committee agree to sit
beyond 6. As I understand it, perhaps we could deal with this in
blocks, perhaps two hours at a time so we can gauge where we are.
I'm more than willing to stay to try to accomplish it
tonight.
If there appears to be no
opportunity to accomplish it tonight, then I think we should talk
about what other accommodations might be made. My hope also would
be that we could finish it tonight. You might want to give some
thought to that when we come back, and we can set some time
frames which we can review it as the evening goes on.
Mr Coburn:
Our position is that we'd like to finish it tonight. When do we
come back at-Madam Chair, I think you suggested 6:30?
The Chair:
I think there was some agreement to return here at 6:30. It gives
you a chance to-
Mr
Gerretsen: You need unanimous consent for that, don't
you?
Ms Lankin:
I wasn't aware of an agreement to return at 6:30.
The Chair:
Sorry, Ms Lankin. There was some discussion about that. I thought
it had been discussed.
Ms Lankin:
I would have thought we would just come back and keep on
going.
Mr Coburn:
That's an option too.
The Chair:
What is the wish of the committee?
Ms Lankin:
That would be preferable. I understand it's difficult, and I
don't know whether sandwiches or something can be brought down to
accommodate that. I have commitments in my community at the other
end of the evening, and I want to stay and get this done. If we
can avoid losing that half hour, that makes it easier.
Mr Coburn:
Madam Chair, we're flexible here. We'd like to finish it tonight.
So whether we start at 6:30 or right after is-
The Chair:
Is it the wish of committee to come straight back then, perhaps
pick up a sandwich or whatever from your caucus room and bring it
down and we proceed as we eat?
Mr
Gerretsen: We have no problem sitting up until 9
o'clock, but that's sort of the limit.
Ms Lankin:
Well, let's see where we can get to by then.
The Chair:
OK. We'll see where we get to then. We're coming straight back
after the vote?
Mr
Gerretsen: Well, can we grab a sandwich? Shall we say
6:10 for argument's sake?
The Chair:
Sure, I'm not going to begrudge you five minutes.
The committee recessed
from 1750 to 1820.
The Chair:
I call the meeting to order. Mr Coburn.
Mr Coburn:
I'd like unanimous consent to sub Mr DeFaria back on to
committee.
The Chair: Agreed? Agreed. Mr
DeFaria is now a member.
Ms Lankin:
I would like unanimous consent to call back a motion that I
withdrew earlier. It's NDP motion 75 dealing with subsections
76(2) and (3).
The Chair:
Is there unanimous consent to open the section? Agreed.
Ms Lankin:
And to put NDP motion 75.
The Chair:
NDP motion number 75. This is the one that I changed the-
Ms Lankin:
-the order in, and it was my mistake when that happened. I moved
on to the next page and mistakenly withdrew this one, which is
one that the government has indicated support for.
The Chair:
Fine. Then we'll deal with section 76. NDP motion number 75.
Ms Lankin:
Thank you. I move that section 76 of the bill be amended by
adding the following subsections:
"Notice to housing
provider
"(2) The service manager or
lead agency shall notify the housing provider of any decision
that may affect the housing provider and that may be reviewed
under section 77 and of the review process available to members
of a household in respect of the decision.
"Same
"(3) If a member of a
household requests a review under section 77 of a decision that
may affect a housing provider, the service manager or lead agency
shall notify the housing provider of the details of the
request."
The Chair:
All in favour? That carries.
We'll now just deal with
section 76. Shall section 76, as amended, carry? All in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
We'll move forward to
section 84. Government motion number 81.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 84(2) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Termination
"(2) If the minister, after
consulting with the parties to a referral agreement, forms the
opinion that the agreement should be terminated, the Lieutenant
Governor in Council may make a regulation terminating the
agreement on the date prescribed in the regulation.
"Amendment
"(3) After consulting with
the parties to a referral agreement, the minister or the service
manager may amend a referral agreement if the amendments are made
in accordance with the prescribed rules."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 84, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
On section 84.1. Liberal
motion 82-83.
Mr Caplan:
I move that the bill be amended by adding the following section
after section 84:
"Termination of certain
referral agreements, housing co-ops.
"84.1(1) In this
section,
"`referral agreement' means
an agreement, memorandum of understanding, letter of commitment
or a combination of any of them (whether oral or written) that is
entered into by a housing provider before the date on which
responsibility for a housing project is transferred under section
10 and that gives a right to a person other than the housing
provider to control access to special needs housing within the
housing project.
"Postponement
"(2) Despite the
termination of an operating agreement under subsection 86(2),
sections 68 to 70 do not have effect in a designated housing
project until the date on which the minister determines that the
new regime for administering special needs housing, including
special needs housing provided pursuant to an operating agreement
described in paragraph 2 of subsection 86(2) is established.
"Same
"(3) Until sections 68 to
70 have effect, the administration of special needs housing for a
housing project shall be carried out in accordance with the
referral agreement, if any, or any existing arrangements relating
to the housing project.
