CONTENTS
Wednesday 30 April 1997
Intended appointment
Ms Muriel Parent
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président: Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt ND)
Mr John R. Baird (Nepean PC)
Mr RickBartolucci (Sudbury L)
Mrs BrendaElliott (Guelph PC)
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber PC)
Mr MichaelGravelle (Port Arthur L)
Mr Garry J. Guzzo (Ottawa-Rideau PC)
Mr BertJohnson (Perth PC)
Mr PeterKormos (Welland-Thorold ND)
Mr FloydLaughren (Nickel Belt ND)
Mr FrankMiclash (Kenora L)
Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand PC)
Mr TonySilipo (Dovercourt ND)
Mr R. GaryStewart (Peterborough PC)
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre PC)
Substitutions present /Membres remplaçants présents:
Mr GaryFox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /
Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
Mr TomFroese (St Catharines-Brock PC)
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
Mr BobWood (London South PC)
Clerk / Greffier: Mr Douglas Arnott
Staff / Personnel: Mr David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1003 in room 228.
INTENDED APPOINTMENT
The Chair (Mr Floyd Laughren): The standing committee will come to order. The first order of business is the subcommittee report dated last week, April 24. There were no selections made by any of the parties. Is it understood then that if that's the case, there's no need for a meeting next Wednesday? If there are no selections, I don't know why we would meet. All we need is a motion.
Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): So moved.
The Chair: It's been moved to accept the subcommittee report. Ready for the question? All in favour? That's carried. Thank you for that.
MURIEL PARENT
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Muriel Parent, intended appointee as member, Health Services Restructuring Commission.
The Chair: The one item has to do with the intended appointment of Muriel Parent to the Health Services Restructuring Commission. We welcome you to the committee this morning. The process is that you have an opportunity, if you wish, to make any opening comments and then to be asked any questions by members of the committee. The third party indicated to me that they would not be here this morning and encouraged us to just proceed. Did you wish to make any opening remarks?
Ms Muriel Parent: Monsieur le Président, membres du conseil de nomination, I'd like to tell you a little bit about myself. I am a graduate of Laurentian University, majoring in psychology. I am also a certified teacher, from McMaster University. I received my AMCTO accreditation. I am from a small town or village in northern Ontario, Val Rita, where I am the CEO of three family businesses.
Throughout more than two decades now I have been working on various committees and boards at various levels, be it local or district. Examples: A board of a home for the aged, children's aid societies, Community Living, hospital boards, as a director or in an executive position.
What I would be bringing to the commission, if you see fit to appoint me, would not be clinical expertise but what I would call people expertise, and by this I mean that I would be able to relate to the other commissioners the views of different stakeholders, the views of northern Ontario residents, the views of francophones and the views of women.
I was for many years reeve of two small communities up north, and by being reeve I've learned to listen, I've learned to analyse and I've learned that sometimes you have to compromise for the betterment of the two communities, which from time to time did not always agree.
If you see fit to appoint me to be a member of this commission, I would be very honoured and I would really, like I said before, give to the other members the point of view of a woman, a northerner and a francophone. Merci.
The Chair: Are we ready for the questions? Mr Baird?
Mr Baird: We would defer to the official opposition.
Mr Gravelle: Good morning, Ms Parent. The members of the government party will remember that we had a previous appointee to the restructuring commission come forward and the official opposition was concerned because we felt that there was not enough representation from small communities and from northern communities, so I'm very glad to see you here and I look forward to having a chance to ask you a few questions. Val Rita's near Hearst, is it not?
Ms Parent: It's 55 miles east of Hearst.
Mr Gravelle: Right. Near Kapuskasing as well then?
Ms Parent: Very near Kapuskasing.
Mr Gravelle: May I ask you how you came to have your name forwarded as an appointee to the restructuring commission? Did you seek it out yourself or did somebody approach you?
Ms Parent: I had heard about it. Somebody approached me, asking me if I'd like to give my name, and if so, to send my CV, which I did.
