STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
COMITÉ PERMANENT DES ORGANISMES GOUVERNEMENTAUX
Wednesday 4 June 2003 Mercredi 4 juin 2003
Wednesday 4 June 2003 Mercredi 4 juin 2003
The committee met at 1003 in room 151.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Chair (Mr James J. Bradley): I call the meeting of Wednesday, June 4, 2003, to order. The first item of business is the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, May 22, 2003.
Mr Bob Wood (London West): I move its adoption.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved its adoption. Any discussion? If not, all in favour? Opposed? Motion carried.
The second is the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, May 29, 2003.
Mr Wood: I move its adoption.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved its adoption. Any discussion? All in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
JOE LI
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Joe Li, intended appointee as member, Ontario SuperBuild Corp board of directors.
The Chair: We now move into our appointments review. The first selection is an intended appointee as member, Ontario SuperBuild Corp board of directors, Mr Joe Li. Mr Li, would you come forward, please. As you're probably aware, you have an opportunity to make an initial statement should you see fit. Subsequent to that, there will be questions from members of the committee. Welcome, sir.
Mr Joe Li: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Mr Chairman, committee members, my name is Joe Li and I am honoured to have this opportunity of making this presentation for the purpose of my appointment as a board member of SuperBuild.
I have had a chance to review the 2003 progress report of SuperBuild and I understand that there are three objectives of the SuperBuild corporation: (1) to rationalize the way the government invests in public infrastructure; (2) to encourage private partnership with other entities -- for example, the public and private sectors; and (3) to generate $20 billion in public facilities in five years.
As of today, $15 billion has been committed in about 4,000 projects. These projects include areas like highways, hospitals, courthouses, the classroom, community centres, cultural attractions and long-term-care facilities, $4.5 billion in health care, $39 million in biotechnology, $10 billion in highways and in public transit, and $2.6 billion to prepare students for the global economy in partnership with colleges and universities. Also, SuperBuild has committed more than $850 million in more than 600 community projects.
I understand that I am not an architect or an engineer and I am not a technical person, but I am an entrepreneur, currently running a financial consulting firm in Scarborough with a charter life underwriter and charter financial consultant designation. I have been in this business for 15 years. Prior to that, I had operated a successful restaurant business in Sweden. I also work as director of the Asian initiative for London Life Insurance Co. I was instrumental to the joint venture partnership business of Shin Fu Life Insurance Co in Taiwan.
Currently, I'm the executive director of the Chinese outreach committee for the Scarborough Hospital Foundation annual mid-autumn ball fundraising event. Last year our fundraising event netted approximately $150,000, and the year before we raised approximately $120,000.
I am a founding member of the Yin Hua Association of Ontario, serving most of the senior Chinese Canadians who came from India. I am also a board member of South Asians of Ontario, serving Canadians who came from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.
I obviously speak my own language, Chinese, and English. I also speak Swedish -- just enough to make a living. I'm a team player. I've had the pleasure of working with some of you in the past and I'm honoured to be considered for the opportunity to serve a larger community and participate with SuperBuild, given its importance in delivering public work projects to all Ontarians to improve services and infrastructure.
I will be pleased to answer your questions at this time.
The Chair: We begin with the Conservative Party, the government party.
1010
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I don't have a lot of questions to ask you, Mr Li, but I wanted to thank you for putting your name forward for a contribution to the province. There are a lot of different things that the province is involved in, in a leadership role. A lot of these boards and agencies that we, if you like, overview the appointments to, are very important and they take dedicated people that are willing to give over and above what a person would think of as just another job. I was particularly impressed with some of the organizations that you have been involved in, the hospital board and things like that. I just wanted to say congratulations and thanks ever so much for putting your name forward to help out the province of Ontario through the SuperBuild.
Mr Li: Thank you.
Mr Wood: We'll waive the balance of our time.
The Chair: The government has waived the balance of its time, so we now commence questioning with the official opposition.
Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): Good morning, Mr Li. Would you be able to explain for us this morning how it is you have come to be an intended appointee for the SuperBuild Corp?
Mr Li: In the past, because of my community involvement, I had an opportunity to check with Catherine Mustard. We are in a multicultural society now. I don't see a lot of visible minority people like me to sit on that government corporation.
Mrs Dombrowsky: To whom did you make the comment?
Mr Li: Catherine Mustard. I have checked with her, that if there were any positions available I would be interested. She came and let me know a couple of months ago that SuperBuild -- which also handles hospitals, which I'm closely associated with, and the community work, which I am attached to wholeheartedly -- may be a department I would like to serve.