"Same
"(4) Every referral
agreement relating to a housing project within the service area
of a service manager is terminated when sections 68 to 70 begin
to have effect in the housing project.
"Same
"(5) When a referral
agreement is terminated under subsection (4), any rights of the
parties arising out of the operating agreement that are
attributable to matters that occurred before the termination of
the operating agreement are preserved.
"Same
"(6) Despite subsection
(4), if a matter is addressed under a referral agreement or an
existing arrangement and it is not addressed under the new regime
for administering special needs housing, the referral agreement
or existing arrangement remains in effect with respect to the
matter. However, the parties to the agreement or arrangement
shall amend it within a reasonable time so that it is consistent
with the new regime for administering special needs housing."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Section 85. Government
motion number 84.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 85 of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Application procedures
"85(1) A service manager
shall establish procedures governing applications for
rent-geared-to-income assistance.
"Same
"(1.1) A service manager,
supportive housing provider or lead agency, as the case may be,
shall establish procedures governing applications for special
needs housing.
"Same
"(2) The application
procedures may include rules providing for transitional matters
in connection with the procedures.
"Same
"(3) The application
procedures take effect on the day specified by the service
manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency.
"Same
"(4) In establishing
application procedures for special needs housing, the service
manager, supportive housing provider or lead agency shall comply
with such regulations as may be made by the minister governing
their establishment."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 85, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 86 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 87. Government
motion number 85.
Mr Coburn:
I move that section 87 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same
"(1.1) This part ceases to
apply to a housing project on the date the duty to pay a subsidy
to the housing project is terminated under subsection 97(2)."
Ms Lankin:
Can I just ask the parliamentary assistant to give us an
explanation of this amendment, please?
Mr Coburn:
This provides clarification that ensures that part VI
requirements cease to apply to a housing provider on that date
and that the service manager is no longer required to provide
funding.
Ms Lankin:
The part VI requirement is what?
Mr Coburn:
One moment. Wait till I go back in my data.
Ms Lankin:
OK.
Mr Coburn:
Part VI is coming back to me now. It's the operative framework.
It applies to co-operative housing.
Ms Lankin:
Thank you.
The Chair:
All in favour of that amendment? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 87, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 88. Government
motion number 86.
Mr Coburn:
I move that clause 88(2)(c) and (d) of the bill be struck out and
the following substituted:
"(c) the housing provider's
participation in a waiting list system established for the
service area by the service manager for rent-geared-to-income
assistance or a waiting list system established for the service
area by the service manager or a lead agency for special-needs
housing;
"(d) the housing provider's
compliance with eligibility rules, occupancy standards and
priority rules established under part V for the service area,
including those established with respect to special-needs
housing, and the housing provider's selection of households to
occupy vacant units in its housing projects;"
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion number
87.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 88(2) of the bill be amended by adding the
following clause after clause (e):
"(e.1) the housing
provider's obligation to make annual contributions to a capital
reserve fund sufficient to pay for the replacement of major
assets and to update his capital reserve plans regularly."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It does not carry.
Shall section 88, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 89. Liberal motion
number 88.
Mr Caplan:
The one that was originally there has been withdrawn. Everybody
has the new copy.
The Chair:
This is dealing with subsection 89(1)? I've got that.
Mr Caplan:
There's just a minor change in wording. I move that subsection
89(1) of the bill be amended by adding at the end "other than a
matter relating to a matter mentioned in clause 88(2)(a), (b),
(e), (f), (g) or (h)."
1830
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? That carries.
Shall section 89, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 90, government
motion number 89.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 90(2) of the bill be amended by adding the
following clause:
"(a.1) in the case of a
housing provider that is a non-profit housing co-operative,
"(i) allow a member of the
co-operative to occupy a member unit of the co-operative, and
"(ii) allow a non-member of
the co-operative to occupy, or offer, list, advertise or hold out
for occupancy, a non-member unit of the co-operative for a term
not exceeding one year."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? That carries.
Liberal motion number
90.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 90(2) of the bill be amended by adding the
following clause:
"(c) offer or grant
occupancy rights for individual units to members in accordance
with the Co-operative Corporations Act or advertise or otherwise
represent that such rights are available."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Shall section 90, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 91, Liberal motion
number 91.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 91 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same
"(4.1) The document
required may be registered or deposited and shall be accepted for
registration or deposit under the Registry Act and may be
registered and shall be accepted for registration under the Land
Titles Act, despite any provision of those acts."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? That carries.
Shall section 91, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 92 carry? All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Section 93, Liberal motion
number 92.
Mr Caplan:
Madam Chair, I seek your advice. This one has been changed as
well. I withdraw this one; it's been changed to subsection 106.
Do you want to deal with it now or do you wish to deal with it
when we come to subsection 106?
The Chair:
So you'll withdraw that one and reintroduce it as 106?
Mr Caplan:
Yes, the subsection refers to not only this one but also to
Liberal motion number 94. The two of them are-
The Chair:
So you want them both withdrawn and moved to subsection 106?
Mr Caplan:
Subsection 106.
