CONTENTS
Tuesday 1 December 1998
Organization
STANDING COMMITTEE ON ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Chair / Président
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins (Quinte PC)
Mr Dave Boushy (Sarnia PC)
Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South / -Sud L)
Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold ND)
Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge PC)
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa PC)
Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming L)
Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins (Quinte PC)
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough PC)
Mr Bob Wood (London South / -Sud PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma ND)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms Tonia Grannum
Staff / Personnel
Mr Avrum Fenson, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1542 in room 228.
ORGANIZATION
The Chair (Mr Jerry J. Ouellette): I call this meeting to order. Actually, I believe the clock here is four minutes fast. I've tried to indulge the committee members, because of the number of changes we've had, with the various times to ensure that we could have as many members as possible here for the discussion of Bill 53.
Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge): The problem, as I understand it, is very simple. The House will hopefully rise on December 17. I say "hopefully," and I mean that sincerely. I would like to be out of here by December 18.
That means that to have hearings in clause-by-clause and have the bill printed in time for third reading before the House rises is most difficult. Really, the only way it can work is that we have one day of hearings on December 7 and one day of clause-by-clause on December 8, and that is the proposal I am making.
Interjection.
Mr Martiniuk: I can make a motion, but I just wanted the comment of the opposition.
The Chair: I think you move it and we open it up for discussion. Do you have any problem with that?
Mr Martiniuk: Then I move:
(1) That the standing committee on administration of justice meet on Monday, December 7, 1998, for the purpose of public hearings on Bill 53, An Act to amend the Law Society Act, and that on that day there be a 10-minute briefing by staff, and each opposition caucus would then have one 10-minute statement.
The hearing would proceed on that day. I understand we have a number of organizations and I am therefore suggesting 15 minutes per witness. We already have approximately eight. I'll continue on, and then we can discuss it.
(2) That the standing committee on administration of justice meet on Tuesday, December 8, 1998, for the purpose of clause-by-clause consideration of Bill 53.
(3) That each party may submit a list of potential witnesses to the Chair or clerk by Wednesday, December 2, 1998, by 4 pm. The Chair would choose witnesses on a rotational basis from those lists, as is the customary tradition of this committee; and that we can decide upon the deadline.
I am suggesting -- or I am moving -- that the deadline for amendments of all parties be 12 o'clock on Tuesday, December 8, which will give us the morning of that day to prepare the amendments resulting from the hearings the day before.
The Chair: Discussion?
Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): I have no objection to that proposal.
The Chair: Mr Wildman, just so you know, what has been suggested is that on Monday, December 7, there is a presentation and 10-minute responses from each of caucuses. Then after that time, we'll move to witnesses on Monday, December 7, for 15-minute presentations.
Has everybody received a list of the people? OK, everyone has received the list of the individuals who want to make presentations. Then -- I believe you came in at that point -- we're to move on to December 8 as well.
Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): Obviously, I am just subbing for our member, but just as a matter of interest, on this list you've misspelled "Carleton." There is an "e" between the "l" and the "t."
The Chair: I'll certainly look into that, Mr Wildman. We appreciate that.
Mr Wildman: How long are you anticipating that each of these presenters would have?
The Chair: Fifteen minutes was the recommended time.
Mr Martiniuk: We want to make sure we hear as many as possible. We would take them from the three lists of each party. I mean, we don't even have the law society on that list.
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Tonia Grannum): These are just people who have contacted us.
Mr Martiniuk: Yes, these are just people who have contacted us, so we have our witnesses in addition to that.
Mr Wildman: Frankly, we're not heavy about this, but what we would propose is 20 minutes each and that we have two days of hearings rather than one.
Mr Ramsay: I've just consulted with our House leader's staff, and that's the understanding that our House leader has also, that it was two days of hearings and one of clause-by-clause.
Mr Wildman: That's right. That's what we understood. We indicated to the government House leader -- and I recognize that the committee orders its own business; I'm not suggesting that the House leaders direct it. But we had indicated to the government House leader that we didn't want to prolong the debate on this matter and we wanted to assist in getting it done before Christmas, if possible, but we thought two days of hearings would be appropriate.
The Chair: I think what was suggested was that we have the Monday and the Tuesday for hearings as well, and then clause-by-clause after the hearings?
Mr Wildman: Yes, one day of clause-by-clause.
Mr Martiniuk: My friends pointed out that there were to have been two days, which would require clause-by-clause on the Wednesday if we're going to complete it, which will require a resolution of the House.
You're quite right. I would amend what I've said and suggest that we will have two days of hearings, Monday, December 7, 1998, and Tuesday, December 8, 1998, at the usual times, and that we will request that the House permit us to sit on Wednesday, Dec 9, 1998, for the clause-by-clause from 3:30 to 6 pm on that date; and that the witnesses be permitted 20 minutes each, rather than the 15 mentioned. Possibly, we can then change the deadline to 9 pm for filing amendments; that deadline would now be 9 pm on December 9.
Mr Wildman: Wildman's the name and compromise is the game.
Clerk of the Committee: Sorry. The deadline for amendments is when?
Mr Martiniuk: Sorry. It's at 9 am, not 9 pm, on Wednesday, December 9. This is all subject to the House passing the necessary unanimous consent resolution permitting us to meet on Wednesday from 3:30 to 6 for clause-by-clause.
Mr Wildman: And if we don't finish then, we can move a House resolution that the committee can sit on December 28.
Laughter.
Mr Ramsay: We did that in the late 1980s. Don't laugh.
Mr Wildman: We did that one time. It was terrible.
The Chair: Is there further discussion that needs to come forward from the members on the issue? No?
Mr Ramsay: That's agreed.
The Chair: What about advertising? It was a bit of an issue during the last one.
Mr Martiniuk: The parliamentary channel.
The Chair: Anything else?
Mr Martiniuk: It's an exclusive interest.
Mr Ramsay: This is, yes. This isn't a broad-interest bill.
The Chair: And that's acceptable with the committee members?
Mr Wildman: Yes.
Mr Ramsay: Yes. Tell Peter, though, eh?
Mr Wildman: He had the chance to be here.
The Chair: That has been mentioned in the past. I think the comment then came back that if the hound had not stopped to mark the tree, he would have caught the hare.
It was put in the form of a motion. Is it agreed upon? Agreed.
No further business of the committee? This committee is adjourned until Monday, December 7.
The committee adjourned at 1552.