Mrs Dombrowsky: How are you associated with the hospital?
Mr Li: I was with a Chinese outreach committee that primarily raised money for the Scarborough Hospital Foundation, which includes the Scarborough General and the Scarborough Grace, for the last six years.
Mrs Dombrowsky: So you indicated to Ms Mustard that you wanted to be on an agency, board or commission of the government because you were representative of an ethnic group?
Mr Li: Well, I would like to do anything to do with community.
Mrs Dombrowsky: All right. So what is your understanding of the chief role of the Ontario SuperBuild Corp?
Mr Li: I had a brief chance to read through the progress report. To my understanding, the government is looking for partnerships with private corporations in some areas for expansion of Ontario infrastructure systems. I know that there are a lot of areas to work, in like helping build more universities, hospitals, sewer system treatment and those kinds of projects.
Mrs Dombrowsky: You are aware that the role of the corporation is to advise the Minister of Finance?
Mr Li: Yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Have you received a copy of this document, Building Ontario's Future, that explains the Ontario SuperBuild initiative?
Mr Li: Yes, I just got a copy last week.
Mrs Dombrowsky: You received a copy. Quite a glitzy and rather expensive document, wouldn't you agree?
Mr Li: Well, I can't comment on the book, but I'm very impressed with all the projects that took place because of SuperBuild.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Do you have an opinion about the fact that taxpayers' dollars are used to produce this kind of self-promotional document?
Mr Li: I personally am not aware of all those things. All I'm impressed with is that when I read through this program I have a better understanding now of what SuperBuild is all about.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Mr Li, if I may, I really would like to understand if you have an opinion about the fact that hard-working taxpayers in Ontario have had to pay for this type of document to be distributed right across the province. Do you have an opinion about whether that's a good thing or not a good thing?
Mr Li: I can only comment personally because I think material like this is helpful. Quite frankly, prior to last week I didn't have a lot of general ideas about SuperBuild.
Mrs Dombrowsky: And what's the impression this kind of document leaves with you, then?
Mr Li: It came across to me that I was impressed with the projects involved with SuperBuild. If you asked me to comment about how much it cost to produce this document, quite frankly I am not aware of any of that.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I'm not asking you to speculate about the cost, but do you think it is appropriate that taxpayers' dollars are used to produce this kind of document?
Mr Li: All I can say and comment on is that I think this document is very useful to let Ontario know what kind of money was spent to help in infrastructure expansion. As I mentioned five minutes ago, I didn't have a lot of knowledge about SuperBuild until this booklet arrived in my hands. I'm starting to have a better understanding.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Would you describe it as being partisan in nature?
Mr Li: I don't see any party logo here, so I can't comment on that.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I'm not suggesting that it would necessarily have to have a party logo to be partisan, but the content of the document -- obviously, you've read it. Do you think that it's partisan in nature?
Mr Li: I don't feel that way myself.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Have you yourself had any political experience?
Mr Li: I have run in the past.
Mrs Dombrowsky: You have run as a candidate?
Mr Li: In the past.
Mrs Dombrowsky: For what party?
Mr Li: For the Conservative Party.
Mrs Dombrowsky: In what riding?
Mr Li: Scarborough-Rouge River. That was a federal election.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Oh, I see. Are you a member of the provincial Progressive Conservative Party?
Mr Li: Yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: At the present time?
Mr Li: Yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Are you on the executive of your association?
Mr Li: No, I am not on the executive. I resigned most of the positions last year.
Mrs Dombrowsky: You resigned most of the positions?
Mr Li: Yes, I was riding president last year and have resigned that position.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I see. So you're the immediate past president of your riding association?
Mr Li: That's correct.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Have you ever sought candidacy at the provincial level for the Progressive Conservative Party?
Mr Li: I can never say "never," but at this point my business is a priority to me. After discussions with my wife -- you understand I have a young family with an eight-year-old daughter, and at this stage I am more focused on my business, which is still in the infancy stage, at five years old.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Have you ever run to be a candidate provincially in any riding?
Mr Li: No.
Mrs Dombrowsky: You have not. We have people sometimes who help us out with this information and I guess it must be a mistake, then, that I would have that you sought the nomination in the riding of Scarborough-Agincourt, to be a Tory candidate there.