The Chair:
Is the committee in agreement with that? We'll just deal with
that when we get there, then.
Mr Caplan:
We'll deal with them when we get there? Fine.
The Chair:
When we get to 106.
Mr Caplan:
Yes, fine.
Interjection.
The Chair:
A clarification, Mr Caplan. You're moving motion numbers 93 and
94 to 106?
Mr Caplan:
No; 92 and 94.
The Chair:
Under section 93, you're moving number 92 to 106.
Mr Caplan:
They'll be captured under 106.
The Chair:
OK. So we do need to withdraw that, because that's the only
motion. That's withdrawn.
Mr Coburn:
For clarification, Madam Chair: that's subsections 93(4) and (6)
and subsection 94(6)?
Mr Caplan:
No; 94(7) to (9).
Mr Coburn:
OK.
The Chair:
It's 94(7) to (9).
Let's just deal with
section 93 first. There is no amendment now because it's been
withdrawn.
Shall section 93 carry? All
in favour of section 93? Opposed? That was a tie vote.
Interjection.
The Chair:
No because the amendment has been withdrawn. I will be voting to
carry the section.
Section 94. Do you want to
deal with Liberal motion number 93?
Mr Caplan:
Yes. That one is still live.
I move that section 94 of
the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:
"Transition
"(6) Any rent supplement
agreement that is provided under the Ontario Community Housing
Assistance Program or the Community-Sponsored Housing Program and
that relates to a housing project for which there is an operating
agreement described in paragraph 3 of subsection 86(2) is
extended until the expiry of the operating agreement described in
that paragraph for that housing project, unless the housing
provider who is a party to the rent supplement agreement and the
service manager responsible for funding under the rent supplement
agreement agree to terminate or amend the rent supplement
agreement."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Now, 94, Mr Caplan, you
want to withdraw?
Mr Caplan:
That's withdrawn and will be dealt with later under 106.
The Chair:
OK. Shall section 94 carry? All in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Section 95, Liberal motion
number 95.
Mr Caplan:
I move that section 95 of the bill be amended by adding the
following subsection:
"Same
"(2) A housing provider
shall select households to occupy vacant units or to receive
rent-geared-to-income assistance in a housing project in a manner
that is consistent with
"(a) subsection 88(1),
and
"(b) the categories of
households that are eligible to occupy units in the housing
project as authorized by the mandate for the project."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Shall section 95 carry? All
in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 96, government
motion number 96.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 96(6) of the bill be struck out and the
following substituted:
"Change restricted
"(6) The service manager
shall not require the housing provider to increase or decrease
the number of rent-geared-to-income units if the effect of the
increase or decrease in rent-geared-to-income units would be to
decrease by more than 10%, or to increase by more than 10%, the
number of market units set out in the targeting plan that is in
effect for the housing project under section 93."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion number
97.
Mr Caplan:
It's a duplicate of the last motion. It's withdrawn.
The Chair:
So it's withdrawn.
Shall section 96, as
amended, carry? All in favour of section 96? Opposed? That
carries.
Section 97. Shall section
97 carry? All in favour of section 97? Opposed? That carries.
Section 98, Liberal motion
number 98.
Mr Caplan:
I move that subsection 98(2) of the bill be amended by striking
out the definition of the variable "E" and by striking out the
formula and substituting the following:
"(A + B + C) - D."
If I could just comment:
this whole section deals with the funding that's going to be
provided for housing projects. It is an untested and untried
model. There is a great deal of concern about it. This one
provision-any of the members of this committee who may have a
municipal background would know that when you start to tamper with surpluses and claw
them back, funny things start to happen that you don't generate
surpluses. I would strongly urge members of this committee to
pass this amendment.
Mr
Gerretsen: Just so that I'm clear, it's "(A + B +
C)"?
The Chair:
It's not very clear on the printed copy, but it is "(A + B + C) -
D."
All in favour of that
motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
NDP motion number 99.
1840
Ms Lankin:
I move that the definition of the variable "E" in subsection
98(2) of the bill be struck out and the following
substituted:
"`E' is the amount equal to
that portion of the provider's surplus for the fiscal year in
respect of its housing projects in the service area that remains
after,
"(a) any accumulated
deficits from previous years are offset,
"(b) any liabilities not
included in the funding formula are discharged,
"(c) an operating reserve
equal to two months of operating expenses is funded, and
"(d) any supplements to
normal capital reserve fund contributions are made if the capital
reserve is underfunded as determined by a capital reserve fund
study approved by the service manager,
"or it is such lesser
amount as the service manager may determine."
If I may, Mr Caplan spoke
to the rationale for this in his motion. This motion is a more
comprehensive version and again tries to deal with the issue of
surpluses, of what's paid back to municipalities, of ensuring
that the housing providers in these circumstances are protected.
I would hope that the government's rejection of Mr Caplan's
motion was only because it wasn't comprehensive enough and that
this one will persuade them to support the concept.
The Chair:
All in favour of the motion?