Mr Gravelle: What was it that made you decide to put your name forward for the Health Services Restructuring Commission? I'm curious as to your feelings about the commission. There are, as you know, very strong feelings about the commission itself, so I would love to have your thoughts. It's not going to be an easy appointment, nor an easy job. So why specifically this particular commission?
Ms Parent: Because I think that my professional, academic and community experiences will make me able to relate to every commissioner, as I previously said, the views and the worries of people from up north, of francophones and of women.
Mr Gravelle: Do you then agree that the restructuring commission is something that needed to be put in place? A commission that is officially, as at least is the government's position, at arm's length from the government itself, do you feel that a commission like this was needed?
Ms Parent: We are going through changing times. I know that Ontario has a very good health system, but it can be improved upon. We are also facing hard economic times and there is too much duplication right now in the health care system. What I would like to see, and this is what the commission is doing also, is trying to reinvest the money and put it where it really counts, which is on the front line, directly to the patients.
1010
Mr Gravelle: Ms Parent, how do you feel about the fact that while the restructuring commission is going through the province, and it's been doing so since last June -- and the first stop it made was in Thunder Bay, which is my home community -- at the same time the government is slashing hospital budgets, is taking money out of the hospitals at the same time that they're doing the restructuring process? There are many people, including myself, who feel that this is really a very negative way to do things, on the one hand to take money out of the hospitals and then to restructure.
Obviously the restructuring commission might make decisions that make the budget cuts seem very strange, but certainly it's very difficult to take money out of the hospitals -- $1.3 billion is the amount the minister wants to have taken out of the hospitals in three years -- at the same time they're trying to restructure. Does that not strike you as being really a strange way to go about the process? Should it be one or the other, or certainly the restructuring before the money gets taken out?
Ms Parent: I am under the impression right now that the commission is looking at exactly this problem that you just cited.
Mr Gravelle: The commission and Dr Sinclair have made some comments about that. They don't think it's a good idea as well. I believe they have been quoted as making those comments. Obviously I'm curious about yours as well, because if you are trying to restructure a system and you're taking out large chunks of money where staff are being laid off, it seems to me to be the wrong way to go about it and a way that can't work. That's why I'm curious about your opinion on it. Do you think it sounds like the wrong way to go, to try to do both at once?
Ms Parent: If I take, for example, my hospital in Kapuskasing, we went through the first couple of years of cuts. Mind you, our hospital is very well managed -- and that's not because I was a director on the executive -- so we could handle the cuts without cutting any of the services given the patients. This is what's really important to me, the services that we give to the patients. There are moneys to be saved elsewhere and I agree with this.
Now, as you're saying, hospitals are being hit on two sides at the same time, but again I must say that the commission is looking into this, taking this into account. We will be working on this. But you also have to appreciate that I just sat with the commission for half an hour and then I had this meeting with you.
Mr Gravelle: You mentioned in your opening remarks that you bring three different perspectives to the commission, and I think they are all useful. As a northerner, I know that in northwestern Ontario the smaller remote hospitals are doing some really remarkable work in terms of integrating a lot of the services they provide. Is that same thing happening in northeastern Ontario, sharing services, putting together an integrated health care system?
Ms Parent: We are sharing all the services we can, going towards an integrated health care system. Yes, we are.
Mr Gravelle: Do you feel there is a different perspective in the north, different health care needs in the north that need to be addressed, and if so, it would be great if you could tell us and certainly tell the government members what the differences are in northern Ontario as opposed to the larger communities in southern Ontario?
Ms Parent: I agree with what you said. It is different up north, first of all, because of the great distances that you have to travel if you want to go and see a specialist. If you're in Toronto or Ottawa, most of the time you just have to go across the street or around a corner. If I want to see a specialist, I have to drive at least 150 miles and then that hospital doesn't have all the specialists a person could need. The nearest one would be 300-some-odd miles, and I'm talking of just a one-way trip. It is different up north.