Mr Li: I indicated that I was interested in running in Scarborough-Agincourt. That's where my office is located and that's where the hospital is that I've been associated with for the last six years. I would like to make some improvements for the community where I live. But because of my business -- the lease is coming up within the next six months -- I have to set my priorities. My lease is coming up at the end of December, so based on consultation with my family, with my wife and children, I withdraw my ambitions for the time being.
1020
Mrs Dombrowsky: I guess I do need to be clear, Mr Li. First you said that you had not sought the nomination for a political role provincially and then you said you were considering it. Yet the information I have is that you did look for the nomination. I guess, for the public record, if you would be able to be very clear: did you try to be a candidate in Scarborough-Agincourt?
Mr Li: I want to clarify -- I thought the first question you asked was "Have you ever ran as a candidate?" I never ran as a candidate provincially. I did mention to you that I ran federally in 1997. Coming back to your question, "Have you sought the nomination?" I have indicated that I'm interested to run in the Scarborough riding.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Has the candidate been nominated yet?
Mr Li: They've already been nominated.
Mrs Dombrowsky: And were you a part of that nomination?
Mr Li: No.
Mrs Dombrowsky: You were not.
Mr Li: No.
Mrs Dombrowsky: OK. You spoke about your interest, particularly relating to the health sector around hospitals and that you have had some previous volunteer involvement. Do you have an opinion about the SuperBuild initiative involving P3s?
Mr Li: As I mentioned, I have had little chance to read through this program. Quite frankly, I will be very honest: I don't know much about SuperBuild. All I know is that they primarily try to help to build more hospitals, more universities, improving sewer systems, or building highways, and looking for some kind of partnership with the private sector.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Mr Li, I guess I'm just a little surprised that someone who would come to this role with an experience in a hospital association -- and you have been provided with the same background that I have here in front of me, where I think there is a reasonably detailed accounting of the concept of P3s. I'm asking you, Mr Li, if you have an opinion. Do you think that this an appropriate way to pursue hospital infrastructure in the province? It is very controversial, and I really need to understand what your sense of it is.
Mr Li: I had the opportunity to visit China in 1998. Even though I look Chinese, I was not born in China; I was born in India and brought up in Sweden and in Scandinavia.
When I look at the way they have expanded -- you know, that country doesn't have money to create any expansion. They look to foreign investors. I reflected back, four years later when I went back to Shanghai. Everything has changed substantially with big development. If a country like China -- you know, the definition of communism is that you can't own anything, but now that's changing. They are trying to reflect the reality. Without the money, they won't be able to improve the standard of living with the greater population.
When I look back at Ontario here, at SuperBuild, looking for some areas for private partnerships, it may not be a bad idea. It doesn't mean that it works all the time. Some of the projects that I review here are pretty good.
The Chair: Your time has expired. I want to go to Mr Martin of the third party, please.
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): What I'd be interested in, having listened to your responses to the member of the official opposition, and you're indicating that you didn't know much about SuperBuild before you took this appointment and in considering the appointment, then what is it about SuperBuild that would make you want to play a role or participate if you didn't know much about it?
Mr Li: Because of my involvement in the community and also in the hospital, I see every year that we have difficulty raising money for the hospital. You can't depend on government alone. The last six years of my experience with raising money for the hospital makes me more aware that there's a need to build more hospital facilities so that waiting lines would be cut short.
With my appointment to SuperBuild, maybe I can give inside information to other board members about the hospital situation and also some of the community that I am especially involved with, the Chinese community that came from India -- we're trying to have some kind of facility to provide some of our seniors with a gathering place. We don't have the money to do that. They come here, their children go to work and they have no place to go. They stay alone. I'm thinking about some kind of recreation centre that can attract them, to make them feel more at home in Canada.
Mr Martin: So you're in support of public-private partnerships?
Mr Li: In some cases I think it worked out well. You have to look at each and every case before you can comment.
Mr Martin: This organization is the primary vehicle that the government uses to do its capital investment. In my view, it's not about raising money; it's about spending public money and spending it in a responsible and accountable way to meet some of the capital requirements out there in various communities for water, sewer, hospitals etc. It's a very important function. It has actually taken all of the money that used to be out there in various ministries and put it in one pot, so that it can be centrally distributed and spent across the province -- a really important undertaking by government.
I have a hard time understanding, first of all, why the government would want to appoint somebody who obviously has no knowledge or understanding of this and who hasn't made up their mind yet whether in fact we should be into public or private partnerships or if we should be building hospitals and our infrastructure across Ontario with public money so that it could be publicly accountable and those of us who have been elected can be held responsible. Does that not create a problem for you?