Mr Caplan:
I'll support this lesser one, Madam Chair. I'll support you,
Frances.
The Chair:
Opposed? That does not carry.
Moving to the next package,
starting with government motion number 100.
Mr Coburn:
I move that subsection 98(3) of the bill be amended by striking
out "the total amount of principal and interest payable by the
provider for the fiscal year with respect to mortgages on those
projects" and substituting "the total amount of principal and
interest payable by the provider for the fiscal year under
mortgages guaranteed by the province of Ontario or the Ontario
Housing Corporation in respect of those projects."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? It carries.
Members of committee, I've
just received some information that there is probably going to be
a motion pertaining to our committee in the
House-immediately?
Mr Caplan:
When the House resumes.
The Chair:
When the House resumes.
Ms Lankin:
The details of it refer to 7 o'clock, so we've got time to hear
back from the House that they've passed it.
Mr
Gerretsen: Should we not be there to speak to it and
address some other urgent issues?
The Chair:
What is the wish? Do you want to recess for a moment?
Mr Caplan:
No, no. Let's keep moving.
The Chair:
Just keep moving?
Mr Caplan:
Yes.
The Chair:
Then we'll move to Liberal motion number 101.
Mr Caplan:
I'm certain that all members of the committee will be supporting
this motion.
I move that subsection
98(5) of the bill be amended by striking out the portion before
paragraph 1 and substituting the following:
"Phase-in subsidy
reductions
"(5) If the amount of a
housing provider's subsidy (other than the rent-geared-to-income
subsidy) determined under this section is less than the subsidy
(other than the rent-geared-to-income subsidy) paid to the
provider under an operating agreement that is terminated by this
act, the following rules apply."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? That carries.
NDP motion number 102.
Ms Lankin:
This is subsection 98(6).
I move that the definition
of the variable "F" in subsection 98(6) of the bill be struck out
and the following substituted:
"`F' is the total actual
market rent for the fiscal year from the rent-geared-to-income
units in the provider's housing projects in the service
area."
This just clarifies that
RGI subsidy calculation only takes into account market rents in
the RGI units and not market rents that have nothing to do with
RGI.
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
NDP motion number 103.
Ms Lankin:
I move that the definition of variable "G" in subsection 98(6) of
the bill be amended by striking out "the amount of rental
payments payable" and substituting "the amount of rental payments
paid."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
Liberal motion number
104.
Mr Caplan:
Madam Chair, I'll give it a shot; I don't know. I move that
paragraph 2 of subsection 98(7) of the bill be amended by
striking out "prescribed by the minister" and substituting
"prescribed for the year by the minister."
The Chair:
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
NDP motion number
105.
Mr
Gerretsen: I don't understand why you're against that.
It clarifies it.
Ms
Lankin: I understood you were supporting that.
The
Chair: NDP motion number 105, Ms Lankin.
Ms Lankin: I move
that subsection 98(8) of the bill be amended by striking out the
formula and substituting the following-and, Madam Chair, for the
life of me, I can't read that. Can someone help me?
The
Chair: I was going to say, make sure they print this
properly.
Ms
Lankin: "(H x 0.95)-(H x J/K)."
The
Chair: Does everyone understand that motion? All in
favour of that motion? Opposed? That doesn't carry.
We will move to NDP
motion number 106.
Ms
Lankin: I move that the definition of the variable "H"
in subsection 98(8) of the bill be amended by striking out "the
amount of the provider's indexed market revenue" in the first and
second lines and substituting "the amount of the provider's
market rental revenue."
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That
doesn't carry.
Liberal motion number
107.
Mr
Caplan: I move that the definitions of the variables "H"
and "K" in subsection 98(8) of the bill be amended by striking
out "benchmark revenue" wherever it appears and substituting in
each case "benchmark market rental revenue."
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion?
Interjection: Do you want to put
a slash there?
The
Chair: Was there a slash?
Mr
Caplan: If you choose to vote in favour, I will put a
slash in. Is that OK?
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That
doesn't carry.
Liberal motion number
108.
Mr
Caplan: I move that paragraph 1 of subsection 98(9) of
the bill be amended by striking out "indexed market revenue" in
the third line and substituting "market rental revenue."
I'm hoping for the strong
support of all members on this one.
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed?
Interjection: Opposed.
The
Chair: Liberal motion number 109.
Mr
Caplan: Did you guys change your mind on this?
Interjection.
Mr
Caplan: Yes, they changed their mind.
I move that paragraph 2
of subsection 98(9) of the bill be amended by striking out
"prescribed by the minister" and substituting "prescribed for the
year by the minister."
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion number
110.
Mr
Caplan: I move that subsection 98(9) of the bill be
struck out.
Mr
Gerretsen: This is the best one.
Mr
Caplan: This is their chance.
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Government motion
110.1.
Mr
Coburn: I move that subsection 98(10) of the bill be
struck out and the following substituted:
"Surplus
"(10) The amount, if any,
of the provider's surplus for a fiscal year in respect of its
housing projects in the service area is the amount determined
using the formula.