This is a view that I want to bring to the commission, so that when we do study small rural communities up north, or what I would call "out west" when we talk about Kenora or other communities like this, we have to look at it, to analyse it not using the same benchmarks as you would be using in Ottawa or in Toronto.
Mr Gravelle: If you are appointed to the commission -- and I think there's a pretty good chance you will be appointed today -- I'm not sure even how to phrase it, but are you willing to fight for those values, those things that matter to you? I'm not familiar with the precise workings of the commission. The commission has come into various communities and has made decisions that many of us disagree with.
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to keep the hospital open. What I believe is that as a francophone I want to
see all francophones being able to receive all health-related services, since
we're talking about health-related services, in French. I want to see that a
patient can go and meet with a doctor or a nurse or whoever will give him the
services he needs. I want him or her to be able to communicate with that
person in his or her mother tongue, to be able to speak French and to be able
to have the other person speak French to him or her also. This is very
important.
Mr Gravelle: So you think Montfort should be kept open?
Ms Parent: That is going to be seen.
Mr Gravelle: Can I ask you quickly too if you are a member of any political party, Ms Parent?
Ms Parent: Yes, I am.
Mr Gravelle: Can I ask you what that party is?
Ms Parent: I am a member right now of the federal PC Party.
Mr Gravelle: Any more time at all?
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Gravelle. Back to the government members.
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): Ms Parent, you answered my question when you first gave your preliminary speech. What I'm going to do is just point out here for people here your background. Your background is very impressive, as far as I'm concerned.
You're francophone. You're a mother of three daughters. You've studied sociology and psychology. You've had business experience -- economic development committee. You've been an executive director of a hospital. You've been on the welfare board, district family services, cancer society.
I accept that as being a good background in the position that you're applying for, so I'm not going to ask you any questions because you've answered most of my questions here and also in your preliminary presentation. Thank you. That's all my questions.
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth): I have a question and a comment. You started your instruction in 1962. Can I assume that you went to teachers' college at the University of Ottawa in 1961?
Ms Parent: I did, sir.
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Mr Bert Johnson: I congratulate you for that and I congratulate you for making use of that kind of training as well. The other thing I wanted to know is that Val Rita-Harty -- there are two sections of AMO from the north. I believe one is NOMA, the Northwestern Ontario Municipal Association. There's another one; I can't think of the name.
Ms Parent: FONOM, which is the Federation of Ontario Northern Municipalities.
Mr Bert Johnson: Was your municipality a member of AMO through one of those sections?
Ms Parent: Yes, we were when I was the reeve. They still are.
Mr Bert Johnson: Thanks very much. The only reason I'm bringing that up is that I came from a little place called Listowel and we were a member of OSUM in AMO, that section. Their convention is this weekend in Stratford. I just wanted to bring that up. Congratulations. Your background should suit many, many chores. You have one in front of you, I think.
Ms Parent: Thank you.
M. Baird : Merci, Madame Parent, pour votre présence ici aujourd'hui. J'apprécie que vous avez voyagé longtemps pour être prête pour cette réunion. Nous avons tous apprécié ça. Je suis heureux de voir dans votre CV toutes vos expériences dans votre communauté. Vous êtes membre du conseil de l'hôpital Sensenbrenner.
Maybe you could elaborate on what sort of experience you gained in that capacity. Obviously there are a good number of experiences you've had in your community and a whole host of other social service agencies. But as a member of the board of Sensenbrenner Hospital, could you perhaps enlighten us as to what background experience that would give you that you would find useful in your new position with the council.
Ms Parent: By being a member of the Sensenbrenner Hospital, I have learned, like I said previously, that we have a good health care system in Ontario, but it can be improved upon. If I take my hospital, for example, we just closed half of the acute care beds because there was no more use for them.
This is something that we do have to do: reassess the services that we're providing to our patients, and make sure the money is used more wisely, more accurately on front-line services, so that we can give to the people affordable services, accessible services and high-quality services. The experience that I got while I was a member of the Sensenbrenner Hospital for four years just reaffirms it.