Mr Li: I don't think so because when I look at the board here, I think it's about time you had input from various communities. Today, according to the latest census, in Canada the Chinese community is the third largest after the English-speaking and the French-speaking, and yet look at Ontario: in every department I don't see any representation. To be very honest, I think it's about time the government looked into having people from visible minorities sitting on the board so that they can give some valuable advice to government.
That's the difficulty facing my own community: it's a struggle to arrive in a new country. It takes years and years to establish yourself. In the end, you always have difficulty moving up either in business or in the workplace. I think because of my involvement in various communities, it would be an advantage to have people like me who know the struggle of new Canadians involved in the community.
1030
Coming back to your question about whether I agree with a partnership with a private company, you have to look at cases sometimes. I just mentioned not long ago about when I visited China. When you don't have enough money to try to improve the standard of living of your own people, you have to look at alternative sources for joint ventures. So sometimes those alternative sources could be a private company that can come forward to have a partnership with government.
Mr Martin: I don't disagree with you that we should be making sure that all of the public organizations and bodies reflect the multiethnic and multicultural nature of the society we live in now in Ontario. I have no problem with that. I do, though, have a problem with appointing somebody to this very important board, which spends literally billions of dollars on capital investments in the province, who doesn't have a better understanding and knowledge and experience of this at the table except for the fact that you carry a Conservative card in your pocket. That shouldn't be the only qualification that we look at.
This organization has obviously become a very politically charged vehicle for the government. The glossy insert that the member of the official opposition mentioned was obviously partisan, just by way of the colours that were used, the self-congratulatory nature of the pictures of ministers in it, etc -- a very expensive, politically charged vehicle for the government. You can't drive anywhere any more across Ontario but you see great big signs on highways, "SuperBuild," with the Premier's picture and name on them. We're concerned here that the government is taking something that we've always done as public servants, to help build up the capital infrastructure of the province, and is now using it for its own political purposes. So I guess it concerns me.
I agree with you that we need to be appointing people of different ethnic origin to these bodies. But to make the actual choice based on the fact that you're a card-carrying member of their party and therefore probably more likely to support some of this very politically partisan expenditure -- in fact, those of us who represent communities know that that money is not being spent on capital projects; for example, the northern Ontario heritage fund. We found out last week, because they tabled their annual report, that they had $214 million sitting in that account at the end of fiscal year 2000-01. At the end of fiscal year 2001-02, they had $240 million sitting in that fund that isn't being spent out there. But you can be sure that they're putting out all these glossy documents and they are putting their pictures on various and sundry vehicles out there to capture as much political benefit as possible as we go forward.
The other question that I wanted to ask you was, given your background in financial investment and financial advice to people and your support of public-private partnerships, do you not see the potential here for conflict of interest for you in this?
Mr Li: I want to come back to the first one, when you said that because I'm a card-carrying member I may be biased or whatever. As I say, I always look case by case. I will just give you an example. In the year 2001 at a fundraising event for the Scarborough Hospital Foundation, I invited the Liberal leader, Mr Dalton McGuinty, to be our guest speaker. He was very surprised, being a Conservative, why I would have the courage to invite him. I said, "Because hospitals have nothing to do with politics. We will have the pleasure to have you this year as our guest speaker so that every political party has a chance to come and address us and they can see for themselves the need and the environment of the hospitals issue." So I'm not biased. Just because I'm a card-carrying member doesn't prevent me from inviting maybe even your honourable member to come to our fundraising event. Over the years, we have always invited different parties to come and take a look at what we do and also to help them understand the difficulties we are facing in the community in the area we are involved with.
I would like to conclude by saying that being a financial adviser, when you talk to clients you sometimes make tough choices, like when a client comes to me and says, "Do you think this is a good investment that I should go to?" I can only give my advice based on the client's situation, but the decision is still with the client.
So with the appointment on the SuperBuild, I may have some personal opinions. I may sometimes differ with other board members. Just because I'm a card-carrying member doesn't mean that I will always have the same position taken by other board members. I'm a very strong person. I know at the time, on an issue-by-issue basis, I would like to do what is best for the people of Ontario.
Mr Martin: Well, I --
The Chair: Sorry, Mr Martin. You won't believe this, but you're out of time. I hate to break the hearts of all the members of this committee, because we just start getting into good questions, as I know. I thank you very much for your questions.
You may step down, sir.
DOROTHY ANGEL
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Dorothy Angel, intended appointee as member, Council of the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario.