"L-(M + N + P)
"in which,
"`L' is the amount of the
provider's net operating income for the fiscal year as set out in
the annual report required under subsection 108(1) relating to
that fiscal year;
"`M' is the amount of the
provider's affordable mortgage payment determined by the minister
under section 99;
"`N' is the amount of the
provider's mandatory payment for the fiscal year; and
"`P' is the amount of an
operating reserve, as determined in the manner prescribed by the
minister."
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That
carries.
Liberal motion 111.
Mr
Caplan: I move that subsection 98(10) of the bill be
struck out.
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 112.
Mr
Caplan: I move that subsection 98(11) of the bill be
amended by inserting after "exceeds its operating costs" in the
fifth and sixth lines "including all taxes, less its affordable
mortgage payment."
The
Chair: All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That does
not carry?
Shall section 98, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Mr
Coburn: Madam Chair, could I have a two-minute
recess?
The
Chair: We'll have a two-minute recess.
The committee
recessed from 1852 to 1903.
The
Chair: I call the meeting to order. Members of the
committee, I have just been handed a motion that has just passed
in the House that reads as follows:
"I move that
notwithstanding the standing orders or any other order of the
House relating to Bill 128, for the purpose of this evening's
clause-by-clause consideration, at 7 pm all amendments shall be
deemed to be moved except where specifically requested to be
moved by any member of the committee."
What that means
essentially is that I will proceed to read each section and
amendment number, and I'll do it fairly slowly to start so that
you know exactly what's being voted on.
Mr
Gerretsen: Why is the government trying to railroad this
through? Shouldn't this have due consideration, Madam Chair?
The
Chair: I cannot speak for the government.
Mr
Gerretsen: Maybe the parliamentary assistant has a
comment on that.
The
Chair: I think we will now proceed with section 99. We
did carry section 98, right? OK, section 98, NDP motion 113.
Interjections:
Section 99.
Mr
Coburn: Madam Chair, could you read the subsection, like
99 and so on? The page numbers don't all coincide.
The
Chair: I will do that, certainly.
This is NDP motion 113,
subsection 99(1), paragraph 2. All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Liberal motion number
114, which is subsection 99(1.1): All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That does not carry.
NDP motion number 115,
which is subsection 99(1.1): All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Government motion number
116, which is subsection 99(6): All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 99, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 100: This is
government motion number 117, dealing with subsection 100(1). All
in favour of the amendment? That carries.
Shall section 100, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 101: Mr
Caplan.
Mr
Caplan: This one has been withdrawn and there was
another one in place related to 101(2), definition of (b).
The
Chair: This is subsection 101(2), definition of (b). All
in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
The
Chair: Government motion 119, which is subsection
101(2): All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion number
120, which is subsection 101(2): All in favour of that? Opposed?
That does not carry.
Government motion 120.1,
dealing with subsection 101(4).
Interjection: Government
motion?
The
Chair: This is government motion 120.1, dealing with
subsection 101(4) of the bill. All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That carries.
This is why I'm going to
repeat it twice, to make sure you absolutely understand what
you're voting on.
Liberal motion 121 deals
with subsection 101(4). All in favour of that motion? Opposed?
That does not carry.
Shall section 101, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
1910
On section 101.1, Liberal
motion 122, which is new section 101.1: All in favour of that
motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Section 102, Liberal
motion 123, dealing with subsection 102(1.1): All in favour of
that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Government motion 124,
dealing with subsection 102(4): All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 102, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 103, government
motion 125, dealing with section 103: All in favour of that
motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 103, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
This is section 104. This
deals with government motion 126, subsection 104(3) of the bill.
All in favour of that motion? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 104, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 105, government
motion 127, dealing with subsection 105(2): All in favour of that
motion? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion 128,
dealing with subsections 105(2) and (3)-
Mr
Caplan: Madam Chair, while subsection (2) is the same,
that's withdrawn, but subsection (3) remains.
The
Chair: Subsection (2) is withdrawn?
Mr
Caplan: Subsection (2) is withdrawn because it's the
same as the one that just passed.
The
Chair: And (3) remains. Just a minute; let's just check
this out. You've withdrawn subsection (2).
Mr
Caplan: It's the same as the one that just passed.
The
Chair: Subsection (3) is government motion 127. So are
you withdrawing the whole thing?
Mr
Caplan: No, just subsection (2). Subsection (3) is new.
I didn't know at the time when I submitted the amendment.
The
Chair: That is an amendment to your amendment.
Members of committee,
please appreciate that the motion is deemed to have been
moved.
Mr
Caplan: So I'll withdraw it and let's do the whole thing
then.
The
Chair: So are you withdrawing-
Mr
Caplan: No. Let's just vote, because I want to keep part
(3).
The
Chair: So we'll just vote on it then.
Mr
Caplan: Sure.
The
Chair: Dealing with Liberal motion 128, which is
subsections 105(2) and (3): All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Shall section 105, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 106
carry?
Mr
Caplan: Madam Chair, we have amendments to sections 93
and 94.