The Chair: Any other questions or comments for Ms Parent? If not, Madame Parent, thank you very much for coming before the committee this morning and responding to the questions that were put to you. You're welcome to stay. The next item of business is to vote on your appointment. We could proceed directly to that.
Mr Baird: I move concurrence in the appointment of Muriel Parent to the Health Services Restructuring Commission.
Mr Gravelle: I want to say that I will be supporting Ms Parent's appointment to the Health Services Restructuring Commission for the reasons I stated earlier. We are, certainly in the opposition, keen to see representation from northern and rural and smaller communities. I think Ms Parent will give a perspective. I just want to state that I hope she does put forward some of the views I think need to be put forward in terms of northern women and the francophone perspective.
Also, I hope she will be looking at some of the problems the commission itself is dealing with, such as the dual issue of hospital budgets being cut while the restructuring is going on and also the fact that I think it's becoming very clear that some of the decisions being made by the commission in deadlines and timing are very unfair in terms of tight time lines. It's clear that a lot of the alternative programs and the community programs that need to be in place are not in place.
I hope she'll be conscious of that as well and will have that as one of her top priorities, because one of the concerns we have is that reality that decisions are being made in terms of time frames and yet the programs to replace the hospital care we have all come to expect are not necessarily in place and will not be in place. Dr Sinclair has been very clear about that. I hope she'll do that.
I wish her the best in a difficult situation. We did not like the formation of the restructuring commission, nor do we feel that the minister should be trying to avoid responsibility for it. Having said that, I wish her the best and hope she can bring a real positive point of view to the commission.
Mr Baird: I would just indicate that I'm pleased with the remarks of Mr Gravelle. Last week you did state your concern that there was too much of a large urban context to the commission's work and that they should be focusing on smaller communities. I don't think you can find many smaller communities than Val Rita in the province of Ontario.
I think the intended appointment would bring a tremendous experience and background, not only in community and social service agencies and the hospital board she served on, but as well would bring some experience in municipal government, as well as experience as a member of a small community of Francophones, and particularly northern Ontario. If we're going to get some good degree of knowledge around the commission's table, this would certainly bring that.
I note that she said proudly that she's a fighter. That's exactly what type of person they need on the commission. I congratulate you, Mr Gravelle, for your consistency.
The Chair: Are there any further questions or comments on the motion? Are you ready for the question?
Mr Baird: Could I ask for a recorded vote?
The Chair: Sure.
Ayes
Baird, Ford, Fox, Froese, Gravelle, Bert Johnson, Leadston, Bob Wood.
The Chair: It's a unanimous decision. I thank you for that. Ms Parent is confirmed. Madame Parent, you can see that you go with the best wishes and blessings of this committee. We wish you well.
That concludes the business for today.
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot): I'd like to take a moment. For the past nearly two years I've served on this agencies, boards and commissions standing committee. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'd like to acknowledge your leadership, Mr Chairman, and also, during your absence and illness, Mr Martin, for your sense of fairness and decorum in this committee.
To all the committee members I've served with, I've found that we've had some very healthy and challenging debates. But above all we selected, in my opinion, the people who are serving on various boards and commissions provincially. We have some exemplary individuals, men and women, very fine candidates who are going to serve this province well.
I'd also like to thank the professional staff who have served this committee, in particular our research assistant, David Pond, for an absolutely superb grasp of the issues. I look forward to reading his submissions on the history of some of the agencies we're dealing with. He has a superb grasp of knowledge and is a very talented individual.
Just in passing, I want to thank you for the experience. As you know, some of us are moving on to some other areas of responsibility. To the new players, you're going to enjoy this committee.
The Chair: I wasn't aware that you were moving on to other duties. Thank you very much. Your comments are most in order.
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): My feelings are likewise; I'm moving on too.
The Chair: You are too. Holy smokes. Some bells are breaking up this old gang of ours. We won't meet next week then. The next meeting will be May 14. We are adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1028.