The Chair: Our next intended appointee is Dorothy Angel. She is an intended appointee for the position of Council of the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario. Please come forward. Welcome to the committee. I think you're aware that you have an opportunity to make an initial statement if you see fit, and then there will be questions from members of the committee.
Mrs Dorothy Angel: Good morning, Mr Chair and members of the standing committee. Thank you for this opportunity to appear before you concerning my intended appointment as a public member of the Council of the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario.
I have lived in Kitchener all my adult life with my husband, Tom, a recently retired accountant. We are the parents of three children: Wendy, a commercial artist; Siobhan, a bank manager; and Terri, a high school teacher who works with students in a Destination Employment program. We are also the proud grandparents of three girls and two boys.
I own and operate a small business, Angel Business Services, which has provided paralegal services to the legal community in Waterloo region for the last 11 years. Over the past 30 years, my work experience has been gained primarily in the areas of education and law.
In the past, I have instructed students at Conestoga College of Applied Arts and Technology and I have worked for Waterloo Management Education Centre, a business which offers educational programming to small and large employers across Canada.
In 1984, I returned to the University of Waterloo as a full-time mature student, and later to Wilfrid Laurier University to complete studies focusing on economics and business administration.
I was successfully elected as school board trustee in four successive municipal elections in Kitchener during the late 1980s and all of the 1990s. During that time, I chaired the Waterloo Catholic District School Board for two terms and chaired many committees. I worked closely with community and government leaders of all political backgrounds at the municipal, provincial and federal levels.
1040
Because I live and work in such a dynamic educational area in the province of Ontario, I am grateful to learn and benefit from working on committees with leaders in the public and Catholic school boards, the University of Waterloo, Wilfrid Laurier University and Conestoga College.
In June 2002, my appointment as a public council member at the College of Physiotherapists of Ontario expired after six exciting and challenging years of service in a self-regulated college in Ontario. I am hopeful that the experience I gained in those six years will give me a solid understanding of effective governance in yet another health regulatory college in Ontario.
I am particularly drawn to serving as a public member of council at the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario because of a personal family experience in a birth and near-death-threatening situation. My granddaughter, Madeleine, was born at Grand River Hospital in Kitchener in an extremely stressed state. Her Apgar reading was only one out of a possible 10, her vital signs were virtually nonexistent and she was not breathing. Immediately, a team of medical experts worked to keep Madeleine alive, and the respiratory therapist on the medical team was integral in the successful outcome of Madeleine's breathing. Immediately, a team accompanied Madeleine in her transfer by ambulance to the neonatal unit at McMaster University Hospital in Hamilton for a two-week stay. Part of that team was a respiratory therapist. I am happy to report that Madeleine is a healthy kindergarten student today.
Over the years, I have volunteered in many ways in our communities -- as a board member, worker, canvasser and fundraiser -- wherever I could give my time and skills. More recently, my interests lean toward supporting research efforts for multiple sclerosis, since my daughter Wendy was diagnosed with MS two years ago.
I am an active member of my church community, serving as chair of the finance committee, and our church is presently participating in a project with Habitat for Humanity by bringing together a large number of volunteers to build a family home, set for the second week of July this year.
At a very basic but very important level, I volunteer at my granddaughter's school one afternoon a week to assist in an all-star reading program for students with reading difficulties in grades 1, 2 and 3.
I have shared with you a thumbnail sketch of my past life experiences which I hope will assist you in your deliberations concerning my intended appointment to the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We'll begin with the official opposition.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): Good morning, Ms Angel. We are certainly always interested as to how the appointment comes about. You've made some reference to a previous position you held with the physiotherapy association or council. Can you tell us, in terms of your nomination to this, how it came about? Did you campaign to specifically be on this council of respiratory therapists?
Mrs Angel: I did not campaign specifically for this College of Respiratory Therapists, to serve on the council, but I did let my name stand if there was a position available with the health regulatory colleges. I do have a particular interest in health in the province of Ontario, and certainly our health care system is one of the best in the world. I was very happy to serve at the College of Physiotherapists of Ontario, and hopefully I can continue with the knowledge and skills I learned there and transfer that over to the intended appointment to council.
Mr Gravelle: So whom did you speak to in terms of the nomination? Was there a member of the Legislature who put your name forward in terms of the --
Mrs Angel: I did go through our local member's office and left my name there and requested that I would be interested in joining another health board regulatory college in Ontario.
Mr Gravelle: May I ask you who your local member was?
Mrs Angel: My local member was the Honourable Elizabeth Witmer.