The
Chair: Yes, you're quite correct. My apologies about
that. Mr Caplan, you may recall, withdrew, back in section
90-whatever, to move it into section 106. This deals with Liberal
motion, subsection 106(3.1), which relates to Liberal motion to
subsections 93(4) to (6) and subsections 94(7) to (9).
Mr
Caplan: No, Madam Chair. If I could clarify, that's what
was originally being proposed. That has been withdrawn and it's
being consolidated under section 106.
Mr
Coburn: As an alternative to it.
Mr Caplan:
Exactly.
The
Chair: Does the committee understand that? All in favour
of the Liberal motion? That carries.
Is there anything else
under 106, Mr Caplan?
Mr
Caplan: No.
The
Chair: Shall section 106, as amended, carry? All in
favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 107, Liberal
motion 129, dealing with subsection 107(2): All in favour of that
motion? That carries.
Shall section 107, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 108, Liberal
motion 130, dealing with subsection 108(3): All in favour of that
motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Liberal motion 131-
Mr
Caplan: That one has been withdrawn and replaced.
The
Chair: That's withdrawn and replaced. Just let me check
the motion here. This deals with subsection 108(4.1). All in
favour of that motion? Carried.
Government motion 132,
dealing with subsection 108(8): All in favour of that motion?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 108, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Moving to section 109:
Shall section 109 carry? All in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Section 110, Liberal
motion 133, dealing with section 110, paragraph 1: All in favour
of that motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Liberal motion 134,
dealing with section 110, paragraph 2: All in favour of that
motion? Opposed? That does not carry.
Liberal motion 135,
section 110, paragraph 3: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 136,
section 110, paragraph 4: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 137,
section 110, paragraph 5: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 138,
section 110, paragraph 6: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 139,
section 110, paragraph 7: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 140,
section 110, paragraph 8: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 141,
section 110, paragraph 11: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 142,
section 110, paragraph 12: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 143,
section 110, paragraph 13: All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Shall section 110 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
1920
Liberal motion 144,
subsection 111(1), paragraph 1. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 145,
subsection 111(1), paragraph 1. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 146,
subsection 111(1), paragraph 2. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 147,
subsection 111(1), paragraph 4. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 148,
section 111(1), paragraph 5. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 149,
subsection 111(1), paragraph 7. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion, new
section-
Interjection.
The
Chair: No. Next section. Sorry.
Liberal motion 150,
subsection 111(1), paragraph 8. All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Shall section 111 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion 151,
section 112, subclause (1)(a)(ii). All in favour? That
carries.
Liberal motion 152,
clause 112(1)(b). All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Government motion 153,
subsection 112(2). All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Government motion 154,
subsection 112(3). All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 112, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion 155,
dealing with section 113. All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 156,
clause 113(a). All in favour? Opposed? That does not carry.
Government motion 157,
clauses 113(a) and (b). All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 113, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion 158,
dealing with subsection 114(1). All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 159,
dealing with section 114, subsection (2.1). All in favour?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Shall section 114 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Liberal motion 160,
clause 115(1)(a). All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 161,
dealing with clause 115(1)(b). All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 162,
dealing with clause 115(1)(c). All in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 163,
clause 115(1)(d). All in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 164,
dealing with subsection 115(1.1). All in favour? Opposed? That
does not carry.
Liberal motion 165,
dealing with subsections 115(1.2) and (1.3). All in favour?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Liberal motion 166.
Mr
Caplan: Madam Chair, this one was withdrawn and one in
the package replaced it.
The
Chair: Replaced by?
Mr
Caplan: 115(6), paragraph 2.
Interjection: This is a new
one?
The Chair: This is
the new one we're dealing with. That's Liberal motion 166. All in
favour? That carries.
Liberal motion 167, which
is subsection 115(8). All in favour of that motion? Opposed? I
was busy looking at you, Mr Caplan, because I heard you talking
and I wasn't sure if we were completely clear.
Shall section 115, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed. That carries.
Moving to section 115.1,
which is a new section: Liberal motion 168. All in favour?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Moving to 116, Liberal
motion 169, which is subsection 116(1.1): all in favour? Opposed?
That does not carry.
Liberal motion 170 to
subsection 116(2), paragraph 2: all in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Shall section 116 carry?
All in favour? Opposed. That carries.
On section 116(1),
Liberal motion 171, which is new section 116.1: all in
favour?
Mr
Coburn: Madam Chair, I don't have it.
The
Chair: You don't have it? You should have it.
Mr
Caplan: I'll read it into the record, Madam Chair, just
so everyone can be clear.
Ms
Lankin: I can probably help Mr Coburn find it, because
his package is in the same order as mine. It's back about four
from where we are.
Mr
Caplan: I'll still read it into the record, Madam
Chair.
I move the bill be
amended by adding the following section after section 116:
"Review and appeal
"116.1. The minister
shall, by regulation, establish a review and appeal process with
respect to decisions of managers under sections 111 to 116."
The
Chair: Mr Caplan has read that into the record. This is
Liberal motion 171 on section 116.1. All in favour? Opposed? That
does not carry.
Sections 117 through 124
inclusive: all in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 125 we dealt with
at the beginning, so we move to sections 126 through section 128
inclusive. Shall they carry? All in favour? Opposed? They
carry.
Section 129, government
motion 174, dealing with subsection 129(6): all in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 129, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
1930
Shall section 130 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 131, government
motion 175, dealing with subsections 131(1) and (2): all in
favour? That carries.
Government motion 176,
dealing with subsections 131(11), (12) and (13): all in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 131, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Sections 132 through 134
inclusive: shall they carry? All in favour? Opposed? They
carry.
Section 135, dealing with
government amendment 177, which is clause 135(2)(d) of the bill:
all in favour? That carries.
Shall section 135, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 136 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 137, NDP motion
178. All in favour?
Ms
Lankin: Dealing with which section?
The
Chair: Sorry. NDP motion 178, dealing with clause
137(1)(b): all in favour? Opposed? That does not carry.
NDP motion 179, dealing
with clause 137(1)(c): all in favour? That carries.
NDP motion 180 dealing
with clause 137(1)(d): all in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Interjections.
The
Chair: You're perfectly clear on what you just voted on,
members of committee?
Interjection: Yes.
The
Chair: This is NDP motion number 181, dealing with
clause 137(1)(f): all in favour? That carries.
NDP motion 182, which is
clause 137(1)(g): all in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Government motion 182.1,
dealing with clause 137(1)(g): all in favour? That carries.
NDP motion 183, which is
137(1)(h): all in favour? That carries.
Government motion 184,
subsection 137(1.1): all in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 137, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 138, NDP motion
185, dealing with subsection 138(5.1): all in favour? Opposed?
That does not carry.
Shall section 138 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 139, NDP motion
186, dealing with subsection 139(1): all in favour? Opposed? That
does not carry.
NDP motion 187, dealing
with subsection 139(2.1): all in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Shall section 139 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 140, NDP motion
188, which is subsection 140(1): all in favour? Opposed? That
does not carry.
Shall section 140 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Sections 141 and 142,
inclusive: shall those sections carry? All in favour? Opposed?
They carry.
Section 143, NDP motion
189, dealing with subsection 143(1.1): all in favour? Opposed?
That does not carry.
NDP motion 190, dealing
with section subsection 143(3): all in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Shall section 143 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 143.1, government
motion 190.1: all in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Interjections.
The
Chair: The committee is satisfied with that?
Mr
Caplan: Oh yeah, wholeheartedly.
The
Chair: Sections 144 and 145, inclusive: shall they
carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
On section 145.1,
government motion 191: all in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 146 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 147: this is NDP
motion 192, which deals with subsection 147(2). All in favour?
Opposed? That does not carry.
Shall section 147 carry?
All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Sections 148 through 157,
inclusive: shall those sections carry? All in favour? Opposed?
They carry.
Now we go to section 158,
which is government motions 193 and 194, dealing with section 158
of the bill. All in favour? OK. Carried.
Shall section 158, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 158.1, which is
government motion 195: all in favour? That carries.
Liberal motion 196, which
is section 158.1: all in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
1940
Sections 159 through, 163
inclusive: shall those sections carry? All in favour? Opposed?
They carry.
Section 164, government
motion 197, which is 164(1), paragraph 1.1: all in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
Government motion 198,
which is 164(1), paragraph 14.1: all in favour? That carries.
Government motion 199,
which is 164(1), paragraph 15: all in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Government motion 200,
which is paragraph 17.1 of 164(1): all in favour? This is
government motion 200: all in favour? Opposed?
Government motion 201,
which is 164(1), paragraph 19.1: all in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Government motion 202,
164(1), paragraph 23: all in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Government motion 203,
which is 164(1), paragraphs 30 and 31: all in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Government motion 204,
which is 164(2), paragraph 0.1: all in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Government motion 205,
which is 164(2), paragraph 1: all in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Shall section 164, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Mr
Coburn: Madam Chair, I'd like to get unanimous consent
to reopen section 1.
Ms
Lankin: Don't we need to go to the end of the package
before that?
Mr
Coburn: Do we have to go to the end?
Ms
Lankin: I'm having a hard enough time following the
paper flow here, Brian, you know.
Mr
Caplan: We've still got another 20 amendments to go.
Ms
Lankin: We just want to make sure you pass those other
amendments you said you were going to.
The
Chair: I gather there isn't unanimous consent at this
time, so we'll go back to consideration of clause-by-clause.
We're dealing with
government motion 205.1 which is-
Ms
Lankin: This replaces the NDP motion.
The
Chair: OK. So this is subsection 165(2), paragraph 4.1:
all in favour? That carries.
Then 205.2, which is
165(2), paragraph 10.1: all in favour? Carried.
Shall section 165, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 166, government
motion 206 dealing with subsection 166(1) paragraph 2: all in
favour? That carries.