Mr Gravelle: Have you had an association with Mrs Witmer in a political sense as well? Have you been associated with any political party in the past or present?
Mrs Angel: Yes, in the past I've been a member of the PC Party and currently I am a member of the local riding PC association. Concerning my association with the Honourable Elizabeth Witmer, I first met Mrs Witmer while she was a trustee at the public school board in my area, while I was a separate school board trustee. We had many connections at that point through the school board association.
Mr Gravelle: Have you ever been more actively involved in politics yourself as well? Have you previously run for any position?
Mrs Angel: Yes, many, many years ago, in 1987, I ran in the provincial election for the province of Ontario. I did run for the Progressive Conservative Party.
Mr Gravelle: Certainly there are many questions we could ask you related to educational issues in terms of your experience with that. Perhaps my colleague may want to ask you about that, but I just want to ask you about this specific council.
I presume you've done some research in terms of some of the issues related to respiratory therapy in the province. There has been some high degree of tension, I think is probably an accurate way to describe it, between the members of the profession and the council. Are you familiar with some of those issues that have been out there and have actually gone to mediation?
Mrs Angel: Yes, concerning the mediation, I do have some background information that was provided to me, but also I have searched the Web site for the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario to update myself on the most recent happenings in the mediation. I am familiar with a number of those items. I know that the mediation has been going on since 2001 and is nearing an end, I understand. Most of the issues on the table have been cleared up. I know that the parties are committed to making a resolution in that way.
Mr Gravelle: As you know, the whole issue of the implementation of the quality assurance program and the core competency examination was one that the therapists felt very strongly about. I know that's since been withdrawn.
One of that issues that interests me is the concerns that the public members of the council have treated with some rudeness, discourteous behaviour, stuff like that. Are you familiar with some of those issues and what they are talking about?
Mrs Angel: I am familiar only with what I have read and learned through the Web site. It's very unfortunate that any member of council, whether that person be public or a professional member would behave in such a way. I have been a professional person working for years in Ontario, and I would never behave that way. Certainly there must be measures put in place that people would have self-respect and dignity for other points of view and treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.
Mr Gravelle: In light of the personal experience that you've also told about us, related to your granddaughter, which is a nice story, ultimately, I would think that would shock you as well, because it seems to be a rather unusual thing to have that kind of a problem existing. I just wanted to know how familiar you were with some of the issues that made this happen.
Mrs Angel: Made the issue of --
Mr Gravelle: The problem being with the public members specifically, in terms of the respiratory therapists being in a position where they felt they were not being treated in a professional or respectful manner.
Mrs Angel: I cannot speak for those public members, obviously. I don't know all the issues would go on in the board meetings. I did not have privy to those conversations. Certainly the public members are an integral part of every council, and under the Regulated Health Professions Act that is one of the most endearing parts of that legislation, because it keeps the council open and transparent and provides some objectivity and accountability to the council. In my opinion, I would think that respiratory therapists, the professional members, would welcome the opinions and points of view of public members who are non-professionals in their field, not experts but certainly could bring a degree of quality, accountability and a point of view to the council.
1050
Mrs Dombrowsky: Good morning, Mrs Angel. You indicated that at the present time you have a role with your local Progressive Conservative riding association. What role would you have with that association at the present time?
Mrs Angel: The only role I have is as a member. I am not active at all.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I see. You're not a member of the executive.
Mrs Angel: No.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Your previous experience as a member of a regulatory college: can you remind me again of the college you were involved with?
Mrs Angel: The college that I was appointed to for six years was the College of Physiotherapists of Ontario.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Is there a testing mechanism within that college for its members?
Mrs Angel: Yes, there is a testing mechanism. There is an entry-to-practice exam and there are a couple of components. One is the multiple-choice competency kind of exam and the other is the OSCE, which is simulated scenarios of what might happen in a particular instance at a hospital.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Is that a part of the entrance or is that --
Mrs Angel: That is part of the entrance, yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Are you in favour of teacher testing?
Mrs Angel: Teacher testing being for physiotherapists?
Mrs Dombrowsky: No, for elementary and secondary school teachers in the form that it is being undertaken now.
Mr Frank Mazzilli (London-Fanshawe): On a point of order, Mr Chair: I believe we are dealing with the College of Respiratory Therapists. Certainly we can ask people's views about the stock market, I guess, if we wanted to. But I don't think there's any onus on the person before the committee to answer a question like that.