Government motion 207,
166(1), paragraphs 3, 3.1 and 3.2: all in favour? That
carries.
Government motion 208,
dealing with subsection 166(1), paragraphs 10.1 and 10.2: all in
favour? That carries.
Government motion 209,
which is subsection 166(1), paragraph 10.3: all in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
Government motion 210,
subsection 166(2), paragraph 1: all in favour? That carries.
Government motion 211,
which is subsection 166(4): all in favour? Opposed? That
carries.
Shall section 166, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 167. Government
motion 212, dealing with section 167, paragraph 5.1: all in
favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 167, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Section 168. Government
motion 213, which is section 168, paragraph 8: all in favour?
Opposed? That carries.
Shall section 168, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall sections 169 and
170, inclusive, carry? All in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Section 171, Liberal
motion 214, which deals with subsection 171(1.1).
Mr
Caplan: These pertain to amendments to the Tenant
Protection Act, the so-called Tenant Protection Act, 1997.
The
Chair: All in favour? Opposed? That does not carry.
Government motion 215 and
216, dealing with subsection 171(2).
Mr
Gerretsen: I can't read the bottom half of that page at
all.
Mr
Caplan: I have a better copy for you if you need it.
The
Chair: Would you like it rephotocopied?
Mr
Caplan: I took a look at it. It's OK.
The
Chair: Are you sure? All in favour? That carries.
Liberal motion 217, dealing with
subsection 171(3): all in favour? Opposed? That does not
carry.
Liberal motion 218,
dealing with subsection 171(4): all in favour? Opposed? That does
not carry.
Liberal motion 219, which
is subsection 171(6): all in favour? Opposed? That doesn't
carry.
Liberal motion 220, which
is subsection 171(7): all in favour? Opposed? It doesn't
carry.
Liberal motion 221, which
is subsection 171(8): all in favour? Opposed? It doesn't
carry.
Shall section 171, as
amended, carry? All in favour? Opposed?
Mr
Caplan: I'm sorry. What was the-
The
Chair: Ah, you weren't listening.
Mr
Caplan: I was conferring. You're opposed? Good.
The
Chair: It carries.
1950
Members of committee, I'm
just reminded that I have here the last page of an amendment that
was not actually moved, which is a new amendment to subsection
51(11) of the bill.
Ms
Lankin: This is a section that's been passed already, is
it?
The
Chair: Yes.
Mr
Caplan: What section was this? Can you repeat that?
Ms
Lankin: We would want to have unanimous consent for
this.
The
Chair: It says, "I move that subsection 51(11) of the
bill be amended by striking out "the earlier of the date the
local housing corporation was incorporated and" near the end.
Mr
Caplan: That was dealt with. It's in here already. We've
already done it. We did it already.
The
Chair: I just need a clarification.
Mr
Caplan: No, it's been dealt with. It was dealt with as a
government amendment.
The
Chair: I need your confirmation that it's withdrawn, Mr
Caplan.
Mr
Caplan: I withdraw it. You bet. The government already
passed this.
The
Chair: Mr Caplan's withdrawn it.
Sections 172 and 173.
Interjections.
The
Chair: Shall sections 172 and 173, inclusive, carry? All
in favour? Opposed? They carry.
Shall the long title
carry?
Interjections.
The
Chair: Before we do the long title, is there any
other-
Mr
Coburn: Yes, Madam Chair.
Ms
Lankin: You're so accommodating.
The
Chair: Mr Coburn, this is the time to do it.
Mr
Coburn: Where I come from, you go on a little bit of
respect. Now that I've mentioned it, I expect you to come back to
it.
Madam Chair, I'd like
unanimous consent to reopen section 1.
The
Chair: Is there unanimous consent? OK, we have unanimous
consent to reopen section 1.
Mr
Caplan: I have an amendment to section 1, Madam Chair.
Shouldn't we just drop it, though?
The
Chair: Is there any debate or amendment? If not, I'm
going to put the question.
Ms
Lankin: The only reason I gave unanimous consent is that
even an odious bill has a purpose to it. It may be an odious
purpose, but it has a purpose.
The
Chair: Do we have to deal with amendments? No
amendments.
Shall section 1
carry?
Mr
Gerretsen: Just a minute. What's the longest time we can
debate this?
Mr
Caplan: I'll pour you some water if you want to get
going, John.
The
Chair: Shall section 1 carry? All in favour? Opposed?
That carries.
Ms
Lankin: Madam Chair, can I just say well done. That was
quite amazing. You really got in the groove there. Well done.
The
Chair: We haven't quite finished. We just have the long
title to do. Shall the long title of the bill carry? All in
favour? Opposed? That carries.
Shall Bill 128, as
amended, carry?
Mr
Caplan: Recorded vote, please.
AYES
Coburn, DeFaria,
Wettlaufer, Wood.
NAYS
Caplan, Gerretsen,
Lankin.
The
Chair: That carries. Shall I report the bill, as
amended, to the House? All in favour? Opposed? That carries.
Thank you for your
patience, members of committee.