The Chair: Mr Mazzilli, I'll leave it up to the guest at the committee today whether she wishes to answer those questions. We try to keep it as flexible as possible. I'd like to leave it up to the guests. They can answer in any way they see fit. Thank you for your intervention.
Mr Mazzilli: That would be fair.
Mrs Angel: I really have no opinion on teacher testing, particularly because I have a daughter who is a teacher and I think that my opinions maybe should be kept to myself.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Would you have an opinion about testing for respiratory therapists?
Mrs Angel: Yes, I would have an opinion about testing for respiratory therapists. Currently I know that the core competency for testing has been abandoned at the College of Respiratory Therapists because the profession thought that the questions in the exam were far too elementary and far too entry-to-practice kinds of questions and really served little value in their real competencies. So I know that has been dropped.
However, I do know that there are other ways of testing, and I am familiar with testing by peer review or by interview, not unlike me here today. There are many other ways that you could test; it does not have to be in the written form or through OSCE. There are other ways of testing and finding out the competencies of respiratory therapists.
The Chair: The time has expired, Mrs Dombrowsky. I hate to break the news to you, but there we are.
Mr Gravelle: Are you sure?
The Chair: I am absolutely certain, Mr Gravelle. I know you always wonder because you're always into some interesting questions. I now move to Mr Martin.
Mr Martin: Maybe you've already answered this, but I need to hear it again. You're obviously a person of some significant experience and background in education, as a trustee and owner-operator of your own business, which probably keeps you quite busy. Why this particular college? What do you think you could bring or what is it that you want to bring to it that would be of such value that you would want to spend the time doing that?
Mrs Angel: Certainly I am very willing to spend the time at the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario because I have a strong commitment to community involvement. That is one of the strong ethics in my family background and something that I believe in. My husband and I have always inspired our children to do the same.
This community has been very good to our family and I would like to volunteer my services, and hopefully I can do that at the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario.
Also, the skills and knowledge I have learned at the College of Physiotherapists of Ontario are very important, I believe, in transferring over to the College of Respiratory Therapists. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we did have a very personal relationship with a respiratory therapist during the birth of our granddaughter, and I am forever grateful to that person for keeping my granddaughter alive. So I feel I could offer my services, and I would be very, very happy to do that and give my time to that.
My business is my own and I can choose to work as long as I wish or as few hours I choose. I would like to volunteer my services to the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario.
Mr Martin: Is there anything besides your own experience with the respiratory therapist for your daughter and the fact that you thought you might be able to bring some of what you learned at the College of Physiotherapists? Was there anything else, as you looked at this particular appointment, that you thought you could bring to that position?
Mrs Angel: Certainly in the current climate with the SARS outbreak here in Ontario, I admire our health care professionals in a way that I have never before. The College of Respiratory Therapists is very involved, and the local profession, in performing their services in the communities at large in Ontario, particularly in the greater Toronto area. I have a commitment to bring my skills and knowledge to that college, and you can be guaranteed that I will work hard and diligently to that end.
Mr Martin: Did you look at any other possible appointments when you went to see if there was something you could do?
Mrs Angel: Some other appointments were mentioned that may be available, but this is the one that was available when I was interested, so I let my name stand for this one.
The Chair: Now the government.
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): Morning, Dorothy.
Mrs Angel: Morning.
Mr Wettlaufer: I'm going to make it clear right from the outset that I've known Dorothy and her husband for 30 years. I worked with her husband 30 years ago at an insurance company. I have known them to be two of the most upstanding members of our community. I think I knew them both before I realized that they were interested in politics.
I want to say from the outset, Dorothy, that I have never heard a bad word uttered by anyone in our community about your performance in any of the various activities or community associations in which you have been interested. All I have ever heard were praise and thanks for your volunteer activities.
The years you served as a trustee on the board of education were marked with some big changes, and the board at that time met them all. I know from things I have heard that it was in part due to your leadership.
You preceded me as a director of the Catholic Family Counselling Centre, but again, all the comments I ever heard there when I was on the board were that you had done such a wonderful job.
It's very seldom, Chair, and members of the committee, that someone with Dorothy's qualifications and abilities comes before this committee, somebody who has been so involved in the community and yet hasn't made any enemies -- and she hasn't made any enemies.
I really want to take this opportunity to recommend her highly for this appointment. Thank you, Dorothy.
1100
Mr Wood: We'll waive the balance of our time.
The Chair: Thank you very much. You may step down. Thank you for being with us today.
Mrs Angel: Thank you, Mr Chair.
The Chair: We will now move into the appointments review. The first appointment is Joe Li, intended appointee as member, Ontario SuperBuild Corp board of directions.
Mr Wood: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Any discussion?
Mr Martin: In this intended appointment, I have some real difficulty in that Mr Li -- as I said in my questioning, this is a really important vehicle of this government used in a myriad of ways, primarily to promote their own political ends. But it also has the responsibility for making decisions about investments of capital dollars. All of the capital money that this government spends now flows through this very centrally connected and politically charged organization.
This intended appointee came before us today with little or no knowledge of the board or its operations, or why it operates or what any of the underlying fundamental principles were. I have no difficulty with the fact that he thinks -- and I believe we should appoint people of different ethnic backgrounds and origins to all kinds of boards and agencies of government across the province; I think that behooves us, and enriches us all. But to simply have that as the only qualification for his appointment, and he mentioned that on a number of occasions in his responses, is not enough for me, so I will not be supporting this appointment.
The other thing that concerns me about the appointment is his professional activities advising investors and his obvious support for public-private partnerships, and the access that he will have as a member of this board to a ton of information that he could -- and I'm not suggesting that he might -- conceivably share with potential clients or clients. It just sets up a potential for a conflict of interest that I don't think we should be taking that kind of risk on.
Also, there's not only the information but the contacts that he will have within the system itself as he, as a board member, gets to know those folks, gets to work with them and gets to go out across the province to talk to various and sundry responsible individuals involved in making these very lucrative and expensive investments.
I think there's conflict-of-interest potential all over the place here and I don't think Mr Li came particularly prepared this morning to answer some of the questions that we were wanting to put before him. So I just can't see how we can support this appointment this morning.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Sadly, I will be unable to support this intended appointee. I believe that the Ontario SuperBuild fund manages a significant amount of capital and oversees very important infrastructure investments across the province. I was most disappointed with Mr Li's lack of information and understanding. We're talking about a corporation that manages $15 billion worth of capital investments. While I appreciate the point that he would make in terms of ensuring that there is balanced representation on government agencies, boards and commissions -- balanced from the perspective of cultural diversity, and I wholeheartedly support that -- I think that representation must also bring with it some background, understanding and expertise in an area that manages a significantly large number of taxpayer dollars. I certainly did not get that assurance from the statements that were provided to me this morning by the appointee.
The Chair: The motion has been put forward by Mr Wood.
All in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.
The next intended appointee is Dorothy Angel, intended appointee as a member of the Council of the College of Respiratory Therapists of Ontario.
Mr Wood: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved concurrence. Any comments?
Mr Martin: Just to say that I will be supporting this appointment and to let it be known that I'm not letting the fact that she is a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party get in the way of my supporting this appointment, because that's often the accusation that's thrown across the floor here, that we will not support anybody of a Tory colour, and that's not the case. We look at each person who comes before us as to their qualifications and their suitability for particular appointments. It's interesting to note that most, if not all, of them are card-carrying Conservative members who come before us here. There seems to be a big push on, lately particularly, to have every living, breathing Conservative appointed to whatever agency, board or commission is out there. But in this instance, I think we have a good appointment, so I'll support that.
Mr Johnson: I just want to take exception to Mr Martin's comments, particularly with respect to the membership in a particular political party. I've sat on this committee where intended appointees from all three political parties have sat in that chair. It's his purview to pick out a few dozen appointees from the many thousands that the province appoints. He picks out the ones that are Conservative members and then sits there and complains about it. I just take grave exception to that.
The Chair: Your exception is noted, Mr Johnson.
No further comments? I will call the vote, then.
All in favour? Opposed? Motion carried.
Next week we're going to meet, I believe, at 10:30 because of the availability of members of the committee. It will be a 10:30 meeting next week. Thank you all for being with us and being as cheerful as ever.
Mr Mazzilli: Mr Chair, that's next week assuming there's no election.
The Chair: Assuming that there's no election called today. That was the latest rumour I'd heard.
The committee adjourned at 1107.
CONTENTS
Wednesday 4 June 2003
Subcommittee reports A-29
Intended appointments
A-29
Mr Joe Li A-29
Mrs Dorothy Angel A-33
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président
Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North / -Nord L)
Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines L)
Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington L)
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North / -Nord L)
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex PC)
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie ND)
Mr Frank Mazzilli (London-Fanshawe PC)
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre / -Centre PC)
Mr Bob Wood (London West / -Ouest PC)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms Anne Stokes
Staff / Personnel
Mr David Pond, research officer,
Research and Information Services